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  1. #1
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    Default Is this ground connection OK?

    In pic1, the ground wire is clamped to the conduit where the SECs come in. In most cases, I would see the ground wire brought up to the neutral bus in this type of combination panel, as in pic 2.`If metal conduit is used there is sometimes a jumper to that as well. Does anyone think a repair is needed in picture 1?

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Photo 2 is correct, Photo 1 is incorrect.

    In Photo 2 the GEC (Grounding Electrode Conductor) comes up through the bottom, catches the grounding bushing which grounds the enclosure, and continues on to the neutral and bonds the neutral to ground.

    In Photo 1 the second step to the neutral is skipped, which leaves the neutral not being bonded to ground at the service equipment.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    In photo #1 the grounding wire should be attached to the neutral bar to bund it as well
    In photo #2 it appears to be alright as the grounding wire bonds both the case ground and the neutral bar.
    Note: It is not clear in the photos in either has a bonding screw on the neutral bar to the case. For a sub panel you would NOT want the bonding screw but on a main panel you would.
    Tony Dolce
    Meade Electric
    http://www.meadeelectric.biz/An_Electrical_Panel_For_You.html


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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Dolce View Post
    For a sub panel you would NOT want the bonding screw but on a main panel you would.
    Tony Dolce
    Meade Electric
    http://www.meadeelectric.biz/An_Elec...l_For_You.html
    Tony,

    Incorrect. Sort of, but you will learn the difference, and why.

    The neutral is NOT bonded (as you said) at ANY PANEL (regardless what prefix you want to put in front of the word "panel" it is still just a "panel").

    The neutral gets bonded to ground ONLY AT "service equipment".

    Yes, "service equipment" may have a "panel" section in that same enclosure, however, the neutral does not get bonded to ground in that enclosure *because there is a "panel" in the enclosure*, no, the neural is bonded to ground *only because that is "service equipment"* and no other reason.

    The NEC does not even have a term "main"panel, "sub"panel, etc., all "panels" are simply "panels", whether they are "load centers", "distribution panels", etc.,

    The NEC DOES, however, differentiate between "service equipment" and non-service equipment.

    By the way, welcome to the board.

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Dolce View Post
    Note: It is not clear in the photos in either has a bonding screw on the neutral bar to the case.
    Tony Dolce
    Meade Electric
    http://www.meadeelectric.biz/An_Electrical_Panel_For_You.html
    Thanks, Tom. These are Canadian XX combination panels, looking at the service entry cables, the brass screw on the left bonds the bus to the panel.

    Is the answer to my question, yes, repair is needed?


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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The neutral gets bonded to ground ONLY AT "service equipment".
    I called them combination panels so there would be no question that this is indeed service equipment.


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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    I called them combination panels so there would be no question that this is indeed service equipment.
    To me, a "combination panel" does not designate any part of it is "service equipment" as you called them "combination" "panels".

    Usually the word "combination" is used for when there is a combination enclosure with one side the meter and one side the service equipment.

    When you have service equipment and a panel as part of it, you do not have a "combination", you still have "service equipment".

    So when you said "combination panel" ... I had no idea what "combination" you were referring to. I thought, then discarded that thought, you may have been referring to a "split bus" panel and considered that to be a "combination" of some type.

    Nonetheless, though, I thought my first answer and post was pretty clear as to the answer, guess not?????

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Nonetheless, though, I thought my first answer and post was pretty clear as to the answer, guess not?????
    No. In my world, 'incorrect' does not always mean 'repair'. In your world I believe it does. No one has disagreed so far, so I'll say 'incorrect and needs repair'.


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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    No. In my world, 'incorrect' does not always mean 'repair'. In your world I believe it does. No one has disagreed so far, so I'll say 'incorrect and needs repair'.

    Are you saying that is something is "incorrect" it does NOT need to be repaired?

    Trying to figure out what "incorrect" means to you.

    To me, "incorrect" means it is "NOT correct" and if it is "NOT correct" then it needs to be corrected, which means a repair.

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Are you saying that is something is "incorrect" it does NOT need to be repaired?
    Yes, that is what I'm saying. An example of something incorrect - In an older home, both a white and a black branch circuit wires going to a double breaker on a 240 v heating circuit. The white wire should be painted black. There is no work to do in the panel, should I call for an electrician to paint the white wire? Does it need repair? Not in my world.


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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Yes, that is what I'm saying. An example of something incorrect - In an older home, both a white and a black branch circuit wires going to a double breaker on a 240 v heating circuit. The white wire should be painted black. There is no work to do in the panel, should I call for an electrician to paint the white wire? Does it need repair? Not in my world.

    Ah, I see the difference ... you need to take your shades off and let the sunlight in ...

    The difference is in your last four words.

    You said "Not in my world."

    I would say "Yes, that needs correction." and then add "But it will not get corrected."

    See, *YES, IT DOES NEED* "correction", and yes it should be written up as *it does need* correction, that is, after all, why you were hired.

    The issue as to whether or not it actually gets corrected (in real world sense) should not stop you from writing it up.

    This is the same thing: The roof has a leak in it, you can see the hole through it, however, there is no evidence of water actually getting through the hole and leaking inside. (I have seen many of those.) You KNOW that it will not be corrected simply because it is not leaking in and causing a problem, BUT ... you write it up in your reports anyway, right? (Of course you do.)

    So what is the difference between that and the white wire which will not be corrected? Absolutely nothing.

    So write them both up, home inspectors cannot MAKE anyone do anything, however, it is the home inspectors obligation to write it up and make their client aware of its existence.

    Agreed?

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Yes, I agree.


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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    John Kogel, that you get the name of the person/electrician who wired
    the first panel.


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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    The NEC, in article 250.92, prohibits using concentric or eccentric knockouts as a means through which a bonding connection is made. By this rule the panel in the first picture isn't grounded, only the conduit is.

    This could be a serious issue in the event of a fault and REQUIRES correction.


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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    The NEC, in article 250.92, prohibits using concentric or eccentric knockouts as a means through which a bonding connection is made. By this rule the panel in the first picture isn't grounded, only the conduit is.

    This could be a serious issue in the event of a fault and REQUIRES correction.
    Bill,

    You've got better eyes than I do, I zoomed it to 4x and saw the faint outline of the knock out showing at the upper left of that grounding busing, had not seen that before.

    "This could be a serious issue in the event of a fault and REQUIRES correction." You are correct.

    Which makes the second photo, which is also through a knock out, that much more difficult to correct.

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    If the neutral buss was visible there might be a simple way to correct - or a bonding screw might even be in place. Where the picture stops the guessing begins.

    I take some of that back. It appears the neutral buss runs under both SEC connections on the breaker and the branch circuit neutral busses are attached to both ends. I'd bet one of the screws (probably the brass one on the lower left) is the bonding screw. If so, the left panel would still have no bond to the conduit and no GEC connection and the right one would be OK.

    I'm not used to brass colored bonding screws in panels.

    Last edited by Bill Kriegh; 08-23-2009 at 07:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Jerry I wonder when you pick up on the 2nd. panel.

    Bill Kriegh

    There both Service Panels but are they both grounded and bonded?


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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    It looks like the neutral buss in both panels extends from the middle to the left and right of where the incoming hot service wires terminate. Both panels appear to have a brass screw that bonds the neutral to the panel.

    On the right hand panel the ground (one would assume the grounding electrode conductor - but we don't know) bonds the conduit and then extends to the neutral buss. If this is indeed a GEC and the brass screw is a bonding screw then the right panel is OK.

    The left panel has the same wire that we assume (lacking info to the contrary) is a GEC. But, it is attached to the conduit only and not to the panel. So, the conduit isn't bonded to the panel (violation) and the GEC isn't attached to the panel (violation) because of the concentric knockout the conduit mounts to and the rule against using a concentric knockout as a bonding connection.

    Clear?

    Without stirring up political issues it looks like the right is right and the left is wrong - - - at least in this case.

    Robert - - I have to think both panels are service equipment because of the SECs mentioned by the OP and the bonding screws present in both. If both are service equipment then both need to have the neutral bonded.

    Last edited by Bill Kriegh; 08-23-2009 at 07:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Bill,

    Good point on the brass screw. I dismissed it as a bonding screw because it was brass and not greenish color, but then, that is in Canada, so ...

    Also, as I recall, a short while back John said the neutrals and grounds in Canada were required to be in separate terminal bar buses, which makes bonding the neutral and the ground as shown somewhat contradictory.

    Sure wish I could read those labels, but they are two fuzzy as they were not the intended target of those photos.

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Main Bonding Jumper. For a grounded system, an unsplice main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the equipment grounding conductor and
    the service-equipment enclosure to the grounded conductor of the system
    within the service equipment or within the service conductor enclosure.

    Underlined by R.S.M.

    Bill K., is this what you mean when you said, "if both are service equip-
    ment then both need to have the neutral bonded."

    And you are aware in the left photo, that the grounding electrode con-
    ductor isn't shown grounding the neutral, it stop short. So there is no
    properly grounded neutral in the left photo.

    And for the neutral to become the service grounded conductor the grounding electrode conductor would had to extend all the way to, and be phyiscal connected to the neutral bus. An I right so far?

    Bill thanks for your input, I am still triy to properly read and I.D. what
    is shown in the photo, then write down what I see.


  21. #21
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    Wink Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Put an OHM meter and check for ground between neutral if the same you are ok if not fix it., Check voltage on each hot leg to neutral and then to the conduit, if voltage is the same, every thing is ok.


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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    Put an OHM meter and check for ground between neutral if the same you are ok if not fix it., Check voltage on each hot leg to neutral and then to the conduit, if voltage is the same, every thing is ok.
    Not quite, you have missed the points Bill brought up.

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Robert

    The neutral, or grounded conductor, is grounded by the utility at the transformer. So, it is a grounded conductor even though no ground is present at service equipment. The neutral (grounded conductor) is attached to the neutral buss in the panel enclosure.

    Grounding electrodes (ground rods, ufers, and metal water pipe underground) serve two purposes. One is to (hopefully) shunt voltage surges from lightning or utility problems to ground rather than through your household wiring. As a practical matter the service will function just fine without this connection until there is a problem.

    The other thing a grounding electrode does is keep the "ground to grounded conductor" potential from increasing as you get away from the transformer. Through the various properties of electricity and the wire, the farther you get away from the transformer the greater the voltage difference between the grounded conductor and the ground becomes, unless you ground the service end of the wire again.

    The connection from a grounding electrode to the service equipment is called a grounding electrode conductor (GEC). The GEC is attached to the service equipment at the neutral buss bar, or to a ground buss bar.

    The neutral buss bar is isolated from the panel enclosure. If a panel is used as service equipment then there is a bonding screw or strap that connects the panel enclosure to the neutral buss. If the GEC was tied to the ground buss bar the bonding screw also ties the grounded conductor and GEC together. The panel enclosure should be at ground potential. The idea here is that if you are the dunce standing outside in the rain in a couple of inches of water in your bare feet and touch the panel you don't get shocked.


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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    As a practical matter the service will function just fine without this connection until there is a problem.

    Through the various properties of electricity and the wire, the farther you get away from the transformer the greater the voltage difference between the grounded conductor and the ground becomes, unless you ground the service end of the wire again.

    then there is a bonding screw or strap that connects the panel enclosure to the neutral buss. If the GEC was tied to the ground buss bar the bonding screw also ties the grounded conductor and GEC together. The panel enclosure should be at ground potential.
    Thanks Bill and Jerry. Here's a few more pics. Yes they are the infamous Canadian Stab-loks, which is why I kept the pics small before.

    The brass screw bonds the neutral bus to the panel enclosure.

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Here's a few more pics.

    "Do not energize unless mains barrier is properly installed."

    Trying to figure out what that is referring to.

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    "Do not energize unless mains barrier is properly installed."

    Trying to figure out what that is referring to.
    There is a metal cover that fits around the service disconnect breaker and in at both sides to the back, sealing that portion of the panel from the rest. No branch circuit wires allowed in that area in Canada.


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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    There is a metal cover that fits around the service disconnect breaker and in at both sides to the back, sealing that portion of the panel from the rest. No branch circuit wires allowed in that area in Canada.
    John,

    Do you have a photo of one of those installed?

    Do you write them up when not installed?

    Do those come off with the dead front cover, or is it "missing" (i.e., "not installed") in that photo?

    Down here in the states, the service conductors *to the meter* must be separated from everything else by a grounded metal divider which is listed and labeled and part of the combination meter socket/service equipment enclosure (which is when you have that condition).

    The "service entrance conductors" from the meter to the service equipment main disconnect are not required to have that separation.

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    John,

    Do you have a photo of one of those installed?Yes, but time is short at the moment.

    Do you write them up when not installed?They are always installed in our country.

    Do those come off with the dead front cover, in that photo?Yes for that brand, it is integral with the lower section of panel.
    Down here in the states, the service conductors *to the meter* must be separated from everything else by a grounded metal divider which is listed and labeled and part of the combination meter socket/service equipment enclosure (which is when you have that condition).We do dat too. Also, we never see disconnects outside, just the meter can.

    The "service entrance conductors" from the meter to the service equipment main disconnect are not required to have that separation. In the USA
    I found a pic or two. The last pic was taken in Canada not Cuba.

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    Last edited by John Kogel; 08-26-2009 at 09:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    John K. sure it Cuba, look at the 4th picture, that car is a dead give away.

    I like that the breaker handles have different color, which in my opinion,
    opt. to mean breakers of different ampere rating.


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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    John,

    Thank you for those photos ... interesting on that requirement.

    I can tell that is not Cuba ... the buildings are not falling down as the buildings in Cuba are, besides, that car has its original engine and in Cuba it would have an old International Harvester 4 banger shoe horned into it for lack of parts for the original engine.

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    John,

    Thank you for those photos ... interesting on that requirement.

    I can tell that is not Cuba ... the buildings are not falling down as the buildings in Cuba are, besides, that car has its original engine and in Cuba it would have an old International Harvester 4 banger shoe horned into it for lack of parts for the original engine.
    As long as it starts with a crank, it's a keeper.

    I had two funny panels today, a 12 yr old and a 15, both laid on their sides for no explicable reason. If the deadfront is one piece, they add an inner shield like the C+H in the first pic. The bad boy Federal in the second pic has a plastic section to the barrier. This prevents arc welding when you don't want to arc weld.

    Notice the main disconnect, "on" is down????

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Notice the main disconnect, "on" is down????

    Along with half the other breakers.

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    John K.

    Did your inspection take place on Vancover Island or on main land Canada?

    The wireman did a neat job wiring the panel, picture in the photo, which is
    shown to the right.

    Could the wireman/electrician had installed the Panel Main right-side up, was there enough room, at that location?

    One problem I see, is the panel door, if indeed the panel came with a access door. In one direction, up, how would keep the door open, while turning on or off the circuit breakers. Other direction, down, the door with weight my take you by suprise and hit you. But no door, then no problem, many of the six breaker panel installed here in the U.S. come without doors.

    We also have 3-way switches were up at times can be on, and other times, the down position can be on.

    I confess, I never see a Canada electrical code book. But if there is one,
    is there anything written in it, the prohibits this practice of mounting electrical panels on there side.

    If not, then all I see is prehaps the wireman/electrician installer should had
    label all the circuit breakers clearly, to show their on position and their off
    position. Using something that glows in the dark, preferable. (humor)

    John this place you inspected, would there had been a permit taken out,
    follow by an inspection?

    I am intrigue by what starting to look like a common practice. Electrical
    panel installed on there side.


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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    John K.

    Did your inspection take place on Vancover Island or on main land Canada?

    The wireman did a neat job wiring the panel, picture in the photo, which is
    shown to the right.

    Could the wireman/electrician had installed the Panel Main right-side up, was there enough room, at that location?

    One problem I see, is the panel door, if indeed the panel came with a access door. In one direction, up, how would keep the door open, while turning on or off the circuit breakers. Other direction, down, the door with weight my take you by suprise and hit you. But no door, then no problem, many of the six breaker panel installed here in the U.S. come without doors.

    We also have 3-way switches were up at times can be on, and other times, the down position can be on.

    I confess, I never see a Canada electrical code book. But if there is one,
    is there anything written in it, the prohibits this practice of mounting electrical panels on there side.

    If not, then all I see is prehaps the wireman/electrician installer should had
    label all the circuit breakers clearly, to show their on position and their off
    position. Using something that glows in the dark, preferable. (humor)

    John this place you inspected, would there had been a permit taken out,
    follow by an inspection?

    I am intrigue by what starting to look like a common practice. Electrical
    panel installed on there side.
    Robert, we have a civilized society with code rules just like the US.
    Sideways panels are not prohibited, but we all agree it looks unprofessional, and can lead to confusion, so most electrical inspectors, which we have here, would discourage the practice. There is a certain amount of rubber-stamping without inspecting, just like the US? In both these houses, there was no logical reason for it.


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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    John K. many thanks for setting the record straight, on, side way installed
    electrical panels.

    Now I hope you don't mined, if ask the the following:

    Do you work for sellers?

    Do you work for buyers?

    Last edited by Robert Mattison; 08-30-2009 at 05:07 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    John K. many thanks for setting the record straight, on, side way installed
    electrical panels.

    Now I hope you don't mined, if ask the the following:

    Do you work for sellers?

    Do you work for buyers?
    Buyers, or occasionally a seller asks for a pre-listing inspection.


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    Default Re: Is this ground connection OK?

    John K.

    Thanks for your reply to my last post.


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