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  1. #1
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    Default Moisture in panel

    Moisture has gotten into this panel in the past. It was dry at the time of inspection. How serious is this? And yes, there is a lot of overspray in the panel.


    Jim Murphy

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Replacement should be recomended.
    Next, has the source of water been corrected?

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  3. #3
    Ryan Stouffer's Avatar
    Ryan Stouffer Guest

    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Jim, did you mention the grounds and neutrals on the same bar?


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Stouffer View Post
    Jim, did you mention the grounds and neutrals on the same bar?
    Hmmmm.

    Grounding & grounded under the same terminal screw (L side photo), stranded (looks silvery on the insulation side perhaps was tinned first with solder) netural (R side photo) at the terminal. Four grounds in one terminal (don't know of one that allows four) is this labeled & listed for multiple terminations?

    The panel may likely need to be condemmed too much else going on corrosion, spray, etc.) with terminal screws so questionable torque and other unknown deterioration not good. Did you notify the occupants/owner of the conditions you found and concerns about what you could not see/determine? Is this panel outdoors. Near marine/salt spray environment? Nearby water treatment/softener?

    From one of the mounting holes unfilled with a fastener - through the hole looks like its directly flat up against/resting on concrete.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-11-2009 at 08:29 AM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    "Near marine/salt spary environment?"

    Daniel Island, SC.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell, 108290
    "Near marine/salt spary environment?"

    Daniel Island, SC

    I was correcting typo as you were posting.


    Is this panel outdoors. Near marine/salt spray environment?

    What was your point?

    Map of Daniel Island, SC by MapQuest

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-11-2009 at 08:51 AM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    I reccommended that the panel be evaluated and replaced by a certified electrician. The house is a block off of the beach.


  8. #8

    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Are those different Makes (Manufactures) of Breakers?
    If they are call it out.


  9. #9
    Fred Warner's Avatar
    Fred Warner Guest

    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    The NECA site has an informational download for free which will make a good addition to your library. NEMA - Evaluating Water-Damaged Electrical Equipment


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Warner View Post
    The NECA site has an informational download for free which will make a good addition to your library. NEMA - Evaluating Water-Damaged Electrical Equipment
    Thanks
    Thats good information

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  11. #11
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    Thanks
    Thats good information
    My pleasure.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Is this panel outdoors. Near marine/salt spray environment?

    What was your point?

    Map of Daniel Island, SC by MapQuest

    H.G.,

    You need to chill out a bit.

    I believe his point was that YOU said marine/salt spray and HE gave the information as to WHY YOU said that ... i.e., on the island.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Every home inspector should have, and read, this book: http://www.fema.gov/pdf/fima/pbuffd_complete_book.pdf

    Go to page 2-21, read 2.9.1 ... which goes through to page 2-29.

    Bacially that same information.

    If you want a hard copy, or want hard copies to hand out to your association (local chapter, etc.) simply contact FEMA and they will send them to you free. I did this back in 1999/2000 when that bood was first published. I order 150 of them and passed them out to our local chapter members and FABI members.

    I've recommended that book here several times before.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Am chilled, no need to chill further. Parts of Daniel Island are more protected than some other areas of Charleston, a river & a creek make it an "island". Its not like the outer banks. Anyway The property & panel in question could have been anywhere in the greater Charleston area for all we know. Wouldn't presume one would limit themselves to HIs in a singular small community, its not like one needs a ferry to get out and about.

    My question regarding subject to marine/salt spray followed question "Is this panel outdoors." I also mentioned other corrosive environments and was illuding to direct water flow infiltration might not be the culprit, excessive humidity and marine location could do it as could other conditions.

    If the Georgian with the underlining for emphasis of Island was thinking that I hadn't noted the location of the HI, was assuming I hadn't seen that (like it was a stupid question) or was assuming any location with the word Island in it is actually an island, or that any island with a costal state is miles out out in the middle of the ocean, or surrounded by a singular body of water, or didn't realize its an area of Charleston, to North & East of downtown Charleston, well, I provided a map quest link.

    Had some trouble with your link JP, will try again after running some clean up programs in the a.m. think I might have a hicup on an adobe file, but can you say when the last time it (the "book") was updated is? (too often with FEMA stuff is outdated with references, just curious if you might already know, or can d/l it quickly to check).

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-11-2009 at 09:59 PM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    His location is Daniel Island SC, so, I think it's safe to presume he and the subject property are represented to be near the coast.

    "If the Georgian ... Most people call me "Rick", some "Mr. Cantrell", but if you prefer, you may call me " The Georgian".

    with the underlining for emphasis of Island was thinking that I hadn't noted the location of the HI,was assuming I hadn't seen that ..."
    Yes, I did think you overlooked the location.
    (like it was a stupid question) "
    No not stupid, just human.

    or was assuming any location with the word Island in it is actually an island,"
    Well yes, I do assume any location with the word "Island" in it to actually be an Island.

    "or that any island with a costal state is miles out out in the middle of the ocean, or surrounded by a singular body of water, or didn't realize its an area of Charleston, to North & East of downtown Charleston, well, I provided a map quest link.
    Yeah, thanks for the map link. You do realize though, that the effects of ocean spray can be several miles inland.

    Bottom line is:
    You apparently (to me) overlooked Island. I pointed it out to you in as friendly and helpful way as I know how. But you being You, want to make it known that you, did not overlook anything, and then give a geography lesson. Boy you sure are smart to know so much.
    I'm just glad this dumb ol Georgian has you around to teach me all your wisdom and knowledge. Thanks
    BTW you misspelled coastal, not that I would have known, spell check caught it.
    Oh, but you already knew that, didn't you?

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    "or that any island with a costal state is miles out out in the middle of the ocean,"

    What do you mean with "any island with a costal state"
    You used "out" twice.
    I thought that state should be "State"

    Could you please explain the English language to me.

    My point is that maybe, just maybe, you are human and you did overlook island.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Is HG Watson really HG Watson? Outside of this discussion board I can not locate any information on Mr. Watson. Does anyone know if this is a alter ego of one of our long time posters?

    Does HG have a website?

    Where does HG live?

    Will the real Mr. Watson please stand up!

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    "Where does HG live?"

    Snowbird Fl

    Here we go again!

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    "Where does HG live?"

    Snowbird Fl

    Here we go again!
    No such place in FL......

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  20. #20

    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    The panel should be a clean environment, rust is a big problem, seal as needed. They have a chemical to clean panels now days! have wired propelry.


    Rolland Pruner
    Livermore, Ca


  21. #21
    Rod Hummel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    If I may comment on Mr. Watson:

    I have seen a comment or two in the last month about Mr. Watson's posts, expressing concern about what the general public might think about inspectors if they were to read or take notice of Mr. Watson's posts...well, I am such a person.

    Why am I on this site? I take great joy in working on my home, and like many of you, want to perform such work in a proper manner, following applicable codes. To state it simply, I want to do it right.

    Of course, DIY sites abound on the internet. But this is the one place I frequent the most, because of the depth of knowledge that abounds, the helpful and friendly nature (for the most part), the comraderie, and the real-life situations that inevitably are shown.

    But I must say I about cringe when I see Mr. Watson's avatar, for I know that what is inevitably coming is gratuitous snide and undeserved personal attacks upon either the original or follow-up poster.

    I know that more often than not Mr. Watson will strive to find a connection to something either not asked or remarked upon by the OP or person being generous enough to offer further information, and he will use that opportunity for futher undeserved attacks.

    In my 30 years serving as a police officer, I have often run across those with the same issues as Mr. Watson. It is almost inevitably a problem of low self-esteem in those whose only way to make themselves appear superior is by making another inferior.

    Now, all of us pretty much do things that we want to do, and for the most part do things that make us feel good. For the vast majority on this site, I believe the impetus for posting is to help serve their fellow inspectors.

    For Mr. Watson, I feel confident his posting serves to fuel his need to show his superior knowledge of the various subjects, and to do while dimishing others fulfills his need to stoke his self-esteem.

    Mr. Watson, your knowledge of the various trades is evident. As Mr. Peck said in another post (words to the effect) "You COULD be an asset to this board." So true.

    I urge you to ponder upon your life and to reflect on why you take such great pleasure in the diminishment of others. And not for us, but for you and your family. All of us on here can ignore you, or chose not to view this site.

    But for those who are close to you, for those who must interact with you by family or business interests....please think about why you CHOOSE to behave in this manner. We're all going to be dead a long, long, time...and we all ought to take every opportunity we can to treat our fellow man well while we're still here.

    Mt. Watson, and with all due respect, I know your first reaction will be to hit reply and to respond with force. But I urge you to not do so...to take the evening and reflect on what I have offered. For your sake, your family's sake, and for those who frequent this board.

    Again...it it obvious that you have much to offer. But I for one am tired of your childish attacks. It's so unneccessary. And the only person who is truly being diminished is you.

    And please, please, do not respond and say you're trying to make other people "think." That's not true, and you know it.


  22. #22
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    His location is Daniel Island SC, so, I think it's safe to presume he and the subject property are represented to be near the coast.

    . . .

    or was assuming any location with the word Island in it is actually an island,"
    Well yes, I do assume any location with the word "Island" in it to actually be an Island.
    Have you been to Rhode Island? While there are island off the coast Rhode Island is not an island.

    And Rock Island, IL is a city located on the banks of the Mississippi River. It is not located on an island.

    Last edited by Bruce Breedlove; 11-12-2009 at 05:12 PM. Reason: Added Rock Island
    "Baseball is like church. Many attend but few understand." Leo Durocher
    Bruce Breedlove
    www.avaloninspection.com

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Thanks Bruce
    I'll keep that in mind.

    Last edited by Rick Cantrell; 11-12-2009 at 06:52 PM.
    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    but can you say when the last time it (the "book") was updated is? (too often with FEMA stuff is outdated with references, just curious if you might already know, or can d/l it quickly to check).

    H.G.,

    To my knowledge, that is the same edition they are currently using (FEMA 348, Protecting Building Utilities from Flood Damage, First Edition, 06/1999).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    H.G.,

    To my knowledge, that is the same edition they are currently using (FEMA 348, Protecting Building Utilities from Flood Damage, First Edition, 06/1999).
    Jerry, is this true? The US is going metric? Quote from the FEMA booklet :
    1.1.3 Metrification
    The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) is committed to the
    federal government’s transition to the metric system. However, in most cases
    English units remain the standard of practice for construction. Therefore,
    this manual has been prepared using English units.
    However, it is foreseeable that the metric system may be the standard of measurement
    in this country in the future.

    Canada went metric in 1970 something. It ain't so bad. Speed Limit's 110 in some places
    (km per hr).



  26. #26
    John Steinke's Avatar
    John Steinke Guest

    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Surprisingly enough, there is no expectation that the inside of a panel (or other electrical enclosure) remain absolutely dry, under all conditions.

    Instead, the tests for the various NEMA enclosures simply expect that, after the test, an 'objectionable' amount of water not have accumulated. "Objectionable,; in the case of a panel, usually means 'not deep enough to reach the bussbars.'

    Moisture may also enter with the air in humid places, then condense out onto the internal panel surfaces. There is absolutely no NEMA enclosure that is designed to prevent this, or test procedure to evaluate for this.

    Indeed, in industrial environments, the best solution is to make sure the water has a way out of the enclosure. Heating strips may also be added to the insides.


  27. #27
    JORY LANNES's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Thanks Fred for the link. I did an inspection last week in a new Chicago condo/hotel. The panel and breakers with no main breaker installedwere over sprayed . I called out the over spray and the location of the main breaker in a locked "electric closet" where the meters were located.The client's attorney asked the building to replace the panel,breakers and install a "main" in the panel. The building refused. My client walked.This was a 900 SQ FT condo selling for a bargin $600,000. The selling agent who I had done many inspections for called me an anal @%$#* deal killer. She sent me a copy of an email that she sent to every agent in her office advising not to use me for inspections.

    LIFE IS GRAND. HAPPY HOLIDAYS


  28. #28
    Fred Warner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Moisture in panel

    Quote Originally Posted by JORY LANNES View Post
    Thanks Fred for the link. I did an inspection last week in a new Chicago condo/hotel. The panel and breakers with no main breaker installedwere over sprayed . I called out the over spray and the location of the main breaker in a locked "electric closet" where the meters were located.The client's attorney asked the building to replace the panel,breakers and install a "main" in the panel. The building refused. My client walked.This was a 900 SQ FT condo selling for a bargin $600,000. The selling agent who I had done many inspections for called me an anal @%$#* deal killer. She sent me a copy of an email that she sent to every agent in her office advising not to use me for inspections.

    LIFE IS GRAND. HAPPY HOLIDAYS
    You're welcome. Yes, life is grand. Happy Holidays to you, too.


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