Thread: Double tap and breaker question

Hello all. I feel pretty confident in the electrical department however, i cant say it's my strongest though. I am / was a GC by trade. Anyhow, I am wondering if one of you guys with an electrician's background can help me better identify without pulling a breaker out, which types may accept a double tap. I just would like to eliminate the possibility of an electrician calling me an idiot or something.
Thanks

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Brush up on breakers.

Make a short list.

Best

Ron

It's simple 98% of the time.
Square D breakers accept two wires of the same gauge, one on either side of the screw.
Cutler and Hammer - only certain, (the newer?) breakers, someone while chime in with the details. Not a popular brand here.

Originally Posted by Ron Bibler

Brush up on breakers.

Make a short list.

Best

Ron

Working on that...

Originally Posted by John Kogel

It's simple 98% of the time.
Square D breakers accept two wires of the same gauge, one on either side of the screw.
Cutler and Hammer - only certain, (the newer?) breakers, someone while chime in with the details. Not a popular brand here.

Hey john thanks,

Marc, we sent our little buddy Topo the talking mouse out to research that question for you. Topo. how's it going over there? Uh ...Topo? Hey, do mice sleep with their eyes open?

Waay funny... How did you write that one up?

Originally Posted by fritzkelly

Instead of a single hole, there's a little clip under the lug with a cupped area on each side of the lug to accept another wire. Maybe somebody has a picture.

Fantastic thanks...and yes a pic will help...

I just would like to eliminate the possibility of an electrician calling me an idiot or something.

MM: There is no legal way to prevent that. They all think of themselves as god's gift to humanity.

[QUOTE=fritzkelly;93904]there's a little clip under the lug with a cupped area on each side of the lug to accept another wire. /QUOTE] I believe someone here has referred to that clip as a pressure plate, which accepts a wire on each side of the screw.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

MM: There is no legal way to prevent that. They all think of themselves as god's gift to humanity.

You got it A.D., It's kinda funny how specialty contractor can so easily throw someone under the bus when they smell $$$. At which point, most everyone will then forget that your're an just the HI and not that specialist, and then they start calling you an idiot also.

It's kinda funny how specialty contractor can so easily throw someone under the bus when they smell $$$. At which point, most everyone will then forget that your're an just the HI and not that specialist, and then they start calling you an idiot also.

MM: If find the worst offenders to be, in order:

Engineers - Know-It-Alls
Electricians - Sparkys
Plumbers - Wrench-Slingers
Roofers - Rafter Monkeys

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

MM: There is no legal way to prevent that. They all think of themselves as god's gift to humanity.

Gee that sounds an awlful lot like some of the HI that post on this board also !!
Read the posts you'll see what I mean and who !

Originally Posted by ken horak

Gee that sounds an awlful lot like some of the HI that post on this board also !!
Read the posts you'll see what I mean and who !

KH: Merely demi-god status here, not full-blown.

Originally Posted by ken horak

Gee that sounds an awlful lot like some of the HI that post on this board also !!
Read the posts you'll see what I mean and who !

Ken,

I took your advice and went back and re-read your posts ... by gosh ... you are right!

Thank you for that insight into you.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

...
Roofers - Rafter Monkeys

Probably chimps. A common mistake.

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Probably chimps. A common mistake.

JA: It's my old contact lens script . . .

In my area, plumbers are affectionately referred to as: Turd-Hurders

An ever increasing number of roofers are not so affectionately referred to as: Illegal Immigrants

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Ken,

I took your advice and went back and re-read your posts ... by gosh ... you are right!

Thank you for that insight into you.

Jerry
Try reading a little closer to home !! You may be surprised

Originally Posted by ken horak

Jerry
Try reading a little closer to home !! You may be surprised

Ken,

I was standing there watching you poking your finger out and pointing it others when all of a sudden your finger jabbed a little too far and hit that mirror.

All I could do was chuckle quietly when you went OW!

Originally Posted by Marc M

Waay funny... How did you write that one up?

"Recommend all residents take electrical safety training".

Cutler + Hammer CH series breakers are rated for two wires. And Square D of course.

In older houses, pre-80's in this area, doorbell transformers were permitted by local authorities to be double-tapped with 15A lighting circuits. Do what you feel is best with those.

Can anyone supply a link that supports the use of double tapping a circuit breaker?

Originally Posted by Michael Garrity

Can anyone supply a link that supports the use of double tapping a circuit breaker?

From the NEC.
- 110.14 Electrical Connections.
- - Because of different characteristics of dissimilar metals, devices such as pressure terminal or pressure splicing connectors and soldering lugs shall be identified for the material of the conductor and shall be properly installed and used. Conductors of dissimilar metals shall not be intermixed in a terminal or splicing connector where physical contact occurs between dissimilar conductors (such as copper and aluminum, copper and copper-clad aluminum, or aluminum and copper-clad aluminum), unless the device is identified for the purpose and conditions of use. Materials such as solder, fluxes, inhibitors, and compounds, where employed, shall be suitable for the use and shall be of a type that will not adversely affect the conductors, installation, or equipment.
- - - FPN: Many terminations and equipment are marked with a tightening torque.
- - - (A) Terminals. Connection of conductors to terminal parts shall ensure a thoroughly good connection without damaging the conductors and shall be made by means of pressure connectors (including set-screw type), solder lugs, or splices to flexible leads. Connection by means of wire-binding screws or studs and nuts that have upturned lugs or the equivalent shall be permitted for 10 AWG or smaller conductors.
- - - - - Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified.

Thanks Jerry.Is a terminal a breaker?

Michael,

No, but a breaker has a terminal. That is where the conductor goes - in the terminal.

Jerry.but is it not also the starting point for the circuit. I wire =1circuit 2wires=2circuits?possible overload?

Originally Posted by Michael Garrity

Jerry.but is it not also the starting point for the circuit. I wire =1circuit 2wires=2circuits?possible overload?

No. The breaker will only allow so much current before tripping.
One wire, two or ten. The breaker doesn't care.
Two wires on the breaker is no different than one wire on the breaker going to a junction box and then splitting off to other areas.

The matter of two wires on a breaker is a listing issue. As long as the breaker is listed for it, as has already been stated, it is fine.
I must say, the whole "double tapping" thing is not nearly the big deal it is often made out to be. There is absolutely no safety hazard, but it IS a code violation in many instances.

Thanks Pete

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

.
I must say, the whole "double tapping" thing is not nearly the big deal it is often made out to be. There is absolutely no safety hazard, but it IS a code violation in many instances.

I agree...

So then, after reading the posts from all of the sparkys on this thread, I ascertain that (as I fully suspected, have never doubted, and have never been shy about stating on this forum) the majority think that just because something is a minimal code violation, it is not important, vis a vis multiple conductors under a terminal lug. Is this correct?

On a similar note, I have been on literally thousands of new constructions sites over the years. During those site visits, some of which I was supervising, I may have seen 10 electricians using torque screwdrivers while wiring a load center. But hey, just because the manufacturer and the code require the lugs to be torqued, it is just not an important thing to the self-important twits in the field. Right?

This roll-your-own, by-the-seat-of-the-pants, devil-may-care attitude is exactly what inspectors detest the most about contractors, but, and this is important, if it were not for their near-universal lackluster work habits, we would have fewer jobs than we do.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

So then, after reading the posts from all of the sparkys on this thread, I ascertain that (as I fully suspected, have never doubted, and have never been shy about stating on this forum) the majority think that just because something is a minimal code violation, it is not important, vis a vis multiple conductors under a terminal lug. Is this correct?

I never EVER said that. I said double tapping a breaker, nothing more. Maybe I needed to be clearer for the likes of you. I meant 15 and 20A breakers with #14 and #12.
Does this mean I do it. Absolutely not. I have no reason to. I just think H-I's make WAY more of a big deal about it than it really is.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

This roll-your-own, by-the-seat-of-the-pants, devil-may-care attitude is exactly what inspectors detest the most about contractors, but, and this is important, if it were not for their near-universal lackluster work habits, we would have fewer jobs than we do.

And your holier-than-thou, I know it all and will stick that in anyone's face who dares have a different opinion than me, attitude is what people detest about people like you. Not just home inspectors.

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

...There is absolutely no safety hazard, but it IS a code violation in many instances.

What is the reasoning behind the code violation if there is "absolutely no safety hazard"?

Originally Posted by Michael Garrity

Jerry.but is it not also the starting point for the circuit. I wire =1circuit 2wires=2circuits?possible overload?

Michael,

1 breaker = 1 circuit

1 breaker with 2 wires = 1 circuit

1 breaker with 1 wire to a wire nut with 5 wires = 1 circuit

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

The matter of two wires on a breaker is a listing issue. As long as the breaker is listed for it, as has already been stated, it is fine.

Agreed.

I must say, the whole "double tapping" thing is not nearly the big deal it is often made out to be. There is absolutely no safety hazard, but it IS a code violation in many instances.

"There is absolutely no safety hazard"

I disagree.

The REASON that more than one conductor in one terminal is not allowed is BECAUSE IT IS a safety hazard - the terminal is not rated for two conductors, thus one or both conductors can come loose in that terminal, and THAT is definitely a safety hazard.

I just think H-I's make WAY more of a big deal about it than it really is.

SP: They have to have something to do!

And your holier-than-thou, I know it all and will stick that in anyone's face who dares have a different opinion than me, attitude is what people detest about people like you. Not just home inspectors.

SP: You are merely jealous, , but thanks for the kind words.

Originally Posted by A.D. Miller

SP: You are merely jealous, , but thanks for the kind words.

Nice try (again) Mr. Miller.

If there is any felling I have about you it is not jealousy. In fact it is the opposite. I's more like pity.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

The REASON that more than one conductor in one terminal is not allowed is BECAUSE IT IS a safety hazard - the terminal is not rated for two conductors, thus one or both conductors can come loose in that terminal, and THAT is definitely a safety hazard.

OK. Then what exactly is the hazard?

Stapling romex six feet apart is code violation but it is not a hazard. Same scenario.

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

Nice try (again) Mr. Miller.

If there is any felling I have about you it is not jealousy. In fact it is the opposite. I's more like pity.

Mr. Petey: Your kindness overwhelms me, nearly as much as you lack of professional knowledge - which is near encyclopedic.

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

OK. Then what exactly is the hazard?

I stated it in my post - see below.

Stapling romex six feet apart is code violation but it is not a hazard. Same scenario.

Different scenario. That is not even as hazardous as installing NM cable into the panel and not having each in clamps.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

"There is absolutely no safety hazard"

I disagree.

The REASON that more than one conductor in one terminal is not allowed is BECAUSE IT IS a safety hazard - the terminal is not rated for two conductors, thus one or both conductors can come loose in that terminal, and THAT is definitely a safety hazard.

The hazard is that the two wires will heat and cool at different times and the wires may indeed become loose. Then you can have arcing that can cause damage inside the panel as well as a fire. What I can never understand is why each wire does not have it's own breaker! Most of the time the panels I inspect have room for more breakers. It just appears to be laziness or lack of funds to purchase another breaker! I like how when you look into a new construction panel all the wiring is bent at 90 degree angles and all the wires are on their own breakers(except for the occasional doorbell transformer). You ask the electrician why he wired the panel the way he did and he replies "Because that's how it should be done!" But when that same electrician gets a call to look at an older panel you pointed out for doubletaps, he comes in and starts throwing around the "damn home inspectors don't know their arse from a hole in the ground....", " this is acceptable as long as the wires are tightened down and the load is not too much for the breaker..."!!! I asked a client(presale inspection) when he called the electrician for the multiple doubletaps in his panel, and if the electrician stated it was okay, that if he were to hire him to put in a new service, would he reinstall the doubletaps. The electrician replied " No, you don't want that. I'll put every branch on it's own breaker." My client then said why is it okay to have doubletaps on my old service but not on my new service? The electrician did not have a reply and said he would add breakers and remove the doubletaps from the old service if that was his wish. Rural areas are the worst at having 3,4, sometimes five wires on one lug at a fuse panel. As long as they can get power to whatever they need energized, by God wrap it and tighten her down, boys!!! That outbuilding is a good 100 feet from the main house! If she burns mabe I can get a new outbuilding!!!

Originally Posted by Jody Humbert

The hazard is that the two wires will heat and cool at different times and the wires may indeed become loose. Then you can have arcing that can cause damage inside the panel as well as a fire. What I can never understand is why each wire does not have it's own breaker! Most of the time the panels I inspect have room for more breakers. It just appears to be laziness or lack of funds to purchase another breaker! I like how when you look into a new construction panel all the wiring is bent at 90 degree angles and all the wires are on their own breakers(except for the occasional doorbell transformer). You ask the electrician why he wired the panel the way he did and he replies "Because that's how it should be done!" But when that same electrician gets a call to look at an older panel you pointed out for doubletaps, he comes in and starts throwing around the "damn home inspectors don't know their arse from a hole in the ground....", " this is acceptable as long as the wires are tightened down and the load is not too much for the breaker..."!!! I asked a client(presale inspection) when he called the electrician for the multiple doubletaps in his panel, and if the electrician stated it was okay, that if he were to hire him to put in a new service, would he reinstall the doubletaps. The electrician replied " No, you don't want that. I'll put every branch on it's own breaker." My client then said why is it okay to have doubletaps on my old service but not on my new service? The electrician did not have a reply and said he would add breakers and remove the doubletaps from the old service if that was his wish. Rural areas are the worst at having 3,4, sometimes five wires on one lug at a fuse panel. As long as they can get power to whatever they need energized, by God wrap it and tighten her down, boys!!! That outbuilding is a good 100 feet from the main house! If she burns mabe I can get a new outbuilding!!!

JH: 10-4.

The REASON that more than one conductor in one terminal is not allowed is BECAUSE IT IS a safety hazard - the terminal is not rated for two conductors, thus one or both conductors can come loose in that terminal, and THAT is definitely a safety hazard.

Manufacturers are the people who determine how a product is listed. They submit the item to a testing lab along with a bunch of money. The product gets listed for specific items the manufacturer wants it tested for if it passes the tests the lab uses for the specific things the manufacturer wants tested. If a manufacturer doesn't submit a request to test for multiple wires the tests aren't done and consequently the item isn't listed for multiple wires. Simple as that.

Whether the wire can/will come loose in a particular termination is pure speculation.. I've been in the business for a while and have seen many more single wire terminations done incorrectly than multiple terminations go bad on a percentage basis.

I'm a by-the-book guy and I don't advocate improper installations in any circumstances. However, there are much worse things than double tapped breakers. They start with the drywallers using up the 2 inch screws left over from another job on 2 X 4 studs.......and progress to homeowners being allowed to buy any kind of electrical supplies with absolutely no requirement they know how to install them.

and progress to homeowners being allowed to buy any kind of electrical supplies with absolutely no requirement they know how to install them.

BK: I have long been an advocate of the police, instead of wasting their time writing tickets for minor traffic infractions, monitoring the parking lots of Home Depot and Lowes. They would then ask for proof of licensing from everyone coming out of the store with electrical, plumbing or HVAC supplies. Polygraphs would then be administered to ascertain the number of hours the perpetrators spent watching HGTV. Sentences would be based upon a formula such as:

No license + more than one episode of HGTV = 10 years of public service cleaning up trash along the roads while repeating the mantra, " I am not a contractor, I am not a contractor, I am not a contractor . . .

Maybe they should make a new show on DIY or HGTV...

Contractor Required - When DIY Idiots should have called.

A show that shows why it costs homeowners more because they screwed up doing DIY.
If the DIYer KNOWS what they are doing is one thing...
it's the ones that skip life-saftey that cause issues.
(Takes an hour to figure out how they did something before you can undo/fix it)

I just repaired a Well yesterday (5 year old construction) that used #14-2 on a 30 amp breaker, It ran to the pressure switch, to a jbox (someone doubled up the wires from the pressure switch the jbox?? ) which ran both a pressure pump and the submersible.

Needless to say... the submersible got older, started pulling more juice and melted the wires underground, dead short (8 ohms). And it blew/melted the terminals in the pressure switch.

The fix was obvious, 10-3 from the breaker down the line, replacing 'Uncle Franks' handiwork.

The result: The home owner, lost water for 3 days, and it cost twice as much as if they did it properly the first time. (All of Uncle Franks work/material was wasted and it cost extra time/labor to remove it all.)


As for double tapping..it's not a current or circuit issue.
The goal: Is each individual wire securely attached to the breaker.

An easy and fast way to fix it is to just put ONE wire to the breaker, and wirenut it to the two leads.
(junction in panel) Which is legal provided there is enough room in the panel.

Contractor Required - When DIY Idiots should have called.

KL: Good idea.

A similar show is already on one of the DIY channels call "Renovation Realities". It does show that not everything goes as smoothly as planned or gets finished on time or under budget.

AD Miller I like your post about the torque scrwdriver.
Ask a 100 electrician if they use them, 10 may answer yes.

I have electricain tell me its no uncommon to find loose connection in
inside meter socket. I talking about ones wire with aluminum conductors.
Do you you think torque the meter socket lugs would stop this?

Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison

AD Miller I like your post about the torque scrwdriver.
Ask a 100 electrician if they use them, 10 may answer yes.

I have electricain tell me its no uncommon to find loose connection in
inside meter socket. I talking about ones wire with aluminum conductors.
Do you you think torque the meter socket lugs would stop this?

RM: All of the manufacturers I am familiar with in this area have the torque specs on a label inside the meter enclosure in plain sight. That includes Milbank, Square-D, T&B Anchor, Durham, Landis and Gyr, Siemens, Murray, Cutler Hammer and Midwest.

But, like any other instructions, if not read and followed, they are useless.

Square D -type QO Breakers:15,20,30 amps. Of course not in my home I will stick with the one wire per breaker screw..............................Thanks anyway.

Speaking of double tap breakers. I did a new home warranty inspection for a neighbor of mine. Come to find out the DIY put in a hot tub but did not have any breaker expansion in the SEP. So he took the Dryer 30 amp out and replaced it with a 90 amp breaker to double tap the dryer(30) and the Spa(50) together. Simple mathematics right? I was glad I lived in the other side of the neighborhood(buffer zone).

Hi, All &

Greetings...

"Up here" - Canada (at least here on the West Coast), many Plumbers are often referred to (unaffectionately) as 'wood-butchers', for their skill in ruining structural framing !


CHEERS !

-Glenn Duxbury, CHI

The word stupid comes to mine when I see some this type of workmen-
ship.

"Dear, if the breaker keep tripping, why don't you just install a larger size".

"Behind in your mortgage payment?"

"Are you trying to start a fire"?"

"Lowes/Home Depot out of electrical panel?"

"Trust me, I a fireman, I know what I am do."

"By hiring a electrician/E.C. the job cost me less, so now I am one
car payment ahead."

I exhumed this thread because I found double-lugged Cutler-Hammer breakers with a similar design to the Square-D type. However, the Square-D has a squash plate under which the wires are attached, whereas the Cutler-Hammer does not.

So, my question is... Is this an incorrect or correct double-lug?

There were other things in this panel that require an electrical contractor to correct, so the point is essentially moot. I am still deferring for correction.

Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist

I exhumed this thread because I found double-lugged Cutler-Hammer breakers with a similar design to the Square-D type. However, the Square-D has a squash plate under which the wires are attached, whereas the Cutler-Hammer does not.

So, my question is... Is this an incorrect or correct double-lug?

There were other things in this panel that require an electrical contractor to correct, so the point is essentially moot. I am still deferring for correction.

GA: From the following publication which is regarded as Part 2 of the NEC:

19. Multiple Conductor Connectors — If the terminals of a circuit breaker are acceptable for use with multiple connections in one hole, and the breaker is intended for this type of use, the breaker is marked to indicate the proper multiple connections. This is uncommon for breakers—ordinarily, the terminals are suitable for only one wire per hole.

http://www.ulenvironment.com/global/...BreakersMG.pdf

So then, my take on it is: if it is listed and labeled for multiple conductors under the lug, then all is well. If not . . .

AD,

Thanks. The manufacturer's instructions were buried behind the neutral terminal and I was unable to effectively read it. The reason that I ask is that the terminals on these breakers is similar to those on the Square-D. In particular, take a look at the 3rd pic. There are little plastic wings that (kind of) guide the conductor to the terminal screw. This is not as clear as the squash plate on the Square-D breakers. There was a post in this thread that indicated that double-lugging was acceptable with specific Cutler-Hammer breakers.

Oh, well. Like I said, there was enough to defer on in this panel.

Originally Posted by Gunnar Alquist

AD,

Thanks. The manufacturer's instructions were buried behind the neutral terminal and I was unable to effectively read it. The reason that I ask is that the terminals on these breakers is similar to those on the Square-D. In particular, take a look at the 3rd pic. There are little plastic wings that (kind of) guide the conductor to the terminal screw. This is not as clear as the squash plate on the Square-D breakers. There was a post in this thread that indicated that double-lugging was acceptable with specific Cutler-Hammer breakers.

Oh, well. Like I said, there was enough to defer on in this panel.

Gunnar, only newer Cutler Hammer "CH" breakers can be doubled. They would have to have a flat bar that grabs both wires, not just a screw head, IMO.
So yes I think you probably called it out.

Originally Posted by John Kogel

Gunnar, only newer Cutler Hammer "CH" breakers can be doubled. They would have to have a flat bar that grabs both wires, not just a screw head, IMO.
So yes I think you probably called it out.

John,

Thanks.