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  1. #1
    Anthony Alderman's Avatar
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    Unhappy GFCI on a Gas range

    Ok guys I need help. 2009 new home. Gas range. Range power down stream of the counter top GFCI. If the GFCI is tripped and you try to turn on a burner raw gas comes out the burners because the ignites wont spark...... because no power!!! I called it out but the electrician said it's not code and will not change it. Am I all wet????

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Alderman View Post
    Ok guys I need help. 2009 new home. Gas range. Range power down stream of the counter top GFCI. If the GFCI is tripped and you try to turn on a burner raw gas comes out the burners because the ignites wont spark...... because no power!!! I called it out but the electrician said it's not code and will not change it. Am I all wet????
    It is wrong, code of not. My best guess is that the stove manufacturer requires the stove to be on a dedicated circuit, just for this reason. Also all appliances in the kitchen should not be on the same circuit as the counter top outlets. I'm pretty sure that is a code, I don't have my code reference with me to look it up.

    Scott Patterson, ACI
    Spring Hill, TN
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  3. #3
    Anthony Alderman's Avatar
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Thanks Scott
    I called the electrical Inspector but he was already gone for the day. There is no way in hell that can be right. I think I'll try to get my hands on the manf. spec's. it would be nice to have a trump card...

    Tony


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Scott, NEC 210.52(B)(2) exception 3 allows gas ranges, ovens or countertop mounted cooking units to be fed from the SABC.

    Last edited by Jim Port; 01-13-2010 at 05:20 PM. Reason: added additional appliances

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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    This came up a few weeks ago, and I'm pretty sure that the range is allowed to be part of the small appliance circuit. I was kind of surprised by it. If the manufacturer requires a dedicated circuit, you can pursue that angle if you want to. Why a gas range would need a dedicated circuit for the clock and ignitor is another question.

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Yes it is code, in the NEC.

    There should be two "dedicated" (to the countertop receptacles) for 20 amp small appliance branch circuits minimum supplying the countertops. No fixed in place larger appliances (for example if the microwave is mounted it cannot share one of those circuits - if it sits on the countertop and is not mounted it may, installed dishwasher connected to the plumbing supply is fixed in place so may not - a portable model which has no permanent plumbing connection - uses the faucet adapter and drains in the sink may, etc.; the cook top is technically fixed/set in place so it cannot) should be sharing those countertop small appliance circuits, no lighting, no power supply for cabinet lighting, no range hood, no exhaust fan). There is an exception that may feed a clock. I'd have to double check to see if there is an exception for a cook top but I don't recall that there is, but IF there is, then the electrician should have pigtailed the receptacles to protect only the face, not run power through and protect on the load side of the circuit.

    The cook top needs to be supplied by another circuit, since there is no safety I suspect the manufacturer's instructions specifically prohibit or strongly recommend AGAINST it being supplied by a GFCI; if the cooktop has a downdraft it likely also requires a dedicated circuit of its own.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 01-13-2010 at 04:38 PM.

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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    From November's post:

    - 210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
    - - (B) Small Appliances.
    - - - (2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
    - - - - Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
    - - - - Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    There's no prohibition against having the gas range on a SABC and no rule against having the gas range on a GFCI.

    It may seem like a bad idea to have the range on a GFCI but it's really no worse than having a breaker tripped and trying to light the range. A GFCI shouldn't be randomly tripping anyway.

    Personally, I'd like to see all kitchen receptacles required to be GFCI protected because people use extension cords for all sorts of nefarious purposes. I don't see an issue.


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Patterson View Post
    It is wrong, code of not.

    Scott,

    This is one of those items which was addressed in another thread ... it meets MINIMUM code but is "bad construction practice".

    Wrong? No.

    Stupid? Yep.

    But the code does not, cannot, regulate "stupidity".

    The easy way for the client to change this is to rewire the GFCI receptacles from feed-through to by-pass, adding GFCI receptacles until the gas range igniter circuit is isolated from the GFCI protection.

    Heck, in my opinion it is a good idea to have each GFCI protected receptacle be a GFCI receptacle and by-pass wired to that receptacle, and only that receptacle, trip off when the GFCI trips off. I did that in our kitchen when I remodeled the kitchen when we bought the house up here (same thing for our house in South Florida). So what if there are 10 GFCI receptacle devices in the kitchen? I also installed one at each receptacle in the master bathroom ... one to each end of the lavatory top ... and only 6 feet from each other.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Except a breaker can't be randomly triped by some kid playing with the "stuff" on the kitchen counter.


  11. #11
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    This is one of those items which was addressed in another thread ... it meets MINIMUM code but is "bad construction practice".

    Wrong? No.

    Stupid? Yep.

    But the code does not, cannot, regulate "stupidity".



    Thanks Jerry,


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    One would think the gas flow would be controlled via an electric valve - no power = no gas --> no problems.
    Seems simple huh?
    I haven't had a gas stove in many years so I am not versed in how they are designed now days.
    Just my thoughts


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    I was wondering that too Ken. Furnaces have thermisters that will not allow gas to flow if there is not enough heat to ignite the gas. You would think something similar would be on a stove.


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by ken horak View Post
    One would think the gas flow would be controlled via an electric valve - no power = no gas --> no problems.
    Seems simple huh?
    I haven't had a gas stove in many years so I am not versed in how they are designed now days.
    Just my thoughts
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    I was wondering that too Ken. Furnaces have thermisters that will not allow gas to flow if there is not enough heat to ignite the gas. You would think something similar would be on a stove.
    Same thing I was wondering about, but not having a gas stove ... I was trying to remember back to inspecting gas stoves and cooktops and I could not remember what happened or if I even tried it.

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  15. #15
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    If there is no standing pilot light then you don't have a thermocouple. With electronic ignite-rs the gas is only controlled by the knobs. I checked to make sure. no power then you get rotten egg smell and lots of it.


  16. #16
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    Exclamation Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    actually gas heaters that have pilotless(electronic) ignition have a thermopile that does not allow gas to flow unless a spark is available, manufacturers of higher end cooktops and ovens such as wolf and subzero are equipped with them, would be wise for all manufacturers to add these devices, they really are very inexpensive, and they make it a whole lot safer


  17. #17
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    AMEN!!!


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Some ranges and cooktops have them, some don't. That notwithstanding, I fail to see how having one on a GFCI that has tripped is so very different than turning the knob to the "high" position without first stopping at the "light" position?

    Let's assume a cooktop that doesn't have a thermopile. If the GFCI is tripped, there's no ignition spark (typically provided by a piezo-electric igniter). What do you do, leave it on? "Gee, honey, the cooktop isn't lighting and I smell this funny rotten egg smell. I'm just going to leave it on in hope that it ignites some day."

    While most inexpensive (<$2000) range cooktops don't have thermopiles, even the $400 ovens have them so we're only talking about a situation where someone is present at a cooktop and attempting to ignite a burner. If you turn on the gas and fail to care whether it ignites or not, you have just entered yourself into the Darwin Awards.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    I can't speak for all stove designs, but I just looked at one that did, in fact, allow gas to one burner if the power was off. The other four burners had the gas turned off if there was no power. Oggly enough, this was touted in the manual as a 'plus,' allowing the use of one burner during power outages. Maybe they have a point; only a few winters back we had this area go without power for weeks.

    I then looked at a gas stove with a pilot light. The stove had absolutely no protection, as a heart does, against gas flowing if there was no pilot light.

    The only situation I know of where the gas has to be re-set after a power outage is for commercial equipment, protected by an Ansul system, that has a pilot light.

    So the electrician is correct. There's nothing improper with the installation. Could it have been done better? I have yet to do any job where afterwards I did not find things I might have done differently.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    If there is an owners manual and it states that it be on a designated circuit, then that is the code. All appliances have to be installed to manufacturers specifications per code.


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Smith View Post
    If there is an owners manual and it states that it be on a designated circuit, then that is the code. All appliances have to be installed to manufacturers specifications per code.
    I have yet to find a gas-only range that requires a dedicated circuit. I have seen gas cooktops that require a hard wire circuit (no cord and plug connection) as well as built-in gas ovens requiring the same but don't recall seeing the word "dedicated" in there.

    I have seen the word "dedicated" when referencing electric cooktops, ovens, and ranges and dual-fuel appliances.

    Does 2008 NEC 210.52(B)(2) say anything about gas-fired ovens and ranges with a convection fan? (I don't have the electronic version and I've loaned out my dead-tree version. 2005 and 2002 don't mention convection ovens specifically)


  22. #22
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Comments:

    A change in the code section referenced above changing the work "lighting" to "illumination" would solve the problem of feeding from a small appliance circuit (not going to rehash all the comments).

    BUT ...
    Whether or not the gas fed appliance has an ignition source powered through a GFCI, when the power is out, the same situation occurs as when a GFCI is tripped. Consumer choice is/may be to install gas in situations where cooking, heating (gas and wood heating stoves), etc. is desired during power outages ... this is often a selling point for the appliance.

    So it would not be surprising to find no prohibition to supplying an electronic ignition source through a GFCI.

    As noted above ... may not be smart ...

    ... or it may be an assumption of "common" sense on the part of the user by the MFGs....

    Ed


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Hi, all &

    Geez - I just flip-on the hood fan whenever that happens & keep-on enjoying cookin' my eggs (no rotten egg smell at all) !

    Yes - could always be better, but this is a way to just not stress over it...

    * Anyone who takes me too seriously on this really needs help. *


    CHEERS !

    -Glenn Duxbury, CHI

  24. #24
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Same thing I was wondering about, but not having a gas stove ... I was trying to remember back to inspecting gas stoves and cooktops and I could not remember what happened or if I even tried it.
    I had to go check on my 4 year old May-Tag gas stove, No power, plenty of gas and the smell to go with it. Seems strange that they would not protect the stove with some kind of shut off and only rely on the client smelling the gas, might be too late by the time they smell the gas. The Darwin theory does make sense.

    Last edited by Scott Murdock; 01-15-2010 at 12:19 PM.

  25. #25
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    Cool Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Talked to city E. Inspector this morning this morning. He said "it's code , I cant stop it but wouldn't do it in my house, code but not good code"

    I said ok.....


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Ralph Smith View Post
    If there is an owners manual and it states that it be on a designated circuit, then that is the code. All appliances have to be installed to manufacturers specifications per code.

    But ... that does not answer or address the question - one could very well have a dedicated circuit to the gas cook top or range AND that circuit be GFCI protected, and nothing in the code prohibits that ... UNLESS the manufacturer's installation instructions SPECIFICALLY state no GFCI protection.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Alderman View Post
    Ok guys I need help. 2009 new home. Gas range. Range power down stream of the counter top GFCI. If the GFCI is tripped and you try to turn on a burner raw gas comes out the burners because the ignites wont spark...... because no power!!! I called it out but the electrician said it's not code and will not change it. Am I all wet????
    No, but the electrician is.

    It seems he, as well as the prime contractor, could be liable for damages if it is a code issue or not. I would advise notifying the prime contractor of the issue. It is up to the prime to control the subs.

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    But ... that does not answer or address the question - one could very well have a dedicated circuit to the gas cook top or range AND that circuit be GFCI protected, and nothing in the code prohibits that ... UNLESS the manufacturer's installation instructions SPECIFICALLY state no GFCI protection.
    I still ask what does it matter if the cooktop is on a GFCI or not? If you turn the gas on and it doesn't light - for whatever reason - turn it off. I have yet to hear a scenario in which the presence or lack of a GFCI impacts the safety of the cooktop. It's not addressed in the code and it's not addressed in any owner's manuals I could scare up and there's probably a reason for that - because it's not a concern.

    The only thing that would add a real safety impact here is having all burners with thermopiles to prevent any gas from flowing if there's no available ignition source. However, as others have pointed out, some might actually want a cooktop that can operate in the event of a power failure.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    One of the things everyone is overlooking is the ability to cook on gas when the power grid leaves the home or business without electricity at all. If electricity is required for gas flow, one might as well not bother with gas at all.


  30. #30
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Corn Walker View Post
    I I have yet to hear a scenario in which the presence or lack of a GFCI impacts the safety of the cooktop. .

    Do you have Children???


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Alderman View Post
    Do you have Children???
    And whether the cooktop is on a GFCI or not impacts the safety how exactly? What's the scenario?


  32. #32
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    GFCI for what ever reason has been tripped: cook comes in and sets pot on the stove turns on burner, door bell rings, she goes to answer door, gas flows, maybe she smokes.... Child plays in the kitchen turns on knob (my children have done it) goes on and plays upstairs gas flows.....

    I never said it was likely scenarios but Code is written ALL the time for the MOST unlikely things that might happen. I just think this is more likely some already written.
    Tony


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Alderman View Post
    GFCI for what ever reason has been tripped: cook comes in and sets pot on the stove turns on burner, door bell rings, she goes to answer door, gas flows, maybe she smokes.... Child plays in the kitchen turns on knob (my children have done it) goes on and plays upstairs gas flows.....

    Let's apply that to an old house with old appliances without electric ignition:
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Alderman View Post
    cook comes in and sets pot on the stove turns on burner, door bell rings, she goes to answer door, gas flows, maybe she smokes.... Child plays in the kitchen turns on knob (my children have done it) goes on and plays upstairs gas flows.....
    What is the difference between the two?

    THAT is what the others are asking.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  34. #34
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Both are the same problem from a different angle.

    An old house without electric ignition would "generally" have a standing pilot light which "generally" would heat a thermocouple. If the pilot was blown out the coupler would cool and then no free gas.

    But there are toughs that were lit by a match. Then we are back to the same problem as before. In the past we have had dangerous things in our houses ie. un-vented space heaters.

    I don't know.... maybe I'm confusing my own self


  35. #35
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks View Post
    No, but the electrician is.

    It seems he, as well as the prime contractor, could be liable for damages if it is a code issue or not.
    Seriously? What would either of them be "liable" for in a PERFECTLY code complaint installation??? I am very curious.

    I actually am with Corn on this one. I fail to see what the safety issue is. I think the replies questioning no safety device on the appliance are more on track with reality here. My own range quite often has the caps on the burners moved just a little bit preventing the ignitor from lighting the gas. Would you call the appliance out for this? This is an actual issue. It happens quite often. Who get's blamed for that?
    What about turning the gas on past the ignitor setting??? This is another very easy to do problem.
    Everyone is always looking to blame someone else for their OWN mistakes or issues.
    Yes, I have kids. And we have had a gas range since they were born. We taught them NOT to touch the knobs. Wow, parenting. What a novel idea.

    The whole "there is still gas flowing with the GFI tripped" philosophy smacks of Chicken Little. You are searching for or assuming a problem where none exists.
    There are SO MANY things that can go wrong with the power out. How about NO AFCIs allowed anywhere in a home because someone may be on oxygen and if it trips they will not be able to go and reset the breaker and their machine will not work? I consider this a simliar comparison.

    Would I or do I power the gas range receptacle from a GFI load? No, not typically.
    Would I admit to or acknowledge ANY wrong doing by installing one this way. ABSOLUTELY NOT.


  36. #36
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Petey View Post
    The whole "there is still gas flowing with the GFI tripped" philosophy smacks of Chicken Little. You are searching for or assuming a problem where none exists.
    ABSOLUTELY NOT.
    The fact is that the problem does exist.... No power...no spark.. knob turned on..... gas flows freely. To me that's a problem.


  37. #37
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Whirlpools installation instructions

    "Electrical: 120-volt, 60-Hz, AC-only, 15-amp, fused electrical
    circuit is required. A separate circuit serving only this range is
    recommended. A time-delay fuse or circuit breaker is recommended."

    At least it can't be accidentally tripped if it's a dedicated circuit.


  38. #38
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Alderman View Post
    Whirlpools installation instructions

    "Electrical: 120-volt, 60-Hz, AC-only, 15-amp, fused electrical
    circuit is required. A separate circuit serving only this range is
    recommended. A time-delay fuse or circuit breaker is recommended."

    At least it can't be accidentally tripped if it's a dedicated circuit.
    BUT ... it still CAN BE TRIPPED ...

    So what is the difference with regards to your concern?

    You did note, I hope, that it DOES NOT state "Do not install GFCI protection on this circuit."

    And (bold and underlining are mine) "A separate circuit serving only this range is recommended." It does not state "required" or "shall be".

    You are missing the point Peter, I, and others are trying to get you to see, and I thought Peter did a good job of stating it.

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  39. #39
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Ok we have long since left any discussion of a code question. Yes I did note it is "Recommended" The fact remains, however that it is "Recommended" so therefore must have some rationalization for it.

    I'm sorry but I just think there is a potential for a problem and like other codes if people die from it then they will change the code.

    Now as far as the house I inspected with this stove I did inform them it wasn't required and that there was a fairly straight forward fix that a electrician could take care of.

    Petey
    "Wow, parenting. What a novel idea. " Really??? Glad you been with your kids 27/7


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Alderman View Post
    Petey
    "Wow, parenting. What a novel idea. " Really??? Glad you been with your kids 27/7
    That's not what I meant and you know it.


  41. #41
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    Talking Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Just checking


  42. #42
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    Exclamation Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Um Actually, all codes are there because of the potential for injuries and fatalities, hell gfcis are there because some folks just dont understand electricity and water dont mix, tamper resistant receptacles are there so little johnny or janey wont be able to push objects into slots without doing them simultaneously! So much for parenting there; fact is codes are driven by the insurance agencies, to protect us from ourselves.


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Joe, make no mistake, Codes are also there because the manuf industry exerts their influence to make new products 'necessary'. In addition, the insurance lobby doesn't care what the probability of a perceived hazard my be, or if the remedy that saves them 1 cent costs every homeowner 100 dollars.

    Anthony, U make an excellent point. Per art 210.8, Only receptacles serving counter top surfaces are required to be gfci protected. There is no need and should not be, a gas range plugged into a gfci protected receptacle. EVERY contractor in my county wires them on the line side of the gfci outlet or wire nut in a box, whatever the case might be.
    I have even approved a few wired with the range hood, (now to be a dedicated circuit).

    Yes, any circuit can trip, but the issue is what is most likely to trip.
    Gfci's are most definitely more likely to trip. Hopefully, either the range manufacturers will rectify this situation or we AHJ's will address this next code cycle.
    Apparently the insurance industry hasn't got wind of this scenario as yet.
    Bob Smit, County Electrical Inspector


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by bob smit View Post
    There is no need and should not be, a gas range plugged into a gfci protected receptacle.
    (emphasis added)

    Why shouldn't it be?

    Apparently the insurance industry hasn't got wind of this scenario as yet.
    What exactly is the scenario, again?

    Here's the scenario others are describing as I see it:

    Faulty appliance causes ground fault, opening circuit. No power to igniter. User turns on gas. Gas doesn't ignite. User leaves gas on.... boom!

    Aside from loss of power to the igniter, other reasons the gas might not ignite include turning the knob past the "ignite" setting, an incorrectly installed anode or cathode, damage to the anode, a dirty anode, excessive gas flow, insufficient gas flow, blocked gas ports, improperly installed cap and others. None of these more common reasons for ignition failure is aided by switching the plug to an unprotected outlet. But you do introduce the potential of an appliance NOT protected from ground fault. (Incidentally, how do you handle gas appliances that have a convenience receptacle for things like immersion blenders?)

    Why is the user leaving the gas on when it hasn't ignited and why is the GFCI tripping in the first place? If they're so distractible that the phone ringing causes them to forget they've turned on the gas then I'm afraid there's not much hope for them. And I'd hate for them to touch that ground faulting appliance while washing dishes but they probably will.


  45. #45
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Alderman View Post
    Ok guys I need help. 2009 new home. Gas range. Range power down stream of the counter top GFCI. If the GFCI is tripped and you try to turn on a burner raw gas comes out the burners because the ignites wont spark...... because no power!!! I called it out but the electrician said it's not code and will not change it. Am I all wet????
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Scott, NEC 210.52(B)(2) exception 3 allows gas ranges, ovens or countertop mounted cooking units to be fed from the SABC.
    This NEC article allows a receptacle to be on the same branch circuit as the small appliances. It should NOT, however, be on the LOAD side of the GFCI - for reasons you pointed out in the first post. The electrician is an idiot. Period.


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by HT Neighbors View Post
    This NEC article allows a receptacle to be on the same branch circuit as the small appliances. It should NOT, however, be on the LOAD side of the GFCI - for reasons you pointed out in the first post. The electrician is an idiot. Period.
    You say that, and I'll ask you the same question (which you'll notice has gone unanswered). Why?

    How is it these GFCIs are getting tripped and the gas is flowing freely? Why is it okay that the range is not protected by a GFCI? Are ranges impervious to ground faults? What if the range has a convenience receptacle?

    I'm seeing a lot of people saying this is wrong, and I have yet to hear a credible reason why.

    Now I am aware that some appliance manufacturers suggest not using a GFCI. The reason they give is because their appliances leak some current to ground and cause nuisance trips. Rather than correct the improper electrical design of their appliance (many of which, believe it or not, haven't changed appreciably in a decade), they believe the better alternative is to bypass safety devices.


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by HT Neighbors View Post
    This NEC article allows a receptacle to be on the same branch circuit as the small appliances. It should NOT, however, be on the LOAD side of the GFCI - for reasons you pointed out in the first post. The electrician is an idiot. Period.
    Pretty strong condemnation of someones intellect, especially without anything to back up your reasons.


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by bob smit View Post
    There is no need and should not be, a gas range plugged into a gfci protected receptacle.
    Quote Originally Posted by HT Neighbors View Post
    This NEC article allows a receptacle to be on the same branch circuit as the small appliances. It should NOT, however, be on the LOAD side of the GFCI

    I will repeat the unanswered question in the posts above: Please provide a code reference STATING IT SHOULD NOT BE wired to a GFCI protected receptacle or circuit.

    Otherwise, your statements are simply "opinions" and were incorrectly stated as though they were representing fact.

    The code SPECIFICALLY ALLOWS the small appliance branch circuit to be used for the gas range igniter. The code allows for the use of GFCI breakers ... which PROTECT THE CIRCUIT ... which is allowed to be used for the gas range.

    Back to my learning something new ... please provide the code reference which states a gas range igniter SHOULD NOT BE connected to GFCI protection.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  49. #49
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    Exclamation Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Ok, having been beaten to death everyones opinions, we do understand that code does not address either way. Again common sense unfortunately is never addressed, some asked us to provide a scenario, and this evening , unfortunately, or fortunately however a few here may deem, an incident that actually warrants, imho, the need for gfci protection on a stove or cooktop.
    My 15 yo son had a few friends in this evening, and as boys will be boys, they have their love, or is it infatuation with the boxed mac and cheese, yes Kraft, any whoo, there were more here than any normal parent would allow, ( i digress, rules here are no one in the house when we arent home, sorry for those that wish to attack parenting,) they put my large crab pot, (26 qt.) on the stove to make enough for all of bucks county.
    Well some horseplay and fortunately, for all involved, said pot somehow tipped over on the stove, and aforementioned gfci protected as well as my overpriced well protected cooktop, all safeties kicked in and no one, i repeat no one suffered any injuries, (burns, electrocution) occured, so lets add boiling over, or spilled upon cooktop, another reason to dictate the need for gfci protection on a stove. If my memory serves me correctly, inspections do allow for opinions, whether code is involved, and ....wait, we are not permitted to quote codes in any fields, unless we are certified and or licensed in said fields. Am I correct in these assumptions?
    Joe
    "I once thought I was wrong, But I was mistaken", my Pop


  50. #50
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I will repeat the unanswered question in the posts above: Please provide a code reference STATING IT SHOULD NOT BE wired to a GFCI protected receptacle or circuit.

    Otherwise, your statements are simply "opinions" and were incorrectly stated as though they were representing fact.

    The code SPECIFICALLY ALLOWS the small appliance branch circuit to be used for the gas range igniter. The code allows for the use of GFCI breakers ... which PROTECT THE CIRCUIT ... which is allowed to be used for the gas range.

    Back to my learning something new ... please provide the code reference which states a gas range igniter SHOULD NOT BE connected to GFCI protection.
    For another poster - How or why a gas-fired range continues to flow gas without power is a design decision with the manufacturer, based on whatever rules and codes they have to follow.

    NEC Article 210.52(B)(2), "No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets."

    Exception 2: "Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units."

    This allows the small electrical loads associated with gas-fired appliances to be connected to small-appliance branch circuits. The BRANCH CIRCUIT - This does not say on the load side of a GFCI receptacle on that branch circuit. But, obviously what you are asking, it does not prohibit it either.

    Although there are GFCI breakers and other devices with different ratings and purposes, a GFCI receptacle used in a residence, operates on a current differential of 5 mA between the HOT and NEUTRAL. The listing standard permits a differential of 4 to 6 mA, (UL 943.) What differential is detected when the ignitor is energized? I don't know. 7 - 10 - 200? Let's say it's less than the 4 mA, and the GFCI doesn't trip when the gas is being ignited. OK. Suppose the GFCI receptacle trips, some other time, for some other reason. No ignitor - but obviously gas can still flow.

    Believe it or not, everything can't be in the code. Somewhere, sometime, common sense must kick in for the electrician. When the GFCI trips, the power to the range should not be interrupted - especially if this particular range allows gas to flow. For refusing to return and change his feed to the gas appliance receptacle (from the LOAD to the LINE side of the receptacle) - he is an idiot.

    I have worked in the electrical industry for 27 years. I am currently licensed in 3 states and owned my own electrical contracting company for 11 years. Although currently an industrial electrical inspector, I installed many GFCI receptacles in new residential construction over the years. NEVER, EVER have I heard of installing the feed to a gas-fired appliance receptacle from the LOAD side of a residential GFCI receptacle. (Until now!) Why de-energize a receptacle with a GFCI trip that you wish to remain energized - especially when this load is NOT required to be GFCI protected and gas can still flow? More of the common sense stuff. The electrical inspector (AHJ) should have red-tagged this installation in a heartbeat - for SAFETY reasons.

    Back to MY learning something new...please provide the code reference which states a gas range ignitor SHOULD be connected to GFCI protection.


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by HT Neighbors View Post
    The electrical inspector (AHJ) should have red-tagged this installation in a heartbeat - for SAFETY reasons.
    And yet again, people keep coming back to the "safety" issue but fail to demonstrate how it represents a safety issue.

    Most gas cooktops will allow gas to flow without it having been ignited. Shocking but true. A tripped GFI is but one of many ways the gas might not ignite and I would wager is one of the least common ways. The most common way I've seen is a pot of pasta boiling over and extinguishing the flame.

    What you're trying to protect against is someone leaving the non-ignited gas on. That can only be done through redesigning the appliance - placing the circuit on the "line" side of a GFI doesn't help you there. In fact, having it NOT protected by a GFI might raise its own safety issue as it exposes the range to potential ground fault conditions. In my "pasta" situation, even a thermopile doesn't help. You need a range that provides for automatic re-ignition.

    Back to MY learning something new...please provide the code reference which states a gas range ignitor SHOULD be connected to GFCI protection.
    Wait, are you REALLY suggesting that we should be prohibited from providing extra safety measures UNLESS the code allows us to make our installation more safe?

    GFCI receptacles are not required in bedrooms, but I installed them anyway (mind you this was before AFCI were required in my area but I installed those too). Are you saying my inspector should have denied my CO because I went above and beyond the code mandated minimum protection levels?


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Two points;
    Some have failed to notice that my statement regarding this subject is "SHOULD not be on the load side of a gfci"
    did not say 'shall or must be'. Obviously, this was meant to be this AHJ's opinion. I also made it clear that this ruling is in effect in my jurisdiction.
    Never was a statement made that it shall be the ruling in the readers of this posts' jurisdiction.

    I gave the code article 210.8, which tells us that only the counter top receptacles require gfci protection. This gives the AHJ the latitude to make a determination regarding other receptacles in the Kit as is provided in, dare I say it, 90.4 (my bad) and 110.3(a)(8) that mentions 'other factors that contribute to the practical safeguarding....

    I realize that there is a mixed bag of considerations regarding load side gas appliances. But, sometimes the AHJ has to pick the least of the evils. Since (I thought) I made it clear that this was my ruling for my juristiction......no need to get yer panties in a bunch,.. were all entitled to our opinion on this site....not knocking anyones here.

    Just a note for what it's worth to each individual. Even though I made this ruling for my county as stated in my first reply; I have never heard of or witnessed a contractor putting a gas appliance on a gfci. I have asked a few fellow AHJ's if they have come across said gfci SCENARIO and to my surprise, not yet. Apparently, the majority of contractors/inspectors feel that not gfci protecting a gas range is the least of the evils, since gfci's are likely to trip.
    Bob Smit, County Electrical Inspector


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by HT Neighbors View Post
    This allows the small electrical loads associated with gas-fired appliances to be connected to small-appliance branch circuits. The BRANCH CIRCUIT - This does not say on the load side of a GFCI receptacle on that branch circuit. But, obviously what you are asking, it does not prohibit it either.

    You have entirely missed the point I was pointing out ... you said "This does not say on the load side of a GFCI receptacle ... " and I pointed out that a GFCI RECEPTACLE IS NOT EVEN REQUIRED ... a GFCI breaker IS ALLOWED, and how would you connect that circuit to the GFCI breaker IF NOT ON THE LOAD SIDE of the breaker????

    In trying to defend your position you apparently did not even read what I was pointing out, or you ignored it, I do not know which.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Point taken.
    Bob Smit


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by HT Neighbors View Post
    Although there are GFCI breakers and other devices with different ratings and purposes, a GFCI receptacle used in a residence, operates on a current differential of 5 mA between the HOT and NEUTRAL.

    ALL Class A GFCI protection devices, whether breakers, receptacles, or just GFCI devices with neither, have the same 4 ma to 6 ma trip range (5 ma +/- 1 ma) within 6 ms (6 milliseconds).

    Class A GFCI devices are for people protection.

    A Class B GFCI device trips at greater than 20 ma within 7 ms. You would be dead if you were relying on a Class B GFCI device.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  56. #56
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    a GFCI breaker IS ALLOWED, and how would you connect that circuit to the GFCI breaker IF NOT ON THE LOAD SIDE of the breaker????

    One reason a GFCI breaker is not a problem (IMHO) is that it can't be randomly tripped. Those are the faults I'm concerned about.


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Alderman View Post
    One reason a GFCI breaker is not a problem (IMHO) is that it can't be randomly tripped.

    Huh?

    ANYTHING can trip a GFCI breaker, and doing so in your scenario would be worse ... at least if a GFCI receptacle in the kitchen the person would have a better chance of looking around to see what was different and reset the GFCI. A breaker in the panel is out-of-sight-and-out-of-mind.

    Let's put it this way ... there is a MUCH GREATER CHANCE of that cigar you are smoking in your avatar of being dangerous than an igniter on a GFCI circuit.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  58. #58
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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    If we go waaaaayyyyy back to the beginning of the post my concern was with the accidental tripping of the circuit and the exposure of gas. With that in mind the Breaker can't be accidentally tripped. That was my only point with my statement.


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Alderman View Post
    If we go waaaaayyyyy back to the beginning of the post my concern was with the accidental tripping of the circuit and the exposure of gas. With that in mind the Breaker can't be accidentally tripped.

    Why not?

    Anything electrical which would accidentally trip the GFCI receptacle would also trip the GFCI breaker.

    If you are worried about a kid accidentally PUSHING THE TEST BUTTON ... versus tripping (which is what you said) ... then if the kid is old enough to get up on the counter and push the button the kid is old enough to know better.

    I doubt the person doing the cooking would accidentally push the test button and not hear the GFCI pop off, then push the reset button to reset it.

    Your concern is so far fetched as to really be stretching for an extremely rare event that you might as well call out an attic light not being GFCI protected because one might, just might, accidentally break the lamp and touch the inside of the socket thereby electrocuting themselves.

    I would say that extremely rare event would be about equal to what you are worried about.

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 01-20-2010 at 08:15 PM. Reason: spellin' "here" should have been "hear"
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  60. #60
    Anthony Alderman's Avatar
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    Smile Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Your probably right, and I've over thunk the thing.....


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Not so AA. Gfci's whether breaker or receptacle type are more prone to trip than a standard breaker which will only trip with a large overcurrent over much more time, as opposed to the millivolt grd fault tripping almost immediately. Both of course will trip during a short to ground. But even in that situation the standard breaker has a much longer time envelope.

    I've done service work for many years and cannot begin to remember how many times Mrs. Homeowner, and yes Mr. Homeowner, couldn't figure out why they could not get the circuit breaker to work, had no clue that it was the gfci receptacle...kitchens, baths, etc. Had a Neighbor a few months ago that couldn't figure out why her hydro massage wasn't working.
    After all this time people still have yet to think of the gfci as the culprit.
    Gfci's are prone to trip, 99% of the time for good reason. These items do go south, as it were, and when they do we don't want the range on their load side. The same goes for sump pumps.
    Bob Smit, County Electrical Inspector


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Bob, a couple of points.

    Quote Originally Posted by bob smit View Post
    Not so AA. Gfci's whether breaker or receptacle type are more prone to trip than a standard breaker which will only trip with a large overcurrent over much more time, as opposed to the millivolt grd fault tripping almost immediately.
    GFI's trip due to a current imbalance (amperage). Voltage is not an issue. Typically it is 4-6mA.



    Quote Originally Posted by bob smit View Post
    Both of course will trip during a short to ground.
    GFI's do NOT trip due to a bolted fault to ground or overcurrent.


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    Default Re: GFCI on a Gas range

    Speedy,
    First point, typo, should be ma, not mv. thanks for pointing that out but I think most would of gave me the benifit of the doubt.

    Your second point however.......I will not spend the time here to explain how the gfci will trip under a short condition.
    Some AHJ's and I love to do experiments, especially destructive testing.
    I suggest U set this one up (i do some on my welding bench which doesn't burn down the shop) and short one out using something as a series resistor, such as a 100 watt lamp.
    Bob Smit, County Electrical Inspector


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