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  1. #1
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    Default grounding bar installed with New Service

    I am looking for some words of wisdom today.

    Back from a home inspection. Area things was normal until I started looking over the house electrical, and most important the Electrical
    Service.

    1) Outside, brand new, was a double 200 meter socket assembly with ea.
    meter feed to a Service Disconnect Breaker located right inside the
    assembly. The Service Ground Attach at this point, and two SE-R
    cable went back into the house. One rated 100 amps other rated
    60 amps.

    2) The house Electrical Panel was pre-existing panel, 30 years +
    The panel has a 100 amp. 2-pole main.

    3) I didn't know how this panel was prevously wired before. I told the
    Owner that the electrician who did this job, forget to install a
    grounding bar. With this type of new service, you not longer have
    the grounding and ground wires attach to and sharing the same bar.
    Also the bare aluminum conductor feeding the ground bar should be
    attach to the a grounding bar. (not installed). And there there should
    be another conductor wire, size #2, black with white strips, this is
    call the ground conductor, and this wire now should to be attach to
    the ground bar. The aluminum one you now see inside your electrical
    panel, un-insulated would them be move, and attach the the ground-
    bar, (not currently installed). And when install and properly wired,
    all the grounding wires would then need to be moved off from the
    ground bar and re-attach to the newly install grounding bar. After
    this is done the panel bonding screw must be removed.

    4) I mention he should call the electrician and have him do it correctly.

    Then we part company. The customer waS NOT happy with my
    verbal report.

    5) How could have done a better job, informing the customer about this
    problem. Perhaps I miss something, and the electrician job is 100
    percent correct.

    6) This house has NM cables with grounding conductors.
    NM cables with reduce size grounding conductors.
    And NM-B cables with full size grounding conductors.

    7) Where there other electrical wiring mistakes, yes. But I though I start
    with the Electrical Panel first, before the fireworks start.

    Thanks for any and all comments.

    "And how was your day."

    Similar Threads:
    F.I.R.E. Services

  2. #2
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    You are correct that the feeder to the old panel should have been changed to a 4 wire feed. A ground bar should have been added and all the grounding wires would need to move to the new grounding bar. Remove the panel bond screw.

    Circuit modifications may also be needed for electric ranges fed from the old panel.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Robert,

    You lost me in there in your explanation and description.

    Then you said you could not now do something which your description indicates would be okay.

    Like I said, you lost me in your explanation and description of what you had.

    This is what I think you said:

    There was a new meter installed with two SER cables which went inside, one to a service equipment panel where the grounds and neutrals are bonded together on the same panel. Then you said that was not allowed (but it is allowed, even required).

    You did not say where the other SER cable went, and that could be (likely is) a problem. You now have two sets of SEC going to two sets of service equipment, both of which are required to be grouped together, but you made no mention of it.

    So ... as you can see, I'm just shooting from the hip on what I think you said.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  4. #4
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    I am looking for some words of wisdom today.

    Back from a home inspection. Area things was normal until I started looking over the house electrical, and most important the Electrical
    Service.

    1) Outside, brand new, was a double 200 meter socket assembly with ea.
    meter feed to a Service Disconnect Breaker located right inside the

    assembly. The Service Ground Attach at this point, and two SE-R
    cable went back into the house. One rated 100 amps other rated
    60 amps.

    ."
    Jerry
    Sounds like a 2 gang meter stack outside then 2 subpanels inside


  5. #5
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Robert-
    You are on the right track, but you need to use the proper terminology. Using the correct terms will eliminate the confusion in your post.
    I took the liberty of inserting the proper terminology in red . Replace the words in Blue with the terms in Red and it is less confusing

    Where did the 60 amp SER Cable go ? I assume the 100 amp SER went to the electric panel.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    I am looking for some words of wisdom today.

    Back from a home inspection. Area things was normal until I started looking over the house electrical, and most important the Electrical
    Service.

    1) Outside, brand new, was a double 200 meter socket assembly with ea.
    meter feed to a Service Disconnect Breaker located right inside the
    assembly. The Service Ground Attach at this point, and two SE-R
    cable went back into the house. One rated 100 amps other rated
    60 amps.

    2) The house Electrical Panel was pre-existing panel, 30 years +
    The panel has a 100 amp. 2-pole main.

    3) I didn't know how this panel was prevously wired before. I told the
    Owner that the electrician who did this job, forget to install a
    grounding bar. With this type of new service, you not longer have
    the grounding and ground ( grounded or Neutral )wires attach to and sharing the same bar.
    Also the bare aluminum conductor feeding the ground bar should be
    attach to the a grounding bar. (not installed). And there there should
    be another conductor wire, size #2, black with white strips,( or field installed white tape) this is call the ground ( grounded or neutral)conductor, and this wire now should to be attach to the ground ( neutral )bar. The aluminum one you now see inside your electrical panel, un-insulated would them be move, and attach the the ground-
    bar, (not currently installed). And when install and properly wired,
    all the grounding wires would then need to be moved off from the
    ground ( neutral) bar and re-attach to the newly install grounding bar. After
    this is done the panel bonding screw must be removed.

    4) I mention he should call the electrician and have him do it correctly.

    Then we part company. The customer waS NOT happy with my
    verbal report.

    5) How could have done a better job, informing the customer about this
    problem. Perhaps I miss something, and the electrician job is 100
    percent correct.

    6) This house has NM cables with grounding conductors.
    NM cables with reduce size grounding conductors.
    And NM-B cables with full size grounding conductors.

    7) Where there other electrical wiring mistakes, yes. But I though I start
    with the Electrical Panel first, before the fireworks start.

    Thanks for any and all comments.

    "And how was your day."



  6. #6
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Outside the this house is a two-gang meter socket assembly
    This assembly houses the Two Individual spot for 2-pole circuit breakers.
    The meter sockets arrange over and under.
    One meter feeds one 2-pole circuit breaker.
    The 2nd meter feeed 2-pole circuit breaker.
    The house Service is I believe, with the meter sockets, and also ground
    at this loction.
    Six of less throws of the hand, this assembly has only two.
    Feeder Cables, know to me as SE-R cable leave this meter socket assembly. Each cable has four individual wires, three are full insulated with the 4th. wire not!!, but round and bare.

    What I found was one cable #2 SE-R running thru the house and into the
    previous existing electrical panel. This panel one not a main lug only style.
    This panel was equip with one 100 amp. 2-pole breaker and also had
    terminal lugs attach to it. (my note: I believe, before the change this was
    a SERVICE PANEL) and after the change it just a panel with a on/off
    switch, (here this case its the exist Breaker).

    Moving on, Two Leads, from the SE-R cable feed into the 100 breaker.
    The GROUND CONDUCTOR, is not found inside the existing electrical panel.
    But found inside the Electrical Panel and attach to the existing ground/neutral bar is the 4th wire, which is round and bare. It my understanding this 4th wire is to be attach to a Grounding Bar, (not currenty install inside the house present Electrical Panel).

    THE OTHER CABLE FEEDER OUT FROM THE METER SOCKET BY WAY OF
    A 2-POLE CIRCUIT BREAKER, feed into the basement of the House, to
    a 70 amp. individual breaker box, that houses only a 30 amp. 2-pole
    circuit breaker. The load side off this breaker feed directly into a electric
    storage tank, hot water heater. Every switch and breaker box in this
    basement is cover with water condensation.

    Many thanks for your feedback.

    The owner 85 years old, and I am having trouble in making understand
    what I am telling.

    I don't write the rules, but just to tell the customer how they applied
    to his home. And I am having trouble in this dept.

    THANKS!


  7. #7
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Quote Originally Posted by ken horak View Post
    Jerry
    Sounds like a 2 gang meter stack outside then 2 subpanels inside

    Ken,

    Except he made no mention of any disconnects, which means two meters supplying ... what SERVICE EQUIPMENT ... not "panels" ... where is the second service equipment?

    I see he has in his last post, which I will go over later.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    Moving on, Two Leads, from the SE-R cable feed into the 100 breaker.
    The GROUND CONDUCTOR, is not found inside the existing electrical panel.
    But found inside the Electrical Panel and attach to the existing ground/neutral bar is the 4th wire, which is round and bare. It my understanding this 4th wire is to be attach to a Grounding Bar, (not currenty install inside the house present Electrical Panel).
    Did it look like the conductor had been cut off in the panel?


  9. #9
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    Outside the this house is a two-gang meter socket assembly This assembly houses the Two Individual spot for 2-pole circuit breakers.
    Okay, this is meter/service equipment combination enclosure.

    The meter sockets arrange over and under.
    One meter feeds one 2-pole circuit breaker.
    The 2nd meter feeed 2-pole circuit breaker.
    Those are the main "service" disconnects.

    [quote]The house Service is I believe, with the meter sockets, and also ground at this loction.

    That would be correct.

    The service at this outside point is grounded to the grounding electrode system.

    Six of less throws of the hand, this assembly has only two.
    All within requirements - good.

    Feeder Cables, know to me as SE-R cable leave this meter socket assembly. Each cable has four individual wires, three are full insulated with the 4th. wire not!!, but round and bare.
    The bare ground is okay, the insulated neutral is required, the two phase conductors are also insulated as required.

    What I found was one cable #2 SE-R running thru the house and into the previous existing electrical panel. This panel one not a main lug only style.
    It is not required to be a main lug only, it may have its own panel main. There is nothing wrong with that, and, in fact, I prefer that as I feel it is safer.

    This panel was equip with one 100 amp. 2-pole breaker and also had terminal lugs attach to it. (my note: I believe, before the change this was a SERVICE PANEL) and after the change it just a panel with a on/off switch, (here this case its the exist Breaker).
    You are probably correct, now for the potential problem:

    As the old service equipment the neutral was required to be bonded to ground at that service equipment, and was, and quite possibly that service equipment is rated as "Suitable for service equipment ONLY" in that the neutral may not have provisions for isolating it from ground.

    If that is the case, then that needs to be replaced.

    Moving on, Two Leads, from the SE-R cable feed into the 100 breaker. The GROUND CONDUCTOR, is not found inside the existing electrical panel.
    The groundING conductor or the groundED conductor?

    The groundED conductor is required to be in that panel and connected to the neutral terminal bar.

    The groundING conductor is also required to be in that panel as it is part of the cable, as you stated earlier. The groundING conductor *could have been* metal raceway, but it was that bare conductor, so that bare conductor is now required to terminal IN that enclosure which used to be service equipment but is now only a panel.

    But found inside the Electrical Panel and attach to the existing ground/neutral bar is the 4th wire, which is round and bare. It my understanding this 4th wire is to be attach to a Grounding Bar, (not currenty install inside the house present Electrical Panel).
    Okay, you have lost me again.

    Did you just switch enclosures you were talking about?

    If that is the case, please explain it differently.

    If that is not the case, then when you said the feeders went to ... you said they went someplace else. I'm not following now.

    THE OTHER CABLE FEEDER OUT FROM THE METER SOCKET BY WAY OF A 2-POLE CIRCUIT BREAKER, feed into the basement of the House, to a 70 amp. individual breaker box, that houses only a 30 amp. 2-pole circuit breaker. The load side off this breaker feed directly into a electric storage tank, hot water heater. Every switch and breaker box in this basement is cover with water condensation.
    The owner 85 years old, and I am having trouble in making understand what I am telling.
    I'm NOT 85 years old and I'm having trouble understanding what you are describing. Mostly because you are not using the correct terminology in your descriptions.

    Hopefully between Ken and I we have helped in your descriptions and those description will soon be understandable.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #10
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Thanks for feedback

    Having brain frats.

    Here I go again, "Service equipment conist of a circuit breakers or a fuse
    switch provided to disconnect all ungrounded conductors in building or a
    structure from the service-entrance conductors"

    "The disconnectiong means at any on locations is to consist of not more
    than six circuit breakers or six switchs and is required to to be readily
    accessible, either inside or outside the building structure, nearest the
    point of entrance of service-entrance conductors"

    Here you have Service-entrance conductors enter a two-gang Meter
    Enclosure. (assembly has room for two individual meter sockets).
    This Meter Enclosure has Service Equipment, with in this case it has
    two, 2-pole circuit breakers. Each breaker is individual service by each
    each individual Meter. (one Meter for House, 2nd Meter of Hot Water).

    "FOR GROUNDED SYSEM. The connection shall be made by bonding the
    equipment grounding conductor to the grounded service conductor and
    the grounding electrode condductor."


    The Meter Enclosure has the Service Equipment, i.e., the two circuit
    breakers physicial attach to the Meter Enclosure. Now as I understand
    the NEC code, it calls for a grounding electrode conductor connections
    be made to the first system disconnecting means or over or over current
    device. A grounding electrode conductor was installed at the Meter
    Enclosure.

    After that location we have feeder cable, 4-conductor SE-R, now here
    were I might have it wrong, the feeder cable goes to a house electrial
    circuit breaker panel box. This panel, in my defense, is not Service
    Equipment, but electrical equipment that now needs the following: a
    Isolated ground bar and grounding bar bonded to the electrical panel
    box.

    In my inspection, there was no isolated ground bar, (note: SD calls it
    a, "Ground Bar Kit.")

    Thanks for trying your best to understand what I have written, but I
    have one of the minds that is hard to follow, and some times I leave
    out important words, tha belong it a sentence.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Robert,

    Good to here so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    After that location we have feeder cable, 4-conductor SE-R, now here were I might have it wrong, the feeder cable goes to a house electrial circuit breaker panel box. This panel, in my defense, is not Service Equipment, but electrical equipment that now needs the following: a Isolated ground bar and grounding bar bonded to the electrical panel box.
    Change this: "This panel, in my defense, is not Service Equipment, but electrical equipment that now needs the following: a Isolated ground bar and grounding bar bonded to the electrical panel box."

    To this: "This panel, in my defense, is not Service Equipment, but just a panel that now needs the following: a neutral bar isolated from ground and grounding bar bonded to the panel enclosure."

    In my inspection, there was no isolated ground bar, (note: SD calls it a, "Ground Bar Kit.")
    If that panel is old it may not have the option for isolating the NEUTRAL (not ground) bar.

    Which is why I said it may be rated "Suitable for use as service equipment ONLY" - there is no way to isolate the neutral in enclosures with that rating, and that is why they have that rating. The other rating you will find is "Suitable for use as service equipment". Note that the word "ONLY" is missing, this is because the neutral terminal bar is isolated from ground and requires a bonding screw or jumper when used as service equipment.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Jerry If i understand you correctly, the existing panel, cannot be made
    legal, if there no way to isolate the neutral.

    This would be done by removing a bonding screw, if it had one.

    No other opition exists, and the electrician would have to come back
    and replace this panel.

    Or could you re-ground back at the orignal house electrical panel.

    I think maybe the electrician knew something, but now the question is
    what is he knew.

    So am I right in saying the panel is not up to current NEC CODE standard.

    Jerry the information you have provide has been must helpful.

    Sorry but I am also one of those people who are said to think outside
    the box.

    Many thanks


  13. #13
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    Jerry If i understand you correctly, the existing panel, cannot be made legal, if there no way to isolate the neutral.
    Correct ... *IF* ...

    That would be because it was tested, listed, and labeled for one thing and one thing only: service equipment.

    No other opition exists, and the electrician would have to come back and replace this panel.
    *IF* that is "service equipment" ONLY.

    Or could you re-ground back at the orignal house electrical panel.
    You've lost me again.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  14. #14
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Jerry this will be my last post and hopefully will be continue, if you chose to at a later date and time.

    If the Panel is rate only, "Service Equipment" my question why can't you
    run the grounding electrode wire back to this Electrical Panel.

    Or is written in stone, that it cannot, and now the neutral can only be
    grounded with the grounding electrode wire at the Meter Socket Enclosure. I know why I am loosing you, problem is my learning curve.

    NOW I TRY THIS STATEMENT: you alway ground the neutral at a house
    electrical service. Does the NEC say where this location will be??.
    And could that location be back, at the orginal panel?

    Again many thanks, but if your losing interest, I will completely under
    stand.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    And I understand that previous code cycle had allowed addition down
    stream from the Service using only three wire cable?

    If the statement is true, then what code cycle edition did they change
    over to using four wire cable. A type here we call SE-R.


  15. #15
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    I normally say that the sub-panel is wired like a service panel and needs to be repaired by a licensed electrcian. How they do the repair is up to them.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    If the Panel is rate only, "Service Equipment" my question why can't you run the grounding electrode wire back to this Electrical Panel.
    Trying one last time again.

    If that is "service equipment" then it is not a "panel", it is "service equipment.

    So, with that in mind ...

    ... I will re-state what you said with the new terminology and you correct me as to where I have it wrong.

    "If the SERVICE EQUIPMENT is rated only as "Service Equipment" my question why can't you run the grounding electrode wire back to this SERVICE EQUIPMENT."

    See the problem?

    You are asking about running the grounding electrode conductor back to where you started, or, are you talking about TWO DIFFERENT enclosures, one being SERVICE EQUIPMENT and one being a PANEL?

    Your use of non-terminology and incorrect terminology is confusing everything.

    Which is why you should stick to "service equipment" where the main SERVICE disconnect is and "panel" which is where the main SERVICE disconnect is not.

    Starting at the meter, going to the SERVICE EQUIPMENT, then going to the PANEL, makes things understandable and uses correct terminology.

    NOW I TRY THIS STATEMENT: you alway ground the neutral at a house electrical service.
    Correct.

    Does the NEC say where this location will be??
    Yes, sort of.

    The main service disconnect, and thus the service equipment, is required to be located "nearest the point of entrance of the service entrance conductors" into the structure.

    It the overhead service drop or underground service lateral stops at the meter (forgetting the riser mast for the overhead service and the riser for the underground lateral), the service entrance conductors start at the meter.
    - The service equipment may be outside, which means the service entrance conductors do not every enter the structure and the service equipment may be placed anywhere outside the structure.
    - The service equipment may be inside, which means that when the service entrance conductors enter the structure (which is defined in the code) the service equipment is required to be as close as possible to that point of entry. Which is why most inside service equipment is in the garage where the meter is outside, the service entrance conductors go through the wall (enter the structure) and the service equipment is right there inside the garage wall.

    And could that location be back, at the orginal panel?
    Depends on how the service entrance conductors are run.

    For the service entrance conductors to be considered "outside the structure", i.e., have not yet entered the structure, the service entrance conductors would need to be in a raceway which is then encased in 2" of concrete ... and I bet you have NEVER seen that, have you?

    Again many thanks, but if your losing interest, I will completely under stand.
    Not losing interest, just trying to get you to use the correct terminology so what you are saying makes sense and can be understood.

    And I understand that previous code cycle had allowed addition down stream from the Service using only three wire cable?
    Not quite as you stated it.

    The previous editions allowed 3-wire feeders to A SEPARATE STRUCTURE provided there were no metallic paths back to the main structure. Which means no phone lines, no TV antenna lines (cable or otherwise), no intercom lines, not metal water lines, not common footing connection (but then, that would not be a SEPARATE structure, would it?), no nothing which carry electricity back to the main structure, and other requirements.

    If the statement is true, then what code cycle edition did they change over to using four wire cable. A type here we call SE-R.
    2008 NEC

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  17. #17
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Jerry again many thanks for your recent post, I guess I am will take some
    time to re-read every reply post, that were written for me..

    And then I will re-visit this issue. THANKS!


  18. #18
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Came back to this thread I created in HELL!

    But I want to thank all the ones who took the time to post an answer.

    Jim Port
    Ken horak and Ken horak, who 2nd. answer turn on more brain cells.
    James Duffins, yea man right-on, "then take two asprins and call me in
    the morning." BUT I WANT MORE INFO FROM Jerry

    I shall return. But going out to a find brain cell doner. Then back to Jerry.

    Last edited by Robert Mattison; 08-21-2009 at 03:19 AM. Reason: spelling error

  19. #19
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    I believe this form time clock needs to be reset. Personal opinion by Robert S. Mattison

    Jerry I going to do a 180 on you. I am going to go slow so I can keep up with your terminology.

    In the beginning, this house had Service Equipment located outside, which
    consisted of a single Meter Socket assembly. (MY NOTES: there was no
    disconnect at this location.) The service entrance cable, consisting of two black insulated conductor with bare aluminum wire stands wrap
    around then. (MY NOTES: here in this state we refer this type of cable as
    type: SE-U.)

    After leaving the METER SOCKET, and entering the house, this cable spam
    a distance of some 25 Ft. before enter the house Service Equipment, with
    consisting of one main breaker., and it was a 100 amp. double pole circuit
    breaker.

    Inside the house Service Equipment, below the main breaker, are 12 one
    inch single slots, that where fill with both singles and double pole breakers.

    The house Service Equipment, with the main breaker, neutral bar was
    grounded by single grounding conductor cable that went outside and
    attach to a single ground rod, buried 8 ft. below grade.

    The house Service Equipment, neutral bar pull double duty, the white
    grounded circuit conductors along with the bar ground conductor wires
    all attach to the Neutral/Grounded bar.

    END OF PART ONE, understanding and speaking proper terminology when
    decribing a electrical sytem within a single family home.

    Jerry please read the above over, and make all necessary corrections,
    where I did not use the proper terminology. I am using this as a learning
    leason, so my brain can be re-wired, do to all the slang terminology used
    in my area. (MY NOTES: you hate the word subpanel. but around here it
    spoken all the time, and I see it in print in the D.I.Y. sections of news
    papers.)

    quote: "to teach is the greatest gift one can bestow upon another being."


  20. #20
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    I believe this form time clock needs to be reset. Personal opinion by Robert S. Mattison
    Go to your User CP link below the InspectionNews logo and click 'Edit Options', scroll down to 'Date * Time Options', then set your time zone.

    In the beginning, this house had Service Equipment located outside, which consisted of a single Meter Socket assembly. (MY NOTES: there was no disconnect at this location.) The service entrance cable, consisting of two black insulated conductor with bare aluminum wire stands wrap around then. (MY NOTES: here in this state we refer this type of cable as type: SE-U.)

    After leaving the METER SOCKET, and entering the house, this cable spam a distance of some 25 Ft. before enter the house Service Equipment, with consisting of one main breaker., and it was a 100 amp. double pole circuit breaker.
    Whoa!

    In the beginning ...

    The service equipment is not outside on that house as you said there was only a meter out there, no main service disconnect.

    That means from the meter the service entrance conductors are running 25 feet THROUGH THE HOUSE, which is not allowed, to the SERVICE EQUIPMENT (where the 100 amp main is).

    You were calling the meter "service equipment" and it is not. "Service equipment" is where the first main service disconnect is. If more than one main service disconnect then disconnects must be grouped and labeled what they are for (such as 'Main A for Panel A', Main B for Panel B', etc.)

    Inside the house Service Equipment, below the main breaker, are 12 one inch single slots, that where fill with both singles and double pole breakers.
    That entire enclosure is the "service equipment" with the panel section being protected by the main disconnect (the "service disconnect", "main service disconnect", "main disconnect', or a couple of other names).

    That panel section of the service equipment is simply a "panel", if you want to, some call it the "service panel", but it is nothing more than a "panel". I would note in my report that the "panel" I was referring to at that section in my reports was "part of the service equipment", and that another "panel" was "located in the laundry room" so everyone knew which panel was being discussed by which comments.

    Many areas of the county do not use "service equipment and panel" combinations, in other areas of the country the most prevalent installation is the use of those combination service equipment and panel enclosures.

    The house Service Equipment, with the main breaker, neutral bar was grounded by single grounding conductor cable that went outside and attach to a single ground rod, buried 8 ft. below grade.
    That is okay. The problem is not that the service equipment is located inside, but that it is located SO FAR inside. Now, though, that MAY be okay *IF* ... let's say the house is slab on ground construction, the service entrance conductors run inside a raceway (which, in your case they do not) from the meter, down the exterior wall, into the ground, under the slab to that location, then turn back up and enter the house. Those service entrance conductors are considered as "entering the structure" at a point 2" down into the concrete slab. That means that if the top half of the panel is 5 feet high, and the main is on top, the length of service entrance conductors "in the house" would be about 8 feet.

    That is where many AHJ get their allowed "eight feet of service entrance conductor is allowed in the house", that is not in the code, but it is sometimes considered "as close as possible to the point of entrance.

    Some AHJ say "Install the main at the bottom of that service equipment and you only need less than 5 feet of service entrance conductors in the house", and they only allow up to 5 feet of service entrance conductors in the house.

    Other AHJ say "The code say *nearest the point of entrance* so you can run the service entrance conductor through the garage wall and put the service equipment there, that is *the nearest point of entrance you can get* so keep the service entrance conductors to less than 3 feet, which will allow them to come into the bottom of the service equipment and run to the main at the top". Others are similar except they say "Put the main at the bottom and keep the service entrance conductors as short as possible to be *nearest the point of entrance* as possible".

    As you can see, there are many variations, but ... running service entrance cable 25 FEET THROUGH THE HOUSE is not what the code considers "nearest the point of entrance" which is where that service entrance cable penetrates the exterior surface of the house's exterior wall.

    The house Service Equipment, neutral bar pull double duty, the white grounded circuit conductors along with the bar ground conductor wires all attach to the Neutral/Grounded bar.
    That is allowed, after all, it is "service equipment" and "service equipment" is where the neutral is bonded to ground, and what better way than to share a common terminal bar which is also bonded to the enclosure.

    (MY NOTES: you hate the word subpanel. but around here it spoken all the time, and I see it in print in the D.I.Y. sections of news papers.)
    So are lots of four letter words, but that does not make them right either.

    Also, it seems obvious that clinging to those terms makes it difficult to say and understand what you are saying, thus it seems logical that one would simply discard the use of un-needed and un-necessary terms which only serve to confuse what is being said and done.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  21. #21
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    Manchester, Vermont
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Jerry stop in for lunch but have to leave again, but saw your most recent post.

    But right now I don't have time to really study it. But will when time permits.

    Thanks




    rain, rain, go away


  22. #22
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    Manchester, Vermont
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    298

    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    In my previous post, I may had misrepresented something incorrently.

    The Service Panel neutral was grounded by way of a #6 bare stranded
    copper wire, that ran parellel to the Service Entrance, and exit the house, than
    outside, was attach to one ground, that was not seen, but was buried below
    grade.

    In many places, very old homes, here in Vermont, it not uncommon to
    see Service Panel located some where inside the home, where the
    Service Cable cover more then 20 Ft. fish inside walls, and cover behinh
    dry wall or plaster. This cable comes straight from the Meter Socket with-
    out running into any fusible disconnect before it enters the Service Panel.

    JERRY PLEASE NOTE: I am writing about what was previously in the house before. AND not what type of Service is currently installed.

    To be continue.

    Last edited by Robert Mattison; 08-21-2009 at 08:07 PM. Reason: spelling errors

  23. #23
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    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    In my previous post, I may had misrepresented something incorrently.

    The Service Panel neutral was grounded by way of a #6 bare stranded copper wire, that ran parellel to the Service Entrance, and exit the house, than outside, was attach to one ground, that was not seen, but was buried below grade.
    You've confused me again.

    The service entrance cable you are referring to, does it have two insulated hot conductors and one outer conductor wrapped around the inner conductors, or, does it have three insulated inner conductors - two hots and one neutral?

    JERRY PLEASE NOTE: I am writing about what was previously in the house before. AND not what type of Service is currently installed.
    I understood that was what you were referring to in your first post ... (at least I understood part of it)

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  24. #24
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    Apr 2009
    Location
    Manchester, Vermont
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Jerry re-read my Post dated 08-20-2009 12:59 p.m.

    Every thing written before this this Post is old topic of discussion, every
    after, is a new topic of discussion. I didn't want to start a new thread.

    J.P. "Does it have two insulated hot conductors and one outer conductor
    wrapped around the inner conductors". MY ANS. yes!

    Jerry these lasted posts written after 08-20-2009 12:59 p.m. is an
    attempt, to give a back ground story. I am trying to descibed to you
    what this house had for its original electrical service I have dated that
    service to be 44 years old, if not older.

    Would it better for everyone if I erase the current thread all start all over.
    That would not be a problem for me. For I am the student here, and I
    want to learn.


  25. #25
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    Default Re: grounding bar installed with New Service

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    Would it better for everyone if I erase the current thread all start all over.
    Don't "erase" the thread, but start a new one from scratch, using the correct terminology and more defined descriptions, such as "the service cable is two insulated hot conductors and one uninsulated grounded conductor wrapped around the two insulated conductors".

    That clarifies that you are referring to "service entrance cable" which is only allowed to be used for "service entrance conductors".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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