Thread: Forwarding question from client...

Doing this from a handheld so I can't see the pix. Client (on his OWN home inspection, not ours today) got hit with this from the other side:

"The meter for the electric appears to be undersized. The meter box is 60 amp box, but the service is 100 amp. During repairs to the electric mast, an electrician, or the power company, should investigate and make repairs."

I cant see enough detail on my screen to make the call, can anyone see this?

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Here is the spec sheet for the meter (type AB1). It gives the dimmensions with a drawing on the top of the second page, right corner. Perhaps that will aid you in determining scale the size of the meter socket box.

I can't make out the first of two photos what is shadow and what is not (when I blow up get distortion, wavy lines). Got this based on your second posting photo.

Oops, forgot link specifications Elster AB1 kWh Meter 1-Phase: http://www.byramlabs.com/pdf/elster/...ta_Sheet_1.pdf

Here's the manual: http://www.byramlabs.com/manuals/els...cal_Manual.pdf

How did they determine the service to be rated at 100amp? If the smallest component only supports 60amp then the service is 60amp.

For instance, you can have a panel rated for up to 100amps but a service entrance cable and main shutoff that is only rated for 60amp. In this case, even though the panel can handle up to 100amp, the service would be rated at 60amp.

BTW, where is the main disconnect and what size is it? What size is the service entrance cable?

The meter has nothing to do with the service size. The meter could be a inductive type meter.

I'm not understanding the question really. AMP size is determined by the service feed coming from the pole (wire size). I'm not sure the guy who wrote that really knows what he is saying. Sounds like a speculative CYA type. My guess is the writer looked at the equipment and read markings on the meter and assumed there was a mismatch. It's obviously an old style socket and an old pushmatic panel. Ratings listed on the meter are not an accurate way to gauge amp size. It's old, it's funky, I'd tell the client to consider replacement at some point. As far as the mismatch, I can't tell from what i see.

The size of the service here is limited by:
1) The size of the service conductors, in the mast and from meter to panel
2) The AMP rating of the meter housing. You need to see the label inside or the make and model to sort that out.
3) The rating of the panel.

The NEC has increased wire bending room requirements now from what used to be allowed. The meter can here could possibly be rated up to 125 AMPs - it depends. The wire in the picture looks to me like it is larger than #4, suggesting 125 AMPs.

Absent anything definite, this info and a buck+ tax gets you a cup of bad Joe at McBurgers

Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh

The meter can here could possibly be rated up to 125 AMPs - it depends. The wire in the picture looks to me like it is larger than #4, suggesting 125 AMPs.

I agree, that meter can or base is not the small round 60 Amp unit, so certainly would be adequate for 100 Amps. It's a bogus call from that inspector.

Originally Posted by Ross Neag

Doing this from a handheld so I can't see the pix. Client (on his OWN home inspection, not ours today) got hit with this from the other side:

"The meter for the electric appears to be undersized. The meter box is 60 amp box, but the service is 100 amp. During repairs to the electric mast, an electrician, or the power company, should investigate and make repairs."

I cant see enough detail on my screen to make the call, can anyone see this?

Hi Ross,

The meter is good for a 200 amp service.

The old square meter enclosure shown in this photo are usually 100 amp rated.

The conduit mast is at least 1-1/4" and maybe 1-1/2". Also, typical with 100 amp services in our area.

Everything about this service says 100 amp.

I'm curious what about the "meter" gave this inspector a clue that this service is undersized. It doesn't make any sense.

Corey

Thanks to all...RN

It's not the meter, so much as the meter base - and you have to open them to see the amp rating of the base.

Even then, it's mainly a question of the space inside for wire bending. Note that the space requirements were increased sometime in the 70's. At least, UL changed their rules - which isn't as serious as it sounds. UL has a much weaker voice in meter bases than it has in panels, and there are a lot out there that are not UL listed. It's one of those areas where the power companies have had the final say.

As for the client ... he wants to write his own reports, let hm post his own questions. You need not be a member to post here.

Maybe the people had added on to the house but had not upgraded the service, and that may be the reason for saying it was undersized? just a thought. But on another note, yes whatever the smallest componant in the service is, then that is going to be the max of the service. no questions about that.

As John asked, where is the main disconnect for that panel? Thanks.

Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr

How did they determine the service to be rated at 100amp? If the smallest component only supports 60amp then the service is 60amp.

For instance, you can have a panel rated for up to 100amps but a service entrance cable and main shutoff that is only rated for 60amp. In this case, even though the panel can handle up to 100amp, the service would be rated at 60amp.

BTW, where is the main disconnect and what size is it? What size is the service entrance cable?

Originally Posted by Brian Robertson

As John asked, where is the main disconnect for that panel? Thanks.

Split bus panels with fewer than six disconnects (240v) doesn't need one main disconnect. Ex. Pushmatic both mains @ top. No main disconnect, fewer than 6 (3 or just 2 active/wired? can't make out beyond the mini view) breakers includes a Lower "main" @ 40 or 60 amps for the 110/120 circuits 60 amps doesn't make the main panel, service or meter limited to 40 or 60 amps. 100 amp service split bus.

Get nervous with old pushmatics with reds (MWBCs?) on both sides (wiring errors?) when can't see bus pattern leafs or diagram - still can't make out original two posted photos when blown up - getting distortion know there's a diagram on the R of the panel wire trough but can only view in thumbnail must be my winter computer.

BR:

Guess you forgot when I told you about split bus panels back last March (about the middle of the post - in odd or occasional things you might encounter in older installations):
http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...html#post75748

Here is an older ITE Pushmatic - a late 50s or early 60s 100 amp version/answer to the older days of 60 amp "range & a Main" (40s-50s) service. In this panel not a range but instead 30 amp AC over a "lighting & appliance" 60 amp "main" which is in series with the 110/120 breakers below. Have to check Ontario if there is a present restriction for new install or 40% limit on the Lighting & Appliance "main".

Not ideal example but gets the point across (and you can blow up resolution to see the label diagram).

Looks to me the original poster's photos (again for whatever reason I can only "see" them in the thumbnail view without distortion) is a similar panel except there might be two (can't see well but think just one) 240 breaker positions above the lighting and appliance main of unknown size over the Lighting and appliance main of unknown size. (pushmatics have to look at the side edge top to see the marking).

I'm guessing the OP saw the "main" marking on the lower 240 breaker, checked the side marking, saw 60 amps and didn't know it was a split bus panel and was confused by the presence of the 240 breaker/s above it.

Good luck with your self-taught studies.

"Good luck with your self taught studies". I get it, that's sarcasm, right H.G.? I would just as soon you didn't try to help at all to be honest with you.

Originally Posted by Brian Robertson

"Good luck with your self taught studies". I get it, that's sarcasm, right H.G.? I would just as soon you didn't try to help at all to be honest with you.

Not at all, it was sincere, but as usual you twist it into somthing ugly, apparently embarased at your continued failure to retain information, identify what is in a photo, or read and comprehend what information has already been shared in a topic thread. You claimed in the previously linked topic thread (March '09) that you were teaching yourself, and studying 3-4 hours every day, and tagging along on some practice inspections (this after claiming to be a new inspector on/around Nov '08) IIRC at some point you indicated your primary occupation was that of a firefighter. In the last year this was the forth or fifth time I've seen you ask where the main was on a split bus panel (you've deleted some in a Richard Pultar fashion after its been pointed out to you). Back then you were claiming the Canadian Electrical Code was based on NFPA 70, etc. well...that post string speaks for itself. You're apparently still trying to learn some of the basics. The studying, knowledge retention/application...not so sure how that's been going.

I extended good luck wishes and encouraged continued study.

Yes well, there I go again, looking like an idiot. My apologies for interpreting your, fairly ambiguous comment, the wrong way. That's what I get for assuming. And I should have kept my mouth shut about the electrical codes of the 2 different countries, way back when. I'm not really looking for a scrap here, I guess I was trying to get across that I follow this board because I find it helpful I was making assumptions though and shame on me. And you don't need to be concerned about the poor folk who end up with me as there inspector. I've been studying this for a few years now and will for a few more yet before I set myself loose, (I have full-time employment and hope to retire with this in a few years, I do take courses. We are not required by law to follow a certain path to certification up here, yet. But who knows, the more I learn the more realize I don't know, as they say. Either way, I am wasting peoples time now so that's enough for me.

Originally Posted by Brian Robertson

Yes well, there I go again, looking like an idiot. My apologies for interpreting your, fairly ambiguous comment, the wrong way. That's what I get for assuming. And I should have kept my mouth shut about the electrical codes of the 2 different countries, way back when. I'm not really looking for a scrap here, I guess I was trying to get across that I follow this board because I find it helpful I was making assumptions though and shame on me. And you don't need to be concerned about the poor folk who end up with me as there inspector. I've been studying this for a few years now and will for a few more yet before I set myself loose, (I have full-time employment and hope to retire with this in a few years, I do take courses. We are not required by law to follow a certain path to certification up here, yet. But who knows, the more I learn the more realize I don't know, as they say. Either way, I am wasting peoples time now so that's enough for me.

Thought the use of the smiley with the sunglasses indicated "its cool", used it originally to indicate the comment was sincere and took the time to explain about the split bus L & A in series prior to the comment for your benefit. Sorry you felt it was ambiguous in sincerity or in some way sarcastic when intitally offered to you, perhaps my understanding of the meaning of that smiley is incorrect , could be. Appreciate the comeback. No sweat, I've probably forgotten & forgiven more than I know. The advantages of inevitable aging: short-term memory "issues". Thank goodness for indexes and "search", doesn't help much when the word/name is "on the tip of my tongue" but escapes the brain for a moment (or longer).