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  1. #1
    Jon mackay's Avatar
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    Default Knob and Tube Splice

    I know that this is not a correct splice into the knob and tube but I was wondering if it would be acceptable to install a junction box here or if more extensive repairs are needed.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon mackay View Post
    .
    more extensive repairs are needed.
    .
    Jon,

    Knob & Tube Wiring Can Not be Covered .
    * It's a Fire Hazard as shown in your Photo.

    Defer to a Component License Electrician.
    .

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    Based on the little bit I can see that looks very similar to the way that K&T was originally spliced. The old splices were twisted around the main run and then taped. They may have been soldered before taping but I never had that much curiosity to open one up.

    The use of the insulation around the K&T is improper as has been mentioned.

    The ungrounded circuit should not have been extended either.


  4. #4

    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    Not saying I like it, but knob and tube wiring is allowed to be covered with insulation in Oregon.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post

    Not saying I like it, but knob and tube wiring is allowed to be covered with insulation in Oregon.
    .
    Being Allowed Doesn't Make It Less Of a Fire Hazard.
    .

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  6. #6
    Ron Bibler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    Few insurance companies will cover a home with K&T.

    Best

    Ron
    SANTA ROSA PEST CONTROL .COM


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Bibler View Post
    Few insurance companies will cover a home with K&T.

    Best

    Ron
    SANTA ROSA PEST CONTROL .COM
    1.All new splices to K+T must be made in junction boxes. The implication is that soldering branch circuit wiring properly is a lost art, probably right. I believe that is a Canadian EC rule.

    2. I think that white grounded cable would be a new feeder from the new breaker. They usually splice in to the K+T wiring somewhere for the bedroom lights, and some of the original outlets. That should be done with wire nuts in a J-box.

    3. If K+T is buried under insulation, it could be damaged by boxes of storage or from people stepping on them.

    4. It should be left out for the next Home Inspector to find.

    5. That goes double for attics with vermiculite in them.

    Last edited by John Kogel; 12-01-2009 at 09:30 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    Knob and Tube is not permitted to be covered by "loose,rolled,or foamed-in-place insulation as per NEC article 394.12

    The amazing thing is:

    Nec Article 394.10-
    Knob and Tube IS permitted to be installed when extending an existing installation (I'm betting no jurisdiction would allow it)

    Article 394.56
    Splices shall be soldered unless approved splicing devices are used. In-line or strain splices shall not be used

    In the picture it looks like that is a NM cable spliced to the K & T, ??


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    Not saying I like it, but knob and tube wiring is allowed to be covered with insulation in Oregon.
    Can you cite the source that permits K&T to be covered with insulation?

    Or, is this just what you have been told or heard?

    I'm not trying to pick on you, but I have never seen anything in print that permits K&T to be covered by insulation.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    The use of the insulation around the K&T is improper as has been mentioned.

    And they even put the fire starter paper against the K&T wiring, just to make sure it gets a good start before having to feed on itself.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #11

    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore
    Not saying I like it, but knob and tube wiring is allowed to be covered with insulation in Oregon.


    Can you cite the source that permits K&T to be covered with insulation?

    Or, is this just what you have been told or heard?

    I'm not trying to pick on you, but I have never seen anything in print that permits K&T to be covered by insulation.
    Pick away, and I hope I am wrong. I have chosen to write it up as a concern for as long as I can remember. I seem to remember reading something showing that insulation was allowed to be installed over it as long as the wires were inspected prior to the insulation being installed. I'll get back to you with an answer. I hope I prove myself wrong.....

    After a quick search I found an article with this paragraph:
    1.10 Knob and tube electrical wiring is often found in the walls and attics of older homes. The possibility
    that insulation may trap heat produced by overloaded knob and tube wiring circuits requires
    insulation shall be kept 3 inches away from any live knob and tube wiring. Depending on agency
    policy, Oregon Building Code allows insulation to be installed over, around or in contact with knob
    and tube wiring if the following conditions are satisfied. (Oregon Building Codes Division, Temporary
    Rule effective January 1, 1993; Amends Part VI of the 1990 Edition of the Oregon One and Two

    Family Dwelling Specialty Code). See Appendix AA for sample electrical inspection report.
    Here is the link to the site where I pulled the above paragraph: http://www.ohcs.oregon.gov/OHCS/CRD/...ion1_Attic.pdf


    Here ya go:
    918-305-0180
    Amend Article 394 -- Concealed Knob-and-Tube Wiring
    Section 394.12 Uses Not Permitted. Add the following to the end of Section 394.12: Exception: The provisions of Section 394.12 shall not be construed to prohibit the installation of loose or rolled thermal insulating materials in spaces containing existing knob-and-tube wiring, provided all the following conditions are met:
    (1) The visible wiring shall be inspected by a certified electrical inspector or a general supervising electrician employed by a licensed electrical contractor.
    (2) All defects found during the inspection shall be repaired prior to the installation of insulation.
    (3) Repairs, alterations or extensions of or to the electrical systems shall be inspected by a certified electrical inspector.
    (4) The insulation shall have a flame spread rating not to exceed 25 and a smoke density not to exceed 450 when tested in accordance with ASTM E84-91A 2005 Edition. Foamed in place insulation shall not be used with knob-and-tube wiring.
    (5) Exposed splices or connections shall be protected from insulation by installing flame resistant, non-conducting, open top enclosures which provide three inches, but not more than four inches side clearances, and a vertical clearance of at least four inches above the final level of the insulation.
    (6) All knob-and-tube circuits shall have overcurrent protection in compliance with the 60 degree C column of Table 310-16 of NFPA 70-2008. Overcurrent protection shall be either circuit breakers or type S fuses. The type S fuse adapters shall not accept a fuse of an ampacity greater than permitted in Section 240.53.
    [Publications: Publications referenced are available from the agency.]
    Info taken from here: Building Codes Division_918_305


    Last edited by Brandon Whitmore; 12-01-2009 at 09:52 PM. Reason: added info.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    Interesting stuff.... Maybe I'm just a skeptic but it seems like it would be easier to run new wire as opposed to complying with all the rules. Not to mention the obvious fact that you'd then have new wire instead of covered up old wire.

    Leave it to Oregon.... I guess nothing should surprise me coming from the state with no sales tax that won't let you pump your own gas


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    Here's a couple of photo's from a recent inspection. 100 amp service but most of the home was K&T. Only three lights on the second floor and no outlets.

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    I guess Oregon feels that only the splices get hot and that no other part of the wires would need to radiate heat? Given the age of the insulation I am surprised they did not require the OCPD to be downgraded to limit the heat.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    I would still call it out regardless of what the powers to be say in OR. You will be the one getting the call when the home burns down!!

    You can't pump your own gas in Oregon??

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
    www.traceinspections.com

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post

    You can't pump your own gas in Oregon??
    .
    New Jersey as Well.
    .

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    You can't pump your own gas in Oregon??
    Not everyone in OR is smart enough to figure it out, so we all take a hit.

    We can pump our own diesel, and can pump our own gas at commercial card lock places only.
    Went to WA last week. I sat in the car at the station for about a minute before I realized that I was suddenly qualified to pump my own gas.

    But hey, we don't have a sales tax.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    I'm not really sure the wire getting hot enough to start a fire is the reason for the rule on insulation. After all, several differently insulated #14 wires with the same load will get just as hot regardless of the kind of wire insulation involved. And, a little digging through the NEC will yield some rather interesting allowable ampacity values for a given wire size depending on the type of insulation. Old BX is a far worse culprit for starting fires because insulation failure can lead to the sheath carrying current - one reason the first thing I do in a home that has BX is pop the attic access and observe in the dark to see if there's a glow from the stuff.

    What is very suspect is that trapping the heat around the wire, which was designed to have free air circulating around it, will contribute to more and faster deterioration of the insulation on the wire. And, the insulation hasn't proven to be a stable long lasting type anyway.

    There are other issues too, like tripping being much more likely due to the stuff being elevated above the ceiling joists and not being able to see it.


  19. #19
    Ron Pfister's Avatar
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    Smile Re: Knob and Tube

    Knob and Tube is only used with 60 Amp service, If you read the first to lines to Knob and Tube to Oregon Standards if live it must be 3 inches away.

    Reading comprehension is required.

    Also there is no code allowing Knob and Tube wiring above 60 Amps.

    100 Amp upgrades must and always disconnect Knob and Tube wiring.

    200 Amp upgrades must remove knob and tube from service area.

    HUD, VA and All Government agencies will not allow Knob and Tube above 60 Amp.

    Here in Kansas there are a lot of Electricians that are hacks and will junction the 2 together hiding in junction box that the K&T can not be seen by the Inspector.

    If you do not mention the extreme fire hazard to K&T you will be allowing your self to be sued. It is extremely hazardous to the home, the older the more dried wood there is to burn.

    No wiring is allowed in any duct work and the HVAC that upgraded is a moron, he knew better than that.

    In Construction for 27+ years and there is no code that can override common sense electrical safety. The CDC even writes about the unsafe practices.

    Also Aluminun wiring is a Fire Practice Electrical hazard in waiting.

    All this Items should always be mentioned in your inspections to prevent you from a lawsuit for not mentioning them. I always Red Flag these Items you never know who or whom will sue you.

    Government agencies are actively taking action against inspectors who do not mention these Items.

    Sorry about preaching, have had the Engineers argue this and I always win.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    Reading comprehension is required.
    Wow... great first post... welcome to the board.

    As important as comprehension is.... reading "completion" is equally important. Read the entire thing and you'll see where it's allowed to be in contact. Not that I'm in anyway endorsing it... just pointing out what it says

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    Government agencies are actively taking action against inspectors who do not mention these Items.
    Can you please cite a source or instance?


    And.... while we're critiquing reading and writing... it's TWO not TO in your first sentence. And YOUR SELF is one word.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Stephens View Post
    .
    Being Allowed Doesn't Make It Less Of a Fire Hazard.
    .
    Especially with the paper facing of the insulation laying on the knob and tube!

    (See post #10 above, just in case someone reading over these threads misses it.)

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Knob and Tube

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Pfister View Post
    ]Also there is no code allowing Knob and Tube wiring above 60 Amps.

    100 Amp upgrades must and always disconnect Knob and Tube wiring.

    200 Amp upgrades must remove knob and tube from service area.
    Would you cite those codes?

    Thank you.

    Sorry about preaching, have had the Engineers argue this and I always win.
    I'll be waiting for your code section citation.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  23. #23

    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    Originally Posted by Ron Pfister
    ]Also there is no code allowing Knob and Tube wiring above 60 Amps.


    My reading comprehension is typically fair to middlin, so maybe I missed something. Will you post the code disallowing knob and tube wiring in homes with over a 60 amp service. Hint: You won't find it.


  24. #24

    Default Re: Knob and Tube Splice

    No wiring is allowed in any duct work and the HVAC that upgraded is a moron, he knew better than that.
    Code cite please.


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