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  1. #1
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Neutral bonded to panel

    Should this bond be removed. House was built in 68 but remodled somewhere along the line. Service was 100 amps and this is the distribution panel.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    1) The ground to the neutral bar needs to be removed and relocated to a proper ground terminal bar properly located and attached to the back of the enclosure.

    2) That copper grounds, the MANY copper grounds, need to be removed from that split bolt connector and properly terminated in a properly located ground terminal bar.

    SOME panels with neutrals like that, as I recall (it's been a while) had a means to separate (isolate) the upper terminal bar from the lower terminal bar, providing a ground terminal bar which is isolated from the neutral terminal bar. Looking at that one, though, it looks like that may not be possible, which would mean a separate ground terminal bar would be required. Maybe Bill K. or Ken H. could verify that.

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Jerry, I was looking for the same thing but that both of those bars did not appears to be seperated.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Maybe I need new eye glasses.

    I don't see in your photo's any bonding screwing at all.

    Perhaps another photo, with a pen pointing to it would clear this up for me.

    The split bolt has to go. And the wires once attach with the split bolt
    should be attach to a ground bar kit, which will effectively bond this
    panel with the Service Neutral, when it is install by an electrician.

    So, I would suggest that a qualified electrician examanine this panel.

    The home owner only wants to know, was the house electrical panel wire
    correctly.

    Your photo's, suggest, in this writer opinion that it wasn't.

    Last edited by Robert Mattison; 09-17-2009 at 03:18 AM. Reason: spelling

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    And the wires once attach with the split bolt
    should be attach to a ground bar kit, which will effectively bond this
    panel with the Service Neutral, when it is install by an electrician.
    Robert,

    A ground bar kit would only be bonded with the service neutral IF the bond screw is installed like in a service panel. It would only be connected to the panel enclosure in a non-service panel.


  6. #6
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Robert,
    Look in photo 1. The lower left of the neutral bar has a "folded" over piece of aluminium connecting to the neutral bar, connecting the neutral to the panel.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    It doesn't look to me like the buss bars can be separated. If they coud be it wouldn't be a good idea as accidental contact between the two would be very easy.

    To be honest, I've never even looked at trying to separate an assembly like this. For the $5.00 or $6.00 they cost I have always just added a ground buss bar - no muss, no fuss - as they say.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    For the $5.00 or $6.00 they cost I have always just added a ground buss bar - no muss, no fuss - as they say.
    That's what I was looking for in those photos and did not find it - the mounting dimple for those optional grounding terminal bars. Of course, though, those photos do not show all the area around the panelboard interior, so there may be one or more (usually there are one or two of them).

    They are not allowed to be installed 'just anyplace', the enclosures have little raised dimples with holes in them which are made for those optional grounding bars. The little raised dimples are the reverse of the mounting feet created for the 1/4" stand-off air space as these protrude into the cabinet to allow for the grounding screw to be self-tapped into the hole and have space before reaching the back plane of the cabinet.

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Jim Port

    I misread what I wrote down. But I want to thank you for catching this
    mistake on my part and bringing it to my attention.

    Jerry P., nice to see you on board.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    As far as electrical goes, I've noticed many on this board obviously have a lot of knowledge, good thing, but I've noticed some have even less than myself. For the benefit of myself and some others would it be correct to say that those grounds should always be on a bar of there own: that there may be more than one conductor in one terminal if labeled and listed as such but should not be twisted together at any time? Thanks very much


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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Robertson View Post
    For the benefit of myself and some others would it be correct to say that those grounds should always be on a bar of there own: that there may be more than one conductor in one terminal if labeled and listed as such but should not be twisted together at any time? Thanks very much

    No. In service equipment it is permitted to have both neutrals and equipment grounds on the same buss.

    In non service equipment, known universally as sub panels except by a few here, the neutrals must be separated and isolated from the equipment grounds and the housing. Depending on the manufacturer, there may be various combinations of sizes and quantities of equipment grounds allowed in a terminal. This varies not only by manufacturer but often between panels by the same manufacturer. You have to check the label every time. Significantly, some buss bars available for installation in the panel to add extra spaces or convert to non service equipment don't have the same criteria as the buss bar described on the panel label. Without following up on what was included with the panel this may go unnoticed.

    I'm not aware of anyone who has a problem with twisting the grounds together with the exception, again, of a few here. I've contacted panel manufacturers about it and their only concern is that individual wires aren't twisted when under the terminal screws. IMHO it is a waste of time to twist grounds and it's a royal pain if work in the panel requires untwisting and I discourage it. I've never seen twisted grounds turned down in an inspection by an AHJ, but YMMV.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    I'm not aware of anyone who has a problem with twisting the grounds together with the exception, again, of a few here. I've contacted panel manufacturers about it and their only concern is that individual wires aren't twisted when under the terminal screws.
    Bill,

    "I've contacted panel manufacturers about it and their only concern is that individual wires aren't twisted when under the terminal screws."

    Thus those manufacturers are stating the same thing I am.

    Don't put twisted wires into the terminal screw. That was simple, wasn't it? Same thing I've been saying for years.

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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    Maybe I need new eye glasses.

    I don't see in your photo's any bonding screwing at all.

    Perhaps another photo, with a pen pointing to it would clear this up for me.

    The split bolt has to go. And the wires once attach with the split bolt
    should be attach to a ground bar kit, which will effectively bond this
    panel with the Service Neutral, when it is install by an electrician.

    So, I would suggest that a qualified electrician examanine this panel.

    The home owner only wants to know, was the house electrical panel wire
    correctly.

    Your photo's, suggest, in this writer opinion that it wasn't.
    I believe this is the bonding strap.

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    David O'Keefe, many thanks for the update on the panel bonding issue.

    Mathew Stouffer, I know others may know what brand of electrical panel
    is shown in your photo's, but I do not.

    Last edited by Robert Mattison; 09-18-2009 at 03:01 PM. Reason: spelling

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Jerry

    I look over the 1st. photo again, I believe I do see the mounting dimple
    you were talking. It to the left of that large thread box screw, adjacent
    to the white insulated neutral conductor.

    If you don't see, maybe we should trade eye glasses. (humor)

    Last edited by Robert Mattison; 09-18-2009 at 03:12 PM. Reason: spelling

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    I believe you are referring to that large slotted set screw? If so, that is not it, neither is that Phillips or Torx screw next to it.

    Otherwise, I'm not sure what you are seeing.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Jerry, I not trying to joke with you. I don't that, out of respect for you.

    Look at where you see the wooden backboard appear through what look like a quarter moon outline.

    Look to the upper left corner, if a moon shape figure can have such
    a thing. But that were I think I see that mounting dimple you were talking
    about.

    Perhaps will get another photo, with better resolution, so the back of this
    panel stand out better.

    Yea, it's like looking for needle in a haystack. (humor)

    Got to go Jerry. But I really did think I saw it, in the 1st. photo.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Jerry, I was tactfully suggesting a few folks here have problems with twisted grounds. I saw a thread a while back that got into some major, ugh, "stuff" about them. I don't remember the names and don't care to drag the thread up again.

    I personally have a problem with it, but it seems to be a non-issue with the NEC and UL


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    Look at where you see the wooden backboard appear through what look like a quarter moon outline.

    Look to the upper left corner, if a moon shape figure can have such
    a thing. But that were I think I see that mounting dimple you were talking
    about.
    Robert,

    I still don't see it.

    Not what looks like what I am talking about.

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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    Jerry, I was tactfully suggesting a few folks here have problems with twisted grounds. I saw a thread a while back that got into some major, ugh, "stuff" about them. I don't remember the names and don't care to drag the thread up again.

    I personally have a problem with it, but it seems to be a non-issue with the NEC and UL

    Bill,

    *I*, and others, have a problem with it, and you are probably referring to a thread where I took a strong stand on that issue, but the issue was not the "twisted grounds which were then separated and laid parallel" in the terminal, but "twisted grounds which are laid into the terminal twisted".

    You post stated that "I've contacted panel manufacturers about it and their only concern is that individual wires aren't twisted when under the terminal screws.", and the manufacturers are agreeing with - *they* don't want the wires twisted *in the terminal* either.

    The photos which were attached to that thread clearly showed the wires *twisted in the terminal*.

    Now, I just said:
    "
    the issue was not the "twisted grounds which were then separated and laid parallel" in the terminal
    "

    Which is referring to the "twisted wires in the terminal" issue, which is not the same as "twisted wires which are then un-twisted and place in the terminal in parallel", the latter of which could, under fault conditions, create a choke coil effect and stop the fault current, thus twisted ground wires are not a good thing, even with the wires separated and run parallel into the terminal.

    "Twisted wires" does not make a stranded wire.

    Would you accept a stranded wire with one wire going off in one direction and one wire going off in another direction to someplace else, effectively making that stranded wire with a strand cut off? I really doubt you would accept what I just described.

    Accepting twisted wires is accepting the same condition you would not otherwise accept - so I am not sure why anyone would accept twisted wires.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Jerry it's me, again.

    I let my brother take at look, and he told me he couldn't see it.

    So you call it right after all. My mistake.


    So in my case four eye's are better than two.


    Have a great weekend.

    Last edited by Robert Mattison; 09-19-2009 at 09:46 AM. Reason: spelling

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Thank you gentlemen for your responses!


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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Robertson View Post
    Thank you gentlemen for your responses!
    Brian, in Ontraio, Canada, neutrals and grounds are separated in service equipment. You need to study up on the Canadian standards, plus local standards, as there are umpteen differences from what you will see here.


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    I thought John that the neutrals and grounds had to be isolated from each other in any panel after the service panel?


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    I read our "Electrical code simplified" for Ontario constantly, you might be familiar with that book, it's quite good, but perhaps overlooked that. That point is brought up on this board so often I guess I assumed a feature like that couldn't possibly be any different cross the border. Thanks< I've got more studying to do!


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Robertson View Post
    I thought John that the neutrals and grounds had to be isolated from each other in any panel after the service panel?
    Brian,

    From what John has explained in the past, and from what I think you are referring to, you would both be correct.

    You are referring to isolating the neutral from the grounds after the service panel.

    John has previously explained that, at the service panel, the grounds and neutrals are required to be in separate terminal bars, even though those terminal bars are themselves bonded to each other.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  27. #27
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    Default Re: Neutral bonded to panel

    Thanks Jerry, that's probably what John meant( as opposed to the bars being almost one on top of the other as in the OP's pics). That makes more sense to me. There are definitely differences in code but what I thought he meant wouldn't have made any sense. Thanks


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