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  1. #1
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    Default Am I losing my mind?

    I find myself leaving the house with new information each day that I likely attain here and then wonder if I really remembered something right.

    Outlets within 18" of a garage floor.... wrong?

    I've been writing them up for awhile now but couldn't find a code or rule anywhere. I'm hoping this isn't something I just dreamed up. Granted, I didn't read every word of the electric code while looking tonight.

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  2. #2
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    I find myself leaving the house with new information each day that I likely attain here and then wonder if I really remembered something right.

    Outlets within 18" of a garage floor.... wrong?

    I've been writing them up for awhile now but couldn't find a code or rule anywhere. I'm hoping this isn't something I just dreamed up. Granted, I didn't read every word of the electric code while looking tonight.
    MF: Yep, it's wrong. No source of ignition within 18" of garage floor.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Code reference AD?


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    " M1307.3 Elevation of ignition source.
    Appliances having an ignition source shall be elevated such that the source of ignition is not less than 18 inches (457 mm) above the floor in garages. ..."





    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Matt
    The outlet for the dryer may not be a code violation. However the dryer is an appliance and must be elevated to at least 18", as will the washer.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Matt
    The outlet for the dryer may not be a code violation. However the dryer is an appliance and must be elevated to at least 18", as will the washer.
    Now do you measure that 18" from the bottom of the appliance or from the bottom of the ignition source, which would be the motor inside the appliance?


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Now do you measure that 18" from the bottom of the appliance or from the bottom of the ignition source, which would be the motor inside the appliance?
    From the ignition source.

    Best

    Ron


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Code reference AD?
    Jim,

    It's one of those "common sense" items.

    Everyone has seen arced and burned up receptacles and plugs, to presume that they are not an ignition source is akin to presuming that cars and trucks with bumpers never get damaged in crashes ... everyone knows that is not true, and everyone knows that receptacles and plugs arc and burn up, and doing so provides an ignition source.

    To consider receptacles as not being an ignition source is, at best, fool hardy, and, at worst, culpable negligence.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Jim,

    It's one of those "common sense" items.

    Everyone has seen arced and burned up receptacles and plugs, to presume that they are not an ignition source is akin to presuming that cars and trucks with bumpers never get damaged in crashes ... everyone knows that is not true, and everyone knows that receptacles and plugs arc and burn up, and doing so provides an ignition source.

    To consider receptacles as not being an ignition source is, at best, fool hardy, and, at worst, culpable negligence.
    Considering and common sense aside. Is this a code complaint installation or not?

    Does anyone have the code definition of "ignition source"?


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    Considering and common sense aside. Is this a code complaint installation or not?
    Does not matter.

    Home inspectors are not "code inspectors".

    Home inspectors are NOT LIMITED TO the minimum standards of the code.

    Code inspectors ARE. Electricians ARE NOT.

    Does anyone have the code definition of "ignition source"?
    Again, that does not matter, because ...

    However, yes:
    - IGNITION SOURCE. A flame, spark or hot surface capable of igniting flammable vapors or fumes. Such sources include appliance burners, burner ignitions and electrical switching devices.

    I.e., "Such sources include" is not a limited all inclusive list, it is, as stated, a list representing a "think about things that could be" ignition sources, 'such as' ... receptacles and plugs, electric water heater element terminals (which we have all also seen burned up from arcing), etc., 'such as' is representing 'only the beginning of the list' and the reader must determine what other items fit into the 'such as' category.

    Think of that in this manner:
    - ARTICLE 240 Overcurrent Protection
    - - 240.24 Location in or on Premises.
    - - - (D) Not in Vicinity of Easily Ignitible Material. Overcurrent devices shall not be located in the vicinity of easily ignitible material, such as in clothes closets.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  11. #11
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    Considering and common sense aside. Is this a code complaint installation or not?

    Does anyone have the code definition of "ignition source"?
    SP: My guess is that the act of inconsideration as well as the concept of setting common sense aside constitute two entire chapters in the study guide for the electrician's exam . . .


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    JP: To add to what you said:

    90.1 Purpose.
    (A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

    The National Electrical Code (NEC) is prepared by the National Electrical Code Committee, which consists of a Technical Correlating Committee and 20 code-making panels. The code-making panels have specific subject responsibility within the Code. The scope of the National Electrical Code Committee is as follows:
    This committee shall have primary responsibility for documents on minimizing the risk of electricity as a source of electric shock and as a potential ignition source of fires and explosions. It shall also be responsible for text to minimize the propagation of fire and explosions due to electrical installations.


    Any electrician who does not understand that a spark of any kind in an area where fossil fuels may reside is a source of ignition needs to leave the profession and go to work shoveling horse manure (sh*t) or something more befitting their talents.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Any electrician who does not understand that a spark of any kind in an area where fossil fuels may reside is a source of ignition needs to leave the profession and go to work shoveling horse manure (sh*t) or something more befitting their talents.
    Aaron,

    I am pretty sure that Peter "understands" the risk, he was asking for a "code reference" and a "code definition".

    Most importantly to understand, though, it that neither home inspectors nor electricians are limited to the minimum standard codes.

    On the other hand, code inspectors are limited to those minimum standard codes. This is not to say that code inspectors cannot accept work which is above and beyond, or in addition to, what is specifically stated in the codes, only that code inspectors are not allowed to enforce more than is stated in the codes.

    Some areas, such as that ignition source section, are open to interpretation, and as such ANY POTENTIAL ignition source SHOULD BE included.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    I understand that Hi's are not limited to minimum standards. However if this is such an issue I can't believe that the NEC has remained silent about this for so many years.

    I would also question where are all these flammable vapors coming from? I have had to work in many residential garages and never even smelled the gas, let alone had enough to reach an LEL concentration.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    However if this is such an issue I can't believe that the NEC has remained silent about this for so many years.
    From the section Aaron posted I would not say the NEC "has remained silent" on that issue, that section specifically talks about keeping your eyes and thinking out for ignition sources.

    The NEC, nor any other code for that matter, simply cannot list and address ALL potential ignition sources.

    I would also question where are all these flammable vapors coming from? I have had to work in many residential garages and never even smelled the gas, let alone had enough to reach an LEL concentration.
    Same here, but there is apparently sufficient risk to keep that in the code.

    Then there are those people who store their gas cans and lawn mowers in the same utility room as the gas water heater ... I do occasionally read about then refilling their lawn more, spilling some gas, and ... BOOM! ... there is a big fire ball and the end up in the burn unit with serious burns all over their body.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Looks like a set up for an electric dryer to me (recp). Is this at parking level or up on a curb?


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    SP: My guess is that the act of inconsideration as well as the concept of setting common sense aside constitute two entire chapters in the study guide for the electrician's exam . . .
    I know you write this crap under the guise of trying to be funny, but it so transparent.



    And thank you Jerry. You clearly understood my intention.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Looks like a set up for an electric dryer to me (recp). Is this at parking level or up on a curb?

    It's parking level... the center of the outlet is about 12" above the floor.

    My standard comment on these outlets is that they are a possible ignition souce for items typically stored in a garage (paint, gasoline, etc.) and that the outlets should be elevated.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    I know you write this crap under the guise of trying to be funny, but it so transparent.
    Speed Boy: The truth is I just do not care for most electricians.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Speed Boy: The truth is I just do not care for most electricians.
    I think you have made that point QUITE obvious, at least in my short time here.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    I think you have made that point QUITE obvious, at least in my short time here.
    Speed Boy: The problem lies in many electricians believing themselves to be engineers and thus imagining they are experts in all disciplines. Most of both groups I have encountered know little enough about their chosen field of study, less about peripheral matters, and nearly nothing about anything remotely resembling common sense.

    You don't strike me as one of the above, but your name is quite a hurdle . . . You may not care for my sense of humor, but in the end, that is the most effective tool in anyone's arsenal.


  22. #22
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    Default Re: Am I losing my mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post

    You don't strike me as one of the above, but your name is quite a hurdle . . .
    Well then thank you, and I know what you mean about my name. It has been the cause of many "jokes" over the years.
    Let's just say it has more to do with racing and actual speed than anything else.


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