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  1. #1
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    Default Is this bonding the sub?

    Photos of today's inspection. Circa 2005 home. The downstream panel had an extra wire attaching the grounding conductors to the grounded and grounding wires of the main panel.

    In the first picture you can see the white wire attached to the grounding conductors.

    In the second picture, the same white wire attaches to the buss at the top which has grounded and grounding wires (white and bare) (sorry for the blurry shot)

    In this configuration, is the downstream panel bonded to the first one? It appears to me that it is.

    Thanks in advance,
    Bruce

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    The downstream panel had an extra wire attaching the grounding conductors to the grounded and grounding wires of the main panel.
    Clarification needed.... by saying extra white wire are you saying that the feeder from the service equipment has a white neutral and a white egc ran to the downstream panelboard? Is the panelboard in the same structure with the SE?

    I'm guessing and you need to correct me if I am wrong but the panelboard (sub) is fed by a four wire feeder from the SE but they have used a white insulated equipment grounding conductor along with a white neutral. The white neutral of the feeder is connected to the unbonded neutral bar and the white egc is connected to the isolated grounding bar in the down stream panelboard. Is that a correct understanding?

    If the white wire is the feeder egc and is 6 awg or smaller then it is not correct. A full picture of the down stream panel board would help. It is doubtful that an electrician did this installation. As far as bonding is concerned we would need to see the entire panelboard to verify that the neutral bonding means has not been installed (if a 4 wire feeder) and to make sure the white wire is not the neutral of the feeder if a 3 wire feeder was installed.

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 12-23-2009 at 05:51 PM. Reason: Redundancy

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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Clarification needed.... by saying extra white wire are you saying that the feeder from the service equipment has a white neutral and a white egc ran to the downstream panelboard?

    I'm guessing and you need to correct me if I am wrong but the panelboard (sub) is fed by a four wire feeder from the SE but they have used a white insulated equipment grounding conductor along with a white neutral. The white neutral of the feeder is connected to the unbonded neutral bar and the white egc is connected to the isolated grounding bar in the down stream panelboard. Is that a correct understanding?
    It (the extra white wire) was not a feeder. Nor was it an equipment grounding conductor (I don't believe). It merely connected a buss bar from the main panelboard to the buss bar of the sub cabinet containing the ground wires. In my mind, I don't want to connect neutrals and grounds in the sub. In this configuration, they are connected; however, the connection stretches across two panels. Clear as mud?

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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Bruce,

    The 2nd photo shows some grounding and grounded conductors in the same terminals, which is not allowed.

    Without being there and being able to see exactly what was going on, I would suspect the white wire you are asking about was a grounded (neutral) connection between the two panels, and that it should not be connect to ground at the remote panel, and if for grounding the conductor should be green, not white.

    Also, in the 2nd photo, the conductor looks to have been bent back over itself, effectively making that single conductor multiple tapped as it is improperly installed in the terminal. The terminal may be ... or may not be ... rated for that small of a conductor.

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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Bruce,

    The 2nd photo shows some grounding and grounded conductors in the same terminals, which is not allowed.
    Agreed

    Without being there and being able to see exactly what was going on, I would suspect the white wire you are asking about was a grounded (neutral) connection between the two panels, and that it should not be connect to ground at the remote panel, and if for grounding the conductor should be green, not white.
    The downstream panel already had a grounded connection (not photographed --sorry). The grounded conductors were in their own buss and separate from the grounding conductors. I was not expecting the extra 6g conductor connecting the grounding conductors of the downstream panel to the grounded conductors of the main panel.

    Also, in the 2nd photo, the conductor looks to have been bent back over itself, effectively making that single conductor multiple tapped as it is improperly installed in the terminal. The terminal may be ... or may not be ... rated for that small of a conductor.
    It was bent back on itself, which I question. I didn't consider it multiple-tapped, but I see what you're saying.
    my answers in blue

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Jb

    The first picture is the grounding bar in the downstream panel and the second picture is the service panel correct ?

    If both are in the same dwelling then that extra white is your feeder egc. You say the downstream panelboard has a grounded conductor connection to the neutral bar. The neutral bar has only neutral conductors and is not bonded to the case ... with the branch circuit equipment grounds connected down where the extra white wire is connected on the grounding bar.. that is telling me the panel has a four wire feeder and the extra white is being used as your feeder equipment grounding conductor.

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 02-11-2010 at 09:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Jb

    The first picture is the grounding bar in the downstream panel and the second picture is the main panel correct ?

    If both are in the same dwelling then that extra white is your egc. You say the downstream panelboard has a grounded conductor connection to the neutral bar. The neutral bar has only neutral conductors and is not bonded to the case ... with the branch circuit equipment grounds connected down where the extra white wire is connected on the grounding bar.. that is telling me the panel has a four wire feeder and the extra white is your feeder equipment grounding conductor.
    Sorry for the lack of photos.

    The cabinets are next to each other.

    The two ungrounded feeders are connected to the lugs at the top of the downstream panel.

    There is a white grounded feeder in the downstream panel that is connected to the left buss bar in the main panel. Photo attached.

    There is a fourth wire (white) connecting the grounding conductors of the downstream panel to the right buss bar of the main panel. That main panel bar has grounded and grounding conductors on it. (photo in first post)

    Sorry for the corn-fusion

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Is this what you have ?

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    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 12-23-2009 at 07:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Wow, nice drawing.

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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Is this what you have ?
    Yes, I believe so

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Sorry I had to step out for hot wings and a beer. I wasn't able to get back till late.

    Ok I'll do my best to explain... a panel board downstream from the service equipment that is in the same dwelling (in your case next to the SE ) is required to have a 4 wire feeder (H-H-N-Ground). This is so the sub panel (if you want to call it that) can have neutral and ground electrically separated at the sub panel ...ie..neutral and ground not bonded. But you probably know all that.

    At the main panel (service equipment) neutral and ground are always bonded and bonded to the metal enclosure. If you look right behind the extra white wire in your second picture of your first post you can see the green main bonding jumper to the metal case. The neutral bar on the left of your main panel is also bonded to the neutral bar on the right by the metal bar across the top of your main breaker... this is typical of square d panels. Neutrals and grounds are allowed to be terminated on these terminal bars in the main panel..except for a few exceptions this is the only place you do this.

    The problem with your situation is not the 4th extra wire but the fact that it is white and has not been identified as an equipment ground .. or is wrong altogether due to its size. Equipment grounds smaller than 4 awg must be bare, green, or green with a yellow stripe(s). Wires 4 awg and larger are allowed to be remarked. However, ..White.. insulation on a feeder conductor for 120/240 volt panels is the feeder neutral or the grounded conductor. IMO since the panels are so close together I would request that the 4th white wire be replaced with a same size green insulated wire. This will remove any confusion on the purpose of that wire. It could also be remarked with an inspectors blessing. I'd opt for replacement.


    Electrically the bonding of the two panels is fine, assuming that the bonding means has not been installed in the neutral bar of the sub-panel ....but the white wire being used as the equipment ground of the feeder is incorrect as is.

    What you actually have is this drawing below only a white insulated wire is being used in place of the green wire in my drawing. And you have more than one neutral bar in the main panel but just look at them as one bar since they are bonded together.

    The only other consideration is if the electrician used metal conduit (like EMT) between the main and the sub-panel. If he did and it is installed correctly then it can serve as the equipment ground of the feeder. In this case the extra white wire (wrong as it is) is redundant and not necessary and should be removed.

    The sub panel also has more than one neutral per termination screw. This is not allowed 2008 NEC 408.41.

    I agree .. nicely wired sub panel but has a few technical errors.

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    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 12-24-2009 at 02:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Bruce

    I'd like to ask if the feeder and your 'extra white wire' are all installed in a conduit between panels? That ' extra' white wire isn't ran exposed between panels is it? An example would be 6-3 nm for the feeder and the white ran along the outside of the nm.

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 12-24-2009 at 01:40 PM. Reason: added more clarification

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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    This is so the sub panel (if you want to call it that)
    It's best to not call it a sub panel unless it is a panel panel in a sub.

    Neutrals and grounds are allowed to be terminated on these terminal bars in the main panel..
    Likewise, it is best to refer to that as "service equipment" as there is no difference in the way a "main" or "sub" panel is wired, should one choose to use those undefined and non-conforming terms.

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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Thanks Jerry

    I'm sorta struggling as to the right approach in terminology here. The NEC does not use the term sub panel but we all know what it means. However I do think some difference must be noted between the SE and the downstream panelboard amd correct terminology is very important to avoid confusion.. So are you asking that SE be used for the panel where first means of service disconnect is located and panelboard used for any downstream panels from the SE ?


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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    So are you asking that SE be used for the panel where first means of service disconnect is located and panelboard used for any downstream panels from the SE ?
    The first service disconnecting means *is* the service equipment, and it may or may not include a panel. Either way, it remains "service equipment".

    The panelboard located inside the service equipment is also service equipment, but some refer to that panel as the "service panel" or "service equipment panel" which at least designates that the panel is part of the service equipment.

    The next (and any other) panel downstream from the service equipment panel is simply either a panel, or some call it a "remote" panel to designate that it is remote from the service equipment, or that it is a "distribution" panel.

    One could have an exterior service equipment disconnect only (no panel) which feeds an interior panelboard, which is thus the "main panel" (and is in fact the only panel). Thus, a "main" panel or a "sub" panel are really wired exactly the same - the neutral is isolated from ground.

    The neutral is only bonded to ground at the service equipment, and if there happens to be a panel inside the service equipment, the neutral is still bonded to ground "at the service equipment" which happens to contain a panel ... or "service panel"/"service equipment panel" if one so chooses.

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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Ok Jerry

    I understand what your saying just wanted to be clear how you guys want the terminology. I'm on the same page now....LOL...


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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    My questions/responses in blue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Sorry I had to step out for hot wings and a beer. I wasn't able to get back till late.

    Ok I'll do my best to explain... a panel board downstream from the service equipment that is in the same dwelling (in your case next to the SE ) is required to have a 4 wire feeder (H-H-N-Ground). This is so the sub panel (if you want to call it that) can have neutral and ground electrically separated at the sub panel ...ie..neutral and ground not bonded. But you probably know all that.

    Yes, which is why I am confused. Though the ground is separate from the neutral in the subpanel, the ground of the sub is not separate from the neutral in the mail panel. So is this not the same thing?

    At the main panel (service equipment) neutral and ground are always bonded and bonded to the metal enclosure. If you look right behind the extra white wire in your second picture of your first post you can see the green main bonding jumper to the metal case. The neutral bar on the left of your main panel is also bonded to the neutral bar on the right by the metal bar across the top of your main breaker... this is typical of square d panels. Neutrals and grounds are allowed to be terminated on these terminal bars in the main panel..except for a few exceptions this is the only place you do this.

    The problem with your situation is not the 4th extra wire but the fact that it is white and has not been identified as an equipment ground .. or is wrong altogether due to its size. Equipment grounds smaller than 4 awg must be bare, green, or green with a yellow stripe(s). Wires 4 awg and larger are allowed to be remarked. However, ..White.. insulation on a feeder conductor for 120/240 volt panels is the feeder neutral or the grounded conductor. IMO since the panels are so close together I would request that the 4th white wire be replaced with a same size green insulated wire. This will remove any confusion on the purpose of that wire. It could also be remarked with an inspectors blessing. I'd opt for replacement.


    Electrically the bonding of the two panels is fine, assuming that the bonding means has not been installed in the neutral bar of the sub-panel ....but the white wire being used as the equipment ground of the feeder is incorrect as is.

    Are you saying it is only incorrect b/c of the color?


    .


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  19. #19
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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Are you saying it is only incorrect b/c of the color?
    Yes ... it is not code compliant using white as a equipment grounding conductor. I do not think their are too many electrical inspectors that would allow it to stay or consider it to be remarked under your circumstances..... at the very minimum it must be remarked ....green ... and you would want it approved by ahj. White is a color used for the grounded conductor which is current carrying.

    Yes, which is why I am confused. Though the ground is separate from the neutral in the subpanel, the ground of the sub is not separate from the neutral in the mail panel. So is this not the same thing?

    NO but it is not easy to explain in short form. If you give me a day or two (Christmas ya know) I'll make some diagrams to help you understand and post them here.

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 12-25-2009 at 02:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Ok I'll do my best to explain... a panel board downstream from the service equipment that is in the same dwelling (in your case next to the SE ) is required to have a 4 wire feeder (H-H-N-Ground). This is so the sub panel (if you want to call it that) can have neutral and ground electrically separated at the sub panel ...ie..neutral and ground not bonded. But you probably know all that.
    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    Yes, which is why I am confused. Though the ground is separate from the neutral in the subpanel, the ground of the sub is not separate from the neutral in the mail panel. So is this not the same thing?
    Bruce,

    It would be best if you left your sub out there in the water, besides, bonding it with a wire will really curtail how far you can take it out anyway.

    What Roger has shown in his drawing, and what you show in your photo, is that at the ... SERVICE EQUIPMENT ... the neutrals are bonded to the groundING conductor, which is required. Additionally, what Roger has shown in his drawing, and what you show in your photo, is that the ... panel ... ("remote" panel or "distribution" panel if you must add some other term to "panel", albeit better if you just left it as "panel", which is short for "panelboard") ... is that the neutral is no allowed to be bonded to ground at the panel or any other places downstream from the service equipment.

    By bonding the neutral to ground at a down stream ANYTHING, including panel, you have now given the neutral current TWO separate paths to take back to the service equipment, one path which the neutral current is intended and desired to go and one path which is not intended nor desired to have the neutral current go - a path which could lead to electrical shocks, electrocution, fires, and other 'not real good things'.

    Regarding the white wire being used for a groundING wire, as Roger said, that should be either bare or green, not white - provided that the white wire is indeed being used as a groundING conductor (the equipment grounding conductor between the panels).

    With the two panels being side-by-side, or at least very close together by your description, that white conductor should simply be replaced with a properly sized green (or bare) conductor. If separate conductors were run from one panel to the next as the feeder, I would recommend replacing the white with a green, however, if a cable such as NM cable is run from panel to panel, the ground should already be in that cable so I would recommend using it, otherwise I would recommend replacing the feeder conductor cable between the two panels with a cable which has its grounding conductor within the cable.

    After all, the two panels are close together, making the cost of properly correcting this installation quite reasonable. It is not like the feeder cable is wrong, is 100 feet long, and is running through inaccessible places stapled in place where it cannot reasonably and feasibly be replaced.

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  21. #21
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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Here's one I already have drawn that I can illustrate a couple important aspects about bonding.

    First is improper bonding. Which is primarily what the diagram is showing.

    What is not so obvious is where the current is going. All current be it system current or ground fault current seeks the source .... source being the utility transformer in the situation of a dwelling. It does not seek earth if given a low impedance path to the transformer.

    Notice at the service panel there is only one low impedance/resistance path back to the transformer ... the service neutral. We must bond neutral and ground at the service panel so that both neutral and ground fault current (if any) can utilize the service neutral to return to the source. We do not want neutral current on the equipment ground any where load side of the service equipment. The equipment ground is not a system current carrying wire. It only carries current in the event of a ground fault so that your circuit breaker will open.

    The fact that you have neutral and ground bonded together at the service panel does not mean current is going to back flow to the panelboard .... that isn't the source and does not complete a circuit with the source.

    Neutral (grounded conductor) completes the circuit for 120 volt loads in 3 wire 120/240 volt systems.

    Egc and bonded metal make up the 'effective low impedance fault path" and completes the fault circuit with the transformer. You must have this in order for your breakers to open on fault.

    The common link for the two is the service neutral ...at the service equipment ... the only place where we can get both neutral and equipment ground bonded together so they can complete the circuit to the transformer using the service neutral.

    So lets visualize a fault in your panelboard....a bare section of a hot conductor contacts the metal of a receptacle box on one of the branch circuits. Massive current flow transfers to the equipment ground wire bonded to the box and seeks the source. It wants the lowest impedance path it can use to get there. So it travels over the equipment ground to the ground bar in the panelboard.. then to the feeder equipment ground to get to the service equipment..once at the service equipment the only low impedance path available to the transformer is the service neutral. This same massive current is also flowing in the ungrounded conductor and passing thru your circuit breaker .... the breaker opens ... and the fault clears.

    Hope this helps a tad in your understanding of why the equipment ground from the panelboard must bond with the neutrals at the service equipment.

    Gotta go play Santa ... will add more later if you want....

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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    What is not so obvious is where the current is going.
    What is not shown is the current flow through the enclosure metal itself - the entire enclosure becomes a current carrying conductor.

    It wants the lowest impedance path it can use to get there.
    While the current prefers to take the lowest impedance path back to its source, IT WILL TAKE ALL available paths back to its source. It's just that *more* current will follow the lower impedance paths than will follow the higher impedance paths, but there will be unwanted and undesirable current flowing on all available paths back to its source.

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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    What is not shown is the current flow through the enclosure metal itself - the entire enclosure becomes a current carrying conductor.
    Very true but I didn't want to have red arrows all over my drawing... The drawing is very basic to the true overall picture of current flow and all paths that current takes to the source. My intention in this drawing was to show the parallel path that most current will take if the panelboard has neutral and ground bonded in a 4 wire feeder. However what you say is only true if the bonding means is installed in the neutral bar of the panelboard in the drawing. I'd like to have a dollar for every panel I've been in that was down stream from the SE that is exactly like the drawing only the bonding means was not installed and no isolated ground bar.. Most were all homeowner installed and I believe that is what the home inspection process is all about to locate and find these type errors.

    While the current prefers to take the lowest impedance path back to its source, IT WILL TAKE ALL available paths back to its source. It's just that *more* current will follow the lower impedance paths than will follow the higher impedance paths, but there will be unwanted and undesirable current flowing on all available paths back to its source.
    Yes it will and does but like I said it is not an easy subject to explain in short form. There are several alternative paths of varying impedance that neutral current does take to return to the transformer.... The fault current that opens a breaker is the cumulative current on all paths ...but .. without the low impedance path the breaker is not likely to open.

    I have some more drawings that show what your talking about that shows the insignificant current on the metal water pipes using the neighbors neutral to return to the source along with the gec to the supplemental electrodes and using the earth to get to the transformer ground rod then to the center tap of the transformer..

    I used the term insignificant very loosely as this is not always the case....

    If Bruce wants I'll post up some more drawings on this general subject of bonding that can be commented on and by the time we are all finished we likely will all learn something.

    Jerry ..

    I'm betting the high odds that it will be a rare day that I'm going to be able completely satisfy you with my explanations or drawings....

    BTW..where is Ormond, Beach ? Gulf side or Atlantic ?



    Merry Christmas ALL

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 12-25-2009 at 02:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Jerry ..

    I'm betting the high odds that it will be a rare day that I'm going to be able completely satisfy you with my explanations or drawings....
    Roger,

    Not pointing that information out to you, you already know it, I was simply pointing that information out to all as not all here know that (as one example) the enclosures will be carrying current in those conditions.

    In a conduit system, that current would be flowing through each conduit in varying amounts, which could lead to arcing and tracking at the conduit couplings, fittings, adapters to enclosures, and, if there is a poor connection between EMT-to-coupling-to-EMT that crawling through an attic over the conduit COULD lead to a very shocking experience.

    BTW..where is Ormond, Beach ? Gulf side or Atlantic ?
    Atlantic side, right next to Daytona Beach.

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  25. #25
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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Roger,

    Not pointing that information out to you, you already know it, I was simply pointing that information out to all as not all here know that (as one example) the enclosures will be carrying current in those conditions.

    In a conduit system, that current would be flowing through each conduit in varying amounts, which could lead to arcing and tracking at the conduit couplings, fittings, adapters to enclosures, and, if there is a poor connection between EMT-to-coupling-to-EMT that crawling through an attic over the conduit COULD lead to a very shocking experience.



    Atlantic side, right next to Daytona Beach.
    Sorry Jerry I did not mean to imply you were picking on me. I knew exactly that you were just adding information. MY poke at humor was only to say that I understand that you are a person of detail and I wasn't offended. I apologize if I made you feel that you were not giving me any credit for knowing what you were saying that was not my intention at all.


    Ok I see you are just north of Daytona. We just received a blizzard here in Kansas, we have 3 and 4 foot drifts this morning but we certainly have a white Christmas...


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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    By bonding the neutral to ground at a down stream ANYTHING, including panel, you have now given the neutral current TWO separate paths to take back to the service equipment, one path which the neutral current is intended and desired to go and one path which is not intended nor desired to have the neutral current go - a path which could lead to electrical shocks, electrocution, fires, and other 'not real good things'.

    Yes, I called Paul Abernathy a few years back to get a grasp of this. I do understand about the two separate paths.


    Regarding the white wire being used for a groundING wire, as Roger said, that should be either bare or green, not white - provided that the white wire is indeed being used as a groundING conductor (the equipment grounding conductor between the panels).

    I know that the color is not proper. I guess that when I opened that panel and unexpectedly saw that white wire, my brain went awry. I traced it back into the first panel and saw it connected to the neutral and decided it was then bonded improperly.
    I sent a corrected report to the client and removed the bonded "sub" panel portion.

    Many thanks to Jerry and Roger for their explanation in this.

    PS I began using the proper terms, but it's so much easier to say subpanel and white wires, etc...

    Bruce Thompson, Lic. #9199
    www.TylerHomeInspector.com
    Home Inspections in the Tyler and East Texas area

  27. #27
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
    Roger Frazee Guest

    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Bruce

    I'm glad that I was able in some way to help you with this issue. I have made some changes from the first drawing to show very basically why that panel board is bonded correctly but just using the wrong color of egc in the feeder. I'll post it so you can look at it. Basically other than the color of the egc you have independent paths for fault and neutral current as you want. Notice how both end up at the service equipment and use the service neutral. If we didn't bond the egc to the grounded conductor at the service equipment fault current would try to use the grounding electrode conductors to find a way thru earth or to your neighbors neutral over the water pipes (if metal) to get to the transformer...that path is almost always too high of impedance to allow enough current flow to open the circuit breaker.

    One thing before I really confuse you ...it is possible for grounding electrode conductors to have potentially lethal current on them so treat them carefully during inspections. A poor connection at the service equipment with the service neutral can place a lot of neutral current on the GES so be aware of this. Also if a buried service lateral of a neighboring dwelling has a deteriorating neutral it can put neutral current by using the earth as a path to the grounding electrode system of an adjacent dwelling that can hurt you. So heads up... here is the drawing...I chose purple for the neutral current.... Always keep in your head what Jerry said early on...current will take 'all paths' available to it low impedance and high just in different proportions to get to the transformer..


    I know what you mean about sub-panel terminology if you talk like we do here in the field no one understands you.....

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    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 12-25-2009 at 09:27 PM.

  28. #28
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Thanks again.

    What are you using to make those drawings?

    Bruce Thompson, Lic. #9199
    www.TylerHomeInspector.com
    Home Inspections in the Tyler and East Texas area

  29. #29
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
    Roger Frazee Guest

    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by JB Thompson View Post
    Thanks again.

    What are you using to make those drawings?
    I have become an expert with ' Paint ' ......


  30. #30
    Bob Winchester's Avatar
    Bob Winchester Guest

    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Notice in the picture on the right the bonding screw is installed. If this is the sub panel it is a code violation. The jumper between the neutral buss in this panel and the grounding buss is a duplication of this code violation. Additionally the grounds and neutrals in the same lugs are code violations. Square D lists the wire sizes approved for the different lugs on the panel label. If a conductor is too small for a lug and is bent over it is a code violation of the listing and labeling for the panel.
    Bottom line is the bonding screw is installed. Violation.


  31. #31
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
    Roger Frazee Guest

    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Winchester View Post
    Notice in the picture on the right the bonding screw is installed. If this is the sub panel it is a code violation. The jumper between the neutral buss in this panel and the grounding buss is a duplication of this code violation. Additionally the grounds and neutrals in the same lugs are code violations. Square D lists the wire sizes approved for the different lugs on the panel label. If a conductor is too small for a lug and is bent over it is a code violation of the listing and labeling for the panel.
    Bottom line is the bonding screw is installed. Violation.
    Bob

    The photo on the right, in post 1, is the service equipment. The photo on the left is the downstream panelboard


  32. #32
    Join Date
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    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
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    26,252

    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Winchester View Post
    If this is the sub panel it is a code violation.
    Being as that panel is not in a sub, it simply cannot be a "sub panel", it can either be "service equipment" or "other than" "service equipment", i.e., simply a panel, a distribution panel, a panelboard, or some even designate it descriptively as a remote panel.

    In the case of the photos, it is "service equipment". The original posters use of the other undefined term of "main panel" may have thrown you off as "main panel" does not designate that it is the "service equipment" - only "service equipment" designates it clearly as being "service equipment".

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  33. #33
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
    Stacey Van Houtan Guest

    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Just for the record - The entire free world and most of the rest of the world use the term SUB-PANEL

    Many AHJ advertise code updates and trainining seminars using the word SUB_PANEL

    We as home inspectors need to be able to tell our clients so they can understand, and others they may ask for advice or contractors that they may speak to will also understand what we mean.

    Using the term SUB-PANEL will convey this message.

    I do understand the PECKPERPESTICVE on Service Equip. etc.

    But the real world could care less, and 75 years of habit is not likley to change .

    And That MY subsquient view untill you show me different


  34. #34
    Stacey Van Houtan's Avatar
    Stacey Van Houtan Guest

    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    Oh, I forgot to add the first Approved Kansas HI class will start next week. As am teaching the Elec. part, I will use the term SUB-PANEL


  35. #35
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
    Roger Frazee Guest

    Default Re: Is this bonding the sub?

    I swore to myself I wouldn't get into this but.....

    This post is a good example of the need to use the term "service equipment' this tells you mountains about a panelboard or enclosure. If JB had said the picture on the right is the service equipment and the picture on the left is the down stream panelboard... we just eliminate a hundred questions for clarification. This is also the thread where I was trying to "fit in" with terminolgy wanted on this board. If we assume that 'main panel' is the service equipment your going to lose that bet a good percentage of the time, especially if you don't see a main breaker in the 'main panel'. If someone posts here and says "sub-panel being fed from the main panel" your going to lose that bet a good percentage of the time only to find out the main panel is not the service equipment but just another subpanel using that terminolgy.

    If we know what the service equipment is whether it is in a panelboard or a remote single or multiple service disconnect enclosure we then know our point of reference for the configuration of the system. On a board or forum this saves a bunch of questions and makes a big difference in the accuracy of a reply.....because we are not assuming that the poster is giving accurate information.

    You also have to be aware that someone might tell you that the 'main panel' is the service equipment when you ask them for clarification only to find out they don't know what service equipment is to begin with and what they thought was turns out it wasn't.

    Anyway my point is ... making sure what the service equipment is will keep your foot out of your mouth or prevent a wasted and inacurrate post.

    Now in the field when talking to a home owner that is not electrically knowledgeable telling them they have a problem with a sub-panel likely just means to them your talking about that panel in the house that isn't the "main panel" and likely they haven't the foggest idea if the "main panel" is service equipment.

    So I concur with Stacey .. telling the homeowner the problem is in the sub-panel will make sense in their eyes whereas telling them the problem is in the panelboard with the service equipment or it's in the service equipment enclosure will only get you a blank stare ... or head scratching if they see it written that way in a report.

    That said accurate terminolgy in a report is important both to reflect your professionalism and to eliminate any questions by the professional trades person that comes to address the deficiency.


    Stacey

    I would reconsider. I would make note of the terminology but I would teach the idea of electrical system distribution for a dwellling by establishing the service equipment. Believe me someone in the class will not know what service equipment is or what makes a panel or enclosure service equipment. Once they know this then main panel,sub-panel,pony panel etc just becomes an electrical panel referenced to the service equipment. This will avoid a lot of mistakes in reports concerning grounding and bonding, 3 wire and 4 wire feeders etc in electrical panels found in dwelling inspections or anywhere else IMO.

    Stacey check your PM I have a link you might find useful for your classes.


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