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Thread: Electrical bond

  1. #1
    brianmiller's Avatar
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    Default Electrical bond

    I inspected a 1977 home today.

    I could not access the service equipment panel (blocked by bubba's metal storage shelf) and the panel in the garage (blocked by bubba's stacked boxes).

    I did not observed an electrical bond on the gas meter or water heater grounding this systems to the electrical grid.

    Would you guys write this up as a potential defect?

    brian

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Well, neither the gas meter or water heater are required to be bonded.

    The piping systems are required to be bonded, but it is unlikely that you'll see an external bond wire for the gas pipe. This bond usually comes from the circuit ground feeding an appliance.

    If the water service is a metallic pipe you'll probably see a bond wire near the meter or close to where the pipe enters, and a second clamp jumping the meter.
    If the house is fed by plastic, such as with a well, then the water bond could be anywhere accessible.


  3. #3
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    Well, neither the gas meter or water heater are required to be bonded.

    The piping systems are required to be bonded, but it is unlikely that you'll see an external bond wire for the gas pipe. This bond usually comes from the circuit ground feeding an appliance.

    If the water service is a metallic pipe you'll probably see a bond wire near the meter or close to where the pipe enters, and a second clamp jumping the meter.
    If the house is fed by plastic, such as with a well, then the water bond could be anywhere accessible.
    SP: This is what you are referring to:

    NEC 250.104(B):
    (B) Other Metal Piping. Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.122, using the rating of the circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

    Many of the AHJs in my area also require bonding jumpers for all of the metal vents on gas appliances, i.e. furnaces, water heaters, fireplaces, et al.

    Last edited by A.D. Miller; 08-12-2009 at 02:34 PM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Brian, you won't see the bonding wire to the gas line in our state. They don't do it here. Have you seen it at other houses? I've never seen it in my area.

    You should see either a bonding wire or ground wire for the copper water lines. If I don't see it, I write it up. No crawl space? Sometimes the ground wire is down there.

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    If you do not see it, that does not mean it is NOT there, nor does it mean it IS there, thus it is in your and your client's best interest to write it up as:

    Verify proper bonding of the interior metal water piping and the gas piping systems while the electrical contractor is on site making other repairs.

    As simple as that.

    Now, if those ARE bonded, you said to "verify" that they were and they were, and if those are NOT bonded, you said to "verify" that they were and they were not.

    You cannot go wrong either way.

    And because you said to do that while the electrical contractor is "on site making other repairs" there is no service call for that, only a little extra time, and if it only takes 5 minutes, no harm no foul , and if it takes them 2 hours to verify that, GOOD THING YOU TOLD THEM TO.

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    The gas meter must be bonded to the bonded neutral bar or groundind of the main panel and located not less that 3 feet away from the main panel. The bond should also connect to the cold water pipe. The water heater if electric must be grounded and if gas should have a bonding strap before the gas valve to the unit.

    Tony Dolce
    Meade Electric
    Phoenix electrician affordable repairs and installations electrical service in Phoenix


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Dolce View Post
    the main panel and located not less that 3 feet away from the main panel.
    See post on other thread explaining the difference between "service equipment" and "panels".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Dolce View Post
    The gas meter must be bonded to the bonded neutral bar or groundind of the main panel and located not less that 3 feet away from the main panel.
    I have never seen a gas meter bonded to anything.
    Is this common in your area?


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    I have never seen a gas meter bonded to anything.
    Is this common in your area?
    Peter,

    When he said "gas meter" I am presuming he meant "gas lines". It is possible I made an incorrect presumption.

    Also, not sure where the 3 feet came from either???

    From the 2008 NEC.
    - 250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel.
    - - (B) Other Metal Piping. Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with 250.122, using the rating of the circuit that is likely to energize the piping system(s). The equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that is likely to energize the piping shall be permitted to serve as the bonding means. The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
    - - - FPN: Bonding all piping and metal air ducts within the premises will provide additional safety.

    I believe he is thinking of 5 feet for metal water piping for GROUNDING instead of BONDING - which has no distance.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    I have never seen a gas meter bonded to anything.
    Is this common in your area?
    SP: It is not uncommon to see a gas meter bonded in my area. It is common, though certainly incorrect,to find the gas piping system in a house unbonded.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Everyone has addressed the gas pipe bonding issue, and as far as I can see the jury is still out on that one. Nobody has gone after the obvious, however:
    I could not access the service equipment panel (blocked by bubba's metal storage shelf) and the panel in the garage (blocked by bubba's stacked boxes).

    Code violation. (NEC 110.26)

    I'm still researching the gas thing- I've never seen a bonded gas meter around here either.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    SP: It is not uncommon to see a gas meter bonded in my area. It is common, though certainly incorrect,to find the gas piping system in a house unbonded.
    Aaron,

    If the meter is bonded (which you said was common), then the gas piping system in the house is also bonded (which you said was uncommon) because it is connected to the gas meter, so ... I'm not following you there?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Locurcio View Post
    Everyone has addressed the gas pipe bonding issue, and as far as I can see the jury is still out on that one. Nobody has gone after the obvious, however:
    I could not access the service equipment panel (blocked by bubba's metal storage shelf) and the panel in the garage (blocked by bubba's stacked boxes).

    Code violation. (NEC 110.26)

    I'm still researching the gas thing- I've never seen a bonded gas meter around here either.
    ML: Clarification is required here. What I often see is not the meter itself bonded, but the gas piping as it exits the meter.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aaron,

    If the meter is bonded (which you said was common), then the gas piping system in the house is also bonded (which you said was uncommon) because it is connected to the gas meter, so ... I'm not following you there?
    JP: You are not following me because:

    (1) Your Columbian blend has not yet taken effect.

    or

    (2) You did not read and comprehend my post

    or

    (3) Both, I fear.

    What I did not say was that I found the gas piping near the meter bonded and the gas piping not bonded in the same house. I not only did not say it, I did not come close to saying it.

    Now, relax. Take another sip, maybe another puff, and move smoothly through your Friday!


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    What I did not say was that I found the gas piping near the meter bonded and the gas piping not bonded in the same house. I not only did not say it, I did not come close to saying it.

    Aaron,

    Actually, what you said was that it was COMMON to find gas meter (the piping attached to the meter) bonded, AND, you said it was UNCOMMON to find the piping in the house bonded.

    Now, if the piping "in the house" is attached to the gas meter, and I suspect it is because otherwise there would not be any gas in those gas pipes then the gas pipes "in the house" are also bonded.

    I believe what may have meant to say was "you find the gas piping commonly bonded at the meter, not in the house".

    But, alas, that was not what you said.

    By the way, I don't drink that nasty brownish liquid which some people spike with sugar and some spike it with a whitish liquid, some people put both in there ... never liked that taste of that liquid stuff.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aaron,

    Actually, what you said was that it was COMMON to find gas meter (the piping attached to the meter) bonded, AND, you said it was UNCOMMON to find the piping in the house bonded.

    Now, if the piping "in the house" is attached to the gas meter, and I suspect it is because otherwise there would not be any gas in those gas pipes then the gas pipes "in the house" are also bonded.

    I believe what may have meant to say was "you find the gas piping commonly bonded at the meter, not in the house".

    But, alas, that was not what you said.

    By the way, I don't drink that nasty brownish liquid which some people spike with sugar and some spike it with a whitish liquid, some people put both in there ... never liked that taste of that liquid stuff.
    JP: OK then, chug down another Mountain Dew or whatever your caffeine vehicle of choice may be.

    I simply do not know how to communicate with you sometimes, I swear. Let me simplify this for you by recanting all previous statements and putting this into terms that even GWB library visitors would understand (not accusing you of being one of those, I assure you):

    I often find the gas piping systems in houses unbonded.

    It is not a rare occasion when I find the gas piping of a house bonded near the gas meter.

    I have never found a house in which the gas piping was not bonded and the gas pipe near the gas meter was bonded.

    Do you want the 64-crayon box or the bubble wand?


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    JP: OK then, chug down another Mountain Dew or whatever your caffeine vehicle of choice may be.

    I simply do not know how to communicate with you sometimes, I swear. Let me simplify this for you by recanting all previous statements and putting this into terms that even GWB library visitors would understand (not accusing you of being one of those, I assure you):

    I often find the gas piping systems in houses unbonded.

    It is not a rare occasion when I find the gas piping of a house bonded near the gas meter.

    I have never found a house in which the gas piping was not bonded and the gas pipe near the gas meter was bonded.

    Do you want the 64-crayon box or the bubble wand?
    Aaron,

    Much clearer now that you are not using two diametrically opposed words - common - and - uncommon - to describe the same conditions.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Aaron,

    Much clearer now that you are not using two diametrically opposed words - common - and - uncommon - to describe the same conditions.
    JP: It is always such a pleasure trying to write around you.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    JP: It is always such a pleasure trying to write around you.

    For someone with this as their trailer:

    "What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety he makes up in clarity." - A.D. Miller

    You frequently have to be guided into being plain spoken and saying what you mean.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  20. #20
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    For someone with this as their trailer:

    "What the plainspoken man lacks in subtlety he makes up in clarity." - A.D. Miller

    You frequently have to be guided into being plain spoken and saying what you mean.
    JP: By "frequently" do you mean "commonly", "usually", "often", or what?

    In any event, so do you . . . you just don't have sufficient chutzpah to use the byline.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    In any event, so do you . . . you just don't have sufficient chutzpah to use the byline.
    Aaron,

    Nope. It is because I know enough NOT TOO say I do that.

    I try to write plainly, but know that that my writing does not always end up as such, thus there is no reason to try to make others think I write that way by saying so.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  22. #22
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Nope. It is because I know enough NOT TOO say I do that.
    JP: So then, as you learn more and more you simply admit to less and less?

    I try to write plainly, but know that that my writing does not always end up as such
    JP: A definite point of agreement. No arguments there. Not from me!

    thus there is no reason to try to make others think I write that way by saying so.
    JP: You are a truly convoluted SOB!


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    JP: So then, as you learn more and more you simply admit to less and less?
    Note even close.

    You would be right only if you stated it this way: So then, as you learn more and more you simply know less and less?

    To that I would agree as the more I learn the more I understand I do not know, i.e., there are more "known unknowns" and undoubtedly more "unknown unknowns" ... as one of your heroes would have said (okay, so he is not one of your "heroes" ).

    JP: You are a truly convoluted SOB!
    Because I caught you in another one?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    So then, as you learn more and more you simply know less and less?
    JP: Yes, I know the old saw: "until you know everything about nothing". You are certainly approaching terminal velocity in that respect.

    Because I caught you in another one?
    JP: More wishful thinking.


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Electrical bond

    brainmiller Thread

    Jerry your post, 4th down. I like that you lent a hand on how to write it up.

    /S/ Robert


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