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  1. #1
    Joseph Farsetta's Avatar
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    Default Frequently seen electrical defect....

    DID YOU KNOW...

    ... that one of the most frequently seen electrical defect has to do with the wiring of electrical sub-panels? It's true. A majority of sub-panels, which are secondary electrical panels wired to the main electrical panel, require four-conductor feeder cables. Once these conductors reach the sub-panel, the grounded (neutral) conductor and grounding (bare-ground) conductor must be SEPARATED. In fact, the neutral conductor must be on its own termination bus bar, which is not in any way connected to the panel case, or housing. The ground conductor must be connected to the case. In addition to this, each individual branch circuit cable's neutral and ground conductors must also be separated, and correctly terminated onto the corresponding terminal bus bar. Often, inspectors see these wired co-mingled and terminated on a single terminal bus bar. This is a common electrical defect, which related directly to safety, and which must be corrected via re-termination. Sometimes, the feeder cable has an insufficient number of conductors (four are needed) which makes correcting this defect more costly and complicated.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Yep.
    What's your point?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    I find miswired multiwire circuits as often as miswired ground/neutral.

    Department of Redundancy Department
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    While that information is good it was code compliant to only have a 3 wire feeder to a subpanel in a detached structure providing there was no other metallic path between the structures.

    In the case of a properly wired 3 wire feeder the neutrals and grounds are again rebonded the same as the main service.

    Don't get caught without knowing the difference.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    DID YOU KNOW....

    Joe Farsetta is an incompetent Chair of the ESOP, and vendor now a pushy vendor trying to establish himself as reputable and honest vendor here on a reputable board trying to drum up business.

    Me thinks he shouldn't be so stingy and pay for advertising on Inspection News like all the other vendors.


  6. #6
    Joseph Farsetta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    For those asking why I post what I post goes way back to a time when I came to this board multiple times per day. The fact is that there is a lot of knowledge here. I used to come here to learn new things. I enjoyed the banter and occasional hostility. It was fun. The truth is that lots of visitors still come to learn. No matter what you may think, newbies will still go out and inspect... and many times with limited knowledge. So, while my comments may seem quite basic to some, there are others who find them invaluable. And that's why I post what I post. Some disagree with my commentary ( as with the SOP) and in others, my posts may result in assessment and change. Whatever the result, if I help one person, then my posting was successful.


  7. #7
    Julie Weishaar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Raymond,

    I am reading these posts and can't help but notice how you make derogatory accusations against others on this "reputable" board for home inspectors. Joe Farsetta has NOT made a SINGLE reference (nor have I) about his business. He is posting, as are all other inspectors, relevant, thought-provoking industry information for both the newbies and the seasoned professionals. In keeping with the professionalism and purpose of this excellent inspection-industry platform, how about trying to keep your posts/comments relevant to the inspection topic?


  8. #8
    Joseph Farsetta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Excellent point, Jim. You are correct when it comes to detached structures! And, yes, you need to know how to recognize, inspect, and report the differences. My apologies to the seasoned guys out there. But, if Jim's reply helped remove some doubt in a newer inspector's thought process or helped improve someone's inspection technique, then the post was doubly successful.

    You see, guys... the more we focus on relevent things, the better we get at communicating and trying to improve the knowledge base within our industry.

    I'm sorry some folks have a hard time appreciating this.



  9. #9
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Julie

    Derogatory accusations? They are not accusations they are based on facts! Many people have been party to his unwarranted unethical treatment and his inability to act in a befitting manner given his the positions he holds particularly as ESOP Chair. The fact that he is attempting to ingratiate himself here with trivial information is laughable. Besides there are more then enough senior members and qualified knowledgeable people here to make up for any short fall in information.

    If you must ply your wares I suggest you go to the Nacho board where I don't see you proffering anything.


  10. #10
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    Talking Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Wow, you Yorkers stick together pretty good, I see nothing wrong with either of your post from the middle of the country. I'am the bottom feeder of the Inspection industry as you may know, so having me on your side may not mean that much.


  11. #11
    Julie Weishaar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Raymond, we will continue to post relevant industry information on this site as we are both approved members. As Joe stated, if one person can benefit from a post, it is successful. If you choose to continue to use this platform to make character judgements of others, that is your perrogative.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Julie

    I find it rather interesting you touting your employers verbiage, but are you fully cognizant of what Joe has been up to and party too? In particular with his involvement with a false credential CMI - Certified Master Inspector where a number of Canadians have bought into a useless meaningless title that hasn't even begun to meet legally what it was sold as?


  13. #13
    Julie Weishaar's Avatar
    Julie Weishaar Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Raymond, if you would like to continue this conversation, do it off line.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Ray, I think you have lost it!

    You have not added any relevant information to this board since you started posting on it. You do everything in your power to shift threads into your own personal vitriol against INACHi and anyone associated with it that you do not like. For this reason, I have for the first time placed you (or anyone) on the ignore list feature of this bulletin board. I will no longer see your post so hopefully others will do the same.

    Hope it all works out for you, I do think that you could add something to the technical side of this board if you just gave it a try.

    Best!

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Scott

    You obviously have a selective memory, and you have shown just how spiteful you are after lecturing me.

    You are a little man!


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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    For this reason, I have for the first time placed you (or anyone) on the ignore list feature of this bulletin board. I will no longer see your post so hopefully others will do the same.
    Wait, I can do that? Cool.

    Department of Redundancy Department
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Well, it's less than perfect.

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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Farsetta View Post
    In fact, the neutral conductor must be on its own termination bus bar, which is not in any way connected to the panel case, or housing.
    So it just magically hangs there? That's pretty neat! May I be so bold as to suggest another concept - mounting the bar on a plastic standoff without a bonding strap or screw. Now don't take my word for it - I've been wrong before.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Prior to the current code cycle, and in any areas that haven't adopted the 2008 NEC unless local rule are to the contrary, some circumstances permitted installation of a 3 wire feed to a sub panel and attachment of a grounding electrode conductor to the grounded conductor. So, the whether or not the installation is legal will depend on when it was done and the location where it was done.

    And, I can assure you this isn't among the most frequently seen issues, although it is certainly in the top 25 somewhere.

    Way ahead of this on the list are multiple neutrals per terminal on a panel buss, multiple wires on a breaker terminal not listed for more than a single wire, multiwire branch circuits with both hots on the same line buss, oversized breakers for a given wire size, breaker brand mismatch in panel, cables with no clamp where they enter the panel- - and on it goes. Most homes don't even have more than one panel


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Yes, Eric, you are correct. The bus bar is electrically isolated from the panel case, but physically held in place via some insulated material. I should have been clearer. Thank you,

    Bill, while I do agree with you on some of the items you mention, my own experience where a sub panel is installed, is that this is one of the much more common defects I see. The others are right up there, especially double lugged neutrals, or even grounds and neutrals together under a single terminal lug!


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Farsetta View Post
    DID YOU KNOW...

    ... that one of the most frequently seen electrical defect has to do with the wiring of electrical sub-panels? It's true. A majority of sub-panels, which are secondary electrical panels wired to the main electrical panel, require four-conductor feeder cables.

    Joe,

    Hate to tell you this, but MAIN PANELS also require FOUR CONDUCTOR FEEDERS.

    *SERVICE EQUIPMENT* does not require 4-wire feeders.

    Actually, Joe, there is no such thing as a "sub panel" in a house, they are only found in submarines.

    You seem to be one of the ones who are propagating the illusion that there is a wiring difference between so-called "main" panels" and so-called "sub" panels - there is not ... ALL PANELS ARE CREATED EQUALLY ANS ARE WIRED THE SAME.

    THE ONLY PLACE THE NEUTRAL IS BONDED TO GROUND IS AT ... yep, you guessed it ... THE "SERVICE EQUIPMENT".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  22. #22
    Joseph Farsetta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Jerry,

    Nice to see that you haven't changed much through the years.

    Actually, Mr. Peck, I believe you may be incorrect on this one.

    How many conductors would be required on a sub-panel (Yes, Jerry, it's a common term, even among electricians, and is valid for the purposes of this discussion) which only serves devices that require, say 220 volts?


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Farsetta View Post
    How many conductors would be required on a sub-panel (Yes, Jerry, it's a common term, even among electricians, and is valid for the purposes of this discussion) which only serves devices that require, say 220 volts?
    Joe,

    As common as you think it is, it is not a CORRECT TERM and your use of it is even less correct.

    How many conductors to a submarine panel? I've never worked on submarines, so I don't know how they are wired, but they probably have back-up power wired in.

    There are at least 3 conductors required for SERVICE EQUIPMENT:
    - 2 hot phase conductors
    - 1 neutral / ground conductor
    - 1 ground conductor (optional to be separate from the neutral, but which gets bonded to neutral at both of its ends)

    There are 4 conductors required for A PANEL (A PANEL OF ANY TYPE):
    - 2 hot phase conductors
    - 1 hot neutral conductor
    - 1 equipment ground conductor

    If the panel is part of the SERVICE EQUIPMENT then the SERVICE EQUIPMENT gets wired as stated above for SERVICE EQUIPMENT, the panel in it has no controlling nature on how the SERVICE EQUIPMENT is wired.

    ANY PANEL downstream from the SERVICE EQUIPMENT (outside the SERVICE EQUIPMENT enclosure) GETS WIRED THE SAME WAY - presuming, of course, we are discussing 120 volt / 240 volt panels.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Jerry,

    Notwithstanding your incorrect initial statement that main panels require 4-conductor feeders (which is preposterous if you were to apply 310.15 B 6), the remaining (4th)conductor gets covered in 250.50, and is NOT part of the feed. Remember hot-hot-neutral? That is ALL that comes in from the street in a residence, typically. If you have but 120 volts inbound, it's 2 conductors.

    Now, I don't profess being a code expert, as you apparently do, but I have a good grasp of electrical production, routing, and distribution from the public utility to the receptacle. The fact of the matter remains that you have less of a problem with WHAT was said, than WHO said it.

    At least admit it, Jerry. While I have tried to evolve as an educator, author, inspector, and contributor through the years, I can't say that you have ever gotten over the fact that not everyone puts the same spin on things that you do.

    Regarding your technically accurate but inane comments regarding the existence of what are commonly termed as "sub-panels", I agree that nowhere in the NEC is the word found. You are speaking of distribution panels. Whoopee.

    There isn't an electrician on the planet that won't recognize what the term sub-panel means. So, Jerry, its not a submarine panel, or anything else. When I speak of a subpanel, forgive my ignorance. When you are my audience, I will remember to not only use the terminology you want, but I'll try and speak the Queen's english as well.

    Seriously, though... you have FAILED to admit that a distribution panel (happy?) serving only 220 devices do NOT get fed with a 4-conductor feeder. It is simply NOT required.

    You went on to produce a response in RED, instead of answering a simple question; and answering it honestly. Your disdain for me has demeaned your opinion, for even little old me (the non code expert) recognizes shucking and jiving when he sees it.



  25. #25
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Farsetta View Post
    Jerry,

    Notwithstanding your incorrect initial statement that main panels require 4-conductor feeders (which is preposterous if you were to apply 310.15 B 6), the remaining (4th)conductor gets covered in 250.50, and is NOT part of the feed. Remember hot-hot-neutral? That is ALL that comes in from the street in a residence, typically.


    Joe,

    *I* understand, it is apparent that *YOU* do not.

    Remember hot-hot-neutral? That is ALL that comes in from the street in a residence, typically.


    That part you have right, but ...

    You are referring to the SERVICE ENTRANCE CONDUCTORS, and the SERVICE ENTRANCE CONDUCTORS go to the SERVICE EQUIPMENT ... *NOT* ... *NOT* to a "main panel".

    Look it up in the code, you will find that it is SERVICE EQUIPMENT (which is why I have been making that in all caps, hoping that you would catch on to what I am saying, what the code is saying, what is there (which are all the same) and what you are saying (which is different).

    Now, I don't profess being a code expert, as you apparently do, but I have a good grasp of electrical production, routing, and distribution from the public utility to the receptacle.


    Apparently you do not have the grasp of it that you think you do.

    The fact of the matter remains that you have less of a problem with WHAT was said, than WHO said it.


    Joe, you should know by now that *I* do not care *WHO* is saying it wrong, it is still wrong. And in this case it is you are are saying it wrong. Thus, like usual, you are way off base, again.


    At least admit it, Jerry. While I have tried to evolve as an educator, author, inspector, and contributor through the years, I can't say that you have ever gotten over the fact that not everyone puts the same spin on things that you do.


    Joe, I really don't care what you THINK you have accomplished, I am only trying to get you to understand that you are teaching others incorrectly and *I* am educating *YOU* in your incorrect understanding of what you think you know.

    As an educator (you are calling yourself that) you should know that knowing and understanding what is right and correct if the only way you can really educate and teach others the right and correct way.

    If you cannot see and understand that, you are not an educator.


    Your entire post and continued comments showing your lack of knowledge show that you should not be a self-professed educator, at least not until you know and understand the correct and proper way things are.

    I have been trying to make it painfully simple for you - here is a simpler way for you to understand, or at least it is about as simple as it can be made, if you do not understand it, you should not be a self-professed educator.

    First there is the overhead service drop or underground service lateral.

    Then there is the mast with service entrance conductors to the meter or underground service laterals to the meter.

    After that are service entrance conductors from the meter to the service equipment.

    You will notice that, as yet, there are NO PANELS involved, only SERVICE entrance conductors and SERVICE equipment.

    Now, and only now, do you get to PANELS.

    A PANEL may be in the same enclosure as the SERVICE EQUIPMENT, however, SERVICE EQUIPMENT does exist with a PANEL being in its enclosure.

    After the SERVICE EQUIPMENT comes feeders which go to PANELS, which you may call "distribution panels", "loadcenters", "remote panels", etc., but keep in mind that they are all AFTER the SERVICE EQUIPMENT.

    Now, how to address SERVICE EQUIPMENT which also contains a PANEL - that is addressed as SERVICE EQUIPMENT, because that is what it is - and then address the panelboard within it as a panel.

    You are one of those under the mistaken belief that, somehow, for some reason, if you call a "PANEL" a "main"panel or a "sub"panel, that you somehow change the way those PANELS are wired, but you don't, they are only PANELS, and ALL PANELS are wired the same.

    Whereas SERVICE EQUIPMENT is wired differently.

    SERVICE EQUIPMENT is wired where the neutral is bonded to ground.

    PANELS are wired where the neutral is isolated from ground.

    Panels which are located within SERVICE EQUIPMENT are *PART OF* the SERVICE EQUIPMENT which has the neutral bonded to ground ... and this condition does not change whether or not there is a panelboard within the SERVICE EQUIPMENT.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Jerry,

    Beyond the technical doublespeak, you have failed to prove that what I have said is in any way incorrect.

    My initial statement had to do with isolated neutrals (yes, the NEC now recognizes neutral). You just couldn't help yourself in turning this simple observation into something that it didnt have to be.

    Bottom line is that the comment was intended as an observation intended to provide simple information. I am quite sure that there are enough bonafide electrical code experts who have seen what you have wriitten in response, and are scratching theiir heads.

    You have accomplished little here, other that furthering the fact that is aint about technicalities... its about you.

    So, Jerry... putting all the fancy verbiage aside, and recognizing your statement having to do with panels (mains and distribution) requiring 4-conductor feeds... will you admit that you are incorrect?

    Do distribution panels (service, subs, who really cares at this point other than you?) that feed 220 volt appliances ONLY require a 4-wire feed?

    A simple yes or no will suffice.

    One of these words will speak volumes for you as a person, Jerry.

    Tell me, without the flowery code lingo. We all know of what I speak. Tell me. Please


  27. #27
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    While I hesitate to get into the "*issing" contest I will simply state a few points and trust me I will move on and flame me all everyone wishes as like it or not I am an expert in this field of study.

    First, I really do not mind ( even as an educator ) the use of the term "Sub" panel even if it is incorrect perse' because it is widely used in both the electrical industry ( and in publications by leading industry experts ) and in home inspection publications. It is more so a slang for a term remote distribution panel and I honestly don't see where it mis-educates anyone as long as they understand the intent and make it clear...simply is a argument point that is moot in my opinion again as long as they understand what is being talked about. In many of my seminars around the country I even have to call it "sub-panel" so the electricians in the room actually know what I am talking about and then and only then do I explain to them "Sub-Panel" does not exist anywhere in the code but it is what many of them have come to learn so a GOOD educator will roll with it and help them understand without confusing them at this point.

    Second, I believe somewhere I saw where it was stated that 4 conductors must always be run to a remote distribution panel and that is simply not the case. Their are commercial applications where a panel has no need for a "grounded" conductor at all since possibly the loads are all 480V lets say and the NEC® does not require this "grounded" conductor to be run at that specific application. Ofcourse an EGC ( Equipment Grounding Conductor ) would be run to meet the requirements of a low impedance fault current path to aid in the operation of the OCPD ( Overcurrent Protective Device ) but that is a give I hope at this point in many electricians and advanced level home inspectors knowledgebase.

    Third, The NEC® does tell us when a "Grounded" conductor is required to be run and the main one that comes to mind is :

    (C) Grounded Conductor Brought to Service Equipment.
    Where an ac system operating at less than 1000 volts
    is grounded at any point, the grounded conductor(s) shall
    be run to each service disconnecting means and shall be
    connected to each disconnecting means grounded conductor(
    s) terminal or bus. A main bonding jumper shall connect
    the grounded conductor(s) to each service disconnecting
    means enclosure. The grounded conductor(s) shall be installed
    in accordance with 250.24(C)(1) through (C)(3).

    Fourth, I don't like symantics regarding service equipment and main disconnect to be honest with you because their are MANY places in the NEC® that require equipment to be "Service Equipment Rated" and it has nothing to do with actually the service at all. The main understanding of the "Service Equipment" is a piece of equipment designed to allow a proper case to neutral connection, designed for the connection, tested and listed for the application and thus can be used for the application. A main panel can take on alot of meanings but hardly worth any arguments over since most ( and I do speak for thousands of electricians whom I listen too on a regular basis ) think of the main panel as the actual service disconnection means even if they really have no idea what they are thinking....just the nature of THEIR beast, fact is their are main breaker panels everywhere down stream in alot of applications even if a MLO ( Main Lug Only ) was all that was required so when I hear Main Panel from some electricians I know what they are saying and it is pointless for me to confuse them at this point and try to explain that alot of panels are Main Breaker Panels or MCB and so on....it simply does not help the situation and even what comes to MY mind when I hear Main Panel is the Service Disconnection Means and not Service Equipment since we established that "Service Equipment" is a designation of the panel use and many other applications call for a panel that is "Service Equipment Rated"...so honestly I don't get confused when I hear the students speak of both even if they are sometimes incorrect. I just correct them if needed and work with their understanding and continue to educate.

    I have to admit I have not spent the time to read all the posts so I don't claim to be privy to all that is being discussed and I really don't want to since I don't really help out here much and I am way too busy to start but I figured I would say a few things on the concept and leave it be...

    Let's also remember that prior to the 2008 NEC® it was perfectly legal to install a 3-wire setup to a detached structure per NEC® 250.32 as long as their were no metallic paths between the two structures. The grounded electrode system requirement at the detached structure plays only the role it is dealt....from that remote distribution panel to the GES ( Grounded Electrode System ) and nothing more. The conductors feeding this panel could have been make up of (2) Ungrounded Conductors and (1) Grounded Conductor and it would have met the code, not the case in the 2008 NEC® and to me was a great move ( one that I have been pushing for over the years in proposals ) but never the less was a 3 wire system to a panel and was legal and still is even in the 2008 NEC® for existing applications where it has already been legally done.

    Teaching ( my opinion ) is not always about getting the lingo 100% correct and more about the connection with the student, knowing they get the understanding of what I am saying and they take something away from it. I don't want to turn Home Inspectors into Electricians and I dont want Electricians playing Home Inspector either but letting them meet somewhere in the middle make everyone happy and everyone learns.

    Take it from me......while debate is good....hate is not...lets all just sit and educate.


    Last edited by Paul W Abernathy; 10-03-2009 at 06:18 AM.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Farsetta View Post
    So, Jerry... putting all the fancy verbiage aside, and recognizing your statement having to do with panels (mains and distribution) requiring 4-conductor feeds... will you admit that you are incorrect?
    Joe,

    You still don't understand wiring, do you?

    My statement that ALL PANELS are wired the same, and that they require 4 conductors, 2-hots, 1-neutral, and 1-ground is not incorrect ... it is precisely correct.

    Your statement trying to say that there is a difference in wiring between some panels you try to re-label as "main" and "sub" panels and that they are wired differently is incorrect. And you are still refusing to admit that.

    Do distribution panels (service, subs, who really cares at this point other than you?) that feed 220 volt appliances ONLY require a 4-wire feed?

    A simple yes or no will suffice.
    Joe, if you would ask a correct question, it could be answered with a yes or a no.

    Can ANYTHING which is 240 volts ONLY (i.e., NOT 120 volt / 240 volt) be wired without a neutral? If that is what you are trying to ask, the answer to that is "Yes.", and that includes 240 volt ONLY electrical equipment and appliances.

    Those 240 volt ONLY equipment and appliances require 2-hots and 1- equipment ground.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul W Abernathy View Post
    First, I really do not mind ( even as an educator ) the use of the term "Sub" panel even if it is incorrect perse' because it is widely used in both the electrical industry ( and in publications by leading industry experts ) and in home inspection publications. It is more so a slang for a term remote distribution panel and I honestly don't see where it mis-educates anyone as long as they understand the intent and make it clear...simply is a argument point that is moot in my opinion again as long as they understand what is being talked about. In many of my seminars around the country I even have to call it "sub-panel" so the electricians in the room actually know what I am talking about and then and only then do I explain to them "Sub-Panel" does not exist anywhere in the code but it is what many of them have come to learn so a GOOD educator will roll with it and help them understand without confusing them at this point.

    Paul,

    The problem with people like Joe being an educator and using the "main" and "sub" panel terminology is that he teaches that the neutral is bonded to ground at a "main" panel and not bonded to ground at a "sub" panel when a "main" panel is NOT part of the "service equipment" in all referenced cases and the neutral is bonded to ground "at the service equipment".

    MANY parts of this country have installation which have a main service disconnect on the exterior which is separate from "the panel", which then becomes (for those who feel a need to try to label panels either "main" or 'sub") the one and only panel, which would be a "main" panel because it is "the only panel".

    Thus, it is confusing to many in many parts of the country where the main service disconnect is separate from the panel.

    MANY home inspectors come on here confused about where the neutral is bonded to ground and thinking it is at "the main panel" where there is only one panel, which is downstream from "the service equipment" ... and the neutral is only bonded to ground at the service equipment, not at any panel.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Jerry,

    I think what we need to understand is that any education is far superior to no education. As an educator myself ( and I wont comment on if I am a good one or a bad one as at this point in my career I let my body of work speak for itself ) it is all about the symantics of the presentation.

    In a normal service disconnection setting the service disconnect is located within the enclosure to which a panelboard is installed and it has a main circuit breaker or fuse which serves as the service disconnection means. This panel will be fed with 3 conductors in a typical 120/240V 3 wire setup and again is rather typical. Indeed, In many parts of the country the service disconnection means is located outside at an exterior enclosure as you stated...and it is still an enclosure with an service disconnection means and indeed (4) conductors will leave it to the remote distribution panel located somewhere else within the dwelling.....very typical in many area's of the country and is typically refered to by many as a "Sub-Panel"...again I can't say where the term actually come from but I have heard it used my entire 25+ years in this industry...yes that dates back to when I was a green helper for my brother at the ripe age of 15 years old.

    I guess over the years I have come to understand the loose slang used and can adapt to teaching all levels of technical education when it comes to electrical topics. We also have to remember that lets take Virginia for example ( ok...no Virginia or West Virginia Jokes Please ) the installation of choice is the meter outside directly back to back with the cabinet enclosure which contains the panelboard with the service disconnection means main breaker....which is of course service rated.

    I believe i guess the biggest hurdle for HI's ( and I have been working with them for many years now ) is understanding the issues of grounding and bonding. I explain to them in many ways that the GEC( grounding electrode conductor ) must connect to the grounded conductor via the grounded terminal bar at the service disconnection means ( and two other locations the NEC Allows...that I wont go into because this is not an educational moment )...while a supplimental grounding electrode conductor does not need to as it has many other locations on the GES it can connect to per the NEC®....but alas it usually takes images and graphics to get the point accross.......

    The point is....Electrical Issues are not easy for anyone and I don't expect HI's to be experts on it in the same nature I dont expect a brain surgeon to do a triple bypass operation.....I think Mr. Farsetta's intentions were good and he is trying to help people and I also think your intentions are good as you are also trying to help people......the in between tends to direct others away from education and then both are hurt in the process...just my two cents on that issue.

    One of the issues I can reflect back to in the years of watching the NEC® evolve is the Section 250.32 triumphs of old. If we had no metallic paths between the detached structure and the dwelling in this example then we could run a 3 wire setup to the detached structure and install a GES ( Grounded Electrode System ) at the detached structure and bond the grounded conductor to the case and the connection is made between grounded conductors and grounding conductors....while it took us time in earlier cycles to get this type of problem removed in similiar situations like Dryer and range applications it has come full circle and now not allowed in the 2008 NEC® with regards to detached structures and I applaud the process for it and take alot of pride in being apart of it......

    In the end...I don't educate here....and I really dont contribute here so these are just my observations. I am not here to step on anyones toes or build a case for anything...i have my own forum to do that but I think the proper approach would have been for everyone involved to stop and look at how we could re-word a lesson to make it a better lesson and much like revisions to the printed book.....have it evolve with everyones input.

    Alas....I am gone guys.......Don't be afraid to visit my site and chat it up


  31. #31
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul W Abernathy View Post
    In a normal service disconnection setting the service disconnect is located within the enclosure to which a panelboard is installed and it has a main circuit breaker or fuse which serves as the service disconnection means.

    Paul,

    That's the fallacy of your assumption, and the fallacy of the assumption for those who continue to think, and say, and teach, that the "main" panel is the same as the "service equipment".

    In many areas of the country the service equipment is stand alone from the panel.

    Thus, thinking, saying, and teaching an assumption which does not apply across the board to all installations is simply wrong.

    On the flip side, though, and as I keep saying, the "service equipment" *IS ALWAYS* ... without fail ... *ALWAYS* ... where the neutral is bonded to ground - whether or not there is a panel as part of the "service equipment" or not.

    Not only is that correct in *ALL* instances, it is also the way the code addressed it.

    Think, say, and teach it that way and you will be correct in *ALL* cases *ALL* the time.

    I am not sure why that concept is so difficult for some to understand.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Ok Mr. Peck.....I conceed to your superior intelligence and will simply refrain from assisting anyone on here in the future. Guess my experience, knowledge and years of assisting thousands of electrical students and home inspectors is all for nothing......enjoy your forum.

    I don't have the time nor the desire to get into arguments over symantics and word twisting. I will not loose any sleep over an educator somewhere in the country teaching Home Inspectors about improper case to neutral connections and calling a remote distribution panel a "Sub-Panel"....but then again that is me.....I am one of the unknown educators who don't call it a Sub-Panel but actually dont care that others do if the student knows what the topic is really about......

    Have a nice day......


  33. #33
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul W Abernathy View Post
    Ok Mr. Peck.....I conceed to your superior intelligence and will simply refrain from assisting anyone on here in the future. Guess my experience, knowledge and years of assisting thousands of electrical students and home inspectors is all for nothing......enjoy your forum.
    Paul,

    Not superior intelligence or anything like that, simply stating the obvious: Why teach one variation of service equipment as though it is ALWAYS the only choice? Why not teach the obvious way which is correct in every instance instead of just one specific setup?

    It's not me which says that, it is the NEC, and as an electric guru (which is what your avatar says you are) you should know and understand the correct way, which is correct in all cases, not one which is only correct in one installation configuration yet you are teaching as being correct in all?

    That is what I do not understand - why you are continuing to choose to fore go what the NEC itself addresses and insist that your way is the only way when in fact it is not even the NEC way.

    I don't have the time nor the desire to get into arguments over symantics and word twisting.
    No word twisting going on by me - *I* am simply stating what the NEC states, *YOU*, on the other hand, are stating that one configuration always applies, when in fact it does not.

    I am one of the unknown educators who don't call it a Sub-Panel but actually dont care that others do if the student knows what the topic is really about......
    That is good, but the problem is that many do not understand that what you are saying is not applicable in all cases, that it is only applicable in the one case you are referring to, and that is because, as you explained it above, your way applies to all installations, when in fact it only applies to that one specific installation setup.

    So why not teach the way which will always be correct, the way which will not create confusion when other approved installation setups are inspected?

    Not sure why you are continuing to resist the way which is always correct and instead keep defending a single installation setup as though it is applicable to all installation setups.

    As an educator, it seems to me that you would want to teach your students the way which is always correct - that it is "service equipment" and that the neutral is bonded to ground at the "service equipment".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Mr. Peck,

    Firstly, you must come from a long line of "ASSUMERS" in that you assume I teach the term "Sub-Panel". If you actually took the time to READ my posts I have made you would not accuse me but rather understand that as an educator I listen to the term "Sub-Panel" and have a unique ability to take that person who is using it, educate them and at the time understand why they are using it and redirect them into the right way to use it...not belittle them in the process of learning.

    Secondly, Since you seem to say I teach the term "Sub-Panel" I will point you to page 37 of my book on "How to perform electrical inspections" and you will clearly see I explain that the term "Sub-Panel" does not exist in the NEC® ....so accusing me of teaching something a certain way without 1.) knowing me and 2.) even reading my prevous posts is for an educator quite annoying.

    Never assume anything...and YES...I am the Electrical Guru because people learn from me without having to hear the belittled garbage that could come out of a good teaching lesson. I answer peoples questions in a way "THEY" can understand it and then take the time to re-educate them when they understand but might not fully grasp the concept...This is an educator......this is why Mike Holt has me in his 2008 NEC Video's, this is why the State of Virginia listened to me when I spoke up about continued education, this is why I have articles in magazines on electrical topics and this is why I did a training video for INACHI.org........because I educate and not breed hate.........

    I am done on this topic.....you may bash me at will.....but the fact is we are two different people and you have not read nor understood my posts and have formed your OWN opinion of my teaching style which is incorrect.....It is in PRINT my stance on the term "Sub-Panel" nd it has not waivered here........

    You have a good day sir.......Please say hi to Joe for me as I am sure you are both good friends.

    BTW..if you dont have the luxury of actually owning my book......here is part of page 37 and 38. However, I am sure you will not like it either and cast stones from glass houses.....Oh...remember in one of your prevous posts...you called the neutral ground....it's grounded conductor...lets not educate them wrong please.

    Grounded Conductor.
    A system or circuit conductor that
    is intentionally grounded.


    Service Panels


    A service panel is a distribution or load center that contains the main disconnecting means. This is the ONLY panel where the neutral and grounds should be joined (bonded) together.

    Distribution Panels


    Distribution panels, or load-side panels, are downstream from the panel containing the main service disconnect(s). In these panels, the neutral and grounds should be separate, and the neutral bus should be isolated from the panel enclosure.
    The only exception to this is in existing detached structures where no metallic path exists between the structures. In this exception, a connection between the grounded conductor and the metal case via a bonding jumper is permitted. According to the 2008 NEC, this is not allowed in new construction, so, in all cases, a 4-wire feed to the detached structure is required in order to isolate the grounded conductors from the equipment grounding conductors.
    There are two methods of providing ground continuity back to the service panel:

    1. four conductor feeders with:
    • two hot or ungrounded conductors;
    • one neutral or grounded conductor; and
    • one equipment grounding conductor.
    2. three conductor feeders with:
    • two hot or ungrounded conductors;
    • one neutral or grounded conductor; and
    • equipment grounding through conduit/tubing, electrically linking the two panels (allowed by section 250.118 of the NEC).
    Mr. Peck's Quote:
    Joe,

    As common as you think it is, it is not a CORRECT TERM and your use of it is even less correct.


    How many conductors to a submarine panel? I've never worked on submarines, so I don't know how they are wired, but they probably have back-up power wired in.

    There are at least 3 conductors required for SERVICE EQUIPMENT:
    - 2 hot phase conductors
    - 1 neutral / ground conductor-OPPS!!!!
    - 1 ground conductor (optional to be separate from the neutral, but which gets bonded to neutral at both of its ends)

    There are 4 conductors required for A PANEL (A PANEL OF ANY TYPE):
    - 2 hot phase conductors
    - 1 hot neutral conductor
    - 1 equipment ground conductor

    If the panel is part of the SERVICE EQUIPMENT then the SERVICE EQUIPMENT gets wired as stated above for SERVICE EQUIPMENT, the panel in it has no controlling nature on how the SERVICE EQUIPMENT is wired.

    ANY PANEL downstream from the SERVICE EQUIPMENT (outside the SERVICE EQUIPMENT enclosure) GETS WIRED THE SAME WAY - presuming, of course, we are discussing 120 volt / 240 volt panels.


    Last edited by Paul W Abernathy; 10-04-2009 at 08:20 AM.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul W Abernathy View Post
    Mr. Peck's Quote:


    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Joe,

    As common as you think it is, it is not a CORRECT TERM and your use of it is even less correct.

    How many conductors to a submarine panel? I've never worked on submarines, so I don't know how they are wired, but they probably have back-up power wired in.

    There are at least 3 conductors required for SERVICE EQUIPMENT:
    - 2 hot phase conductors
    - 1 neutral / ground conductor (Paul wrote OOPS!! here, but there is not OOPS!! here - see below)
    - 1 ground conductor (optional to be separate from the neutral, but which gets bonded to neutral at both of its ends)

    There are 4 conductors required for A PANEL (A PANEL OF ANY TYPE):
    - 2 hot phase conductors
    - 1 hot neutral conductor
    - 1 equipment ground conductor

    If the panel is part of the SERVICE EQUIPMENT then the SERVICE EQUIPMENT gets wired as stated above for SERVICE EQUIPMENT, the panel in it has no controlling nature on how the SERVICE EQUIPMENT is wired.

    ANY PANEL downstream from the SERVICE EQUIPMENT (outside the SERVICE EQUIPMENT enclosure) GETS WIRED THE SAME WAY - presuming, of course, we are discussing 120 volt / 240 volt panels.
    There are at least 3 conductors required for SERVICE EQUIPMENT:
    - 2 hot phase conductors
    - 1 neutral / ground conductor (Paul wrote OOPS!! here, but there is not OOPS!! here - see below)
    - 1 ground conductor (optional to be separate from the neutral, but which gets bonded to neutral at both of its ends)

    Paul,

    I see you are into making assumptions too.

    The above was stating that there are 2-hot phase UNGROUNDED conductors, 1-neutral GROUNDED conductor, and 1-GROUNDING conductor.

    I was listing them in numerical order as follows:
    - 2 hot phase conductors
    - 1 neutral / ground conductor

    Now, remember, Paul, this is for service entrance conductors, and the neutral serves double duty as a groundED conductor and a groundING conductor, thus the neutral is a "neutral / ground".

    Thus there is 1 neutral / ground conductor and 2 hot phase conductors.

    ADDITIONALLY ... one may ... MAY ... but is not required to ... install a separate groundING conductor, thus I added " - 1 ground conductor (optional to be separate from the neutral, but which gets bonded to neutral at both of its ends)" - Paul, note the "OPTIONAL TO BE SEPARATE FROM THE NEUTRAL" part.

    Seems you were so intent to jump on me that you did not actually read and comprehend what I was stating.

    Do you understand it now? If so, do you concur?

    Paul, don't worry about the red text, I used it as Joe used blue text, for whatever reasons Joe had, he did not want to use the normal black text, so I replied with red text to separate it from the normal black text as (I guess) to Joe it has special meaning to not use black text.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  36. #36
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    lol....so you see..it is not about you knowing what Ground versus Grounded means.....it is that without reading the entire posts being made you can't make assumptions......I believe I have made my point and sorry I had to post it to get you to reply....see the fact is I knew what you were saying....even if maybe all the proper terms where not being used....

    An educator knows how to work around this........and correct when needed and not turn it into a *issing contest......However you need to look at the definitions in the National Electrical Code of which you speak.

    It may serve a double duty....but it does have a name for the duty to which it serves. When we educate about the conductor to which is intentially connected to ground it becomes the grounded conductor.

    Ground.
    The earth.

    Grounded Conductor.
    A system or circuit conductor that
    is intentionally grounded.

    Grounded (Grounding).
    Connected (connecting) to
    ground or to a conductive body that extends the ground
    connection.

    Ahhh...but you did not say "grounded" conductor as you claim...you said and I quote:
    - 1 neutral / ground conductor


    Why cause confusion in the terms since you don't give electricians or home inspectors credit for knowing your "/" means dual purpose....anyway my point is made........don't throw stones when you live in a glass house...I never said anything about teaching people to use the term "sub-Panel" but you did infer people to confuse "ground" with "grounded"....I didn't.

    Why am I even going into this with you.....oh thats right you assumed false information about my teaching style...thats right..I remember now.




  37. #37
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Also....what is your point.

    Eternal savior of the Home Inspection Industry, to embark on defaming other educators for self promotion? Go back to the original post, do a search on MikeHolt.Com and read some of Mr. Holt's technical information and see if he ever uses the term "Sub-Panel"...newsflash....it gets used and not because he does not know the difference....but because we went with the flow of the question being asked.....and adapted it to the person learning as that is what Mr. Holt is good at....teaching people.

    If Mr.Farsetta wants to train HI's and call it a "Sub-Panel" and say the reason it is that is because it is a sub structured system of the electrical panelboard structure....then all the power to him.....who made you god of educators and primevil controller of Mr. Farsetta's teaching style?

    OH...BTW..I was wrong.....Subpanel does appear in the 2008 NEC...lol...my mistake

    409.2 Definitions.
    Control Circuit. The circuit of a control apparatus or system
    that carries the electric signals directing the performance
    of the controller but does not carry the main power
    current.

    Industrial Control Panel.
    An assembly of two or more
    components consisting of one of the following:

    (1) Power circuit components only, such as motor controllers,

    overload relays, fused disconnect switches, and
    circuit breakers
    (2) Control circuit components only, such as pushbuttons,
    pilot lights, selector switches, timers, switches, control
    relays
    (3) A combination of power and control circuit
    components
    These components, with associated wiring and terminals,
    are mounted on or contained within an enclosure or
    mounted on a subpanel. The industrial control panel does
    not include the controlled equipment.

    I know......but then again I don't think their version of "Subpanel" is located in a submarine either....gotta ask the CMP on that one.

    The point is....who cares.....I don't use the term "sub-panel" and speak againsts it in my book, video's and seminars...but far be it for me to tell Mr. Farsetta how to speak about it or degrade his ability because of it...and if his johnson is longer than mine or feet are bigger...hell man I dont care....as long as his INTENT is to give proper methods I can correct the "sub-panel" fiction at the NEXT level of education....

    The point is....Home Inspectors are not Electricians and they don't want to be. They are not Electrical Code Officials and don't want to be....They understand what a "sub-panel" is....and they know it is not the service disconnection means.....give them credit for knowing something man !

    If they all want to know that the term "Sub-Panel" really is.....buy my book...heck I dont get any of the proceeds from it....just a name on the cover and a pat on the back.........I did it because I care about the Home Inspectors.....nothing more...nothing less.

    Inclosing, my point is I dont even know you Mr. Peck. I have no opinion of you and I have never read anything by you. I have never met Mr. Farsetta either but I know of the man and he does try to help educate and make things better for Home Inspectors. His intent of his original post was to educate and not partake in a Tit-for-tate over symantics of a term used by millions of people whom I will NEVER get a chance to educate....but alteast he is trying to help...and now we have who knows how many pages of WORTHLESS BANTER of a freakin term "Sub-Panel"....quite frankly I am ashamed to even be aprt of the freakin debate.......maybe he used a term that was technically not correct....you knew his intent and well saw fit to slam him for a weakness in the delivery......come on now.....are we not professionals?






    Last edited by Paul W Abernathy; 10-04-2009 at 11:30 AM.

  38. #38
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Mr. Peck,

    You need to understand a few things. We have alot educators around the country using the term "SubPanel" and they are not your everyday throw away educators you speak of.

    1.) Visit mike holts website and notice a book being sold regarding EMF and by an EMF expert in the electrical industry. Here is a snippit of what he says and is supported by Mr. Holt in sales.

    ELF Magnetic Surveys
    Tracing EMFs in Building Wiring and Grounding,
    by Karl Riley, 133p, many illustrations, MSI, 1995, $28.00
    Mike Holt)

    Notice his use of the term "SubPanel" in his publication.

    Illustrated Guide to the National Electrical Code- By Charles Miller ( whom I hold high respect for ) uses the term SUBPANEL on no less than (4) specfic pages of his publications in the same nature as Mr. Farsetta uses it. View pages 168, 182, 195 and 238. You can view these on google right now without owning the book.

    How about Mr. James Stallcup, a well respected author and is endorsed by the NFPA® as well as selling his books nationwide via their NFPA® website...he uses the term "subpanel" in his book on section 2-1 to describe it in just the nature Mr. Farsetta has used it.....You do know Mr. Stallcup right?

    How about Phil Simmons, another WELL respected electrical educator who uses the term in his book called Electrical Grounding and Bonding. I would consider him the leading authority on the subject to be honest with you and he makes reference to the term "SUBPANEL" on page 206 of his very popular book...yes I have this one also...I love his work....

    Now....how about Page 399 of the very popular NEC 2008 mcgraw-hill handbook....where they use the term: Copied below;


    equipment enclosures or any other grounded parts on the load side of the service.


    That is, bonding of equipment-grounding and neutral buses within subpanels (or any other connection between the neutral or other grounded conductor and equipment enclosures) is prohibited by the NEC Code.



    Or yet again here

    grounded system conductor to a grounding electrode (through the enclosure

    and raceway system to the water pipe or driven ground rod). Such connections,
    like bonding of subpanels, can be dangerous, as shown in Fig. 250-13.




    and yet again in the figure 250-13 they talk about...see the quote below under the figure.


    Fig. 250-13. NEC prohibits bonding of subpanels because of these reasons.
    (Sec. 250.24.)




    and yet again on page 417.........see below:


    exactly the same as any wiring within the originating building that originates in a subpanel. The previous allowance for bonding equipment grounding and grounded circuit conductors at the building disconnect for the second building


    I could go on...and on...and on...and on.......so you have a busy job ahead of you Mr. Peck in that their are alot of well known and well respected electrical educators out their in the same company as Mr. Farsetta using the term "subpanel" in their publications and as educators.

    Oh wait...yet even again in the 2008 mcgraw-hill 2008 NEC Handbook..

    is common in many parts of the country, with an outdoor service panel
    breaking out major loads and an indoor subpanel supplying the various
    lighting, small appliance, and receptacle circuits. A panelboard with two
    main breakers is covered in the next topic.




    Wait..what about the REAL NEC® endorsed handbook....lets check...


    Yep....check their commentary under 250.96(A), Their exhibit 250.45, 250.146 commentary , 408.40 commentary but I digress......you need to also call Jeffrey Seargent and Mark Early and inform them also to not use the term "subpanel" in their commentary to explain the NEC®...are they not educators?

    Honestly...did you really want to turn down that path?????



    Last edited by Paul W Abernathy; 10-04-2009 at 12:38 PM.

  39. #39
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul W Abernathy View Post
    Mr. Peck,

    You need to understand a few things. We have alot educators around the country using the term "SubPanel" and they are not your everyday throw away educators you speak of.

    Paul,

    I see you have now slipped into the same trap you tried to set for me, and you have been bitten by that trap as well ...

    You came here and interrupted and interjected into a discussion things not pertinent to the discussion, and when the the discussion continued, you are now trying to apply the discussion to others outside those being discussed.

    The discussion started with, and was about, Joe and what Joe was stating ... not about Mike Holt and others (who state other things). In trying to turn the discussion away from the topic being discussed, you made an typical educator mistake - thinking that you can interrupt a discussion and make it applicable to what you what it to be applicable to, instead of being applicable to what, and who, was being discussed and trying to lead those discussion to the right ending.

    Your last 2-3 posts (too many to bother counting in a single repetitive response trying to make a point outside the discussion) show you really are only coming here to try to toot your own horn. Why is not my concern, but the discussion was, and is, about what was being discussed, not about your interjection of others.

    You still have not responded to the fact that "service equipment" is where the neutral (groundED conductor) gets bonded to ground (the ground established by the groundING electrode conductor being groundED to the service equipment enclosure and in turn groundING that to the groundING electrode system, which establishes a earth GROUND) and that the point of bonding the neutral (groundED conductor) to the ground has nothing to do with any panel, whatever name you want to call it, which includes calling it a "main" panel.

    The only point (location) of bonding the neutral to ground is at the "service equipment" ... not at a so called "main" panel.

    You can continue to try your distractions, and continue to ignore the discussion, but that will simply show your real self - whatever that is you want to show us. Your call.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  40. #40
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Give it up, guys. You don't have enough time on your hands to out post Jerry.

    It ain't YOU!

    It's the "sub-panel" thingy he's after.

    He's been hammering on it everytime it comes up for the last umpteen years.

    Almost funny now, I've seen it so many times.

    -

    Erby Crofutt, Georgetown, KY - Read my Blog here: Erby the Central Kentucky Home Inspector B4 U Close Home Inspections www.b4uclose.com www.kentuckyradon.com
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  41. #41
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Agreed Erby...it is pointless as the TRAP is Mr. Farsetta is in good company with many well known educators around the country who do teach to electricians and do use the proper terms and still happen to use the term "subpanel" in their publications. Why, because they feel the term needed in getting their point accross.

    Clearly he has not read any of my work or he would know I don't use the term "SubPanel" in my educational moments....but if an educator does It would not bother me in the least......

    The only TRAP is admiting when you are wrong and beating a dead horse for many, many years ( or post counts ) it seems.

    You go right ahead Mr. Farsetta and use the term "SUBPANEL" if you wish, the educators who know what you are talking about will smooth out the rough ends down the line....just keep up the education fella.

    In the end...I don't wish to keep pace with you Mr. Peck as I don't even consider you worthy of my time.....have a nice day !


  42. #42
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    You still have not responded to the fact that "service equipment" is where the neutral (groundED conductor) gets bonded to ground (the ground established by the groundING electrode conductor being groundED to the service equipment enclosure and in turn groundING that to the groundING electrode system, which establishes a earth GROUND) and that the point of bonding the neutral (groundED conductor) to the ground has nothing to do with any panel, whatever name you want to call it, which includes calling it a "main" panel.

    The only point (location) of bonding the neutral to ground is at the "service equipment" ... not at a so called "main" panel.


    lol....now I am not sure where to begin but "Service Equipment" is the nature of the equipment. Do you even know what actually makes it service equipment...probably not. However, the location to which the grounded conductor ( yes, grounded conductor ) makes it connection to the electrical system is where 250.24(A) allows us to....this is not hard to understand.....is it?

    Trust me, I am not a person you wish to get into a code debate with and I don't really have time to play your little games on such petty issues.

    Please take the time to read 250.24(A)(1)


    (A) System Grounding Connections.
    A premises wiring

    system supplied by a grounded ac service shall have a
    grounding electrode conductor connected to the grounded
    service conductor, at each service, in accordance with
    250.24(A)(1) through (A)(5).

    (1) General.


    The grounding electrode conductor connection

    shall be made at any accessible point from the load end
    of the service drop or service lateral to and including the
    terminal or bus to which the grounded service conductor is
    connected at the service disconnecting means.

    But anyway...you are correct and I am new to this forum and can only guess you got upset with Mr.Farsetta because he is stepping on your "electrical toes" and you are not happy about it....it's all good.

    Be sure to tell me how it goes when you get off the phone with Mr. Karl Riley, James Stallcup, Charles Miller, Phil Simmons, Mark Early and lets not forget Jeffrey Sargent. Please inform them of their improper use of the term "subpanel"....let me know how that works out for you...

    Oh please also give Mr. Mike Holt a call and tell him that Mike Culbreath needs to change all those graphics in his books that he labels as "MAIN" which is in many of his images the actual service disconnection means being depicted in his representations of service equipment.......lord knows we don't want that corupting the legends of future electricians.

    So lets jump back to the 2005 NEC.....you say the only place you would bond a "grounded" conductor to ground is at the service equipment. Then we are going to have one heck of a time explaining 250.32 to some of the electricians still using the 2005 NEC in regards to detached structures. The last I checked ( and yes, Virginia is still on the 2005 NEC ) 3 wire to a detached structure was acceptable if the conditions were met...and ofcourse you establish a GES at that detached structure. You would have to bond the grounded conductor to the case and thus ground via the GEC of that detached structures GES. Now, I am not in the mood to give you a lesson on the application but since we know the electrical enclosure and panelboard at that seperate enclosure has to be suitable as service equipment...it is not and I am sure you will agree not in itself a service but it is indeed service equipment by nature of 225.36's mandate.

    So why are you even bringing this up???....we all know that the location where the GEC connection to the grouded conductor takes place in service equipment....who has debated that???....the debate is on the use of the term "SubPanel" and Mr. Farsetta's use of it if my memory serves me right...

    FYI....their are many panels out their installed in a remote distribution setup that are rated as service equipment....that does not make that the location the GEC must be connected too so I fail to see your point or why you think it is a question that needs to be answered.

    The questions were.......is it wrong for Mr. Farsetta to use the term "subpanel" in his education to which you began your blast of him. It has come to light that many high profile electrical educators also use the term in their publications. You appear to have a problem with him calling the Service Disconnection Means a "MAIN" yet most of the electrical panelboards today on the market have a sticker labled "MAIN" and one of the leading educators in the country actually produces images with this label on the service disconnection means depicted in his graphics as "Main"........none of which are grounds to berate Mr. Farsetta's teaching ability or judgement as an educator.

    Ok....I am done with you Mr. Peck. If you wish to really get into some CODE debates that will actually teach you something maybe you could visit my site...The Electrical Guru - Bring your electrical questions to the Electrical Guru ! and we shall explain some finer points of electrical education...until then....BASH AWAY......it appears to be in good standing of the company you keep.









  43. #43
    Joseph Farsetta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Jerry,

    You wrote the following as a rebuttal to one of Paul Abernathy’s posts:

    "thinking that you can interrupt a discussion and make it applicable to what you what it to be applicable to, instead of being applicable to what, and who, was being discussed and trying to lead those discussion to the right ending"

    I think I got whiplash from reading that one....

    "Why is not my concern, but the discussion was, and is, about what was being discussed, not about your interjection of others."


    Whoa... nearly lost it with that one, as well. Excedrin headache # 250..

    "You still have not responded to the fact that "service equipment" is where the neutral (groundED conductor) gets bonded to ground (the ground established by the groundING electrode conductor being groundED to the service equipment enclosure and in turn groundING that to the groundING electrode system, which establishes a earth GROUND) and that the point of bonding the neutral (groundED conductor) to the ground has nothing to do with any panel, whatever name you want to call it, which includes calling it a "main" panel. "


    Now you’ve done is… My head is spinning.

    Honestly... your point is totally lost in your frustration and apparent fury at those who do not subscribe to the Gospel of electricity according to Jerry Peck. I am truly sorry I have upset you. However, I standby my initial comments, and submit that they are far more helpful than the gobbledygook you have attempted to hammer me with for the last day and a half.

    To with, you have now back-peddled away from the sarcasm you threw in my direction, talking of submarine panels. When Mr. Abernathy pointed out that the reference does exist, and more importantly is RECOGNIZED by industry experts, you start spinning out of control. Come on, Jerry… You are much better than this.

    But, I digress. Why I chose to lower myself to your level is beyond me. In the future, I will likely regard your rebuffs as comments of a bitter person.


    I'll leave you with this...

    The difference between educators is where a so-called “educator” truly believes that education is a science, where in actuality it is an ART.




    You speak of science and the written word in terms of absolutes. If we are speaking of quantum physics and the laws of the Universe, then perhaps your argument carries some merit. Unfortunately, we are not.



    As one who professes to be an expert at the NEC and its many interpretations (while I am not), I may also remind you that the NEC is full of alternates, and some contradictions. It serves as the electrical bible for minimum safety standards of electrical installations. It does not speak of theory or concepts. It does not explain every chapter and verse. It is a guide. Simply because a word is not seen in its content, does not mean that the word does not exist, or should be ignored. You of all should know that. But back to the subject of education...



    Where the inspection concepts and facts I offer are made for the everyman, yours are not. That's really okay.



    When an educator offers a tidbit or idea in the classroom, he or she needs to do so in a way that keeps the student interested, and spur the thought process. Sometimes, that means painting a mental picture. Often, follow on comments or questions serve to clarify or make for interesting discussion. Its rarely one sided, as in education this is counter-productive.



    To Paul Abernathy's comments and insight... Here we have a working electrical and NEC expert who holds a position as such, getting your point yet offering an alternative; a bridge if you will between what is the difference between technical correctness and practical knowledge and application. Instead of self reflecting, as I have through this thread, you have chosen to take a defensive position, to the point of attacking Mr. Abernathy. This was predictable on your part. But, Jerry… there is nothing to get defensive about.



    I ask you to put yourself in the shoes of the average, or above average home inspector. Now please read your many posts, especially the ones where you seemingly talk in circles in an effort to discredit me (I don’t particularly care, by the way).



    Now ask yourself how many students you would have lost by the second paragraph. Although you think I don’t understand electrical theory, you are so far off the mark it is laughable. Sometime I'll tell you of the electrical projects I oversee.



    THAT's the difference between you and I, Jerry. That's why I am regarded as a quality educator. In this world, there is black and white and grey. Educators understand grey, and more importantly, shades of grey. Educators are typically HUNGRY for more education. I consider myself to be in that category.



    In practice, many inspectors are weak, or under some common misconceptions, in electrical areas. As we deal with different eras of construction in our practices, different iterations of various codes apply. As code inspections are not a part of a home inspection, intricate details of codes and interpretations of codes need not be known to the level of detail you suggest we should all know. Teaching to the written word of the NEC is not what this is about. Concepts are what this is all about.



    As I have stated, if my comment evoked thought and someone benefitted from it, I was successful. If another comment to mine evoked further thought, knowledge, or clarification, then I was doubly successful.



    Other than trying to discredit me, what was your purpose? Absolute correctness?



    Okay... if that was your intent, then you could have approached it differently. You may have started with something like "Hey Joe, good thoughts, but I'd like to expand on this concept and get into what the NEC describes as panels and disconnects..." Could you have done this? Sure. So why did you choose not to? Must be something much deeper.



    I submit that my thoughts were not the issue, as is supported by Mr. Abernathy's spin on the discussion you have chastised him for entering. The fact that the initial posting came from ME is the issue. The only thing you have accomplished is your uncanny ability to talk technicalities to the point of nearly boring me to death.



    For future classes I teach, where I may choose to speak in generalities about panels, disconnects, and such.. I may also glean some of your "electrical political correctness" into these presentations. My problem is trying to explain it in 5-minutes or less without having students eyes glaze over in the process. That is my challenge.



    However, the biggest lesson I have learned through this discourse is that, where I recognize and embrace opportunities for improvement, you simply want to try and crush those whose opinions are not in perfect sync with your own... even when those who disagree are bonafide experts in the field.


    You've learned nothing in the process. How very sad for you.


  44. #44
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Erby Crofutt View Post
    It's the "sub-panel" thingy he's after.

    Erby,

    Actually, it is not the "subpanel" thingy I am after, it is those who teach that the neutral is bonded to ground at the main panel and not bonded to ground at the subpanel, when in fact the neutral is bonded to ground at the service equipment and not at any thing called a "main panel", and that a "main panel" and a "sub panel" would be wired the same.

    Those who teach that refuse to admit that the proper way to teach this, and the way the NEC they are supposedly teaching addressed this, is that the neutral is bonded to ground at the "service equipment".

    No amount of tricker, deception, mis-direction, re-direction, play faking, whatever you want to call it, will alter the fact that the neutral is bonded to ground at the ... "service equipment".

    Their method of teaching "main panel" as the bonding point for the neutral to ground only leads to confusion - which shows up fairly often here, and other places.

    The simplicity of the thing is that if they were to teach what they say they are ... the NEC ... they would teach that it is at the "service equipment" that the neutral is bonded to ground.

    If they would only do that, the confusion would stop.

    See, the entire thing is propagated by the simple fact that they are teaching the wrong thing. And the solution is as simple as making that change to teaching the correct thing.

    Which, really, is a shame.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  45. #45
    imported_John Smith's Avatar
    imported_John Smith Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    This is getting good. My money is on Jerry though. I consider Jerry the Inspectors Inspector. I for one genuinely appreciate all the help he has given me and others over the years.

    Im not sure why the NACHO guys want to come to IN and try to bash such a solid member.

    I think I am going to start referring to myself as the grand poobah of home inspection.


  46. #46
    Terry Heller's Avatar
    Terry Heller Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    So I'm scheduled to inspect a submarine this afternoon. Can anyone tell me who many conducotrs there should be? I thought conductors were only on trains.


  47. #47
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Did you know ....

    This is what happens when you have a home inspector who is a vendor and not a qualified electrician teaching courses. This is exactly what happened up here in Ontario a couple of years ago with a well inspection course. The attendees where left with the impression that they were somehow qualified to inspect wells and were advertising the fact they were qualified after a one day course.

    Jerry don't be dissuaded by your detractors!


  48. #48
    Paul Johnston's Avatar
    Paul Johnston Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Joseph Farsetta,
    Yes your article is helpful to newbie's, it would much more helpful to explain why the ground and neutral have to be separated. It is easy to tell someone to "do it this way or that way" but if they understand why is of greater benefit.


  49. #49
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    The reason I come to this site is to learn from the shared experiences, and failures from other experienced inspectors, then I can apply those failures and experiences to my way of doing business.


    I think there are some that think we still need to be taught how to do something by the book only.
    It does not take long to realize what the books tell you can vary greatly from the real life in the field.
    I don't come here to be taught by self annointed / proclaimed gerus, and self annointed /proclaimed elete educators with big egos.

    Now I'll go back to inspecting those submarine electrical panels

    Last edited by Dan Harris; 10-05-2009 at 08:24 AM.
    Phoenix AZ Resale Home, Mobile Home, New Home Warranty Inspections. ASHI Certified Inspector #206929 Arizona Certified Inspector # 38440
    www.inspectaz.com

  50. #50
    Fred Warner's Avatar
    Fred Warner Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harris View Post
    The reason I come to this site is to learn the shares experiences, and failures from other experienced inspectors, then I can apply those failures and experiences to my way of doing business.........................
    The reason I come is to watch the pole-vaulting over mouse turds. (More times than not, during that enjoyable( ) sport, I find I actually learn something)


  51. #51
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    The reason I come is to watch the pole-vaulting over mouse turds. (More times than not, during that enjoyable( ) sport, I find I actually learn something)
    A few turds thrown in once a while help the web ratings

    Phoenix AZ Resale Home, Mobile Home, New Home Warranty Inspections. ASHI Certified Inspector #206929 Arizona Certified Inspector # 38440
    www.inspectaz.com

  52. #52
    Michael Farha's Avatar
    Michael Farha Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    If all of you have this much time to make all of these posts, you are either not working or doing after dark. Lets try and keep it civil. All info is a good thing!


  53. #53
    Fred Warner's Avatar
    Fred Warner Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Farha View Post
    If all of you have this much time to make all of these posts, you are either not working or doing after dark. Lets try and keep it civil. All info is a good thing!
    Not doing what after dark???


  54. #54
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Terry,

    You have to broaden your horizons.

    Conductors are also in the operas.



    Remember,

    neutrals are only bonded to ground at the Service Equipment!!

    Erby Crofutt, Georgetown, KY - Read my Blog here: Erby the Central Kentucky Home Inspector B4 U Close Home Inspections www.b4uclose.com www.kentuckyradon.com
    Find on Facebook at: https://www.facebook.com/B4UCloseInspections

  55. #55
    Michael Greenwalt's Avatar
    Michael Greenwalt Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Just me and my area but this is actually one of the "least" defects I see.


  56. #56
    Joseph Farsetta's Avatar
    Joseph Farsetta Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    For Paul Johnston, an answer to your question. I tried to craft something in as simplified a manner as possible, and gleaned something good from my archives...

    The following explanation is an abridged version of an answer to essentially the same question, originally authored by Mike Holt, on MikeHolt.com. It is from May of 2003. Read the entire explanation at Grounding and Bonding of sub-panels - Mike Holt's Forum. One may also note the use of the term “sub-panel” in this and other articles throughout the electrical forums, and as an accepted term throughout the industry, despite what anyone may tell you.

    Here goes an expert’s explanation, in a nutshell and in laymen’s terms. I think Mike does a superb job with this simple explanation, BTW…

    Neutral-to-ground connection can be cause by wiring errors such as neutral-to-ground shorts in receptacles, shorted surge suppressor, ballast wires caught under ballasts or ballast covers, etc. But most commonly, improper neutral-to-ground connections are made when the neutral conductor is bonded to the metal case of a subpanel.

    An improper neutral-to-ground connection can create a condition where neutral current has multiple parallel paths to return to the power supply. This condition (parallel neutral paths) creates “ground loops”, “net currents” and the condition of “objections current” on the EGFP (effective ground-fault current path), a violation of Section 250-6.

    Objectionable (neutral) current flowing on the metal parts of the electrical system can cause fires, electrocution, and power quality issues with sensitive electronic equipment.

    Improper wiring resulting in a condition where neutral current flows through the EGFP can cause the temperature at loose connections to rise to a level that can cause a fire. In addition, arcing at loose connections because of neutral current flowing through the EGFP is particularly dangerous in areas containing easily ignitable and explosive gases, vapors, or dust.

    When a neutral-to-ground connection is made at more than one location (ground loop), objectionable neutral current will return to the source through much of the electrical system and building. The result will be a rise in the voltage difference between the metal parts of the electrical system and the earth.

    Paul, I hope this helped


  57. #57
    Fred Warner's Avatar
    Fred Warner Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Farsetta View Post
    ...........................................
    Neutral-to-ground connection can be cause by wiring errors such as neutral-to-ground shorts in receptacles, shorted surge suppressor, ballast wires caught under ballasts or ballast covers, etc. But most commonly, improper neutral-to-ground connections are made when the neutral conductor is bonded to the metal case of a subpanel.
    .................................................. ......
    I believe it's important to clarify that a neutral-to-ground connection is NOT a "short", but rather a "ground fault", similar to a phase-to-ground connection. A phase-to-neutral or a phase-to-phase connection is a "short".
    This may seem like "pole vaulting over mouse turds" just as the improper addressing of "sub"-panel may seem - rather than clarifying it as a "remote distribution panel", etc., but the precision of language is very important so that a permanent bit of mis-information is not created.
    Once a bit of mis-information goes out of a classroom, how is it retrieved?


  58. #58
    Paul W Abernathy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harris View Post
    The reason I come to this site is to learn from the shared experiences, and failures from other experienced inspectors, then I can apply those failures and experiences to my way of doing business.


    I think there are some that think we still need to be taught how to do something by the book only.
    It does not take long to realize what the books tell you can vary greatly from the real life in the field.
    I don't come here to be taught by self annointed / proclaimed gerus, and self annointed /proclaimed elete educators with big egos.

    Now I'll go back to inspecting those submarine electrical panels
    lol....well what have YOU done Sir for your industry?

    -I appear as an Expert on Mike Holts Video's
    -I appear in Mike Holts Book
    -I Won his Top Gun Award ( closed book code tests )
    -Help Establish the CEU Requirement in VA
    -Write articles for IAEI Magazine and other Publications
    -Licensed Master Electrician and owner for over 20 years
    -Author
    -Certified from ICC and IAEI in all Electrical Areas
    -Conduct Seminars all over the USA

    So doubt it is SELF Proclaimed.........what have you done for YOUR industry. If HI's feel they dont need help.....fine but if you rely on someone who shows no pedigree....So has Mr. Peck ever been a licensed Electrician?....ever pulled a single conductor, service change, wire an entire commercial complex.....teach hundreds of electrical inspectors at advanced levels....I doubt it.....

    You all can rip me....I dont give a rats A$$.....those that do will always be nothing and will total nothing. They want to earn they seek people like me....otherwise they end up messing it up like those who could careless what is right or wrong......

    As for Mr. Peck, It is clear he skips the question of all the leading educators in the country and their use of terms.....it is his way or the highway....better stay in litigation as education is not where he is good.

    grow up people.........the only TURD in the forum is the one who things their was is the only way while the educational industry says otherwise. Good luck guys....You are gonna need it !

    As for Mr. Farsetta....you have to be insane to want to help these people and then take their flack......screw em !


  59. #59
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    And is Farsetta an electrician? Nope.

    Thanks Paul, at least you are credible and not as dubious as JF.


  60. #60
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul W Abernathy View Post
    lol....well what have YOU done Sir for your industry?

    So doubt it is SELF Proclaimed.........what have you done for YOUR industry. If HI's feel they dont need help.....fine but if you rely on someone who shows no pedigree....So has Mr. Peck ever been a licensed Electrician?....ever pulled a single conductor, service change, wire an entire commercial complex.....teach hundreds of electrical inspectors at advanced levels....I doubt it.....

    You all can rip me....I dont give a rats A$$.....
    As for Mr. Peck, It is clear he skips the question of all the leading educators in the country and their use of terms.....it is his way or the highway....better stay in litigation as education is not where he is good.

    grow up people.........the only TURD in the forum is the one who things their was is the only way while the educational industry says otherwise. Good luck guys....You are gonna need it !

    As for Mr. Farsetta....you have to be insane to want to help these people and then take their flack......screw em !

    Gosh Paul, your not going away mad from here like you did when challanged on the nacho site are you?

    What have I done for the HI profession?
    I, like a lot of other inspectors choose to do things with out bragging, and reminding everone how I great I am and how I did this and that.

    RE: Mr Peck.. In my 9 plus years in this business, I can honestly say there has not been any other inspector that has more helpfull to my business.

    Nothing personal, but if I want to get an electrical question answered that Jerry or someone else here cannot answer, the first person I would go to is another electrician, and also a Home Inspector is Doug Hansen

    Phoenix AZ Resale Home, Mobile Home, New Home Warranty Inspections. ASHI Certified Inspector #206929 Arizona Certified Inspector # 38440
    www.inspectaz.com

  61. #61
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Wand View Post

    Thanks Paul, at least you are credible and not as dubious as JF.
    Joe's posts get a lot of hits, and he does make us think... something

    Phoenix AZ Resale Home, Mobile Home, New Home Warranty Inspections. ASHI Certified Inspector #206929 Arizona Certified Inspector # 38440
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  62. #62
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    The only thing he makes me think is his involvement in too many questionable things.


  63. #63
    Paul W Abernathy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Harris View Post
    Gosh Paul, your not going away mad from here like you did when challanged on the nacho site are you?

    What have I done for the HI profession?
    I, like a lot of other inspectors choose to do things with out bragging, and reminding everone how I great I am and how I did this and that.

    RE: Mr Peck.. In my 9 plus years in this business, I can honestly say there has not been any other inspector that has more helpfull to my business.

    Nothing personal, but if I want to get an electrical question answered that Jerry or someone else here cannot answer, the first person I would go to is another electrician, and also a Home Inspector is Doug Hansen
    Lol...you can call it anything you like Mr.Harris...i call it facts. I never questioned Mr.Pecks intent but he has alot of top notch educators laughing at his stance....i know as i called a few of them...lol......also where did i run from Nachi...check out my post count fella.......

    BTW.....i also believe in a book Mr.Hansen wrote he used SubPanel also...someone owes Mr.Farsetta an appology as he again is in good company...hell man..it appears im the only one not calling them Subpanels.......well....ofcourse Mr.Peck also...lol

    it is just worthless to try and teach closed minds....oh...its again not braggin.....its a fact and proud of it....


  64. #64
    Richard Stanley's Avatar
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    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    I used to think that Abernathy was the one credible thing about nachi...that has been reduced to zero.

    An educator should teach the absolute correct thing, not the version that makes the students happy.
    That relates diectly to inspectors that inspect to keep realtors happy instead of doing right for the clients.


  65. #65
    Paul W Abernathy's Avatar
    Paul W Abernathy Guest

    Default Re: Frequently seen electrical defect....

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Stanley View Post
    I used to think that Abernathy was the one credible thing about nachi...that has been reduced to zero.

    An educator should teach the absolute correct thing, not the version that makes the students happy.
    That relates diectly to inspectors that inspect to keep realtors happy instead of doing right for the clients.
    This shows you don't read ALL the posts.....I don't use the term "Subpanel" in my classes or publications. But ofcourse in order to take a dig at me and NACHI....you had to just give your 2 cents.

    Do you guys really think I care what you think of me....or NACHI?


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