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  1. #1
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    Cool Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Using the New NEC 2008 code book.

    Can anyone tell me if a receptacle underneath the sink, now needs to be
    GFCI protect, and tamper-resistance. This receptacle could be use for
    a disposal or dishwasher.

    Can anyone tell me is a receceptacle in a kitchen cabinet, above the
    Mico-Wave, needs to be GFCI, and tamper-resistance.

    Can anyone tell me is a receptacle, within 6 Ft. of the kitchen sink, behind the refrigerator, needs to be GFCI needs tamper-resistance.

    Now correct me if I am wrong, the NEC 2008 doesn't require kitchen circuits to be AFCI. What about the island or peninsula.

    Does the breakfast room, adjacent to the kitchen area, require AFCI on there duplex receptacle's.

    quote: "education never stops until you drop dead"

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  2. #2
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    All receptacles in a home not protected by GFCI needs to be protected by AFCI in all living areas. Hmm.....anything in a home that I can think of is a living area. A receptacle in a kitchen as far as I read all involved with refrig receptacles does not need protection. I know in a garage there is not a receptacle in it that does not need GFCI protection including the ceiling receptacle for the garage door or evne a dedicated freeaer or frig receptacle.

    To protect you main source of child and frozen food such as the frig in the kitchen with GFCI or AFCI where the power could get interupted is just plain foolish.


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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    All receptacles in a home not protected by GFCI needs to be protected by AFCI in all living areas.
    Not actually true.

    210.12(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.



    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    Can anyone tell me if a receptacle underneath the sink, now needs to be
    GFCI protect, and tamper-resistance. This receptacle could be use for
    a disposal or dishwasher.
    No and no.



    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    Can anyone tell me is a receceptacle in a kitchen cabinet, above the
    Mico-Wave, needs to be GFCI, and tamper-resistance.
    No and no.



    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    Can anyone tell me is a receptacle, within 6 Ft. of the kitchen sink, behind the refrigerator, needs to be GFCI needs tamper-resistance.
    No and yes.



    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    Now correct me if I am wrong, the NEC 2008 doesn't require kitchen circuits to be AFCI. What about the island or peninsula.
    No. No kitchen circuits require AFCI protection.



    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    Does the breakfast room, adjacent to the kitchen area, require AFCI on there duplex receptacle's.
    No, but oddly enough the DR does. This is the ****ed up 2008 NEC now, isn't it.


  4. #4
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    I am pretty sureif you look in a few different places the refrig does not need GFCI protection. I am playing halloween uncle right now and cannot look it up. It always seems to go round and round on this subject.

    A little edit here.

    Isn't a breakfast room just another word for dining room since that is where most of the food is eaten. Now adays the dining rooms are almost never used in most homes wh8ich makes the dinette or breakfsat room the dining room. Just different words for the same place.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    Does the breakfast room, adjacent to the kitchen area, require AFCI on there duplex receptacle's.
    (highlighting with red and bold is mine)
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    210.12(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.
    No, but oddly enough the DR does. This is the ****ed up 2008 NEC now, isn't it.
    Peter,

    Why do you say the breakfast room DOES NOT require AFCI protection while the dining room does?

    The breakfast room MOST CERTAINLY DOES required AFCI protection, JUST LIKE the dining room does. And there is nothing screwed up with the wording of the 2008 NEC in that section.

    In the kitchen, no, not address (not required) - in the breakfast room ... yes.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert S. Mattison View Post
    Can anyone tell me is a receceptacle in a kitchen cabinet, above the Mico-Wave, needs to be GFCI, and tamper-resistance.

    Can anyone tell me is a receptacle, within 6 Ft. of the kitchen sink, behind the refrigerator, needs to be GFCI needs tamper-resistance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    No and no.

    Peter,

    Where do you get your "no" from for the tamper resistant receptacles part of the above question?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    (highlighting with red and bold is mine)




    Peter,

    Why do you say the breakfast room DOES NOT require AFCI protection while the dining room does?

    The breakfast room MOST CERTAINLY DOES required AFCI protection, JUST LIKE the dining room does. And there is nothing screwed up with the wording of the 2008 NEC in that section.

    In the kitchen, no, not address (not required) - in the breakfast room ... yes.
    Well, they mention parlors, sun rooms and rec rooms, but no pantry or breakfast room. Whether these areas are "similar to a kitchen" or "similar to a DR" is absolutely up to interpretation. I truly do not think it is as black and white as you make it out to be. If one considers them similar to a kitchen they DO NOT require AFCI protection. Kitchen is not in the list in 210.12(B).


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Peter,

    Where do you get your "no" from for the tamper resistant receptacles part of the above question?
    406.11 Tamper-Resistant Receptacles in Dwelling Units.
    In all areas specified in 210.52, all 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles shall be listed tamper-resistant receptacles.


    210.52 is "required receptacles".

    Here is the beginning of the very long section 210.52:

    210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
    This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:
    (1) Part of a luminaire or appliance, or
    (2) Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or
    (3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or
    (4) Located more than 1.7 m (51/2 ft) above the floor



  9. #9
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    Well, they mention parlors, sun rooms and rec rooms, but no pantry or breakfast room. Whether these areas are "similar to a kitchen" or "similar to a DR" is absolutely up to interpretation. I truly do not think it is as black and white as you make it out to be.
    I truly believe that you would be hard pressed to find AHJ which exclude your "pantry or breakfast room" from AFCI protection requirement.

    A "pantry" is nothing like the kitchen you are trying to push it off to be, it is, however, really nothing more than a food closet, and, if you read the list, "closet" is specially included. The purpose of a "pantry" are exactly the same as the purposes of any other "closet", you store items in the "closet" - note that the code does NOT state "clothes" "closet", that the code simply states "closet", which would include *all closets and similar rooms or areas used for similar uses*.

    Likewise, a "breakfast room" is nothing like the kitchen you are trying to push it off to be, it is really nothing more than a "dining room" for informal uses. The purpose of a "breakfast room" is exactly the same as the purpose of a "dining room", the "dining room" is used as a place to sit and eat, as it a "breakfast room", and the code specifically states "or similar rooms or areas".

    If one considers them similar to a kitchen they DO NOT require AFCI protection. Kitchen is not in the list in 210.12(B).
    And why are you trying to pass off NON-SIMILAR rooms and areas as "kitchens"?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    406.11 Tamper-Resistant Receptacles in Dwelling Units.
    In all areas specified in 210.52, all 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles shall be listed tamper-resistant receptacles.

    210.52 is "required receptacles".

    Here is the beginning of the very long section 210.52:

    210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
    This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:
    (1) Part of a luminaire or appliance, or
    (2) Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or
    (3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or
    (4) Located more than 1.7 m (51/2 ft) above the floor
    Peter,

    Okay, I'll buy that ... provided that microwave receptacle is on it own circuit and not with something else.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    406.11 Tamper-Resistant Receptacles in Dwelling Units.
    In all areas specified in 210.52, all 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles shall be listed tamper-resistant receptacles.

    210.52 is "required receptacles".

    Here is the beginning of the very long section 210.52:

    210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
    This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:
    (1) Part of a luminaire or appliance, or
    (2) Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or
    (3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or
    (4) Located more than 1.7 m (51/2 ft) above the floor
    Sorry I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. This is not an exemption from the tamper resistant requirement.

    Article 406 clearly says that "all areas specified in 210.52 , all 125 volt 15 & 20 ampere receptacles shall be tamper resistant"
    Article 210.52 Lists the requirements of required outlet locations in a dwelling. The list you are using to exempt TR receptacles; is a list of outlets that can not be counted toward the required outlets for the dwelling.Hence the"in addition to" phrase, It has nothing to do with exempting them from the TR requirement.

    Using your reasoning ( Highlited in green and bold above)- I could switch control an entire receptacle ( as opposed to only the top half ) in a bedroom and NOT install a tamper resistant receptacle. (I would have to install an additional receptacle to meet the spacing requirements as a totally switch controled receptacle does not count toward that)
    As 210.70 (A) (1) exception 1 gives us the allowance to use switch controled receptacles in place of overhead light fixtures in any room other then Kitchens and Baths.

    I feel it was the code making panel intentions that all 125 volt 15 & 20 ampere receptacles in a dwelling be tamper resistant.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Ken,

    That was my thinking too, but ... the code does state:

    210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
    This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:
    (1) Part of a luminaire or appliance, or
    (2) Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or
    (3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or
    (4) Located more than 1.7 m (51/2 ft) above the floor


    Which makes that receptacle located in the cabinet NOT included in this:

    406.11 Tamper-Resistant Receptacles in Dwelling Units.
    In all areas specified in 210.52, all 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles shall be listed tamper-resistant receptacles
    .


    Because that receptacle in the cabinet for the microwave *is not* "specified in 210.52".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Not to argue with you but I stand firm on this.
    Article 210.52 is referred to to describe areas in the dwellings- not receptacle locations. If not I could legally install some non tamper resistant outlets in bedrooms as explained in my prior post.

    Besides Addition to means Added to thus ....
    "in addition to any receptacle that is.... " can be read as "plus any receptacle that is......"

    It is my belief ( and that of many others) that this was the code making panel's way of saying that Tamper Resistant receptacles are required in dwellings.


    I have had many conversations with code enforcment officials, code update instructors and some exteremly smart code savy people and guess what ? There is NO general concensus on this, it seems the code making panel needs to clarify this!
    This is one of those issues that there is no clear black and white answer

    Last edited by ken horak; 11-01-2009 at 10:00 AM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I truly believe that you would be hard pressed to find AHJ which exclude your "pantry or breakfast room" from AFCI protection requirement.

    A "pantry" is nothing like the kitchen you are trying to push it off to be, it is, however, really nothing more than a food closet, and, if you read the list, "closet" is specially included. The purpose of a "pantry" are exactly the same as the purposes of any other "closet", you store items in the "closet" - note that the code does NOT state "clothes" "closet", that the code simply states "closet", which would include *all closets and similar rooms or areas used for similar uses*.

    Likewise, a "breakfast room" is nothing like the kitchen you are trying to push it off to be, it is really nothing more than a "dining room" for informal uses. The purpose of a "breakfast room" is exactly the same as the purpose of a "dining room", the "dining room" is used as a place to sit and eat, as it a "breakfast room", and the code specifically states "or similar rooms or areas".



    And why are you trying to pass off NON-SIMILAR rooms and areas as "kitchens"?
    Jerry, I am not trying to push or pass off anything here. I am simply stating an opinion that this is not black and white and is open to interpretation.

    This IS yet another botched addition of wording to the NEC making the 2008 edition the most f-ed up version ever.


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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Would someone please explain to me what you guys are talking about in terms of 'tamper resistant' receps. Because I don't know. What am I missing about current receps we buy at the store? Or are you guys talking about the child proofing plugs/covers?
    I always told my kids, 'if you are stupid enough to stick your finger in there after I've warned you, good riddins'.

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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Ken, 210.52 is required receptacles as I said before.

    The "..in additon to..." part is simply saying that what's in 210.52 is required. What's in (1) through (4) does not apply.


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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    I interpret this issue just like Speedy does, and so do most AHJs I deal with. The whole idea here is to protect kids from sticking things into receptacles. It's highly unlikely a kid will move a refrigerator to do so.

    It also speaks to receptacles within cabinets which usually includes garbage disposers, dishwashers, and microwaves that are cord and plug connected.

    For the record I buy TR receptacles exclusively because it's cheaper than carrying more than one kind or keeping them sorted on a finish but I didn't get any grief using up the old ones in the excluded areas.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    Would someone please explain to me what you guys are talking about in terms of 'tamper resistant' receps.

    Markus,

    The tamper-resistant receptacles have covers over the two slots in the receptacle, and if you try to push something into one slot only the covers stay covering the slots, whereas when you try to push in a two-prong plug both blades go in at the same time and the covers move out of the way and allow the plug to be inserted.

    This keeps kids from sticking paper clips, scissors, etc., into only one slot.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    This keeps kids from sticking paper clips, scissors, etc., into only one slot.
    Defeating the natural selection process. The smart kids will use two paper clips.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Thanks Jerry, I have to admit I have not seen these, either in the store or in any homes. I've only seen the add-on things young parents get talked into buying, along with the cabinet latches.
    Also have to agree with Vern on this one.

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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Speedy
    I know what 210.52 is and what it is for, trust me.
    I also know for a fact that the NEC is far from clear on the issue being debated. Like I said : " there is NO clear Black and white answer" to this debate.

    In my area it's all 125 volt 15 and 20 ampere receptacles. In others it's what you say. Who is right ? Who is wrong ?
    (I will stand firm that it's all 125 volt receptacles)!

    Last edited by ken horak; 11-02-2009 at 07:06 AM.

  22. #22
    John Steinke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    You ask several questions, and each of them is the direct result of your being either uneducated (a forgivable state of being) or mis-informed (the sin lies with others). Some of the answers given so far continue that misinformation.

    Let's back up, and start over. Clear your mind of everything that you think you know.

    Let's first look at the AFCI requirements. Is this protection required in kitchens, pantries, prep areas, and dining rooms? No, these areas are not listed among the areas requiring AFCI protection. So, there is no need for the dishwasher, refrigerator, etc. to be AFCI protected.

    Now let's look at the requirements for kitchens. The first thing you will note is a requirement that the kitchen, pantry, dining room, etc .... that all these areas together .... have to be served by at least two 'small appliance branch circuits (or SABC's). What makes an SABC different from other circuits? Well, first off, it's required to be a 20-amp circuit. Secondly, it can only serve receptacles in the specified areas.

    Only when you get to requirements for counter-top areas - and these are ALL kitchen counters, whether along the wall, sticking out, or standing alone - do you come across the GFCI requirement. So, other receptacles in the kitchen that do not serve the counters need not be GFCI protected.

    I don't see any discussion in the code about distances from a sink. A receptacle can be 20' from a sink, but if it serves the counter, it needs to be GFCI protected. In a similar manner, it can be a foot from the sink, and not need a GFCI if it does not serve the counter (as in your refrigerator example)

    Finally, I see essentially no exceptions to the requirement for tamper resistant receptacles. It can be a single receptacle on the ceiling of the garage, with the door opener always plugged in, and the code now requires it to be tamper resistant.

    When you look at things this way, you can see that there are, indeed, many receptacles in a home that need not be either AFCI or GFCI protected.


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    Cool Re: Losing my hear over the NEC 2008 code

    Thanks John for your post dated:11-02-09 it really help.

    Also thanks to the rest whom took the time to reply to this Thread.


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