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  1. #1
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    There were about 4 can lights in this attic, none of which had labels indicating whether they are IC or not. Does any recognize this prarticular model.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    What is sold around here at least ... the silver cans are IC, the white cans are not IC.

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    It also depends on the type of finish ring they use on the light can.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    Can lights in that position should be both IC and AT (air-tight) rated.

    What is the space between the housing & the joist or bottom chord (looks to be less than an inch)?

    P.S. What's up with the burried in insulation extension cord or communications cable (between can light & joist or bottom chord)?

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-10-2009 at 11:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    P.S. What's up with the burried in insulation extension cord or communications cable (between can light & joist or bottom chord)?

    That looks like yellow "Romex" to me.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    That fixture looks like a remodel can, and Halo is sold heavily at Orange Depot, so who knows what was installed and how it was done.

    I think the IC label is stuck inside the can, adjacent to the light bulb.

    Dom.


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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom D'Agostino View Post
    That looks like yellow "Romex" to me.
    I agree, it might be 12 awg NM, however, its location proximity between housing & joist or bottom chord & its apparent unsecured on the other side of the insulation bay is still questioned.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    It was a remodel, and likely a DIY. There was Romex all over the place in the attic and the can was a 1/2 inch from the cord.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    This is a link to the UL marking guide for luminaires:

    http://www.ul.com/global/eng/documen...2006_Final.pdf

    See pages 30-32.

    Can't say on a convertable luminaire from a picture from above alone.

    "Inherently Protected" can = IC, depends if lense/difuser added, and as SP said the trim. We weren't there to look at the backside of the trim ring, or in the can for the labeling (seen when lamp is removed).


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    Some brands stamp IC on the top of the can some don't.
    They all are required to have the listing on the inside.
    This is where you look to see if it's an IC rated or not.

    I do believe the trim has zero (0) to do with the IC rating.
    It is the way the cans are made that gives it the IC rating or not as it's the can that is in the insulation.
    (IC stands for Insulation Coverage)

    The trims come into play when it is in a damp location ( exterior or shower etc) and for the type and wattage of lamp that can be installed.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    This is a link to the UL marking guide for luminaires:

    http://www.ul.com/global/eng/documen...2006_Final.pdf

    See pages 30-32.

    Can't say on a convertable luminaire from a picture from above alone.

    "Inherently Protected" can = IC, depends if lense/difuser added, and as SP said the trim. We weren't there to look at the backside of the trim ring, or in the can for the labeling (seen when lamp is removed).
    Realizing a poor choice of word there since many refer to these as "can" lights, the use of the word "can" above highlighted in orange was meant to mean can as in ABLE TO BE: "Inherently Protected" labeled may equal Insulation Contact (or IC).

    Key to discussion is Convertable luminaire. This is detailed in the manufacturer's instructions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ken horak View Post
    Some brands stamp IC on the top of the can some don't.
    They all are required to have the listing on the inside.
    This is where you look to see if it's an IC rated or not.

    I do believe the trim has zero (0) to do with the IC rating.
    It is the way the cans are made that gives it the IC rating or not as it's the can that is in the insulation.
    (IC stands for Insulation Coverage)

    The trims come into play when it is in a damp location ( exterior or shower etc) and for the type and wattage of lamp that can be installed.
    Please see the UL marking guide for luminaires (recessed luminaires section) and the manufacturer's instructions. Perhaps then you will "believe" Ken Horak. Halo did (for decades) and may continue to make convertible recessed luminaires. Lighting suppliers to the trade offer more than Big Orange.

    Examples (going purely from memory dating from the 70s, 80s & 90s are wall washer trims, eyeballs, converters (screw in socket along with grounding wire to can) for smaller type lamps (hallogen, etc.) - all of which would often "blow" any previous "contact" provisions; then of course the required insulation temperature rating of the supply.

    Interesting that you have brought up the likely DAMP LOCATION with the unconditioned (insulated floor) attic, but that's another topic discussion.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    For those that are unable or unwilling to download a pdf from the clickable link to the UL Marking Guide for Luminaires, previously provided and referenced (pages 30-32 of the 33 page pdf document) and assuming the subject luminaire(s) are suitable for residential installation I'm quoting note 34 from Installation Instructions, as well as the entirety (uneditied) of the notes in the section titled "Recessed Luminaire Markings":

    Quote Originally Posted by UL Marking Guide for Luminaires

    INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS
    - 34. INSTALLATION INSTRUCTION FOR CONVERTIBLE INCANDESCENT RECESSED LUMINAIRE -- A convertible recessed incandescent luminare housing (rough-in section) is provided with instructions that tell the installer to remove the peel-off label with the text described in note 64, for Type IC installations.

    RECESSED LUMINAIRE MARKINGS

    - 55. CLEARANCE AND INSTALLATION -- Recessed luinaires may be installed in insulated or uninsulated ceilings (or walls when marked for wall mounting) depending on their type of Listing as follows:
    -- a. Suitable for Installation in Direct Contact with Insulation -- These luminaires are marked "TYPE IC", or "INHERENTLY PROCTECTED", and may be installed where thermal insulation is placed in direct contact with the sides and top of the luminaire. They are protected against overheating by either thermal protection (See Note 58), or are inherently protected (See Note 59).
    -- b. Suitable for Installation Only in Poured Concrete -- These luminaires are restricted to use only in a fire resistant medium such as concrete, and are marked "FOR USE IN CONCRETE ONLY". An in-ground recessed luminaire may alternately be marked "SUITABLE FOR GROUNDMOUNTED RECESSED ONLY".
    -- c. Luminaires Requiring Minimum Spacing from Thermal Insulation and Combustibles (Type Non-IC) -- Luminaires that are NOT marked "TYPE IC", "INHERENTLY PROTECTED", are referred to as Type Non-IC Recessed luminaires. The luminaires are intended to be installed where minimum spacings are maintained between the luminaire and combustibles, side walls, and overhead building members, and may be identified by the spacing-to-thermalinsulation marking as specified in Note 63. There are different purposes for the spacings. The minimum spacing to combustibles reduces the risk of the luminaire heat igniting combustibles. This spacing is always a minimum of 1/2 inch, unless the luminaire is marked "INSTALL WITH MINIMUM SPACINGS BETWEEN (a) CENTER-TO-CENTER OF ADJACENT LUMINAIRES" __mm (__in.): (b) TOP OF LUMINAIRE-TO-OVERHEAD BUILDING MEMBER: __mm (__in.); and (c) LUMINAIRE CENTER-TO-SIDE BUILDING MEMBER: __mm(__in.)". The blank spaces will be replaced by the minimum distances required.
    -- d. Suitable for Installation Only in Environmental Air Handling Spaces -- These luminaires are restricted for use only in an environmental air handling space and are marked "INSTALL ONLY IN ENVIRONMENTAL AIR HANDLING SPACES WHERE A COMPLETE METAL ENCLOSED WIRING SYSTEM IS PROVIDED".

    -56 TYPE NON-IC -- Recessed luminaires that are NOT suitable for installation in direct contact with combustible materials or thermal insulation, including insulation installed over the top of the luminaire that entraps heat (Type Non-IC) are marked "DO NOT INSTALL INSULATION WITHIN 76mm (3 in.) OF ANY PART OF THE LUMINAIRE".

    - 57. TYPE IC -- A luminaire marked "TYPE IC" may be installed where insulation and combustible materials are placed in direct contact with the sides and the top of the luminaire.

    - 58. LIGHT BLINKING, THERMAL PROTECTION -- Recessed luminaires provided with thermal protection to sense overheating conditions are marked "BLINKING LIGHT OF THIS THERMALLY PROTECTED LUMINAIRE MAY INDICATE OVERHEATING" to alert the user of a potential overheating condition.

    - 59. INHERENTLY PROTECTED -- Luminaires that are intended for installation in direct contact with thermal insualtion and combustible material, and are designed so that overheating conditions cannot be caused by overlamping or mislamping, are not thermally protected and are marked "INHERENTLY PROTECTED".

    - 60. TRIM CORRELATION -- A recessed luminaire is marked "USE WITH (manufacturer's name) (catalog number) TRIMS ONLY". The trims are marked with the manufacturer's name and catalog number.

    - 61. CONVERTIBLE INCANDESCENT RECESSED LUMINAIRE (TYPE IC/NON-TYPE IC) -- Convertible recessed incandescent luminaires can be installed in either insulated (Type IC) or non-insulated (noninsulated type IC) applications. The trim (finishing section) and light source determine the Type IC or Non-IC appliaction of the luminaire. Convertible luminaires have been evaluated with respect to risk of fire by performance testing under conditions of misappliaction of lamps or trims. Installation instructions are provided that tell the installer to remove the marking relating to spacing to thermal installation when the luminaire is installed as intended as a Type IC luminaire in an insulated ceiling application (See note 34).

    - 62. CONVERTIBLE (TYPE NON-IC/IC) TRIM IDENTIFICATION -- The trim (finishing section) for a convertible recessed incandescent luminaire is provied with correlation markings which identify the trim/luminaire (finishing/rough-in section) combinations that are suitable for either Type IC or Non-Type IC installation.

    - 63. ROUGH-IN AND FINISHING SECTIONS -- Some recessed luminaires are intended to be installed in two parts. The Rough-In Section usually consists of the plaster frame and junction box, and is marked "ROUGH-IN SECTION FOR USE WITH FINISHING SECTION ______", or ROUGH-IN SECTION ______ FOR CONVERTIBLE RECESSED LUMINAIRE". The blanks are replaced by catalog numbers or series designations. The Finishing Section usually consists of the recessed housing and trim; it is marked with the manufacturer's identification and catalogue number. A convertible recessed luminaire trim/finishing section is also marked "FINISHING-SECTION FOR USE WITH ROUGH-IN SECTION __________". The blanks are replaced by the catalog number or series designations. If a light diffuser is not provide, an additional marking on the finishing section indicates that the luminaire must not be used with a light diffuser.

    - 64. RECESSED TRACK FOR RECESSED LUMINAIRE ASSEMBLIES -- A recessed track channel for recessed luminaire assemblies and intended for installation in a wall or ceiling cavity where thermal insulation is spaced at least 3 inches away from the recessed channel is marked "WARNING -- RISK OF FIRE. DO NOT INSTALL INSULATION WITHIN 3 INCHES OF RECESSED CHANNEL IN SUCH A MANNER TO ENTRAP HEAT" OR EQUIVALENT. In addition, a recessed track channel for recessed luminaire assemblies is marked "NOTICE -- THERMALLY PROTECTED TRACK (OR LUMINAIRES). BLINKING LIGHTING MAY INDICATE INSULATION TOO CLOSE TO TRACK (OR OTHER CONDITION CAUSING OVERHEATING)".

    - 65. RECESSED LUMINAIRE ASSEMBLIES -- A recessed luminaire assembly intended for use with a recessed track system is marked with its minimum spacing to adjacent assemblies.



  13. #13
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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    This is the original post:
    There were about 4 can lights in this attic, none of which had labels indicating whether they are IC or not. Does any recognize this prarticular model

    The picture with the first post showed a HALO recessed light. The question was about a model.

    Post number 8 states it was a remodel, so the fixtures are newer

    I went to the Cooper Lighting web site as they are the manufacture of Halo brand lighting.
    Halo does not offer a convertible incandescent recess light fixture. (I'm sure they did back in the day , but these are newer ones remember.)

    Halo recess are either listed IC or Non-IC.

    Seeing how the original post was about a HALO recess light ... The trim makes no difference on a HALO recess light. (The spec sheets even list the same trims for both IC and Non-IC.)

    HG Watson-
    I do understand about convertible recess, but these are not convertibles.

    I also know that "Lighting suppliers to the trade offer more than Big Orange." I was not basing my replies on some big box supply ,instead it is based on the manufactures products in general.
    My response was based on the original post about HALO recess, my web research, and my knowledge. NOT on the UL white book listings of luminaires. I am not unable or unwilling to download a pdf, rather I prefer to look it up myself in the UL white book on desk.


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    KH: I do not agree with any of your assumptions, statements as fact (I dispute as not fact/s), presumptions or conclusions. Pointless to discuss with you further you make wild belief statements that are not based on facts, and you ability to read and comprehend (even catalog listings) spec sheets is suspect.

    Halo was incorporated in 1958, and went public in 1961. McGraw Edision acquired Halo in 1967, and combined the divisions in them in 1980. Cooper Industries acquired McGraw Edison in 1985. Cooper Lighting was formed in 1987.

    Cooper Lighting | Company | History

    Halo

    Are these H7 family incandescents? don't know even if they are incandescents. Can I scale the size of the housing from the pic? perhaps but ideally accurately not to the specifics to tell a 5" from a six. Are these energy star? don't know. Are these damp rated? don't know. Are these AT as installed? don't know. Not enough information. Are these Type IC as installed? don't know. Are these Inherently Protected? don't know. Are these of a model number presently being produced and per current listing/standards? don't know. When was the remodel done? don't know (anyway could be older stock). The arms tell us these aren't the "remodeling" type housings.

    Converted? could be, don't know. Don't have x-ray vision nor telepathy and cannot devine the answers.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-11-2009 at 10:00 AM.

  15. #15
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    All of this is really interesting but the fact remains that as an inspector you did your job in looking for markings that would tell you whether or not the can light/recessed light/who gives a crud what the code calls it (still a can light), is built to be in contact with insulation. You saw no markings or stickers. Write it up for further eval with an electrician.

    Yeah, i know, we must know everything. Simply false. We look. We see no obvious stamps/labels, we write it up. Some are under the impression that we should scrape, dig out from under, decode etc etc. Absolutely wrong. We look, we don't see, we write it up.


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    All of this is really interesting but the fact remains that as an inspector you did your job in looking for markings that would tell you whether or not the can light/recessed light/who gives a crud what the code calls it (still a can light), is built to be in contact with insulation. You saw no markings or stickers. Write it up for further eval with an electrician.

    Yeah, i know, we must know everything. Simply false. We look. We see no obvious stamps/labels, we write it up. Some are under the impression that we should scrape, dig out from under, decode etc etc. Absolutely wrong. We look, we don't see, we write it up.
    I respectfully disagree. This has not been observed and cannot be determined/observed definiatively from this view of the luminaire/light fixture.

    The fixture should be marked from the lamped side. Observing the Listed markings are no different then opening a door or panel. This hasn't been done, and we have no photos of the side which would be marked (from inside the house).


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    You need to look on the inside of the cans, removing the trim in some cases, to determine the type. HALO uses a series of letters to identify the type of can or you can just check their website.

    For example an "H27RICT" would be a shallow 6" incandescent remodel insulation-contact air tight recessed lighting can.


  18. #18
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Halo Can Lights, IC Or Not

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I respectfully disagree. This has not been observed and cannot be determined/observed definiatively from this view of the luminaire/light fixture.

    The fixture should be marked from the lamped side. Observing the Listed markings are no different then opening a door or panel. This hasn't been done, and we have no photos of the side which would be marked (from inside the house).

    From the original post and also nothing in further post of not looking inside

    "none of which had labels" This is all one has to go by. Being who he is I am assuming he already looked inside.

    As far as "the luminaires"

    It's nice to be technical but I know a serious amount of home inspectors and I do not know any that burden their clients with that terminology.

    Light fixtures, can lights, recessed lights etc. Yeah I know some home buyers know what luminaries mean but they all look at you cock eyed if you use those terms.

    To the clients .... "Keep it simple stupid" ... is the wise quote to follow. They appreciate simple terms and easy, simple explanations. You will not get calls about not understanding. Or misunderstanding. Or clarification. Matter of fact I almost get absolute zero calls about any inspection I have ever done.

    No disrespect intended.


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