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  1. #66
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul W Abernathy View Post
    .

    Do you guys really think I care what you think of me....or NACHI?
    .
    Excuse Me,
    But according to The Court Order it's internachi.
    .
    .

    NHIE Practice Exam
    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  2. #67
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    WOW !!! This topic has the longest thread I've ever read !!! Paul, you were great and I will be visiting your site soon. Jerry, you can be too technical sometimes - everyone in the whole country knows what a sub panel is. To me, remote means out in the "Boonies" or something wireless. Mr Farsetta, posting information in "Layman's Terms" works for me - and 99% of the rest of the world too.

    This site is good, but it shouldn't be turned into a rant forum. Who is right and who is wrong is not important, what is important is all the information all of you seasoned and knowledgeable people post that the rest of us can learn from. Being too technical just complicates things.


  3. #68
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hintz View Post
    This site is good, but it shouldn't be turned into a rant forum.
    As a totally impartial observer to this thread (and one who appreciates all there is learn from it)... it seems that most of the ranting is coming from the the newest few posters.


  4. #69
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Did anyone think that JF would not draw controversy?


  5. #70
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hintz View Post
    ...................Who is right and who is wrong is not important, what is important is all the information all of you seasoned and knowledgeable people post that the rest of us can learn from. ...............
    The information posted should be correct. Precision of language is important. If you learn incorrect information, how does this affect the industry? "Seasoned" and "knowledgeable" people should be held to a higher standard. Especially those engaged in the activity of educating others less informed.


  6. #71
    Richard Stanley's Avatar
    Richard Stanley Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    "I don't use the term "Subpanel" in my classes or publications. But ofcourse in order to take a dig at me and NACHI....you had to just give your 2 cents.

    Do you guys really think I care what you think of me....or NACHI?"

    lol.. here ya go fella ... Here is another 2 pesos. I don't care if you use the term sub panel. If you allow your students to use it without correcting them, you are condoning it. That then causes them to think it is ok, but, it is your class and your choice.

    From what I see there isn't anything left to dig at nachi. I seems to be about gone. I guess thats why some of the nachi board people are over here. There is nothing going on at the nachi board.

    The original poster of this thread was a 'big deal' at nachi...now he is over here begging for business .... without paying for advertising..

    Do you care what we think? I think so. You have signed off several times saying that you were done, etc., but, here you are again.
    Oh yeah, you posted your credentials and said something about being challenged about code. You might want to check out Jerrys list!!!


  7. #72
    Joseph Farsetta's Avatar
    Joseph Farsetta Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Mr. Stanley,

    I am still quite active at NACHI, and I beg to differ that I am "over here" begging for business. I write many articles and tidbits which are posted and published in a variety of forums, including this one.

    The fact that some of those who frequest this board appreciate the post is what makes it worthwhile. I can imagine some folks afraid of posting questions or comments "over here" for fear of reprimand by some of the more experienced inspectors. How sad.

    Also, one mentioned "newer posters" ranting. I do not consider myself as a "ranter" as I simply published a statement, and was "corrected" by someone with an apparent axe to grind. Folks have accused me of educating "incorrectly". Hogwash. The concepts are sound, and statements defensible.

    The sole legitimate question goes to my assertion that this was one of the more common defects. In my experience, and in my area, the statement is true.

    All the rest of the rants, including your characterization of "begging for business" is unfounded. Please show where I have "begged" for anything, solicited anything, or have done any more than making innocuous posts for the benefit of some who may actually learn something.


  8. #73
    Michael Greenwalt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    "talked about. In many of my seminars around the country I even have to call it "sub-panel" so the electricians in the room actually know what I am talking about and then and only then do I explain to them "Sub-Panel" does not exist anywhere in the code but it is what many of them have come to learn so a GOOD educator will roll with it and help them understand without confusing them at this point."

    Maybe just me but a confused electrician on basics is a little scary. I could personally care less on the description disagreement tho, as long as my client understands.


  9. #74
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    The information posted should be correct. Precision of language is important. If you learn incorrect information, how does this affect the industry? "Seasoned" and "knowledgeable" people should be held to a higher standard. Especially those engaged in the activity of educating others less informed.
    I absolutely agree with Fred, however, some self-professed "educators" appear to think otherwise.

    If you are teaching incorrect and imprecise terminology before experienced individuals - THEY KNOW what you were meaning to say and may ignore the apparent ignorance or inconsistencies in what you say, because they are reading between the lines ... that does not make you a good educator, it simply means you audience ALREADY KNOWS the material.

    Trying to do the same when you are actually "educating" someone and you will confuse the heck out of them for they do not "already know the material" and cannot read between the lines and correct your teaching mistakes - they take it like it is taught ... and do so incorrectly as it was taught incorrectly.

    Fred is right, if you are an "educator" you are, and should be, held to a higher standard, and that higher standard is one of correctness and being precise.

    As simple as teaching "The neutral is bonded to ground at the SERVICE EQUIPMENT."

    That is: simple, precise, concise, and ... correct.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #75
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I absolutely agree with Fred, however, some self-professed "educators" appear to think otherwise.

    If you are teaching incorrect and imprecise terminology before experienced individuals - THEY KNOW what you were meaning to say and may ignore the apparent ignorance or inconsistencies in what you say, because they are reading between the lines ... that does not make you a good educator, it simply means you audience ALREADY KNOWS the material.

    Trying to do the same when you are actually "educating" someone and you will confuse the heck out of them for they do not "already know the material" and cannot read between the lines and correct your teaching mistakes - they take it like it is taught ... and do so incorrectly as it was taught incorrectly.

    Fred is right, if you are an "educator" you are, and should be, held to a higher standard, and that higher standard is one of correctness and being precise.

    As simple as teaching "The neutral is bonded to ground at the SERVICE EQUIPMENT."

    That is: simple, precise, concise, and ... correct.
    Jerry, these are very astute observations. You've made a clear and concise distinction between the two "schools".
    It is a tireless, endless, and perhaps thankless job that educators have to at once teach new material while undermining old memes that were created by ignorant and permanent acts of intentionality.


  11. #76
    Brad Deal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    When I was in college some 30 years ago I had a very much respected management professor warn us about regional differences in technical descriptions commonly found in the construction industry. Names of devices, systems and techniques could vary from state to state, east and west, north to south. To be successful in communicating it is incumbent on the project manager to be aware of this circumstance and guard against mis-communication.

    If I mention service equipment to my clients they stare at me with blank eyes. If I say main panel they show a spark of recognition and they say, "Oh, you mean the electric meter.."

    I mention distribution boxes and my clients have no idea, but mention sub panel and at least some of the men will know at least a little about it.

    The problem here is that we have experts who are involved in different professions arguing over semantics, issues that are way outside the scope of a general home inspection. All these men are probably correct from their point of view, however they are unwilling to recognize their regional/professional differences in semantics. Their inability to reconcile these differences throws doubt over the entire thread.

    None of these men perform home inspections full time but make their living in some other profession. Codes are specfically excluded by SOP and contract; codes cannot be applied retro actively. These men are attempting to overlay standards from other professions onto home inspection industry. This is a very important distinction. Until the home inspection industry recognizes this fact, that it is not codes, but rather theory, i.e., the professional judgement of the inspector whether a system is safe, is what matters. We are being paid to provide a professional judgement that a home buyer can use to make an informed purchase decision. If I tell them their mid 1970 home is defective because it has a 3 wire service conductor rather than the modern 4 wire service conductor then I have retro actively applied modern codes to an older house. In the opinion of the real estate industry I have done a grave injustice to my client by suggesting the home is not safe, where in fact it is safe, but not quite as safe as a modern house with a 4 wire conductor. Our industry will never achieve the recognition from the real estate industry it deserves until this conflict of interest is resolved.

    How safe is safe enough?

    I now have to re-learn bonding/grounding/grounded/grounded conductors/ and ground round to keep my sanity.


  12. #77
    Richard Stanley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Brad,

    Do you believe that the client has the right to know that a particular system / device is less safe than current standards would provide?

    Do you feel that you have a right / obligation to tell them about it, if you are aware of it?

    If a house was built 50-60 years ago and every thing was approved / acceptable then, should you not mention anything that would require / suggest upgrades to meet a higher safety standard??


  13. #78
    Paul W Abernathy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    lol....ignorance run wild.....oh well.....better start correcting the "pioneer" educators of the country...Mike Holt, James Stallcup Sr., Phil Simmons, Charles Miller and the others........you people are quite insane.

    Reality is....you NEVER read all the posts but make comments on things you know nothing about...simply amazing...lol

    Anyway....best of luck to you all...and trust me......Of your "EXISTING" "litigators" here.....None are real educators and those who comment on educators could not teach their way out of a wet paper bag...lol...

    So I consider the source and laugh at you all in your replies...simply insane if you ask me. BTW....hope you all NEVER use any slang again when you "educate" someone.....lol...oh but wait..none of you are real educators anyway( Except Mr. Farsetta who I know educates people )....go figure.


  14. #79
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul W Abernathy View Post
    oh but wait..none of you are real educators anyway( Except Mr. Farsetta who I know educates people )....go figure.

    It is amazingly funning that the two people who come here professing to be educators and professing that teaching incorrectly is acceptable come from one organization: Internachi.

    I try to keep from commenting on organizations, but Joe and Paul make that impossible.

    Then there is Paul, who continues to say we have seen the last of him only to keep coming in and repeating it while trying to defend teaching it incorrectly, even trying to show it is okay by trying to tie himself to the coattails of well know and respected individuals, such as Mike Holt.

    Paul, I can tell you that Mike is open to learning and suggestions, and making corrections in his presentations to they are as correct as possible, unlike you, who refuses to acknowledge the simple facts of electrical installation, electrical code, and electrical teachings.

    Paul, do you, or do you not, agree that the location where the neutral is bonded to ground is at the "service equipment"?

    I asked that quite some time ago and you still have not responded with your answer.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  15. #80
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Deal View Post
    If I mention service equipment to my clients they stare at me with blank eyes. If I say main panel they show a spark of recognition and they say, "Oh, you mean the electric meter.."
    I suspect that if you used the proper name and called it "electrical panel" you would get a knowing response "Oh, you mean where the breakers are.", however, you persist in continuing using misleading names and resist in advancing forward with the proper names, names which your clients would also recognize.

    I mention distribution boxes and my clients have no idea, but mention sub panel and at least some of the men will know at least a little about it.
    Likewise, if you said "electrical panel" you would have the same, and probably even more, number of people know and understand you meant the breaker panel (also a very commonly used name, and one which does not try to separate "electrical panels" into separate categories).

    The problem here is that we have experts who are involved in different professions arguing over semantics, ...
    No, the problem is that we have so-called educator who continue to teach incorrect information to home inspectors, among others.

    If those so-called educator would teach properly, there would be no problem.

    Brad, question for you: Is the neutral bonded to ground at the "service equipment"? If not, where is the neutral bonded to ground?

    We are being paid to provide a professional judgment that a home buyer can use to make an informed purchase decision.
    Very true. And that professional judgment can only come with proper knowledge, it is, after all "professional" "judgment" and not "guessing".

    If I tell them their mid 1970 home is defective because it has a 3 wire service conductor rather than the modern 4 wire service conductor then I have retro actively applied modern codes to an older house.
    Brad, you've lost me there.

    Many modern installations (most modern installations) use 3 wires for SERVICE conductors (*you* did specify SERVICE conductors) - there is nothing wrong with that.

    Now, if you are thinking "feeders" and that older systems used 3 wire feeders and newer systems use 4 wire feeders, you are also incorrect as the "feeders" were always required to be 4 wires (since grounded systems came into being). "Service entrance" was, and still is, allowed to be 3 wires.

    Thus, what you are saying makes no sense, and what you are saying implies that you do not have a "professional" "understanding" of what is and was required.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  16. #81
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul W Abernathy View Post
    lol....ignorance run wild.....oh well.....better start correcting the "pioneer" educators of the country...Mike Holt, James Stallcup Sr., Phil Simmons, Charles Miller and the others........you people are quite insane.
    A person who has great technical skill or knowledge is trained in the minute, formal points, and details. That such a technical expert would likely be required to be aware of subtle changes in terminology seems obvious when one reads Article 100 "Definitions".

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul W Abernathy View Post
    Reality is....you NEVER read all the posts but make comments on things you know nothing about...simply amazing...lol
    Not sure who you're addressing here since your post lacks clarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul W Abernathy View Post
    Anyway....best of luck to you all...and trust me......Of your "EXISTING" "litigators" here.....None are real educators and those who comment on educators could not teach their way out of a wet paper bag...lol...
    I've commented on educators here in this post, so it's fair to assume your post is aimed at me, as well as others. So in that light, before you tire yourself out from "educating" me, you might want to work on your website a little more to improve the poor and digressive use of language and diction. It's clear, at least to me, that precision in language or fact is running secondarily along your primary interest, which appears to be self-aggrandizement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul W Abernathy View Post
    So I consider the source and laugh at you all in your replies...simply insane if you ask me. BTW....hope you all NEVER use any slang again when you "educate" someone.....lol...oh but wait..none of you are real educators anyway( Except Mr. Farsetta who I know educates people )....go figure.
    Merely more of your obstinacy and solecism emulating from your alimentary canal, further proving your imprecise research methods and insolent, defiant disrespect for posters on this forum.


  17. #82
    Paul W Abernathy's Avatar
    Paul W Abernathy Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Very big words from a nobody....yet no real background in the electrical industry to back it up. Typical.


  18. #83
    Fred Warner's Avatar
    Fred Warner Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul W Abernathy View Post
    Very big words from a nobody....yet no real background in the electrical industry to back it up. Typical.
    The overpowering temptation for you must be to imagine that your motives on this site and in this thread in particular, are good motives all the while masking the real motive which is to win a useless argument.

    Your pride having been dealt a blow, has caused ego-fear to develop and your mocking superiority is but a rationalization to justify the point that you are ignorant about memes and the long term effect they have on education.

    But on your website you downplay education and suggest that you are better educated on electricity than college graduates holding electrical engineering degrees. Here, upon close examination, your motives aren't hard to see or understand. You hide your criticism of educated individuals by your "constructive" arguments hoping to pull them down and elevate yourself. In this thread, your self-righteousness isn't as subtle, though.


  19. #84
    Jerry DeLong's Avatar
    Jerry DeLong Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    So, after all this discussion,what conclusion have we arrived at?


  20. #85
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry DeLong View Post
    So, after all this discussion,what conclusion have we arrived at?

    That neutrals are bonded to ground at the ... "service equipment".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  21. #86
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    I live in Kansas City and we had our first frost today. This made my nose run and i asked for a kleenex. Since Mr. Peck was not around to correct me as i should have said Tissue. I was handed a TISSUE and did not have to use my sleeve. Although considered a cowtown, by some coasters, at least we don't have snot on our face.

    Oh, by the way, since i asume that some newbies are on this site, we should tell them that on a 2-wire home 3 wires to a sub...... i mean a distrubation panel would have been approved in the past and may still be safe as designed.

    How many angles can dance on the head of a needle?


  22. #87
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    Oh, by the way, since i asume that some newbies are on this site, we should tell them that on a 2-wire home 3 wires to a sub...... i mean a distrubation panel would have been approved in the past and may still be safe as designed.
    Probably only 2-wires to a ... "panel" ... on those houses as they were likely not grounded systems at the time.

    How many angles can dance on the head of a needle?
    All the needles I've seen were rounded with no angles, you must have some strange needles there with angles on the head, much less angles which move around (dance).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  23. #88
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
    Stacey Van Houtan Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Poke fun at my typos ( angels) I can take it- I work with realtors there for i have thick skin.

    But on a seriious note. Check the Denver CO code site, The use the word subpanel is in a update notice for the 2008 NEC. The real world where i have built including buildings from coast to coast in 20-30 states all sparkies i have met understand what subpanel means when building.

    More important - how about a real question

    What if i install a new outlet with a 12/3 w ground wire that is connected to a two prong sub panel (the panel is located in a closet and has a spae opening at one edison type fuse ) NOW do we need a 4 wire feeder to the panel - should the panel be moved out of the closet -If I need a fourth wire can i just run one wire and if so what size would it be and would it be for the ground or neutral bare or insulated and what size. or do i need a complete new feeder - or can i put a GFCI marking it non-grounded on the outlet and not use the ground and leave the panel alone ?

    I await a answer o wise ones


  24. #89
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacey Van Houtan View Post
    Poke fun at my typos ( angels) I can take it- I work with realtors there for i have thick skin.
    Stacey,

    You made a fun and unnecessary comment, I returned with same. Seems like it was good enough for you to do but not for anyone else to do? Sheesh, you sure do not sound like you have a thick skin.

    The real world where i have built including buildings from coast to coast in 20-30 states all sparkies i have met understand what subpanel means when building.
    Okay, define what a "subpanel" is.

    I look forward to your answer and definition.

    More important - how about a real question

    What if i install a new outlet with a 12/3 w ground wire that is connected to a two prong sub panel (the panel is located in a closet and has a spae opening at one edison type fuse ) NOW do we need a 4 wire feeder to the panel - should the panel be moved out of the closet -If I need a fourth wire can i just run one wire and if so what size would it be and would it be for the ground or neutral bare or insulated and what size. or do i need a complete new feeder - or can i put a GFCI marking it non-grounded on the outlet and not use the ground and leave the panel alone ?

    Okay, let's state that in different wording, correct and proper wording, as (after all) that is what has been discussed here.

    - What if i install a new outlet with a 12/3 w ground wire that is connected to a two prong panel (the panel is located in a closet and has a space opening at one edison type fuse ).

    Note for the above: I must ask what you are referring to when you say "two prong" panel? Are you referring to a 2-wire, ungrounded, fuse panel?

    (continuing with the question)
    - NOW do we need a 4 wire feeder to the panel - should the panel be moved out of the closet[/quote]

    Answer for part of the question: "Should the panel be moved out of the closet?" Absolutely yes.

    Note for the above: How can you run a grounded circuit from an ungrounded panel? Besides, now that the panel is being relocated, the new panel is required to be grounded, so that solves that problem.

    (continuing with the question)
    - If I need a fourth wire can i just run one wire and if so what size would it be and would it be for the ground or neutral bare or insulated and what size. or do i need a complete new feeder[/quote]

    Answer for the above part of the question: "or do I need a complete new feeder"? Being as you are relocating the panel, you would need a new feeder appropriate for the new panel.

    (continuing with the question)
    - or can i put a GFCI marking it non-grounded on the outlet and not use the ground and leave the panel alone ?

    Answer to the above part of the question: Relcoating the panel as already been addressed, which means a new panel and a grounded installation, which means the new circuit to the receptacle will have a properly grounded circuit and the receptacle will be properly grounded. Which means that GFCI protection is only required if the new receptacle is in a location which the current code requires to be GFCI protected.

    Note, in the code section below, that you are referring to INSTALLING a NEW receptacle, not a REPLACEMENT receptacle. INSTALLED (i.e., "installing a new" receptacle requires a grounding-type receptacle.

    From the 2008 NEC. (underlining and bold are mine)
    - 406.3 General Installation Requirements.
    - - Receptacle outlets shall be located in branch circuits in accordance with Part III of Article 210. General installation requirements shall be in accordance with 406.3(A) through (F).
    - - - (A) Grounding Type. Receptacles installed on 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits shall be of the grounding type. Grounding-type receptacles shall be installed only on circuits of the voltage class and current for which they are rated, except as provided in Table 210.21(B)(2) and Table 210.21(B)(3).
    - - - - Exception: Nongrounding-type receptacles installed in accordance with 406.3(D).
    - - - (B) To Be Grounded. Receptacles and cord connectors that have equipment grounding conductor contacts shall have those contacts connected to an equipment grounding conductor.
    - - - - Exception No. 1: Receptacles mounted on portable and vehicle-mounted generators in accordance with 250.34.
    - - - - Exception No. 2: Replacement receptacles as permitted by 406.3(D).
    - - - (C) Methods of Grounding. The equipment grounding conductor contacts of receptacles and cord connectors shall be grounded by connection to the equipment grounding conductor of the circuit supplying the receptacle or cord connector.
    - - - - - FPN: For installation requirements for the reduction of electrical noise, see 250.146(D).
    - - - - The branch-circuit wiring method shall include or provide an equipment grounding conductor to which the equipment grounding conductor contacts of the receptacle or cord connector are connected.
    - - - - - FPN No. 1: See 250.118 for acceptable grounding means.
    - - - - - FPN No. 2: For extensions of existing branch circuits, see 250.130.
    - - - (D) Replacements. Replacement of receptacles shall comply with 406.3(D)(1), (D)(2), and (D)(3) as applicable.
    - - - - (1) Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where a grounding means exists in the receptacle enclosure or an equipment grounding conductor is installed in accordance with 250.130(C), grounding-type receptacles shall be used and shall be connected to the equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 406.3(C) or 250.130(C).
    - - - - (2) Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters. Ground-fault circuit-interrupter protected receptacles shall be provided where replacements are made at receptacle outlets that are required to be so protected elsewhere in this Code.
    - - - - (3) Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where attachment to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (D)(3)(a), (D)(3)(b), or (D)(3)(c).
    - - - - - (a) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another non–grounding-type receptacle(s).
    - - - - - (b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.
    - - - - - (c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.
    - - - (E) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment. The installation of grounding-type receptacles shall not be used as a requirement that all cord-and-plug-connected equipment be of the grounded type.
    - - - - FPN: See 250.114 for types of cord-and-plug-connected equipment to be grounded.
    - - - (F) Noninterchangeable Types. Receptacles connected to circuits that have different voltages, frequencies, or types of current (ac or dc) on the same premises shall be of such design that the attachment plugs used on these circuits are not interchangeable.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  25. #90
    Brad Deal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    The demeaning comments on this thread show a fundamental lack of character and presents a poor representation of the home inspection industry. There is an inability by some to see the overall theme of a post and they driven to cross examine the poster in such a manner as to drive them away from posting anything of a significant nature.

    In order to post one must be willing to be subjected to a voir dere where every single bit of minutiae is singled out and cross examined to expose supposed flaws in the comments. In order to protect himself, the poster must first thoroughly research the material and be ridiculously precise in the presentation, and be prepared for a deposition.

    I am pretty sure this is not the intent of this forum. Perhaps the ICC forum or Mike Holt forum would be a more appropriate platform to expound on the intricacies of building code enforcement. Home Inspections are not code inspections. Building codes are not retroactive. They play a relatively small role in the home inspection business, but yet they seem to be the standard by which all things are judged.

    I inspect property every day. I try to stay away from attorneys for fear of catching a communicable disease and the so called expert witnesses I have come across are generally corrupt.

    What do you do for a living?


  26. #91
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Deal View Post
    Home Inspections are not code inspections. Building codes are not retroactive. They play a relatively small role in the home inspection business, but yet they seem to be the standard by which all things are judged.
    Brad,

    That is because building codes ARE the standard by which many things are judged in home inspections.

    You are, after all, and as a home inspector, inspecting a structure which was (or should have been) constructed to a code - the building codes (which includes the NEC for electrical). Unless you have a fairly good grasp on the building code, how on earth can you know and understand what is "acceptable" and what is not?

    Yes, home inspectors DO inspect with codes in mind, and, yes, you are correct, home inspectors are not doing "code inspections" per se, but home inspectors certainly should know and understand what they are inspecting ... and that means being familiar with and understand codes.

    Why is that stairway wrong? Want documentation? It is in the codes.

    Why is that (whatever) wrong? Want documentation? It is in the codes.

    More to the point .. Why is that (whatever) acceptable? Want documentation? It is in the codes. As well as the reasons it is acceptable (or not acceptable).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  27. #92
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Just to put this discussion back on track:

    Here is a piece from the UL Panelboard Marking Guide (at the back of the UL White Book). (underlining and bold are mine)


    19. In general, the grounding-electrode connection in service equipment is required to be made to the grounded service conductor at the neutral bar. However, Section 250.24(A)(4) of the NEC® permits this connection to be made to the equipment grounding terminal bar, provided the main bonding jumper is a wire or a bus bar and is installed from the neutral bar to the equipment grounding terminal bar. If in a panelboard suitable for use as service equipment, the main bonding jumper wire or bus bar is provided for field installation, instructions are marked on the panelboard for proper installation of the jumper.


    50. Most installers recognize the importance of bonding the neutral to the enclosure at the service. Many do not realize, however, that it is just as important to omit the bonding and provide a fully insulated neutral when the panelboard is used in non-service applications.

    If neutrals are bonded at distribution points on the load side of the service disconnecting means, the neutral currents take parallel paths through neutral conductors and the grounding conductor (which may include metal raceways). If neutral conductors open, the full neutral current flows over the grounding conductor system (which may include metal raceways). As a result of this loss of the neutral connection, steel raceway joints and box connections overheat, creating a potential fire hazard.


    A thank you to Joe Tedesco for sending some of that information to me to post here.


    I frequently post the official name is "panelboard", then recommend simply using the term "panel" or "electrical panel" to differentiate "service equipment" from "panels".


    "Service equipment" is where the main disconnect is, which is a specialized "panelboard".

    "Panels" (i.e., panelboards) which are suitable for use as "service equipment" will either be marked "Suitable only for use as service equipment." or "Suitable for use as service equipment.", the key difference is the word "only" in the first one. That word "only" is a big deal and makes a big difference.

    Panels which are "Suitable only for use as service equipment." will have the ground and neutral made such that the are not separable, the neutral cannot be isolated from ground.

    Panels which are "Suitable for use as service equipment." will have the neutral and ground made such that the neutral is isolated from ground and the two may be bonded (electrically connected) together when used as service equipment, and left with the neutral isolated from ground when used as (my other common phrase) 'other than service equipment' or 'not service equipment', i.e., regular old "panels".




    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  28. #93
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    Wink Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Thanks Jerry!

    Here's an old proposal for the 2002 NEC:

    http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/pdf/A100.pdf

    (Log #2499)

    1- 191 - (100-Subpanel (New) ): Reject

    SUBMITTER: Andre R. Cartal, Bldg Dept., Princeton Borough, NJ
    RECOMMENDATION: Add a definition of "Subpanel" as a
    panelboard located in the same building as the service equipment
    that supplies it.

    SUBSTANTIATION: The use of the term subpanel seems to be on
    the increase in many code articles and seminars and while the NEC
    does not use this word we would then all know what the word meant
    when it was used.

    PANEL ACTION: Reject.

    PANEL STATEMENT: The term "subpanel" is not used in the Code
    and therefore does not warrant a definition.

    NUMBER OF PANEL MEMBERS ELIGIBLE TO VOTE: 13
    VOTE ON PANEL ACTION:
    AFFIRMATIVE: 12
    NOT RETURNED: 1 Macias

    See this:

    we don't need no stinkin' ... - Home Inspection & Home Inspector Services For Inspections and Inspectors

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Last edited by Joe Tedesco; 10-12-2009 at 07:25 PM. Reason: More information on another post!

  29. #94
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Brad and Stacey,

    Now you understand why some newer inspectors are a bit gunshy at posting comments on this message board. I am not, however. There is no boogy man, and Jerry Peck and Co do not scare me. For education is an art and not a science. I am licensed as an instructor in many states, and have provided quality continuing education, and qualifying education here in NY, for several years.

    While I may sometimes digress from what some purists believe is the ONLY way for anyone to teach, what they fail to address is the fact that, beyond semantics, my initial post was in fact valid. One may argue whether the observation is pervasive in their area, but I doubt many electricians will argue that the problem I described is not valid.

    Mr. Peck once again fails to addres the TRUE problem, in that he simply does not appreciate me posting on this forum. Those who have chastised me (primarily) have long-standing opinions which differ from my own. Their lack of acknowledgement of the validity in my post only serves to illustrate that they are more interested in bashing their inane point across, as opposed to taking the opportunity to educate in the process.

    I submit that they are not educators. They may be competent inspectors, but their inability to see grey and shades of grey, make them ill-suited for any classroom. Inspectors rarely deal in pure black and white.

    To those who seek the answer to code specific questions, and who have asked Jerry for advice in the past, I am confident that he provided precisely what you needed. That is to his credit. However, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Jerry apparently still refuses to acknowledge the word sub-panel, even when the verbiage is presented to him affirming its validity and common use.

    So, sure.. Old Joe didnt use the words some would have liked him to use. And, no I do not believe that codes play as critical a role in inspections as some would like us all to think. General understanding of building science, plumbing, electrical, foundations, framing and more go just as far if not farther..

    What can I say? To a handful, no matter what the opposition believes simply cannot be recognized as correct. Fortunately, they remain in the minority.While I acknowledge the technical correctness of Mr. Peck, his electrical lesson got lost in the sauce.

    I hope a few of you benefitted from this lively exchange. Maybe some actually learned something.


  30. #95
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Fred wrote:

    "...suggest that you are better educated on electricity than college graduates holding electrical engineering degrees."

    Disregarding all the rhetoric having to do with "correctness", and more to the point illustrated above, I am in the position of interfacing with degreed engineers of all disciplines, including structural, mechanical, civil, and yes... electrical.

    In fact, no fewer than four electrical engineers I deal with on nearly a daily basis are also licensed professional engineers. While I would not burden all of them with this inane argument, I did ask two of them to read my initial statement and comment. I asked them to tell me the truth, in that if the concept and delivery was not sound I wanted to know from two men with no axes to grind. If truly wrong, I asked them to help me understand why.

    They both thought my statement was correct, and acknowledged that it was a common mistake that some electricians and homeowners make. When I scrolled down and pointed to some of the posts which followed, they questioned the point that Mr. Peck was making, and both thought that (while technically correct), the information was essentially useless as it failed to address or augment the correctness of the initial statement. They were equally confused, not by the code references, but by Mr. Peck's explanation. They felt it could have been explained in much clearer terms. They felt that my explanation was correct, to the point, and presented in a manner which could be understood from the electrical engineer to the homeowner. They took no exception to it.

    So, too your comment and apparent dig to Mr Abernathy, I thought I'd use the opportunity to illustrate the point that those with electrical engineering degrees generally have no problem with my initial concept and statement. But, in the minds of some, there is no room for differing points of view, and that the purist of conceptsd are the ONLY concepts which are correct or are deserving of use... anywhere and at any time..

    As to degreed engineers.... it's not to say that one couldn't find two electrical engineers who disagree about my statement. The difference is that I doubt that either would think it important enough to burn up the bandwidth we all have over an essentially sound concept, over these past few days.


  31. #96
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Farsetta View Post
    Fred wrote:

    "...suggest that you are better educated on electricity than college graduates holding electrical engineering degrees."

    Disregarding all the rhetoric having to do with "correctness", and more to the point illustrated above, I am in the position of interfacing with degreed engineers of all disciplines, including structural, mechanical, civil, and yes... electrical.

    In fact, no fewer than four electrical engineers I deal with on nearly a daily basis are also licensed professional engineers. While I would not burden all of them with this inane argument, I did ask two of them to read my initial statement and comment. I asked them to tell me the truth, in that if the concept and delivery was not sound I wanted to know from two men with no axes to grind. If truly wrong, I asked them to help me understand why.

    They both thought my statement was correct, and acknowledged that it was a common mistake that some electricians and homeowners make. When I scrolled down and pointed to some of the posts which followed, they questioned the point that Mr. Peck was making, and both thought that (while technically correct), the information was essentially useless as it failed to address or augment the correctness of the initial statement. They were equally confused, not by the code references, but by Mr. Peck's explanation. They felt it could have been explained in much clearer terms. They felt that my explanation was correct, to the point, and presented in a manner which could be understood from the electrical engineer to the homeowner. They took no exception to it.

    So, too your comment and apparent dig to Mr Abernathy, I thought I'd use the opportunity to illustrate the point that those with electrical engineering degrees generally have no problem with my initial concept and statement. But, in the minds of some, there is no room for differing points of view, and that the purist of conceptsd are the ONLY concepts which are correct or are deserving of use... anywhere and at any time..

    As to degreed engineers.... it's not to say that one couldn't find two electrical engineers who disagree about my statement. The difference is that I doubt that either would think it important enough to burn up the bandwidth we all have over an essentially sound concept, over these past few days.
    Joseph: I have in no way, shape or manner inferred (intentionally or otherwise) that an engineer is not educated or that you are not educated.

    Also, I was not discussing your website or your credentials. I've been to your website and read several articles you've written and found them to be interesting and factual. The only discussion I've had that was pointed at your post here has been the improper use of the term "short" in place of "ground fault" other than the use of the term "sub" used in place of "remote distribution". Just want to clear that up.

    I do think that the article could use some technical scrubbing to be more exact, but that is only my opinion. I am thankful that you posted the article for debate.


  32. #97
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Farsetta View Post
    Brad and Stacey,

    Now you understand why some newer inspectors are a bit gunshy at posting comments on this message board. I am not, however. There is no boogy man, and Jerry Peck and Co do not scare me.

    I submit that they are not educators. They may be competent inspectors, but their inability to see grey and shades of grey, make them ill-suited for any classroom. Inspectors rarely deal in pure black and white.

    I hope a few of you benefitted from this lively exchange. Maybe some actually learned something.
    Come on Joe, why would you state newer inspectors are a bit gunshy to post here.
    Where else can an inspector go if they truly believe they need to learn more about this profession, with out getting pressured to pay $s to join, get pressured to spend more $s, then after doing that be embarrsed by the crap on the site they paid to be a member of.

    If they can not figure out how to use information here, and are going to be intiminated by JP and others, they better get out of this profession NOW.....

    I've been here for a long time, I have yet to see any reason not to post.
    The only reason I've seen to be gun shy, or get challanged, is by coming here and claiming to be an expert, or geru, or due to having some hyped up non verified cert.

    Last edited by Dan Harris; 10-11-2009 at 10:48 AM.
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  33. #98
    Fred Warner's Avatar
    Fred Warner Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harris View Post
    .........................................I've been here for a long time, I have yet to see any reason not to post.
    The only reason I've seen to be gun shy, or get challanged, is by coming here and claiming to be an expert, or geru, or due to having some hyped up non verified cert.
    Gee, a Guru with hyped-up non-verified certification........now that's educational!


  34. #99
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Farsetta View Post
    Mr. Peck once again fails to addres the TRUE problem, in that he simply does not appreciate me posting on this forum.

    Yet again Joe F. does not have a grasp on reality.

    The only thing I have been impressing on Joe F. is that posting incorrect information in not suitable anywhere by anyone who thinks they are knowledgeable, let alone thinks they are an educator.

    Educators should make sure they only post correct information, and they should be willing to change their incorrect teachings to be correct.

    Joe F. has such a high opinion of himself the he believes my posts are aimed only at him, they are not. I have a problem with anyone (whether their name is Joe F. or not) who posts incorrect information and tries to pass it off as being correct, then compounds and confuses the situation by trying to claim they are "educators" as though that justifies teaching whatever they want to teach, even though it is incorrect.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  35. #100
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Jerry,

    Beyond nomenclature which you believe to be incorrect, but for illustrative purposes IS, in fact, correct, you have failed to disprove the context of my initial post.

    As to me "allegedly" being an educator, my credentials and success in that field are verifiable and documented. Sure.... it aint about me at all Jerry. Never was...


    There is another forum titled something like two-pronged receptacles. This response is for Richard:

    Richard,

    Not wanting to use the incorrect terminology (heaven forbid), I will ask you a bit of what you have described as "BX". Some armor-sheathed cable also carry an narrow aluminum tracer, visible as part of the sheath's winding. If this is present, then the matallic sheath carries the grounding conductor.

    But, you need to look


  36. #101
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Farsetta View Post
    Beyond nomenclature which you believe to be incorrect, but for illustrative purposes IS, in fact, correct, you have failed to disprove the context of my initial post.
    Joe,

    Being as there are no "main panels" and no "subpanels", for illustrative purposes there is no definition to illustrate to.

    For illustrative purposes, the neutrals are bonded to ground at the "service equipment" panel and are not bonded to ground at "other-than service equipment" panels.

    Sure.... it aint about me at all Jerry. Never was...
    You sure fooled me ... you sure do make it look like it is all about you in the way you post.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  37. #102
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Is the following illustrative?

    "A plug with one of those test-type buttons on it is hooked to a wire that goes back to the subpanel in a back room. Then there's a bigger wire that goes from there to the main panel next to the big switch in the cellar where the ground wire goes through that pipe and hooks to the water coming in."

    Most anyone slightly familiar with electrical systems could "get" this picture. However, most professionals would be more informative. How could it be painted with more detail and accuracy? Hint: "goes back" might be worded "originates".


    1st sentence might read: "A GFCI-protected, 15 ampere, duplex receptacle is connected to a non-metallic cable branch-circuit that originates in a remote distribution panel located in the north-eastern bedroom."

    Last edited by Fred Warner; 10-12-2009 at 06:35 AM. Reason: Solve 1st sentence

  38. #103
    Hugh Howard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Farsetta View Post
    DID YOU KNOW...

    ... that one of the most frequently seen electrical defect has to do with the wiring of electrical sub-panels? It's true. A majority of sub-panels, which are secondary electrical panels wired to the main electrical panel, require four-conductor feeder cables. Once these conductors reach the sub-panel, the grounded (neutral) conductor and grounding (bare-ground) conductor must be SEPARATED. In fact, the neutral conductor must be on its own termination bus bar, which is not in any way connected to the panel case, or housing. The ground conductor must be connected to the case. In addition to this, each individual branch circuit cable's neutral and ground conductors must also be separated, and correctly terminated onto the corresponding terminal bus bar. Often, inspectors see these wired co-mingled and terminated on a single terminal bus bar. This is a common electrical defect, which related directly to safety, and which must be corrected via re-termination. Sometimes, the feeder cable has an insufficient number of conductors (four are needed) which makes correcting this defect more costly and complicated.
    Interesting point. About two years ago I put a subpanel into a property that I own. Before doing so, I researched the local codes knowing that there was some degree of contraversy on the subject.

    I had always (known) and believed that the ground and neutral needed to be isolated everywhere but at the Main. The reason had to do with potential (voltage) differences that can (and do) occur as distance increases from the Main where the neutral and ground are bonded.

    As I did my research, I found an amazing amount of contraversy on the subject. There were schools of thought that suggested that sub-panels should be wired both ways, and suggestions that electrical codes in different areas allowed different configurations.

    Just some thoughts.


  39. #104
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    Smile Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Why don't you skunks return to the corners of your yard and leave each other alone?

    I am one of the many who monitor this board (for over six years now) in order to gain insight and benefit from those whose experience is different from mine. I have been in the construction and inspection business for over 25 years and can always learn something. Always!

    Increasingly I have seen discussions degenerate to vitriolic and personal attacks that appear to be driven by ego or testostorine poisoning.

    I have never been compeled to respond before, but this CRAP makes me crazy and I want to stop reading. STOP IT. You guys should know better. Just think of the consumers who also monitor your discussions.


  40. #105
    Hugh Howard's Avatar
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    Question Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Barnes View Post
    Why don't you skunks return to the corners of your yard and leave each other alone?

    I am one of the many who monitor this board (for over six years now) in order to gain insight and benefit from those whose experience is different from mine. I have been in the construction and inspection business for over 25 years and can always learn something. Always!

    Increasingly I have seen discussions degenerate to vitriolic and personal attacks that appear to be driven by ego or testostorine poisoning.

    I have never been compeled to respond before, but this CRAP makes me crazy and I want to stop reading. STOP IT. You guys should know better. Just think of the consumers who also monitor your discussions.

    Huh? I am sure that many others feel this way... wht are you talking about? Are you sure you responding to the thread you intended to? Your comments don't make any sense.


  41. #106
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Barnes View Post
    Why don't you skunks return to the corners of your yard and leave each other alone?

    I am one of the many who monitor this board (for over six years now) in order to gain insight and benefit from those whose experience is different from mine. I have been in the construction and inspection business for over 25 years and can always learn something. Always!

    Increasingly I have seen discussions degenerate to vitriolic and personal attacks that appear to be driven by ego or testostorine poisoning.

    I have never been compeled to respond before, but this CRAP makes me crazy and I want to stop reading. STOP IT. You guys should know better. Just think of the consumers who also monitor your discussions.
    Lee .. Welcome to the site.
    I agree, those dang elete self proclaimed educators and gerus, skunks from that other site succeded in stinking that one up, and now decided to come and stink this one up also.

    Last edited by Dan Harris; 10-12-2009 at 11:30 AM.
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  42. #107
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Joe,

    Can ANYTHING which is 240 volts ONLY (i.e., NOT 120 volt / 240 volt) be wired without a neutral? If that is what you are trying to ask, the answer to that is "Yes.", and that includes 240 volt ONLY electrical equipment and appliances.

    Those 240 volt ONLY equipment and appliances require 2-hots and 1- equipment ground.
    Joe and Jerry: I'm sure you both realize this, but perhaps those who are monitoring this thread may not.....A set of service conductors must contain a grounded conductor*. So even if you had a 240 volt service with no grounded conductors required for any of the branch circuits originating from the panelboard, you would not be permitted to install 2 phase conductors and an equipment grounding conductor. You would have to install the 2 phase conductors and a grounded conductor as your service conductors. I know you know this, but others may not understand this. Panels downstream are regulated differently. (*there are exceptions)

    Last edited by Fred Warner; 10-12-2009 at 01:13 PM. Reason: clarification

  43. #108
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    Joe and Jerry: I'm sure you both realize this, but perhaps those who are monitoring this thread may not.....A set of service conductors must contain a grounded conductor*. So even if you had a 240 volt service with no grounded conductors required for any of the branch circuits originating from the panelboard, you would not be permitted to install 2 phase conductors and an equipment grounding conductor. You would have to install the 2 phase conductors and a grounded conductor as your service conductors. I know you know this, but others may not understand this. Panels downstream are regulated differently. (*there are exceptions)
    Fred,

    "you would not be permitted to install 2 phase conductors and an equipment grounding conductor. You would have to install the 2 phase conductors and a grounded conductor as your service conductors."

    Unless the "equipment grounding conductor" in that service entrance (which is all you are referring to here - "service" entrance, not "feeders") was serving the normal dual purpose as the grounded conductor and the equipment ground conductor - which gets back to our previous discussion about being permitted to run an equipment ground conductor with a grounded conductor - where the grounded conductor also serves to ground the equipment (because it is connected to ground at each end). See the other thread for our discussion on this very issue. It seems to me that you are now taking the opposite position you took on that thread?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  44. #109
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Fred,

    "you would not be permitted to install 2 phase conductors and an equipment grounding conductor. You would have to install the 2 phase conductors and a grounded conductor as your service conductors."

    Unless the "equipment grounding conductor" in that service entrance (which is all you are referring to here - "service" entrance, not "feeders") was serving the normal dual purpose as the grounded conductor and the equipment ground conductor - which gets back to our previous discussion about being permitted to run an equipment ground conductor with a grounded conductor - where the grounded conductor also serves to ground the equipment (because it is connected to ground at each end). See the other thread for our discussion on this very issue. It seems to me that you are now taking the opposite position you took on that thread?
    No Jerry: I am not taking the opposite side as on the other thread. I am clarifying that a grounded conductor must always be run with service conductors. I'm not saying feeders, but rather service conductors and I wanted to make that point clear for readers of this post.
    Typical services in which a grounded conductor must be installed with the service conductors are: 120/240 V 1-Phase 3-wire system; 3-Phase, 4-wire Wye system where neutral is used as a conductor; and 3-Phase, 4-wire Delta where the midpoint of one phase winding is used as a conductor.
    The services where grounded conductors are not run with service conductors are typically for cranes that operate over combustible fibers in class 3 locations; for isolated power systems in hospitals; and for electrolytic cell circuits.
    Just because a panelboard is located within an enclosure containing a service disconnect and that panel is comprised wholly of branch circuits that do not require neutrals, the requirement for a grounded conductor to be included with the service conductors is still there for those types of services mentioned above.
    In other words, If I have a building that is entirely wired with 240 volt lighting, 240 V receptacles and baseboard heaters, and I feed it with a 120/240 volt 1-phase service, I must include a grounded conductor in the service conductor set. Not an equipment grounding conductor. This is a different discussion than the other thread.


  45. #110
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    The view from Cowtown is that many of these post are wrong some of the time, In our industry NO ONE ( ME, Joe or Peck included) are correct all the time, and most of the quesitons I have seen posted do not give enough information to give one single correct answer. And on some question any answer will be only a opinion no mater what.


  46. #111
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    In other words, If I have a building that is entirely wired with 240 volt lighting, 240 V receptacles and baseboard heaters, and I feed it with a 120/240 volt 1-phase service, I must include a grounded conductor in the service conductor set.

    And, my point was, that grounded conductor is allowed to be bare, uninsulated.

    The neutral grounded conductor is not required to be insulated until it is at the load side of the service equipment. From that point on, the neutral grounded conductor is required to be insulated.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  47. #112
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Gotta love it Guy makes a statement about sub panels that is only half right and it runs over a hundred posts.


  48. #113
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    Cool Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    Gotta love it Guy makes a statement about sub panels that is only half right and it runs over a hundred posts.
    Hey Bill:

    It gets even better here!

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    Last edited by Joe Tedesco; 10-21-2009 at 12:18 AM. Reason: Spelling

  49. #114
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Joe the years fly by. I remember that thread well. Jerry stand your "ground" they come and they go but you don't waiver..........

    Mike Schulz License 393
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  50. #115
    Joe Tedesco's Avatar
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    Talking Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Bump! I could not resist! Please forgive me!




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  51. #116
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Joe
    I guess you know that you may not be on Jerry's Christmas card list this year.
    Sorry, make that "Mid Winter Celebration" greeting card list.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  52. #117
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Joe,

    Even Sq. D tries to put it in layman terms for the nimrods like myself that shop the big box stores.. Doesn't make it right

    But it sure puts a damper on Jerry's crusade

    Mike Schulz License 393
    Affordable Home Inspections
    www.houseinspections.com

  53. #118
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schulz View Post
    Joe,

    Even Sq. D tries to put it in layman terms for the nimrods like myself that shop the big box stores.. Doesn't make it right

    But it sure puts a damper on Jerry's crusade

    Mike,

    Not really.

    I keep asking someone, maybe you will step up to the plate, to define the following, and explain why they are different.
    - "main" panel
    - "sub" panel

    Hint - they are both wired the same.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  54. #119
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Hi Jerry,

    When someone say's main panel to me my first thought is "First means of disconnect"
    When someone say's Sub-panel to me first thought is panel down stream from first means of disconnect.

    To me with the above mentioned the so called "main" is where ground and neutrals are bonded and is where you cut power to all other equipment/house.

    Sub-panel is down stream and there can be several and the neutrals and grounds are isolated from each other.

    Remember Jerry I just know enough to fry myself...........But I feel comfortable I could wire a home with no problem. May not know all the physics of it but we all have our weakness.

    Now for your Question. Your hint both are wired the same. I'm perplexed because it must be a trick question. Both are not wired the same because the so called sub panel has the neutrals and grounds separated while the "main" can share the same bar.

    Let the beating begin...........

    Mike Schulz License 393
    Affordable Home Inspections
    www.houseinspections.com

  55. #120
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Schulz View Post
    When someone say's main panel to me my first thought is "First means of disconnect".
    Mike,

    In many installations, there is a disconnect outside, no panel, and the one-and-only panel, which would therefore be the "main panel" is inside.

    When someone say's Sub-panel to me first thought is panel down stream from first means of disconnect.
    So, that would mean that the one-and-only panel was a "subpanel"?

    To me with the above mentioned the so called "main" is where ground and neutrals are bonded and is where you cut power to all other equipment/house.

    Sub-panel is down stream and there can be several and the neutrals and grounds are isolated from each other.
    In my scenario above, which is quite common, what would you call the one-and-only panel and how would it be wired?

    Now for your Question. Your hint both are wired the same. I'm perplexed because it must be a trick question.
    It is not a trick question.

    Both are not wired the same because the so called sub panel has the neutrals and grounds separated while the "main" can share the same bar.
    ALL "panels" are wired the same.

    It is "service equipment" which is wired differently, whether or not there is a panel there.

    What you are calling "the main panel" is in reality "service equipment" and THAT IS THE ONLY REASON the neutral is bonded to ground there - because the main service disconnect is located there, no other reason ... without regard to whether or not there is a "panelboard" within the same enclosure.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  56. #121
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    [quote=Mike Schulz;106043]Hi Jerry,

    When someone say's main panel to me my first thought is "First means of disconnect"
    When someone say's Sub-panel to me first thought is panel down stream from first means of disconnect.

    To me with the above mentioned the so called "main" is where ground and neutrals are bonded and is where you cut power to all other equipment/house.

    Sub-panel is down stream and there can be several and the neutrals and grounds are isolated from each other.

    mike,
    well stated and easy to understand for the common man!
    jerry,
    you are beginning to sound like bubbler with his waterproofing issues, not very becoming for a man of your stature


  57. #122
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Memes such as the term "subpanel" parasitize people into propagating them similar to the way viruses work.

    The continuance of replicating the meme "sub" in place of the more definitive or descriptive term "remote" is a unit of cultural evolution having evolved and survived over the many years of use in the electrical and mechanical trades.

    The term "sub" has mutated from a misunderstanding through misapplication and has recombined with the term "sub-feed" (and other similar terms) used in the code to become an elemental and mutually supportive form which has organized into an adaptive idea used in place of the term "remote".

    The fact that a manufacturer persists in using the term in advertising has no bearing on its authenticity, rather, only in the continuance of an effect after its cause has been removed. This also speaks to it's inclusion in an Article in the NEC.

    Jerry Peck, my self and other educators and instructors can clearly see the need to distance ourselves from the pertinacity associated with this term; thus accounting for Jerry's doggedness toward the same.

    Last edited by Fred Warner; 10-28-2009 at 02:23 PM.

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