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  1. #66
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    I understand and agree with all you said, but what does this mean?

    Where necessary to ensure the grounding path for a metal piping system used as a grounding electrode

    Guess I need to say if differently ...

    The ONLY PART which is a "grounding electrode" is the part which is underground and at least 10 feet long (the longer the better), and, of course, any part between that underground part and the location of the connection from the grounding electrode conductor, which is required to be within 5 feet of where it enters the structure.

    In many locations, the water meter is located between the underground water piping and the inside grounding electrode connection to the metal water piping, and as such, and being as the water meter is designed and intended to be removed, a bonding jumper is required to be installed around the water meter to maintain the electrical continuity required for that to be used as a grounding electrode.

    Not sure if I said it any better or not?

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  2. #67
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    What I'm getting at is, is the code section 250.68 only applicable to systems that use the water pipe instead of a driven rod?


  3. #68
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    What I'm getting at is, is the code section 250.68 only applicable to systems that use the water pipe instead of a driven rod?

    Your answer will be found in the answer to these two questions:
    - What joints are in a driven rod?
    - Is a driven rod a "metal piping system"?

    Think of it this way:
    - Grounding electrode conductor goes from the service equipment to the first grounding electrode and must be continuous.
    - Grounding electrode conductor/bonding jumper will go from that first grounding electrode to another grounding electrode.
    - The connection of either a grounding electrode conductor or a bonding jumper must have an effective grounding path (making good electrical contact with the grounding electrode) to the grounding electrode.
    - *IF* there are insulated joints or equipment likely to be disconnected in a metal piping system - a bonding jumper is needed around those items.

    Note that, yes, in that last item, the code states: "Where necessary to ensure the grounding path for a metal piping system used as a grounding electrode, bonding shall be provided around insulated joints and around any equipment likely to be disconnected for repairs or replacement." ... "for a metal piping system used as a grounding electrode" ... meaning that is applicable to "metal piping system".

    Not sure if that answers your question?

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  4. #69
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Jerry, you went a long way for what I thought was a yes or no answer. I think you ended up with yes.

    Thanks


  5. #70
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Thanks JP.
    What I see mostly in the older homes with copper plumbing is a ground rod or two plus a ground strap to the cold line where it enters the basement or crawl.

    One house last week actually had a bonding conductor to the water heater, a rare sight. The plumber was so bewildered by it, he clamped it to the TPRV discharge tube.

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  6. #71
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    After spending the better part of the day sitting in a hospital waiting room this is almost being at the beach ....well maybe for Jerry anyway....

    I don't have anything to add other than a graphic from Mike Holts free graphic page and to just say that my experience little as I'm told it is would be when you have an electrode of any kind metal water pipe, driven rod, plate , ufer , ring whatever .. 250.68 is saying you cannot interrupt any grounding electrode conductor or bonding jumper to a listed electrode in a manner that will make the ground fault path to that electrode questionable and thereby making the Grounding Electrode System unable to function for its intended purpose. You likely will only find equipment installed that interupts that ground fault path when dealing with metal water pipe systems used as the grounding electrode.

    A hot water tank does not interupt the ground fault path to an electrode...unless it would be the situation Jerry already described and would be a screw up with code compliance.



    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 02-08-2010 at 10:12 PM.

  7. #72
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Roger, I hope everything is ok?

    My point on 250.68 is that it is focused on grounding that utilizes the pipe and is not talking about grounding systems that use a driven rod, ufer, etc. So if, as in most of the newer homes, there is a driven ground rod bonding around anything with a jumper is not required. The metal pipe still needs to be bonded, but no jumpers are required even at the meter.

    Well that's the way I read it...


  8. #73
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Roger, I hope everything is ok?

    My point on 250.68 is that it is focused on grounding that utilizes the pipe and is not talking about grounding systems that use a driven rod, ufer, etc. So if, as in most of the newer homes, there is a driven ground rod bonding around anything with a jumper is not required. The metal pipe still needs to be bonded, but no jumpers are required even at the meter.

    Well that's the way I read it...
    Hi Vern


    BTW... I'm fine my Dad who is 84 has pneumonia.

    Well I can only answer the way I have been doing things and have been taught to do the groundingfor the GES. If I have a metal water pipe present and that water pipe qualifies for a grounding electrode then I must use it as an electrode, I then must supplement it with another electrode(s). The reason I am supplementing with another type of electrode is the possibility that a plastic repair will be made to the metal water pipe electrode and the dwelling will be without an electrode if I don't have another electrode that is supplemental to the water pipe. So even though I have two electrodes.. rod and metal water pipe .. both must be functioning electrodes at the time of installation. Meaning even though I have a driven rod the water pipe must be functional as an electrode and will require a water meter or water filter to have a bonding jumper across it. Then if that water pipe has a plastic repair at a later date The dwelling will still have at least one functioning electrode.


  9. #74
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    quick question concerning my own home, I have a private well for my domestic water uses, no "metal " piping from well to home, (130') and my HWH is not made of steel, its some sort of thermoplastic. Yes, it is electric, 90 gal and all piping in house is pex. Guess when I finally sell the place I'll have all inspectors going ape over what should and shouldnt be there, much like when I went for my U&O in 2005, Local AHJ had a hell of a time, Chose this HWH for many reasons, particularly green before green was good, and having had 2 prior homes with private wells, learned sediments rot tanks quickly. Any thoughts? Water Heater, 85g - Electric Water Heaters - Water Heaters - Plumbing : Grainger Industrial Supply


  10. #75
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Driscoll View Post
    quick question concerning my own home, I have a private well for my domestic water uses, no "metal " piping from well to home, (130') and my HWH is not made of steel, its some sort of thermoplastic. Yes, it is electric, 90 gal and all piping in house is pex. Guess when I finally sell the place I'll have all inspectors going ape over what should and shouldnt be there, much like when I went for my U&O in 2005, Local AHJ had a hell of a time, Chose this HWH for many reasons, particularly green before green was good, and having had 2 prior homes with private wells, learned sediments rot tanks quickly. Any thoughts? Water Heater, 85g - Electric Water Heaters - Water Heaters - Plumbing : Grainger Industrial Supply
    Joe, the same statement I am having trouble with, "Where necessary to ensure the grounding path for a metal piping system used as a grounding electrode" would exempt your piping system as it is not metal.

    Roger I hope your dad has a speedy recovery. Spend as much time with him as you can.

    To be the devil's advocate, there is not a code requirement to have multiple grounding systems as far as I know. If there is a driven rod, ufer, etc. that is used as a grounding electrode, then the metal piping would need to be bonded. (There have been many lectures posted about bonding vs. grounding). Just because the pipe goes into the earth does not make it used as a grounding electrode. If it did we would be required to bond the pipe within 5' of entry, and as discussed here that is not a code requirement.

    I am not trying to be a nit picker, well maybe I am, but with accuracy comes credibility. If I write something up that is logically correct, I want to know how it can be debunked by a code ranger.


  11. #76
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Vern,
    The AHJ here held up my U&O for nearly a month, we use private 3rd party underwriters here in PA, but the local yokel insisted the 2 ground rods installed 6' apart was inadequate. He's also the fire marshall, parade marshall, and a few other hats i'm certain, (Ain't diversity grand?), finally issued a provisional U&O stating when he could provide proof otherwise, I would need to rectify the situation. That was in November 05, havent heard anything other than he brought in a nearby towns inspector for backing, but that fellow agreed with me and the underwriter, no codes addressed it.
    Recently, we completed a development that not only used poly water mains, they also used poly gas, and sewer, but copper water within structures? I have no clue what they accomplished in doing this, but the homes are 650k and up, Mc Mansions we call them around here, I would like some feedback from others on this as well. Been a sparky for over 3 decades, going to need to be real convincing


  12. #77
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Joe, the same statement I am having trouble with, "Where necessary to ensure the grounding path for a metal piping system used as a grounding electrode" would exempt your piping system as it is not metal.

    Roger I hope your dad has a speedy recovery. Spend as much time with him as you can.

    To be the devil's advocate, there is not a code requirement to have multiple grounding systems as far as I know. If there is a driven rod, ufer, etc. that is used as a grounding electrode, then the metal piping would need to be bonded. (There have been many lectures posted about bonding vs. grounding). Just because the pipe goes into the earth does not make it used as a grounding electrode. If it did we would be required to bond the pipe within 5' of entry, and as discussed here that is not a code requirement.

    I am not trying to be a nit picker, well maybe I am, but with accuracy comes credibility. If I write something up that is logically correct, I want to know how it can be debunked by a code ranger.
    You know I never looked at it that way and you may very well be correct... You could certainly read the NEC language that way now that you bring it to my attention.

    All I know is in our area we would be required to use the water pipe as an electrode if it qualifies as one and get this ... at one time we had to connect not more than 3" (yes inches) from where the cold water pipe entered the dwelling.

    How do you get around the language "if present" in 250.50 ? And then 250.53(A2) NEC 2008


  13. #78
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Remember the conditions stated IN the original post - regarding picture one (actually all of the pics) and that it is a PRE 1980s home. If in the States that would mean floating grounds to metal water pipes were still allowed - and it didn't just have to be a COLD water metalic pipe)
    (ex. two wire no ecg system, permitted to install a grounded receptacle and attach a ecg to a metalic water pipe) - and it didn't just have to be a cold water pipe. The SAME NEC EDITIONS REQUIRED THAT ALL METAL WATER PIPING HAD TO BE ELECTRICALLY CONTINUOUS. These same NEC Editions did NOT require that the GEC METALIC WATER PIPE ENTRANCE/Interconnection be within five feet of the entrance to the structure, allowed use "upstream" to interconnect the Electrodes. The same editions did not use the language "likely to become engergized" it used "may" (ex. open neutral with floating ground; multiwire branch circuit with one open hot & loose neutral, etc.).

    During the same cycles of the NEC where it was required that the metal water system be electrically continuous (or made to be) a receptacle could be replaced and the EGC ran to the nearest water pipe. The same year that the words "made electrically continuous" were removed from 250-80 the relief to run the EGC from a three wire receptacle was removed from 250.50(b) Exception. Allowing the EGC from a replacement receptacle to land on the water pipe was removed in 1993. 250-50(b) Exception is 250.130 in the 2005 cycle. If it was still the intent for ALL of the metal water pipe to be electrically continuous there would have been no need to remove the wording from 250.50(b).

    That doesn't change the fact that the more recent editions of the NEC do not require that those "floating grounds" be removed UNLESS work is being done that requires it.

    250.80 Bonding of Piping Systems. All interior metal water and gas piping that may become energized shall be bonded together and made electrically continuous. An equipment bonding jumper sized in accordance with table 250-95 shall be connected between the bonded piping system(s) and the grounding electrode conductor at the service disconnecting means.

    By the 1984 code cycle the words, "that may become energized" and "and made electrically continuous" were removed from 250-80 and has not been in any code cycle from that date. The requirement was moved to 250.104 in the 1999 cycle.


    Before this entire conversation got off track I pointed out electrically continuous requirement of all metalic water piping WAS required and floating grounds WERE allowed pre 1980s and interbonding hot & cold water pipes at the Electric Water Heater since it is NOT a part of the metalic water piping system, it is a plumbing appliance (part of the PLUMBING SYSTEM, but NOT the PIPING SYSTEM) which was, is, and in the future MAY be removed or disconnected (mechanically and not completely electrically, or both mechanically AND completely from the entire electrical system) for maintenance, repair, or replacement. Maintaining equipotential (that is equal potential or same potential) is important at all times, not just while the pipes are full of water and the water heater is mechanically connected to the cold inlet port and hot outlet port. The jumper, therefore should be from upstream of the supply valve cold side - to the outlet hot metalic pipe.

    For a home of this vintage one would have to determine (behind closed walls!) if there were NO interconnection of EGCs ("grounds") to ANY metalic piping - AND that the "electrical SYSTEM" had been "upgraded" or MEETS the present NEC standards you are attempting to apply, BEFORE OVERLOOKING the REQUIREMENTS CIRCA the SYSTEM ORIGIN and PRIOR "MODIFICATIONS" - i.e. where "IN THE DAY" ALL metal piping was required to be "ELECTRICALLY CONTINUOUS" and IF NOT, MADE TO BE.

    When including bonding metal gas lines - but first if incoming metalic one had to assure INSULATION/isolation (make sure still functioning - usually before gas meter or just after regulator) from any CATHODIC protection system (voltage) applied to that underground metalic (utility) pipe. Yet another reason the metalic waste plumbing was likewise bonded.

    (When in the OLDer NEC the metalic water pipes were permitted to be used for ECG).

    The connection to the incoming metalic water supply pipe if in contact more than 10 feet to ground serves MORE THAN ONE PURPOSE. It was not required to be within 5 feet until much more recently than 1980 - and connections to this metalic cold water distribution pipe to other electrodes and to the service panel were allowed to be made further from the water pipe entrance.


  14. #79
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    You know I never looked at it that way and you may very well be correct... You could certainly read the NEC language that way now that you bring it to my attention.

    All I know is in our area we would be required to use the water pipe as an electrode if it qualifies as one and get this ... at one time we had to connect not more than 3" (yes inches) from where the cold water pipe entered the dwelling.

    How do you get around the language "if present" in 250.50 ? And then 250.53(A2) NEC 2008
    250.52 describes what a grounding electrode can be. Doesn't say the water pipe is or has to be.

    250.53 says that all of the grounding electrodes have to be bonded together. If the water pipe is not a grounding electrode it doesn't have to follow this part of the code.

    250.53 (D) (2) says that if the grounding is via underground pipe, it must be supplemented by another electrode. Doesn't have to be two rods etc. and can be spliced to the primary GEC. Remembering that the primary GEC can not be spliced.

    So if the grounding electrode is driven rod, ufer, etc. the only requirement is to bond to the water pipe, which in its self does not make it a grounding electrode.

    Last edited by Vern Heiler; 02-10-2010 at 10:12 AM. Reason: 250.50 should have been 250.52

  15. #80
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    There are two reason for a bond at the hot and cold pipes at a water heater. One, It is a removable appliance and two, if one bonds at this location all the faucets will be bonded even with plastic risers. (as long as no plastic repairs exist)


  16. #81
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    To be the devil's advocate, there is not a code requirement to have multiple grounding systems as far as I know.
    Except for when water pipe is used, in which case a supplementary grounding electrode is required.

    If there is a driven rod, ufer, etc.
    ... if there is ...

    If the grounding electrode is present, it MUST be used and bonded to the rest of the grounding electrode system.

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  17. #82
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    In respose to my statement: Are you saying the female thread fittings in the top of the tank are not welded to the metal tank?



    H.G. I gota say; when your right your right!


    But when your wrong, you are soooo wrong!
    Wasn't and am not wrong, you've proved nothing for the case in point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    H.G.

    Hit the shower. You have lost. That was game, set, match!
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Driscoll View Post
    quick question concerning my own home, I have a private well for my domestic water uses, no "metal " piping from well to home, (130') and my HWH is not made of steel, its some sort of thermoplastic. Yes, it is electric, 90 gal and all piping in house is pex. Guess when I finally sell the place I'll have all inspectors going ape over what should and shouldnt be there, much like when I went for my U&O in 2005, Local AHJ had a hell of a time, Chose this HWH for many reasons, particularly green before green was good, and having had 2 prior homes with private wells, learned sediments rot tanks quickly. Any thoughts? Water Heater, 85g - Electric Water Heaters - Water Heaters - Plumbing : Grainger Industrial Supply

    Exactly! Sorry I failed to mention thermoplastics in addition to non-conductive stainless steel alloys.

    What does going to the local big box and testing some display model tank have to do with what is or might be installed in place? absolutely nothing.

    I can get continuity with a hair strand with a miliamp load. Has nothing to do with reality or what the purpose is. 5 amps, 20 amps to the service x200%.

    Get a clue.

    As far as what someone has been taught in limited 25 years and not bothering to know a thing about what might predate him, ptooey! No excuse for it actually. No one's fault but his own for not educating himself, especially during the nightmare (contradictory, unsafe, incomplete) code cycles (early 80s through mid 90s).


  18. #83
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    250.50 describes what a grounding electrode can be. Doesn't say the water pipe is or has to be.

    250.53 says that all of the grounding electrodes have to be bonded together. If the water pipe is not a grounding electrode it doesn't have to follow this part of the code.

    250.53 (D) (2) says that if the grounding is via underground pipe, it must be supplemented by another electrode. Doesn't have to be two rods etc. and can be spliced to the primary GEC. Remembering that the primary GEC can not be spliced.

    So if the grounding electrode is driven rod, ufer, etc. the only requirement is to bond to the water pipe, which in its self does not make it a grounding electrode.
    Not quite correct.

    (underlining, bold, and red are mine)
    - 250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
    - - All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be installed and used.
    - - - Exception: Concrete-encased electrodes of existing buildings or structures shall not be required to be part of the grounding electrode system where the steel reinforcing bars or rods are not accessible for use without disturbing the concrete.

    *IF* there is an underground metal water pipe, and *IF* that underground metal water pipe is to feet long or longer, *IT MUST* (no exception) ... *IT MUST* (i.e., "shall be") be made part of the grounding electrode system.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  19. #84
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Hi Vern

    Sorry for the delay getting back to your reply ... another long day at the hospital.

    I see Jerry has probably communicated a better reply than I. What he explained is why I was having difficulty and asked about 250.50. I was not seeing the language giving me a choice in the matter. I just couldn't get my head around 250.50 saying otherwise. The local authority here has always required us to use a metal water pipe if it is present (and an electrode) forcing you to supplement that water pipe in accordance with 250.53(D)(2). It looks to me that the language in the NEC on this subject supports a "shall be used as an electrode" stance if it is present.


  20. #85
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Hi Vern

    Sorry for the delay getting back to your reply ... another long day at the hospital.

    I see Jerry has probably communicated a better reply than I. What he explained is why I was having difficulty and asked about 250.50. I was not seeing the language giving me a choice in the matter. I just couldn't get my head around 250.50 saying otherwise. The local authority here has always required us to use a metal water pipe if it is present (and an electrode) forcing you to supplement that water pipe in accordance with 250.53(D)(2). It looks to me that the language in the NEC on this subject supports a "shall be used as an electrode" stance if it is present.
    OK I concede with one exception to Jerrys explanation, the metal water pipe must be in direct contact with the soil for 10' or more to be a grounding electrode.

    One more question comes to mind. If the home Joe Driscoll discribed has its water pipe bonded, does it become a grounded electrode when someone installs a sprinkler system with metal pipe to the first control valve if its 10'?


  21. #86
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    HG

    Now I've told you my position on bonding the hot and cold water pipes with an intentional jumper.. I support it. Whether it is just because it makes me feel better or cuddly is irrelevant it is recommended by many in the trade who are authorities on the subject but it is not a requirement by the NEC as you keep trying to make us believe.

    I am really tired of your lack of civilty and need to demean and humilate using inacurrate pastes of code, name calling and a general pattern of disrespect to any one you can't beat into agreeing with you.... shrinks have a term for your illness "Approval Syndrome".

    Your are back on my ignore list ... it makes me all FLUFFY inside..when I see .." post hidden member is on your ignore list " .....
    Rogger, I agree with you on all of the above points! I hope everyone understands my challenging the interpretation of the code was to learn more.

    Give you dad my best wishes.


  22. #87
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Roger, I agree with you on all of the above points! I hope everyone understands my challenging the interpretation of the code was to learn more
    .

    You bet I understand and I in fact enjoy engagements with anyone on understanding code language for the same reason. Lets do it again next time me have the opportunity....

    My dad is doing better maybe back home in a couple more days ... thanks for the kind words.

    As to your question ... to be clear so I don't get my foot in my mouth sideways..
    Joe has a home on a well system that is all plastic pipe and the interior plumbing is pex. So you are saying if the home has interior metal piping that is bonded and at the time of dwelling construction I connect a sprinkler system for irrigation purposes to that metal piping .. (at the point where the interior metal piping transistions to plastic going to the well) .. with 10 feet of metal pipe (in contact with earth) to the first control valve of the sprinkler system. Doing this makes the home have a metal water piping system that is also a must use electrode for the GES.

    I have to head for the HP so will answer later but do I have the question correct?


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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    .

    You bet I understand and I in fact enjoy engagements with anyone on understanding code language for the same reason. Lets do it again next time me have the opportunity....

    My dad is doing better maybe back home in a couple more days ... thanks for the kind words.

    As to your question ... to be clear so I don't get my foot in my mouth sideways..
    Joe has a home on a well system that is all plastic pipe and the interior plumbing is pex. So you are saying if the home has interior metal piping that is bonded and at the time of dwelling construction I connect a sprinkler system for irrigation purposes to that metal piping .. (at the point where the interior metal piping transistions to plastic going to the well) .. with 10 feet of metal pipe to the first control valve of the sprinkler system. Doing this makes the home have a metal water piping system that is also a must use electrode for the GES.

    I have to head for the HP so will answer later but do I have the question correct?
    I believe Joe said the McMansion has copper piping in the home. Plastic to the well.


  24. #89
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    I believe Joe said the McMansion has copper piping in the home. Plastic to the well.
    Gotta run but I understand your question now ... the post before that is the one I thought you were talking about where he was discussing his house....sorry.. should have put two and two together and got 4 sometimes I get 6 or even 8....


  25. #90
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    I was originally talking about my home, i only added the McMansions in a later post, am still curious though if and when I sell my home, what additional work will I need to do? I too read posts here to learn what or how others interpret the codes, I can assure you there is no metallic pipes in my home, not even the pool.


  26. #91
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    I believe Joe said the McMansion has copper piping in the home. Plastic to the well.
    I don't see any qualifiers in the code for the purpose of metal water pipe. If it is metal water pipe in contact with the earth for 10' and is continuous to the point of entry to the home it would be a grounding electrode and you would have to treat it as such if present at the time of construction. My understanding is that the metal water pipe bonding is not the same as the metal water pipe used as a grounding electrode. But if the metal water pipe is used as an electrode the grounding conductor ran to the metal water pipe and clamped to the pipe within five feet of the point of entry would satisfy the bonding requirements of 250.104(A) for the water pipe system.

    In the dust on my brain I believe Soares has an illustration of this exact example. I'll try to find it and copy to this post.... But I have seen this explained in one of my books if not soares. I'll try to locate it.


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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    But if the metal water pipe is used as an electrode the grounding conductor ran to the metal water pipe and clamped to the pipe within five feet of the point of entry would satisfy the bonding requirements of 250.104(A) for the water pipe system.

    In the dust on my brain I believe Soares has an illustration of this exact example. I'll try to find it and copy to this post.... But I have seen this explained in one of my books if not soares. I'll try to locate it.
    Correct, as long as the metal water piping used as the grounding electrode was electrically continuous to the inside metal water piping system.

    If not, or if an insulating or removable component was installed in it (such as a water meter inside a basement) then the insulating or removable component would need to have a bonding jumper around it. Similar to the answer for the off-shoot question about a bonding jumper being needed between the hot and cold water pipes to/from a water heater in the posts above ... (oh no, not back into THAT question loop again )

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Correct, as long as the metal water piping used as the grounding electrode was electrically continuous to the inside metal water piping system.

    If not, or if an insulating or removable component was installed in it (such as a water meter inside a basement) then the insulating or removable component would need to have a bonding jumper around it. Similar to the answer for the off-shoot question about a bonding jumper being needed between the hot and cold water pipes to/from a water heater in the posts above ... (oh no, not back into THAT question loop again )
    Jerry I think you missed the gist of my question. If metal piping, that is not an electrode because it does not have contact with earth, is bonded to the GEC. Does it become a grounding electrode when at a later time metal pipe is added that does contact earth for 10' or more? Like if a sprinkler system is added. Would a grounding conductor need to be connected to the sprinkler supply pipe within 5' at that time?


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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Jerry I think you missed the gist of my question.
    Nope. That post you quoted was responding to the post it quoted - Roger's. Nothing to do with your question.

    If metal piping, that is not an electrode because it does not have contact with earth, is bonded to the GEC. Does it become a grounding electrode when at a later time metal pipe is added that does contact earth for 10' or more?
    We answered that: WHEN (yes, "when" there is underground metal water piping which is 10 feet or more in length, then that metal underground water pipe meets the requirements for a grounding electrode, and the code requires ALL electrodes which are "present" to be connected to the the grounding electrode system.

    HOWEVER ... how on earth would one enforce something like that which is not known to anyone other than whoever installed the additional length of underground water pipe, and why on earth would someone install NEW *metal* water piping underground for sprinkler or for potable domestic water?

    Then again, if it was not "present" at the time of the installation of the grounding electrode system, is it required to have an electrical contractor come back and connect it as part of the grounding electrode system? Depends. If no electrical service work is done - no, however, if electrical service is done - yes.

    Sounds wishy-washy and vague? Yep, because it is.

    Like if a sprinkler system is added. Would a grounding conductor need to be connected to the sprinkler supply pipe within 5' at that time?
    Already addressed that above.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  30. #95
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Hi Vern

    Just logged on after getting home from flirtin with the nurses at the HP .....

    I do see what your saying and I didn't address the idea that the irrigation system was added at a later date. I would also say that would be very difficult to enforce unless the irrigation installer was up to speed on electrical grounding for dwellings. So likely that added metal pipe for the sprinkler would never become a grounding electrode.... intentionally.

    But IMO as long as there is no insulating section ( as Jerry mentioned) installed separating it from where you bonded the interior metal water piping to begin with to satisfy 250.104(A)at the time of new construction it would still be an effective grounding electrode. Meaning that the requirement to connect to a water pipe to bond it to the service grounded conductor within five feet after it enters the home doesn't make it any more effective as an electrode than if you connected 15 feet after it enters the home as long as that insulating section does not exist.

    The 5 feet is just to limit the possibility of an intentional repair with a non metallic pipe between the 5 feet and earth. So even if you added a metal pipe for irrigation as you surmised there is an excellent chance that it will become an effective grounding electrode by default ..

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 02-11-2010 at 08:58 PM. Reason: added word 'intentionally'

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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Hi Vern

    Just logged on after getting home from flirtin with the nurses at the HP .....

    I do see what your saying and I didn't address the idea that the irrigation system was added at a later date. I would also say that would be very difficult to enforce unless the irrigation installer was up to speed on electrical grounding for dwellings. So likely that added metal pipe for the sprinkler would never become a grounding electrode.... intentionally.

    But IMO as long as there is no insulating section ( as Jerry mentioned) installed separating it from where you bonded the interior metal water piping to begin with to satisfy 250.104(A)at the time of new construction it would still be an effective grounding electrode. Meaning that the requirement to connect to a water pipe to bond it to the service grounded conductor within five feet after it enters the home doesn't make it any more effective as an electrode than if you connected 15 feet after it enters the home as long as that insulating section does not exist.

    The 5 feet is just to limit the possibility of an intentional repair with a non metallic pipe between the 5 feet and earth. So even if you added a metal pipe for irrigation as you surmised there is an excellent chance that it will become an effective grounding electrode by default ..
    Which leaves the HI to speculate, which came first the chicken or the egg. But this is all spliting code hairs, if there is a ground rod system installed I would not write any of this up.

    It has been a good learning experience though. Got two inspections tomorrow so its off to the sack. (Hope your dad comes home soon)


  32. #97
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    Default Re: Water Heater BX Quiz

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Which leaves the HI to speculate, which came first the chicken or the egg. But this is all spliting code hairs, if there is a ground rod system installed I would not write any of this up.

    It has been a good learning experience though. Got two inspections tomorrow so its off to the sack. (Hope your dad comes home soon)
    What I would speculate is this ...the egg = the interior metal water pipes

    The chicken = metal irrigation pipe.

    If the egg is bonded correctly and there is no insulating break between the egg and the chicken I wouldn't care less which one came first..... And since we don't know how long the chicken is continuous metal, unless we dig the chicken up, I wouldn't write it up either.

    Dad is recovering nicely and coming home Saturday ...thanks for the conern

    BTW I enjoyed the discussion ...learned a few things myself.

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 02-11-2010 at 10:28 PM.

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