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  1. #1
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    Default 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    1956 with approx. 3150 sq. ft on a 100 Amp panel. The panel is loaded with double taps and all of the breakers are 20 amp. Looking at the pictures, can you identify all what wrong. This is not a quiz, just checking myself for the write up.

    Jim Murphy

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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Quote Originally Posted by JIM MURPHY View Post
    This is not a quiz, just checking myself for the write up.

    Jim,

    Tell us what you found and we will add to your list, saves us from having to say all the things you found all over again.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Jerry, what I see is a lot of double tapping which is overloading the circuit. It appears that not only are there double taps to the breakers but with the main supply and bus panel. What you did not see was the fact that nothing was not labeled in the box and this is a two wire system without grounds. Of course, there are no GFIs. The panel looks to be way overloaded and to me a real safety concern as well as a fire concern.

    Still learning!

    Jim Murphy


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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Quote Originally Posted by JIM MURPHY View Post
    what I see is a lot of double tapping which is overloading the circuit.
    Double tapping does NOT overload the circuit ... unless the breakers trip.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    First, being as that is not service equipment, the grounds are not allowed to be in with the neutrals, the neutral is required to be isolated from ground.

    There is a bare cable going to the neutral terminal bar near the bottom of it, that is not allowed to be there either, and, if that is part of the feeders TO that panel (you have no overall photo of the panel) from the service equipment ... 1) is there an insulated neutral feeder; 2) is that the feeder ground?

    Yes, there is double tapping (I always call it multiple tapping as sometimes you will find 3 conductors and that is not double tapping - and there looks to be 3 red conductors there) to that breaker - wait a minute ... that looks like a main breaker??? (do you have an overall photo of the panel?) ... ???

    I see that bare conductor going up past that breaker ...

    Do the older conductors off the multiple tapped breaker go TO or FROM that breaker? The appear to go up to the upper left where the bare conductor joins them. Where does that cable GO TO or COME FROM???

    I can't tell for sure in the photo, but those top breaker may not be multiple tapped, they may have the double terminal plate under the screw which allows for that (but the flash washed out the details of the terminal and I can't see the terminals clearly enough to know).

    Do you have more photos of the panel, and a couple of overall view photos?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Jerry,

    I have to go back to the house to do a mold test on some registers. I will get the entire panel

    Jim


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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Quote Originally Posted by JIM MURPHY View Post
    I have to go back to the house to do a mold test on some registers.

    Why?

    Why do you have to do a mold test?

    What will it tell you of any significance?

    That what you think is "mold" actually is "mold"? And then what?

    What benefit is that knowledge to you or your client and what purpose does it serve? Oh, because it will tell you *what type of mold* is there? Why does that matter?

    Just trying to figure out why you are doing a mold test.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Jerry, here is the whole panel

    Jim

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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Jim,

    This is what I see, or think I am seeing:

    That is the "service equipment" and not just a "panel", which means the grounds and neutrals are allowed to be in the same neutral/ground terminal bus (just not in the same holes).

    The service entrance conductors are (I am presuming) the larger newer cable coming in through the top just to the right of that center connector (but I don't see any clamp fitting over that cable).

    I am presuming that is the service entrance conductors as it is the larger of the conductors attached to that side of the main, goes neutral (white) to the neutral/ground terminal bar, and ground (green) to the neutral/ground terminal bar too.

    If that is the service entrance, then the old one coming in at the top left is a problem as that cable does not have an insulated neutral (although that could be a bare ground), either way, though, that is fed from the line side of the main disconnect and has no overcurrent protection on it.

    Likewise, the other conductors on the line side of the main are also a problem, and to complicate the problem those conductors are not in matching pairs, which indicates things are even more screwy than what it appears.

    There are other things too, but there is also the fact that the enclosure is set back (not flush with) the COMBUSTIBLE WOOD wall and the enclosure is required to be flush with, or project out beyond, the combustible wall.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Jerry, thanks so much for all of your answers. i quess one day I will be able to help someone with the knowledge I acquired.

    The mold test was requested by my client because they were worried about the toxicity if any with it. They have a four year old child. If it was not lethal then we were going to determine if the ducts need cleaning.

    Here are a couple pictures.

    Jim

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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Quote Originally Posted by JIM MURPHY View Post
    The mold test was requested by my client because they were worried about the toxicity if any with it. They have a four year old child. If it was not lethal then we were going to determine if the ducts need cleaning.
    Jim,

    You are helping your client gather useless information which will really mean absolutely nothing to them. You should also drop the "toxic mold" junk science words and deal in real science words, such as ...

    Your client should have their child TESTED for whatever it is their child is allergic to before doing anything else. You may show that so-called "toxic" mold and their child MAY NOT BE ALLERGIC TO IT, meaning ... IT IS NOT "TOXIC". and, your results may come back as some regular run of the mill mold and THEIR CHILD COULD BE DEATHLY ALLERGIC TO IT ... and then you have given your client either a false scare or a false "feel good" feeling which ends up with a dead child.


    You need to review this site, have your client review it too: Mould Testing, Ponzi Schemes and Snake Oil

    I'll see if I can get Caoimhín P. Connell to reply to this.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Jerry,

    Thank you for your response. My client is buying the house not occupying it at this point. Their concern was the black mold in the registers. Should it not be tested? How would you conclude this? Do not worry about it?
    I see the points about mold, how do you answer them if it is indeed there or indications that it is there. The pictures show the presence of it.

    Jim


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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Quote Originally Posted by JIM MURPHY View Post
    how do you answer them if it is indeed there or indications that it is there. The pictures show the presence of it.

    Jim,

    "The pictures show the presence of it.

    Okay, you know it is there, so why test it? You ALREADY KNOW it is mold?

    And "mold" is everywhere.

    It is not the so-called "mold" which is at issue, it is simply ... is THE PERSON allergic to WHAT - and molds are just a sampling of what they would be tested for.

    Here is an example as some things a person could be allergic to: chocolate, tomatoes, wheat, corn, milk, eggs, dust mites, pine nuts, tomato plants, pine trees, pine sawdust, oak trees, oak sawdust, magnolia trees, golden rod, ragweed, almost every type of pollen, feathers, ... and that is just a sampling of what I know I am allergic to. Molds? Probably, but I've never been tested for them, however, I was in a house which had A LOT of mold growing on the walls on the inside of the drywall between the studs, my eyes were watering, it was hard to breathe, yet the seller could not tell anything, and when I explained the mold to my client, and showed them, they could not tell anything, and thus DID NOT CARE, and ... that was back in the 1990 before anyone ever heard of "mold is gold".

    Trust me, there IS MOLD EVERYWHERE, some people are allergic to it, most are not, so the mold IS NOT THE PROBLEM, so what your client needs to do FIRST is find out what their child is allergic to, chances are it is something else, probably MANY THINGS else.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  14. #14
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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    I went to the indoor Icebox to get an orange one time.. but by the time i got to the icebox the orange was not orange It was all covered with a green fuzz like stuff... So I ponder for a bit...hey this orange is all covered with?

    Certified mould expert

    Best

    Ron

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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Ron, if you have an outdoor icebox, does that make you a redneck? Or did Billy drop it off last time he was in town.
    My mothers "frigidaire" as she calls it has alot of those furry little creatures in it that I have to throw out whenever I visit.
    Mabey she's a redneck.


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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    I make things easy on myself when a panel has multiple issues like this..........."multiple unsafe and improper wiring configurations noted in service panel - have entire service panel serviced by a professional electrician and all repairs made as needed"


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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    I make things easy on myself when a panel has multiple issues like this..........."multiple unsafe and improper wiring configurations noted in service panel - have entire service panel serviced by a professional electrician and all repairs made as needed"

    Nick,

    The problem I see with that statement is this part "and all repairs made as needed" ... who cares what THAT electricians thinks "are needed", so (in my opinion, anyway) that last part should read "and all code issues and code violations corrected".

    Or something to that affect.

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  18. #18

    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Hello Gents!

    I just got tagged about this thread.

    Jim: Six weeks ago a “mould consultant” (with alphabet soup CMI, CMP, CMPT, CEMR after his name) used the same rationale you expressed and he too performed a mould test. Mr. Alphabet soup then issued a one page “report” of his "test" complete with a 18 page laboratory report from EMLab P&K. As a result, litigation ensued, and I was hired to write a rebuttal. My letter, issued yesterday, was 49 pages explaining why the guy who collected the sample was a complete idiot to not know what was in the P&K report, and why he can't use their interpretation, and why he ignored the entire body of science and collected the sample in the first place. By Monday morning, he’s going to not like me and he's goig to find out that his business and livelyhood are now in jeopardy.

    Jim: There is not one single legitimate organization out there that supports collecting these samples, and most of them, such as the EPA, CDC, ACGIH, WHO, AIHA, New York City, Colorado Department of Health and Environment, State of California, State of Illinois … and on and on… ALL recommend AGAINST collecting such samples since the samples do exclusively three things:

    1. Provide useless results
    2. Rip off the homeowner
    3. Nothing else

    Let’s look at your statements:

    The mold test was requested by my client because they were worried about the toxicity if any with it.

    Guess what? There is NO TEST whatsoever that will answer that question. There is no test, there is no analysis and it is conceptually and physically impossible for you to perform the test as stated. Your “test” will only identify (with a 50% probability of being wrong) the genus, and if you are really lucky, maybe the species. But since there is no such thing as “toxic mould” your test won’t answer that question. Furthermore, an allergic response is exclusively a personal thing, and so your “test” won’t determine if the kid is allergic to the mould(s) or not. Finally, ALL registers will test positive for mould, so how are you going interpret your results?

    If it was not lethal then we were going to determine if the ducts need cleaning.

    Jim, Friend, that’s the kind of talk that guarantees that I will have enough money to take my yearly vacation to Mexico. Let’s just hope that it’s not at your expense. Lethal? There’s a lethal mould out there? Really? Then present an international paper and identify this brand new unknown mould, and you will be up for a Nobel Prize in medicine, toxicology AND microbiology since there is no such mould known to medical, microbiological or toxicological science.

    Umm… duct cleaning? You are aware, of course, that legitimate studies show that duct cleaning DECREASES indoor air quality and INCREASES exposure to airborne moulds, right? Of course you are. Y’all are a smart bunch on this forum.

    Their concern was the black mold in the registers.

    Apparently, you already know two things: 1) it’s black and 2) it’s mould. Since you already know those things, what are you going to test? Also, why stop there, why not also send the sample to a lab to determine if it is “black.” Maybe it’s not really black, maybe it’s really a deep blue or dark brown, or kinda ruddy red. After all, if you call it “black mould” you better have a lab report to confirm the color, right? Because maybe a ruddy red mould is not quite as toxic as a deep green mould that just looks black.

    Should it not be tested?

    For what? What on earth will you ask the lab to determine? You already expressed the very reasonable and supportable conclusion that it is mould because it looks like mould, and if you test it, (just like any other duct or register) it WILL test positive for mould. So what are you going to “test” if for? Just send me $35 and I will send you a report:

    Dear Mr. Murphy:

    Your sample contains mould. Specifically, your sample contains Aspergilli (black kinds, white kinds, and green kinds), Penicillia (black kinds, white kinds, and green kinds), Stachybotrys (black), Cladosporia (all black), Basidiospores, amerospores, smuts, rusts, and yeast.

    Signed
    Caoimhín P. Connell, CMA, CMRP, CIOM, CM, CMM, CIMP, CIC
    Chief Senior Scientist
    Head Microscopist


    (By the way, for an additional $100, I’ll include some really cool micrographs and color charts like the EMLab P&K MoldREPORT and I’ll even invent a new mould score index for you!)

    Jim, if you think the registers are dirty, just tell your client : “The registers look dirty, maybe you should clean them.” Don’t waste your client’s money with meaningless, useless, uninterpretable “tests.”

    Just my thoughts. (Cheaper and less painful than a 49 page rebuttal letter).

    Sorry I haven’t been around, Gents – been busy spreading hate and discontent amongst the darker side of society: Leave no stoner unturned.

    Cheers!
    Caoimhín P. Connell
    Forensic Industrial Hygienist
    Forensic Industrial Hygiene

    (The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

    AMDG


  19. #19
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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Caoimhín P. Connell... I have a question for you...

    Please read this statement as see if you find anything wrong with it.

    This statement is a requirement by the Calif. Structural Pest Control Board. This statement must be in my Ca. WDO Inspection reports.

    "This property was not inspected for the presence or absence of health related molds or fungi. By California law we are neither qualified, authorized nor licensed to inspect for health related molds or fungi. If interested parties desire any information about the presence or absence of health related molds or fungi you should contact an industrial hygienist for further inspection."

    Thanks for your input...

    Best

    Ron



  20. #20
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Caoimhín,very impressive.It's gone very quiet in here.


  21. #21
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    Post Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Some breakers are allowed to be double tapped. Breakers that have slots for two wires are allowed to be double tapped. You need to understand that double tapping does not mean that the circuit is overloaded. (For example) The main service panel is located in the garage. You have a 20 amp circuit feeding one single receptacle furthest away from the main panel. You would like to add an additional receptacle on the same 20 amp circuit in a room that is close to the main panel. In this case it make more sense to double tap the breaker (if allowed) than to run wire from one end of the home to the other.

    Last edited by Trent Tarter; 08-29-2009 at 06:20 PM.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: 100 amp panel with a lot of problems

    Quote Originally Posted by Trent Tarter View Post
    Some breakers are allowed to be double tapped.

    Trent,

    Those breakers are essentially not "double tapped" as there are essentially two identified terminals for the two conductors, putting each in their own terminal, meaning that they are not "double" taped.

    For example, the Square D breaker with the plate with the two raised captive areas for the conductors, one for each conductor, one on each side of the terminal screw. One terminal screw tightens the two terminals provided for on that plate.

    Follow that reasoning?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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