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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Manchester, Vermont
    Posts
    298

    Default So why can't I see all the Junction boxe in your attic

    Welll summer here, so early I go to do inspection inside the attic of house,
    newly remodel, the customer has a bid on. The home owner, nice guy tell
    me that when re-did the electric on the 2nd. floor, he install a lot of
    4"Sq. J-boxes. "okay".

    After open a scuttle hole to get inside the attic, I shine my flashlight, what do I see, an attic floor cover over with blown-in cellulus inulation.
    Not one J-box was visible. But! the home owner did take the time to mark their location. How you ask, by using flousecent orange suryer flagging tape, staple to roof or roof joist right above every single J-box.

    I came down the ladder and had nice take with the home owner. I told
    him Junction boxes are never to be cover, but with cellulous insulation I
    wasn't so sure. I told him at this time I could not approve of what he
    had done, but do some research and get right back to him.

    So how was your day.

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  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: So why can't I see all the Junction boxes in your attic

    From the 2008 NEC. (underlining and bold are mine)
    - 314.29 Boxes, Conduit Bodies, and Handhole Enclosures to Be Accessible.
    - - Boxes, conduit bodies, and handhole enclosures shall be installed so that the wiring contained in them can be rendered accessible without removing any part of the building or, in underground circuits, without excavating sidewalks, paving, earth, or other substance that is to be used to establish the finished grade.
    - - - Exception: Listed boxes and handhole enclosures shall be permitted where covered by gravel, light aggregate, or noncohesive granulated soil if their location is effectively identified and accessible for excavation.

    - Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    NY State
    Posts
    440

    Default Re: So why can't I see all the Junction boxe in your attic

    Buried under three feet of blown-in is still considered "accessible".

    Believe me, I hate this more than you guys, since most times I have to sit/lay/sweat there and work on them.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: So why can't I see all the Junction boxes in your attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    Buried under three feet of blown-in is still considered "accessible".

    Believe me, I hate this more than you guys, since most times I have to sit/lay/sweat there and work on them.
    Peter,

    Ever place I have been considers the box to be accessible in the attic *only if* is it located with reach while standing on a ladder at the attic access opening, or if there is a suitable walkway to it, such as required for servicing mechanical equipment.

    Those boxes back in the attic, walking over trusses are not considered as being "accessible".

    The above is based on the definitions:
    - Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other effective means.

    - Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.

    - Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.

    If it requires a ladder to reach, then it falls from "readily accessible" to "accessible", but it needs to be able to be reached from that ladder or have that walkway out to it.

    At least that is how we always did it where I was working and inspecting.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    NY State
    Posts
    440

    Default Re: So why can't I see all the Junction boxes in your attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    Ever place I have been considers the box to be accessible in the attic *only if* is it located with reach while standing on a ladder at the attic access opening, or if there is a suitable walkway to it, such as required for servicing mechanical equipment.
    If this were the case Jerry I would say you are/were in the slim minority. I have never heard of any place requiring j-boxes to be readily accessible.

    A box buried under a ton of insulation, or wedged into the corner of an attic is still considered "accessible". Boxes, as in splice or junction boxes, do NOT have to be "readily accessible", just as long as you can get to them.

    This quote applies here: "- Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building."


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,899

    Default Re: So why can't I see all the Junction boxe in your attic

    I wish that Jerry's definition of accessible were the case. It would certainly make it easier if you ever needed to do work up in the attic. However, the more commonly accepted definition is exactly how SP has described. If you can get to it it is accessible.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: So why can't I see all the Junction boxes in your attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    If this were the case Jerry I would say you are/were in the slim minority. I have never heard of any place requiring j-boxes to be readily accessible.
    Peter,

    I am sure that was a slip of the tongue there for you, but *I* did say "READILY" accessible. *I* just said "ACCESSIBLE".

    There is a BIG difference.

    "Accessible" mean they can use a ladder, just as I said.

    "Readily accessible" means they cannot even use a ladder.

    Your entire response was based on me having said "readily" accessible and I did not. Go back and read my post again.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    NY State
    Posts
    440

    Default Re: So why can't I see all the Junction boxes in your attic

    Jerry, this is what I was replying to:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    Ever place I have been considers the box to be accessible in the attic *only if* is it located with reach while standing on a ladder at the attic access opening, or if there is a suitable walkway to it, such as required for servicing mechanical equipment.

    Those boxes back in the attic, walking over trusses are not considered as being "accessible".
    .......
    If it requires a ladder to reach, then it falls from "readily accessible" to "accessible", but it needs to be able to be reached from that ladder or have that walkway out to it.
    It seemed you might be blurring the line between accessible and readily accessible. The statements above fall somewhere in the middle.

    A walkway or ease of accessibility do not enter into it in the description of "accessible". It can be (and often is) 30' away from the scuttle, across and through trusses, and buried under insulation, and still be considered accessible.
    I can show you the scars as proof.


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    745

    Default Re: So why can't I see all the Junction boxe in your attic

    Got to agree with Speedy Petey!


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: So why can't I see all the Junction boxes in your attic

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    Jerry, this is what I was replying to:It seemed you might be blurring the line between accessible and readily accessible.
    Nope.

    I am SPECIFICALLY differentiating between the two, and using one to help define the other.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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