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  1. #1
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Ok I hope I don't get yelled at by HG because this has been discussed before. I checked the recent post but it does not address Challenger panels. I also could not look on the inside of the panel,the information tag had been removed. So are GE and Westinghouse breakers compatible with Challenger distribution panels.

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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    Ok I hope I don't get yelled at by HG because this has been discussed before. I checked the recent post but it does not address Challenger panels. I also could not look on the inside of the panel,the information tag had been removed. So are GE and Westinghouse breakers compatible with Challenger distribution panels.
    Do you mean the manufacturer's panel label information (or FIS label or FEP mark) was removed or missing?

    What does that tell you about the status of the panel? Moot question, needs replacement or FIS/FES to re-label or re-mark it after inspection/evaluation; cheaper to replace.


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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    I'm asking again, especially since you don't return to other strings:

    Realizing that the tone of this posting is stern (intended) but not meant to be mean, the same questions/photo examples repeatedly (not necessarily THIS question, but others) over and over on the same or similar "issues" from the same person are getting tiresome & worrisome thinking there is some sort of failure to communicate/return to thread & read/retain information/keyword search prior posts/learning difficulty, etc. Is there something ELSE going on?

    Finally, I have to ask this. What's up with the two Park City Stouffers (Matthew & Ryan)? Both posting styles the same, same issues/questions/photos, never "on" at the same time, but often one posting right after the other. Related persons in same town (sharing computer?) or same person - two posting identities?

    I haven't yelled at you previously. THIS WOULD BE YELLING. (all caps)



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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    Ok I hope I don't get yelled at by HG because this has been discussed before. I checked the recent post but it does not address Challenger panels. I also could not look on the inside of the panel,the information tag had been removed. So are GE and Westinghouse breakers compatible with Challenger distribution panels.

    It's a long and confusing road with no real answer. The best proof of this to me is actually the absence of information. Namely from JP.... If there were a hard and fast answer he'd give it to us. Note he didn't chime in on the other thread until the conversation drifted away from the the type and to the number of breakers in a panel.

    How about that JP... you are teaching without even posting

    Or have a I missed a previous opinion on this?

    As a somewhat related side note I was at HD this week buying some breakers and noticed they don't have the laminated circuit breaker 'crossover' chart that used to hang from the rack. I was stuck just 'guessing' what to put into my 1979 Murray panel. The Siemmens seem to line up and fit pretty well. I figure it will give the HI something to do when I sell my house someday. Because, of course, he won't find anything else wrong


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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Do you mean the manufacturer's panel label information (or FIS label or FEP mark) was removed or missing?

    What does that tell you about the status of the panel? Moot question, needs replacement or FIS/FES to re-label or re-mark it after inspection/evaluation; cheaper to replace.
    Sheesh, if I call for a new panel every time the label is obscured or was never installed, I'd be out of biz pretty quick - that's not realistic.

    I would point out the facts - GE, Westighouse breakers have been installed in this panel. Let the client decide if that's an issue.
    It must be the Florida sun, more sharks in the water down there.


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    Wink Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Hi! Mathew

    "So are GE and Westinghouse breakers compatible with challenger
    distribution panel".

    Great question.

    My concern is, would there be a U.L. violation is you mix's brands.

    I do believe Murry and Siemens and the same breaker, just different brand
    names. Cross Hinds was Murray at one time, then the Murray brand can
    back on the scene. Note: opinion only, by this author

    My quess is this is question about some work your doing at your own
    home. And your not doing a H.I.

    In my opinion, I would used another brand, that would fit the panel. If
    I could not readily secure the brand type that was the origin. And I
    would sleep well at night.


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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    It's a long and confusing road with no real answer. The best proof of this to me is actually the absence of information. Namely from JP.... If there were a hard and fast answer he'd give it to us. Note he didn't chime in on the other thread until the conversation drifted away from the the type and to the number of breakers in a panel.

    How about that JP... you are teaching without even posting
    Matt,

    Cool.

    But there is a hard and fast answer ... er ... actually two hard and fast answers.

    1) The only breakers allowed in a panelboard are those listed on the listing and labeling in the panelboard. UL says so.

    2) Any breaker which is Classified for any given panelboard is allowed to be installed in that panelboard. UL says so.



    You still with me here?

    Now, ask the manufacturer of the panelboard what breakers are allowed in their panelboard: 1) only those listed on the labeling, or, 2) any which UL says are okay.

    I doubt you will get the manufacturer to say other than what is listed on the labeling as, after all, THEY SPENT TONS OF MONEY testing and listing THOSE breakers with THAT panelboard. And if there is a problem with that panelboard and injuries or death results, you can bet that manufacturer will be sued, and, if there are any breakers other theirs in that panel which caused whatever problem, you can also bet their lawyers will get a walk from any damages.

    I see this as a problem which UL created when they started accepting breakers to be classified for panels other than by the manufacturer of the breaker or the panel. To solve that problem, UL should change the standard and testing and listing to specifically state that any breakers deems suitable by UL may be used in any panel.

    Yeah, right, like UL is going to do that.

    Intermatic makes pool control centers with panelboard in them, and those panelboard specifically state and list ALL THE DIFFERENT breakers which are allowed to be used in them. And, because THE LABEL says that is okay in those panels, THAT IS OKAY ... IN THOSE PANELS.

    However, not only does Square D state that only Square D breakers are allowed in their panels, but Square D states WHICH TYPES of Square D breakers are allowed, and those types not stated are not allowed. Period.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 11-06-2009 at 06:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Thanks JP...

    Another twist to this that I was amused with recently is the cost of panelboards.

    For some work I'm doing I went with a Siemmens 125A panel. In looking at it it's amazing how many different pieces of equipment are built and put together to complete the finished product. The cost? A whopping $37 at Home Depot! Ironically, that's about the cost of one AFCI breaker (which the manufactuer knows you're likely to buy at least a few of).

    It seems like a game of who will give away the panel the cheapest, knowing you'll be back for the breakers.... and pay dearly for them.


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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    test

    Well finally got the editing features to work again by clearing all history for inspection news.

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Thanks for all the info.


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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    Thanks JP...

    Another twist to this that I was amused with recently is the cost of panelboards.

    For some work I'm doing I went with a Siemmens 125A panel. In looking at it it's amazing how many different pieces of equipment are built and put together to complete the finished product. The cost? A whopping $37 at Home Depot! Ironically, that's about the cost of one AFCI breaker (which the manufactuer knows you're likely to buy at least a few of).

    It seems like a game of who will give away the panel the cheapest, knowing you'll be back for the breakers.... and pay dearly for them.
    My point exactly, especially when encountering obsolete panel from company no longer in business.


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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Matt,

    Like H.G., that is what I have been trying to tell people for years - a new panel is not really that much money, and it is also not that much money for the labor to replace a panel (yes, it is a LOT MORE than that $37, but not as related to the cost of a house or even the electrical system, and its potential to save lives and physical items - like the house - far exceeds the cost of replacing a panel).

    Breaker cost?

    Just another cost of protecting oneself, one's family, guests, the house, and the neighbors.

    All in all it is "small potatoes" when all is said and done and considered.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #13
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    Wink Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    If the breaker fits, use it. That tells you that they came from the same mold. All breakers that are sold now should be ul listed and tested. The only thing different is that the originals came from the US, then Mexico and now China.


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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    If the breaker fits, use it. That tells you that they came from the same mold. All breakers that are sold now should be ul listed and tested. The only thing different is that the originals came from the US, then Mexico and now China.
    So could you please explain how this would satisfy the manufacturers requirements to use a specific brand and type of breaker in their panel?

    While there are breakers that will fit and appear to function in another brand of panel this does not relieve the installer of following the instructions included in the panel. There is also the small section in the NEC called 110.3(B).

    I don't know what would concern me more; buying a house that someone of a similar attitude wired or inspected.


  15. #15
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    Talking Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    wow struck a nerve! As a certified inspector I know of no SOP that dictats we go by by the nec or other mechanical code. I guess you only go to a dealer to buy parts for your car, never go to advance,napa, only go to the dealer to buy your oil ect. I also suspect that if are, an inspector you pull every breaker in a panel box to make sure all of the breakers match the box.The reason manufactors tell you only to use there breaker is to make more money. Again all breakers sold today are rated the same by ul stanards, the buss bars may be different configerations but if the breaker fits into the slot properly it was made to fit and will work just fine. I suppose if you had to cut the notch out and use a metal screw to hold it in place that would be extream.


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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Unless the breakers are UL listed OEM & speced by the manufacturer or UL classified for THAT panel they cannot be used just because they "fit". With that attitude some of us are going to be thinking that some "Certifications" were obtained from a Cracker Jack box.


  17. #17

    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    For us inspectors who don't just automatically write up the fact that there is a different manufacturers breaker in panel, can any of you let me know whether there are breakers that fit well in a specific panel that are not allowed? There's really no way to verify during the course of an inspection whether another manufacturer has had their breakers UL tested/ listed for use in other panels that I know of.

    Thanks.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Do all of you inspectors pull every breaker to see if in the appropriate slot, the right breaker is inserted? Apparently if you do, then do you turn off the power first when you pull it out? Are you an electrician or a home inspector? So far three violations of every SOP in the book. Rollie you are an idiot if you do. Apparently you are not an inspector but maybe a parts replacer. How many times if you are an inspector do you recommend something to be referred to an expert evaluation? Must be lots of times if you are pulling all of the breakers. There is no way to tell without pulling the breaker if, it is correctly installed, and fits correctly in the appropriate slot if it is in fact not allowed for that panel box. Sure if it is hanging inside the box by the wire I don’t think it would take a rocket scientist to know it is the wrong type of breaker. As a licensed electrician sure when I have to replace a breaker always try to get the name brand breaker to replace a bad one with. The difference is when I am inspecting a house as an inspector I do not offer to do any other services, I suspect with your attitude, you do.



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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    Do all of you inspectors pull every breaker to see if in the appropriate slot, the right breaker is inserted? Apparently if you do, then do you turn off the power first when you pull it out? Are you an electrician or a home inspector? So far three violations of every SOP in the book. Rollie you are an idiot if you do. Apparently you are not an inspector but maybe a parts replacer. How many times if you are an inspector do you recommend something to be referred to an expert evaluation? Must be lots of times if you are pulling all of the breakers. There is no way to tell without pulling the breaker if, it is correctly installed, and fits correctly in the appropriate slot if it is in fact not allowed for that panel box. Sure if it is hanging inside the box by the wire I don’t think it would take a rocket scientist to know it is the wrong type of breaker. As a licensed electrician sure when I have to replace a breaker always try to get the name brand breaker to replace a bad one with. The difference is when I am inspecting a house as an inspector I do not offer to do any other services, I suspect with your attitude, you do.
    I do not need to rermove a breaker to tell what make it is unless it's a Chinese knockoff & a HI should not be removing electrical components
    w/o a proper license, exp. one like you who is barely qualified to operate a light switch.


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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    Do all of you inspectors pull every breaker to see if in the appropriate slot, the right breaker is inserted? Apparently if you do, then do you turn off the power first when you pull it out? Are you an electrician or a home inspector? So far three violations of every SOP in the book. Rollie you are an idiot if you do. Apparently you are not an inspector but maybe a parts replacer. How many times if you are an inspector do you recommend something to be referred to an expert evaluation? Must be lots of times if you are pulling all of the breakers. There is no way to tell without pulling the breaker if, it is correctly installed, and fits correctly in the appropriate slot if it is in fact not allowed for that panel box. Sure if it is hanging inside the box by the wire I don’t think it would take a rocket scientist to know it is the wrong type of breaker. As a licensed electrician sure when I have to replace a breaker always try to get the name brand breaker to replace a bad one with. The difference is when I am inspecting a house as an inspector I do not offer to do any other services, I suspect with your attitude, you do.
    Why would it be so hard to visually identify the breaker? You don't need to remove anything. If it is not the same brand as the panel there is a chance that it does not mount properly to the buss and should be noted in your report. I have a teenage son with a couple of weeks of experience that can get me the proper breaker for the panel. Why would this be so hard for someone that represents themselves as a knowledgeable professional?

    If you don't know or can't properly recognize the breaker and panel brand maybe you really aren't providing a credible inspection to the paying customers. You said you are a licensed electrician. Recognizing the proper breaker should make this even easier for you than someone without the specialized training that you should have. Does your knowledge level change when you switch hats back to inspector? Perhaps you are just someone that performs electrical work or inspections for pay without knowing or caring about codes and accepted standards?


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Cobra Cook ... I'll let you in on a little secret, that modesty has prevented a few members here from sharing ...

    Some members - Rollie and Jim among them ... are not HI's at all. Instead, they spent the better part of a decade, both full time work and courses, to qualify just to take the test to be a master electrician. They actually DO have the training, equipment, experience, license, and insurance that allows them to remove breakers from panels - and to do a lot other stuff too!

    It takes more than a few seminars to attain that level of expertise ... might be worthwhile to sit back and hear them out.


  22. #22

    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Bump back to my question please........
    It's one of those things I see on a regular basis to where I really don't know what the correct answer is.
    If I was an electrician doing work on a panel, I would of course just install a breaker allowed on the label .
    During the course of an inspection, I'm not so sure it's that easy.

    Thanks.


  23. #23
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    Wink Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Oomph, I'm excited to know that it took decades to obtain a masters electrician license. My son finished his four year apprenticeship and the next year took the masters test and passed with a 95. He learned a lot from working with me for the first part of his life starting at age six following me around. I asked him if he would want a doctor to operate on him who only passed his finals with a 95 and he said no and went through the code book again to refresh his memory and stays current on any changes. It does not take a rocket scientist to pass a masters course but only to study the current code book. It also does not take a brain surgeon to remove or tell if a breaker fits the panel correctly. You do not usually have to remove the breaker to tell the brand name but you do have to remove it to tell the specifications and how it is mounted and where it was made. If any of you think that buying a breaker now comes only from the USA, and most likely will not come from China then you are in lala land. Name brand breakers have been coming from Mexico for years, now many come from China, so what, and it is a fact of life. The original question was if the breaker fits "properly" is it ok to use a different breaker than what the panel box is, the answer is yes! Most panels will only allow “their name” breakers to fit correctly, but several are compatible with each other.
    As an inspector I am not a "code enforcer" but an inspector who evaluates the home non-evasively for structural defects and components of the house, including unsafe wiring, plumbing, heating and ac systems, windows and doors ect. When inspecting a panel I look at the type of wiring and how it is routed, size of breaker and how it fits to the size of the wire, how the cover encloses the breakers, double taps and whether the breaker allows for double taps, even down to how much romex shielding is left coming into the box. We know that it is only supposed to be one inch but am I going to tell my client to have the electrical system to be evaluate by a licensed electrician because it has 1 ¼ inches coming in the box? This minute detail can tell me what type of electrician and quality of electrician that installed the system. I do not wear a hat so I do not have to change it when I do an inspection. I like people to see my silver hair because I earned every piece of it. Use your common sense.


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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Matthew,

    I see mixed breakers a lot. I explain to my clients that I'm not a licensed electrician. I then tell them that most panel manufactures state to only use their breakers in the panel. (if the panel in question has that clause on the label I will point it out to them, and usually add a picture of it in the report. I then say that the other breakers may be fine, showing the UL logo, but it will be called out in the report that there are mixed breakers and a qualified electrician can further evaluate as desired.
    No label - it still has mixed breakers. They pay me to point out potential problems, or mention areas that may need further evaluation.

    Dave Hill
    Buyers & Sellers Property Inspections LLC
    WWW.BuyersSellersPi.Com

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    [QUOTE=Dave Hill;108551]Matthew,

    I see mixed breakers a lot. I explain to my clients .....


    Spoken plain and simple Dave. Thank you for that. Could not be more clear.


  26. #26
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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Cobra, could you please tell me the jurisdiction? I am not aware of any that will let you test without being able to document five full-time years, in the employ of a licensed electrical contractor, as a journeyman, first. Some even go so far as to require pay stubs for the period.

    Ditto for an electrical contractors' license. Add to that the minimum 4 years to attain journeyman status, and you've got nine years.

    Training apprentices is an interesting process. At the end of year #2, they all think they're journeymen. At graduation time, though, they realize that the learning has just begun.

    Now, as to the original inquiry .... The manufacturers say you're wrong. UL says you're wrong. The NEC specifically addresses the issue. Licensed professionals have explained these things, using small words and short sentences.

    And, as worthy as your son may be, you have not attained his level of competence. If he wishes to speak up, he's free to join the forum. I'll wager he can ID the breakers without removing them from the panel.

    I'm not overly concerned with credentials; an idea ought to be able to stand on its' own. I dare say though, that if the entire world calls you a horse, it might be time to try on a saddle. Simply saying 'no it's not' is not a discussion.

    As I explained in an almost identical thread a few days ago, it's very possible that the Westinghouse nreakers are fine in the panel, and virtually certain that the GE ones are not.

    NTW ... I think yor opinion regarding romex is also somewhat different from what the NEC specifies. Are you in BC, Canada, by any chance?

    Last edited by John Steinke; 11-13-2009 at 06:22 PM.

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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Cobra,

    You seem to contradict yourself. You ask your son if he would want to be operated on by a doctor that only scored a 95, yet you say as long as the breaker fits it is good enough, regardless of the NEC or UL or manufacturers rules to use a specific type. Did you ask your son if he would sign off on work that you did and seem to think is OK and put his license on the line?

    You should also learn to read and interpret better. Maybe this is why you are having such a hard time with understanding that you cannot just install a breaker just because it fits. In another example John stated it took the better part of a decade to get a license. You interpreted that to be decades. Quite a difference. Here it is required to have a minimum 7 years of verifiable experience and a letter to even sit for the masters test.

    You say you can judge the skill of the installer by things like the way the wire is routed and the amount of jacket left on a cable. Where is it stated that there should only be one inch? The NEC is a minimum of 1/4". Maybe you would like to be judged based on how many defects you miss or incorrectly identify? I enjoy telling the homeowners about the errors in the inspection reports or pointing all other obvious defects that were missed.


  28. #28
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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Jim you seem to miss the point that if the breaker fits it is ok to use. Sure you can take a hammer to make some fit where the prongs are too tight or take a screw driver to open them, and then take a sawzsall to cut a bigger hole and so on. But I do not think that anyone who has posted that it is ok to use another mfg’s if that has to be done. In today’s world companies are being bought out or going bankrupt left and right. Some merge and form bi companies. The reality is other manufactures have to step in and fill the void left to supply businesses and customers in need when a replacement or upgrade is needed in a panel box. I have worked in electrical, Plumbing and HVAC trade for almost forty years. I hold a license "master" in each of those trades but had to give up that work to both of my sons, one the master electrician, the other a master plumber, pipefitter, gas fitter , back flow and HVAC Contractor, due to a back injury. I am some what amazed to see how codes are changed and how long it takes some states to utilize and enforce the new codes. As a building inspector most of the codes are interpreted in different ways and a lot due to common sense You are somewhat correct in the amount of time you have to wait take the master’s test but, college credits, military school credits and even supervisory experience goes into the equation. Both of them and I completed all of the above. Most jurisdictions do not require a license to do the actual work but only have to have a master to get the permit. Heck the electrical union gives allowances for experience instead of requiring a journeyman’s card to work. All you have to do is taking and pass the admittance test.
    When it fits means exactly that, does the breaker fix exactly like the manufactures original, does the impendence match, voltage and is it rated for ac & r if necessary? I take it if you are way out in the country somewhere and find that you are in need of a breaker to replace and the nearest supply house is a couple hours away but the local hardware store has a suitable replacement you would rather charge the customer an extra 5 or six hours labor to get the exact mfg breaker. Use what common since you may have and rely on a proven and approved fixes.


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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    Jim you seem to miss the point that if the breaker fits it is ok to use.
    The one missing the point is you, because your statement above is totally wrong.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  30. #30
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    Angry Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    and which statement might be?Jerry do you have memory lapses too, in your earlier post you your self stated that it was ok to use a ul approved replacement breaker. What are you a quick change artist? change for what ever at any given time? Remember SOP


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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Luckily I am not that far from a supply house. However, even if I were the customers are paying for my experience, knowledge and fully expect it to be performed properly and in a code compliant manner. I would expect no less from any trademan I hired, nor would I allow anyone working under my license to install hack work that you seem to condone.

    I feel badly for all those customers over 40 some years that paid for a professional installation and may have gotten a lot less than they paid for and fully expected. I hope that your sons do not continue your cavalier attitudes towards codes and proper procedures.


  32. #32
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    Cobra Cook Guest

    Smile Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Jim where in the h--l did you read or get the impression that i ever did a hack job? Where do you think i got the name cobra? well ill tell you it was from co-workers who gave me that name because when i saw somthing wrong or unjust i would be the first to jump into action to correct it. The many hundreds of customers i have worked for or since have done inspections for have come to me by referrals only. I do not need to advertise my business in the phone or other other papers to get the amount of bussiness i wish to do.


  33. #33
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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    Jim you seem to miss the point that if the breaker fits it is ok to use.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    The one missing the point is you, because your statement above is totally wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    and which statement might be?
    The one quoted above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    Jerry do you have memory lapses too, in your earlier post you your self stated that it was ok to use a ul approved replacement breaker. What are you a quick change artist? change for what ever at any given time?
    First, you are completely incorrect on what you are saying.

    Second, you are using selective memory to remember what it is I stated.

    Thus, is deference to your using selective memory I will use that same selection process and point out the other statement in that very same post, and in fact which was THE FIRST statement of the two: "1) The only breakers allowed in a panelboard are those listed on the listing and labeling in the panelboard. UL says so."

    I will repeat:
    "1) The only breakers allowed in a panelboard are those listed on the listing and labeling in the panelboard. UL says so."

    Remember SOP
    ????

    Indeed, remember that the SoP is MINIMUM requirements, not to be confused with doing what is in the best interest for your client, which is everything above minimum - professing to do minimum work is never in the best interest of the person paying for that work, not even when they are paying minimum prices ... it is simply to difficult to do minimum and no more and not accidentally do less than the minimum required ... and doing less than minimum is, of course, not acceptable.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    Jim where in the h--l did you read or get the impression that i ever did a hack job?
    Not Jim here, but for starters ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    Jim you seem to miss the point that if the breaker fits it is ok to use.
    Just because something appears to "fit" DOES NOT mean "it is ok to use".

    Follow that with your statement about SoP and not doing any more than minimum (SoP requirements are minimum requirements) and it is easy to get the impression that you do hack jobs.

    If you do more than hack jobs, you need to explain yourself, your thinking, and why you are posting that doing hack job minimum if not only okay but that doing more than SoP minimum is a "violation" of the SoP (because doing more than is required is not a "violation" of an SoP).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Here's link to Mike Holt's forum which may help some people who want to be helped.
    Scroll down to where someone has posted a list of breakers and panels they can be used in.

    Circuit Breaker Compatibility - Mike Holt's Forum or search for "circuit breaker compatibility".

    Moderator Bob has this to add:

    I agree the panel label is the place to start.

    That said you can often find UL Classified breakers for use in panels of other manufacturer.

    This is is one of those things that makes UL look a little foolish, they say follow the label on the panel but also classify other breakers for use in those panels.

    Keep in mind classified breakers are limited to 10K fault current.


    Quote:
    Classified Circuit Breakers


    Background

    In the late 1980s Classified circuit breakers were introduced into the marketplace by Light Circuit Breaker (LCB) for use in several manufacturers panelboards including Siemens. In 1989 Siemens Energy & Automation introduced a Classified circuit breaker for use in Specified Square D panelboards. Since that time other companies including Westinghouse (Cutler-Hammer), Challenger, and T&B have also introduced Classified circuit breakers. There has always been confusion and controversy regarding these devices and what are their limitations and application.

    What They Are
    Classified circuit breakers are devices that have been investigated by UL to be suitable for replacement of specific Listed circuit breakers in specific Listed panelboards. The circuit breakers are limited to 1 and 2-pole, 15-60 Amp, 120/240 Vac and are limited to use in 225 Amp and less panelboards. Classified circuit breakers are very much like a Listed circuit breaker. In fact the same breaker may be both Listed and Classified. The Siemens Type QD circuit breaker is an example. The primary difference between Listing and Classification is that a Listed breaker also has a Listed circuit breaker enclosure to be used in while the Classified circuit breaker does not.

    Performance Requirements
    Classified circuit breakers, just like Listed circuit breakers, are tested to the requirements of UL 489, Molded-Case Circuit Breakers, Molded-Case Switches, and Circuit-Breaker Enclosures. Both devices meet all the same test requirements and have the same Follow-Up requirements. There is no difference in a Classified circuit breaker and a Listed circuit breaker as far as construction and performance are concerned. The differences occur in the use of the circuit breakers in panelboards and the requirements for the use of Classified circuit breakers actually appear in UL 67, Panelboards.

    Supplement SB of UL 67 describes the testing that Classified circuit breakers must pass. This is basically the standard panelboard requirements that Listed circuit breakers must meet. The primary difference is that the Classified circuit breakers and Listed circuit breakers are evaluated for use together in the panelboard. While the panelboard manufacturer tests the panelboard for compliance with UL 67 when the panelboard is used with specified breakers, the Classified circuit breaker manufacturer tests the panelboard to demonstrate that the panelboard is acceptable when used with the Classified breakers in place of, and with, the Listed circuit breakers. While the process is basically the same for either, the Classified testing can be much more involved since the breakers are identified as replacements and must match the specified breakers in all aspects. Also if there is more than one circuit breaker Classified for use in a panelboard all combinations of Classified and Listed circuit breakers must be tested together in the panelboard by the Classified circuit breaker manufacturer.

    Short Circuit Ratings and Series Ratings
    When the requirements for Classified breakers were being written series ratings and interrupting ratings were discussed. Many manufacturers believed that it was desirable to limit the application of Classified circuit breakers to installation ratings of 10,000A although there is no technical reason for the limitation if the breakers were tested in the specified panelboards. Series ratings were also discussed at length and it was concluded that Classified circuit breakers should not be used in series applications. While there is also no technical reason for this, the complexity of many series listings and marking requirements basically preclude using Classified circuit breakers in series applications.

    Interchangeable Circuit Breakers
    A number of manufacturers produce circuit breakers that are physically interchangeable. These are sometimes referred to as interchangeable circuit breakers and users, at times, have interpreted the fact that these circuit breakers are physically interchangeable, to be an indication that it is acceptable to use these Listed circuit breakers interchangeably in a panelboard. This is incorrect. The physical interchangeability is not an indication that they are electrically interchangeable. This must be verified by test. Unless the circuit breaker is marked on the panelboard as being acceptable or it is Classified as being acceptable, the circuit breakers have not been tested in the panelboards and should not be used.

    These physically interchangeable circuit breakers exist for a number of reasons but primarily for the interchangeability that may exist if they are tested. There are many manufacturers of panelboards and other products that do not manufacture circuit breakers. The verification of the acceptability of a Listed circuit breaker is done by the panelboard manufacturer and it is to their advantage to have a panel design that can be tested for use with circuit breakers from more than one manufacturer. Likewise it may be to the circuit breaker manufacturer’s advantage to have an interchangeable circuit breaker to participate in this OEM market.

    Circuit breaker manufacturers produce circuit breakers for use in a variety of products and any panelboard manufacturer may use any circuit breaker in his panelboard as long as he tests the combination(s) to UL 67.

    Marking and Application
    In order to provide adequate information to determine where Classified circuit breakers may be used the circuit breakers are required to have very specific markings. One problem that has shown up is that some manufacturers attempt to confuse the user by providing markings that do not contain the required information.

    Instead of providing the detailed information the markings provided by some classified circuit breaker manufacturers are very general and only deal with breaker types rather than catalog numbers, have no reference to poles or electrical ratings, and confuse the company names for the breakers they can replace. This gives the impression the breakers have a much broader application than they really do.

    The Classified circuit breaker must be marked to clarify the limitations of use on short circuit applications and series ratings. In addition each breaker is required to have a Compatibility List which, according to the UL Listing Card for Classified circuit breakers, “... tabulates the company name, catalog number, number of poles and electrical rating of the Classified circuit breaker, in addition to the company name and catalog number of the applicable UL Listed panelboards, and UL Listed circuit breakers in place of which the Classified circuit breaker has been investigated.” These markings provide the user and the AHJ with detailed information to determine where the Classified breaker has been evaluated for use.

    Code Compliance
    What about the requirements of 110-3(b) of the National Electrical Code? This Code Section requires that products be used in accordance with instructions included in their listing and labeling and the use of Classified circuit breakers does present a dilemma to some inspectors.

    The panelboard is marked to indicate the only circuit breakers to be used in the panelboard are the specific Listed circuit breakers with which the panelboards were evaluated and Listed by the panelboard manufacturer. The Classified circuit breakers, on the other hand, also have instructions included in their listing and labeling indicating the specific Listed panelboards for which they have been evaluated for use in. These are not in conflict with each other. Each manufacturer is listing and marking in accordance with the testing they have done. The Classified circuit breaker manufacturer has done testing in addition to the testing done by the panelboard manufacturer.

    The final decision on acceptance of Classified circuit breakers, as with any issue, rests with the Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ).
    From here

    Last edited by John Kogel; 11-15-2009 at 07:34 PM. Reason: Added more info

  36. #36
    Cobra Cook's Avatar
    Cobra Cook Guest

    Red face Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Thank you John, Jerry I believe you may be in the early stages of Alzheimer’s. Sorry Where do you find that SOP is the minium? How can you say that submiting an inspection report 34 pages long that outlines each step in which you may actually 2-3 times looking for certain items each time so that you will not accidently miss "anything" in your inspection. I ask my clients to follow me and feel free to ask any questions they may have.I would rather not and most times they do not follow me unber the house for their safety but i usually take very good ditigal pictures that i show them then not later. I also take pictures of each area to give them a copy on disc and in print if they prefer. I do not write up my report but give a prelimary report and explain that i prefer to take my time and look over the pictures where i can blow up the size so to make sure i do not miss anything, then i document every thing in my report. No I do not nick pit a house like some do because maybe they do not have the training or experience but i have heard of horrow stories of inspections from agents and clients. I would love to go up against you in court if that ever happened to see how my inspections and my SOP would hold up. I somtimes spend as much time going over notes and photos to ensure i give my clients the best and most consistant inspection service possible. Also I do not write up every problem seen that a engineer, electrician, plumber or other specialsist is needed like appearently you need to do to cya. Mine is covered in the inspection I am trained to give.



  37. #37
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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    Where do you find that SOP is the minium?
    Jeez, the guy apparently does not even read the replies to his posts: http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...tml#post108779 (see post #32, highlighted in bold red text for you)

    Mine is covered in the inspection I am trained to give.
    "I am trained to give."

    Therein seems to lie the problem ... either lack of training or did not understand the training.

    If you were trained to give only the minimum then you were trained wrong.

    If you were trained that the SoP was the minimum you are required to do, and you think that SoP are not minimum, then you did not understand the training.

    Let me know which and I will try to help correct your training or your understanding of it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  38. #38
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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post
    Thank you John, Jerry I believe you may be in the early stages of Alzheimer’s. Sorry Where do you find that SOP is the minium? How can you say that submiting an inspection report 34 pages long that outlines each step in which you may actually 2-3 times looking for certain items each time so that you will not accidently miss "anything" in your inspection. I ask my clients to follow me and feel free to ask any questions they may have.I would rather not and most times they do not follow me unber the house for their safety but i usually take very good ditigal pictures that i show them then not later. I also take pictures of each area to give them a copy on disc and in print if they prefer. I do not write up my report but give a prelimary report and explain that i prefer to take my time and look over the pictures where i can blow up the size so to make sure i do not miss anything, then i document every thing in my report. No I do not nick pit a house like some do because maybe they do not have the training or experience but i have heard of horrow stories of inspections from agents and clients. I would love to go up against you in court if that ever happened to see how my inspections and my SOP would hold up. I somtimes spend as much time going over notes and photos to ensure i give my clients the best and most consistant inspection service possible. Also I do not write up every problem seen that a engineer, electrician, plumber or other specialsist is needed like appearently you need to do to cya. Mine is covered in the inspection I am trained to give.
    So you impersonate a Home Inspector AND a Doctor?


  39. #39
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    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    Quote Originally Posted by Cobra Cook View Post


    is the minium?

    How can you say that submiting an inspection report 34 pages
    .
    Purchased Pamphlets Do Not Count as Pages in a HI Report.

    * The Red Underlines Means Your Spelling is incorrect.
    .

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  40. #40
    John Steinke's Avatar
    John Steinke Guest

    Default Re: Challenger panel with GE and Westinghouse breakers

    I think both points of view have been adequately expressed in this thread. Let the reader decide.

    Remember, anyone can claim anything on the internet.

    I've had a list of 'three things' folks can say that indicate they know just enough to be dangerous. I'll have to add 'it's just a test' to that list. Saying that really exhibits great ignorance; rather like saying all Mike Phelps did was swim fast.

    Finally, sometimes it's best to let an ignorant post go by without comment. Let the guy swing in the breeze, hung by his own post.


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