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  1. #1
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    Default garage door opener outlets gfci protected

    hey all

    a chapter meeting tonight and i stated that garage door opener outlets had to be gfci protected and got booed out of the room. does NEC 210.8 {a} {2} cover this.want to boo back but louder. do i have the right code section

    charlie

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets gfci protected

    I can't site the specific code but the previous exception to GFI protection for outlets over 7 feet in a garage was removed in the 2008 code. Meaning, after 08 they're required to be GFI protected.... along with all outlets in kitchens and garages (no more exeptions for refrigerators and freezers).


  3. #3
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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets gfci protected

    NEC 210.8(A)(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use.

    The requirement for GFCI receptacles in garages and sheds, as illustrated in Exhibit 210.10, improves safety for persons using portable handheld tools, gardening appliances, lawn mowers, string trimmers, snow blowers, and so on, that might be connected to these receptacles, which are often the closest ones available. GFCI protection is also required in garage areas where auto repair work and general workshop electrical tools are used.

    Exhibit 210.10 Examples of receptacles in a garage that are required by 210.8(A)(2) to have GFCI protection.

    The exceptions to 210.8(A)(2) have been deleted from the 2008 Code, to ensure that all 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in garages provide GFCI protection for the user of appliances or other equipment regardless of where the receptacle is located in the garage. Appliance leakage currents permitted by today's product standards are far less than the operational threshold of a GFCI.

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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets gfci protected

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    GFI protected.... along with all outlets in kitchens and garages (no more exeptions for refrigerators and freezers).
    Easy there Matt , Not ALL outlets in a kitchen are required to be GFCI.
    Only receptacles that SERVE Countertops - Like it has been for a while now.
    Article 210.8(A)(6) Kitchens - where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets gfci protected

    NEC 210.8(A)(6) Kitchens where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces.

    Many countertop kitchen appliances have only two-wire cords and do not have an equipment grounding conductor. The presence of water and grounded surfaces contributes to a hazardous environment, leading to the requirement in 210.8(A)(6) for GFCI protection around a kitchen sink. See Exhibit 210.13 and Exhibit 210.26. The requirement is intended for receptacles serving the countertop. Receptacles installed for disposals, dishwashers, and trash compactors are not required to be protected by GFCIs. A receptacle(s) installed behind a refrigerator is installed to supply that appliance, not the countertop, and is not covered by this GFCI requirement. According to 406.4(E), receptacles installed to serve countertops cannot be installed in the countertop in the face-up position because liquid, dirt, and other foreign material can enter the receptacle.

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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets gfci protected

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    hey all

    a chapter meeting tonight and i stated that garage door opener outlets had to be gfci protected and got booed out of the room. does NEC 210.8 {a} {2} cover this.want to boo back but louder. do i have the right code section

    charlie

    Hello Charlie,

    The requirement for the receptacle to be GFCI protected applies to areas that have adopted the 2008 code and construction / remodeling under that code. It does not apply to existing conditions.

    Garage door receptacle outlets do not have to be GFCI protected on exisitng dwellings.

    Sincerely,

    Corey

    Corey


  7. #7
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets gfci protected

    The requirement for the receptacle to be GFCI protected applies to areas that have adopted the 2008 code and construction / remodeling under that code. It does not apply to existing conditions.

    Garage door receptacle outlets do not have to be GFCI protected on exisitng dwellings.
    CF: That is, of course, unless you live in Texas.


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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets GFCI protected

    Quote Originally Posted by Corey Friedman View Post
    Hello Charlie,

    The requirement for the receptacle to be GFCI protected applies to areas that have adopted the 2008 code and construction / remodeling under that code. It does not apply to existing conditions.

    Garage door receptacle outlets do not have to be GFCI protected on exisitng dwellings.

    Sincerely,

    Corey

    Corey

    While the above is true, I doubt there are any home inspectors (not ones looking out for their clients) who, when inspecting a 1950 homes with two prong receptacle outlets in the bathrooms do not recommend that they be GFCI protected as those are required to be GFCI protected *now* (since 1975).

    And, GFCI protection is retroactive when the receptacle outlets are replaced, which means if a receptacle which requires GFCI protection in today's code is removed and replaced, that receptacle outlet now requires GFCI *even though GFCI protection was not required "back then" when it was installed*.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets gfci protected

    Quote Originally Posted by ken horak View Post
    Easy there Matt , Not ALL outlets in a kitchen are required to be GFCI.
    Only receptacles that SERVE Countertops - Like it has been for a while now.
    Article 210.8(A)(6) Kitchens - where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces.
    What do they call the parts of a kitchen without counter tops? The dining room .... just kidding, I couldn't resist.

    Serioulsy, didn't the previous exception for refrigerators in kitchens go away too? Meaning, they have to be GFI protected as of 08? I may be confusing the change with refrigerators in garages.


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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets gfci protected

    The general rule for kitchen GFCIs is that if a receptacle serves a counter top it needs to be GFCI protected. Most AHJs will require that a receptacle within 2 feet of the counter top end (hold a tape on the counter end and sweep an arc with it - a receptacle within the arc qualifies as serving the counter top) be GFCI protected. This usually eliminates the refrigerator receptacle from the requirement. The receptacles for disposers, dishwashers, and other under counter appliance that don't serve the counter top don't require GFCI protection. Neither do any wall receptacles in the kitchen beyond the scope of the counter area or those in cabinets for built in microwaves. Note the 6 foot rule does not apply in a kitchen, so wall receptacle within 6 feet of the sink doesn't require GFCI protection.


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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets GFCI protected

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    Most AHJs will require that a receptacle within 2 feet of the counter top end (hold a tape on the counter end and sweep an arc with it - a receptacle within the arc qualifies as serving the counter top) be GFCI protected.
    I've never heard of that, and that goes against what is implied in the code.

    This usually eliminates the refrigerator receptacle from the requirement.
    Actually, that would INCLUDE almost ALL receptacle outlets for refrigerators as very few refrigerators are over 4' wide, and the receptacles for the refrigerators are not always up that high.

    Besides, if one were to apply that 2' arc thingy, one should really apply it as 12" (similar to below the countertop, only it is beyond horizontally the end of the countertop instead of vertically down below the countertop), and the allowable height is 20" high above the countertop, making the dimension 12" out, 12" down, and 20" up.

    Or, one could elect to use 24" *from the nearest countertop serving receptacle* as no area is to be more than 24" from a countertop serving receptacle, meaning that if there was a receptacle placed 6" in from the end of the countertop the 'countertop space' that receptacle would be allowed to serve could extend out beyond the end of the countertop by 18", but that would not include a receptacle located out beyond the end of the countertop as the end of the countertop is already (is *supposed to* already) be served by a receptacle located within 24" of the end.

    Confusing? Sound like that is running around in circles? Yes, that is because it was chasing its own tail trying to figure out where, and why, AHJ would every think or consider stretching the GFCI to include an arc as you describe - maybe you can explain it to where I will grasp the logic behind it???

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  12. #12
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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets gfci protected

    and .... O8 wants it to be tamper resistant. That's what the NEC says.

    Please note that you did not ask if I agree with this change.

    I'd also like to remind all that codes are not in any way 'retro-active.' Thus, the o8 isn't code until it had been adopted locally, AND work is performed after adoption.


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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets gfci protected

    Jerry. Pretty simple. The code says that receptacles that serve the counter top have to be GFCI protected. And, the rules say that no place on the counter top can be more than 2 feet from a receptacle (with some exceptions). So, it would follow that a receptacle not over the counter but immediately adjacent to the end of the counter would qualify as serving the counter top. The reasoning here is that something like a toaster with a 2 foot cord could be plugged into a receptacle 12 inches beyond the end of the counter top - this receptacle serves the counter top.

    By your apparent reasoning here I can install a receptacle in the counter top area (in addition to those with the required spacing) and insist that it is for a vacuum cleaner (and therefore isn't installed to serve the counter top) and not GFCI protect it.

    Probably the bigger issue here is that we have a guy here that would argue that a receptacle over a counter top should be GFCI protected and is a major safety concern if it isn't (and he'd be right) and the same guy is arguing that one 6 inches beyond the counter top doesn't need to be GFCI protected because it wasn't installed to serve the counter top.


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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets GFCI protected

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    Jerry. Pretty simple. The code says that receptacles that serve the counter top have to be GFCI protected. And, the rules say that no place on the counter top can be more than 2 feet from a receptacle (with some exceptions). So, it would follow that a receptacle not over the counter but immediately adjacent to the end of the counter would qualify as serving the counter top.
    Not with another receptacle within 2 feet of the end of the countertop, and another receptacle is required within that 2 feet, so, if the receptacles are installed according to code, which states (I'll use your words here and just add highlighting) "that no place on the counter top" "be more than 2 feet from a receptacle (with some exceptions)" and now I will add the code requirement (with my highlighting)"210.8(A)(6) Kitchens where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces", i.e., "where" they "are installed to serve" the countertop, not where they are installed for some other reason and are being used to serve the countertop, and "210.52(C) (1) Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space." and "(5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above, the countertop. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, sinks, or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1), Exception, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as these required outlets." and "Exception to (5): To comply with the conditions specified in (1) or (2), receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop. Receptacles mounted below a countertop in accordance with this exception shall not be located where the countertop extends more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond its support base."

    Now ... *IF* ... *IF, and that is a real big *IF*, there was no receptacle within 2 feet ALONG the countertop but there was a receptacle within 2 feet of the end of the countertop, maybe, just maybe (however highly unlikely it may be) - maybe - one could convince me that would have been "installed to serve" the countertop, however, I know of NO AHJ which would not require a receptacle outlet ALONG the countertop within 2 feet of the countertop, making that receptacle installed to one side of the countertop not being included in the GFCI protection. Convince me, but so far you have not even come close to saying anything which would make sense in that direction.

    The reasoning here is that something like a toaster with a 2 foot cord could be plugged into a receptacle 12 inches beyond the end of the counter top - this receptacle serves the counter top.
    Likewise, someone COULD plug an extension cord into the receptacle in the other room and plug the toaster into that extension cord ... so we should required ALL receptacles within the dwelling to be GFCI protected because "someone could"?

    By your apparent reasoning here I can install a receptacle in the counter top area (in addition to those with the required spacing) and insist that it is for a vacuum cleaner (and therefore isn't installed to serve the counter top) and not GFCI protect it.
    Nope, because it is installed ALONG the countertop and therefore is presumed to be there to serve what it is along - the countertop.

    Probably the bigger issue here is that we have a guy here that would argue that a receptacle over a counter top should be GFCI protected and is a major safety concern if it isn't (and he'd be right) and the same guy is arguing that one 6 inches beyond the counter top doesn't need to be GFCI protected because it wasn't installed to serve the counter top.
    And he would be right there too ... AS LONG AS there was a receptacle ALONG the countertop within 2 feet of the end of the countertop.

    If you had a receptacle installed 3 feet above the countertop, would you require that to be GFCI protected?

    Or would you require that receptacle, or another receptacle, to be located WHERE REQUIRED?

    You are losing sight of the fact that the NEC, along with ALL codes, is a MINIMUM document. It does not, cannot, try to predict and cover every single STUPID thing people can come up with.

    Do I believe in GFCI protection? Yep. Do I also believe in convenience? Yep. EVERY receptacle outlet along my countertop is a GFCI receptacle DEVICE, none are fed-through, each one, and only that one, will trip if THAT ONE needs to. My bathroom is the same - our vanity is 5'11" long, and there is a receptacle outlet at the left end and another receptacle outlet at the right end and EACH ONE is a GFCI receptacle DEVICE, no need to reach over and reset another one, if it is to trip it will trip right there.

    The same with EVERY exterior receptacle outlet, EVERY receptacle outlet in my garage, and BOTH receptacle outlets on our porch - EACH ONE is a GFCI receptacle DEVICE and will trip right there and only right there.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  15. #15
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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets gfci protected

    JP: The poorly chosen phrase, "installed to serve", needs to be changed. This indicates intent that cannot be ascertained. Suppose that the designer calls for a receptacle at counter top level but does not intend for it to be used for counter top appliances. The unfortunate wording, like much of the IRC wording, needs to be revamped. One cannot have a truly prescriptive model code with such ambiguous verbiage.

    I often inspect homes where the kitchen peninsula, outrigger, or island countertops have receptacles installed below the counter top level, but within reach of the cords of many appliances that will be used on the counter top. The builders claim that these outlets are not "intended" to be used to power appliances on the counter tops. When they can so easily be used that way, what difference does it make what the builder's or designer's intention is? Is it not more important what they will most likely be utilized for?


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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets GFCI protected

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    JP: The poorly chosen phrase, "installed to serve", needs to be changed.

    Aaron,

    That I fully agree with. Make it read "to serve the countertop and/or located within 4 feet of the space between a countertop surface and the underside of the cabinets above" as that would include not only appliances on the countertop but appliances installed on the underside of the cabinets, and would go out twice the distance of most appliance cords in ANY DIRECTION from the 18 inch high (typically 18 inches high) space between the countertop and the bottom of the cabinets above.

    That would include any receptacle "intended" to serve the countertop as well as any receptacle "within" that defined space. Would that include refrigerator receptacles too? Yep, most likely, but refrigerators have been made to the more stringent leakage standard for nearly 20 years now so they should not be causing any "nuisance" tripping as if they trip the GFCI that means something ain't right.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  17. #17
    Tyler Durden's Avatar
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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets gfci protected

    In regards to GFCI protection for any refrigerator, please keep in mind, they do not work with GFCIs because when the compressor kicks on it causes a ground fault to occur, only about a millivolt, but all refrigerators and gas appliances do this. It will trip the GFCI every time it is used. It would stand to reason that the code would not apply to major appliances of this type because they do not work properly with them.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets gfci protected

    Good lord. Not this again.

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets GFCI protected

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Durden View Post
    In regards to GFCI protection for any refrigerator, please keep in mind, they do not work with GFCIs because when the compressor kicks on it causes a ground fault to occur, only about a millivolt, but all refrigerators and gas appliances do this. It will trip the GFCI every time it is used.
    Those appliances HAD BETTER NOT TRIP THE GFCI ... THAT WOULD MEAN THE APPLIANCE WAS DEFECTIVE and the appliance needs to be replaced. That is something that you should write up when you find it. And if it happens "every time", then you might as well put that comment in your report as a built-in defect comment, saves typing it for EVERY inspection.

    There is NO PROBLEM with putting an appliance on a GFCI protected receptacle.

    I repeat ... THERE IS NO PROBLEM ... having GFCI protection for appliances.

    If the GFCI trips, there is a problem with the appliance.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: garage door opener outlets gfci protected

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Durden View Post
    In regards to GFCI protection for any refrigerator, please keep in mind, they do not work with GFCIs because when the compressor kicks on it causes a ground fault to occur, only about a millivolt, but all refrigerators and gas appliances do this. It will trip the GFCI every time it is used. It would stand to reason that the code would not apply to major appliances of this type because they do not work properly with them.
    The UL allowable leakage is about 1/10th of the level a Class A GFI is set to trip at. It would help greatly if people would stop perpetuating the motors and GFIs do not play well together.

    BTW, refrigerators in commercial ktichens have required GFI protection for the last one or two code cycles.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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