Thread: 2 circuits one breaker

Single family home built in 07. This is the distribution panel, in the master bedroom. The panel is messy (paint inside also)but you can see how they ran one wire out of the breaker and spliced it, creating two circuits. I call this out, but today the sparky said it's fine.

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Sparky is right.

Originally Posted by mathew stouffer

but you can see how they ran one wire out of the breaker and spliced it, creating two circuits. I call this out, but today the sparky said it's fine.

If it is on one breaker it is one circuit.

Pigtailing two conductors like this is commonly done when the breaker is not listed to accept two conductors.

The electrician is correct.

Ditto to the above answers.

One circuit.

That's how you fix multiple tapping - connect them together with a wire nut and now you only have one conductor going to the breaker.

Thanks. I told him the panel was messy and he was not too happy

Originally Posted by mathew stouffer

Thanks. I told him the panel was messy and he was not too happy

Actually the panel is not one that makes you cringe .....

I wonder what they intend to do with the orange 10 awg nm cable that is not terminated?

I hate it when I see the interior of a panel spray painted with wall paint ....

Can I have a free lesson here?

What is the identifying feature on a breaker that would tell me it is acceptable to have two conductors?

Is there any condition where the pigtail is not acceptable?

If you can't identify what the pigtail or even double tapped circuit covers, do you write that up as a concern; that it may not be safe or correct. For example: a microwave oven and dishwasher pigtailed or double tapped, whether you can clearly see it, or in theory.

Thanks for the info!

Originally Posted by Peter Drougas

Can I have a free lesson here?

What is the identifying feature on a breaker that would tell me it is acceptable to have two conductors?

Is there any condition where the pigtail is not acceptable?

If you can't identify what the pigtail or even double tapped circuit covers, do you write that up as a concern; that it may not be safe or correct. For example: a microwave oven and dishwasher pigtailed or double tapped, whether you can clearly see it, or in theory.

Thanks for the info!

I'll answer one of your questions. If the breakers can accept two conductors, it should be listed on the breaker. However, in a home inspection, we don't normally pull breakers out to look for such info. One way to familiarize yourself with different types is to go to big box, hardware, electrical supplier stores and pick up different pieces to see whats written on them.

Here's an example of info on a Square-D identifying it as able to accept two conductors.

I agree - splicing is allowed. However, shouldn't the pigtail wire be larger (AWG) than the circuit wires? In the case of two #14 wires, the pigtail would calculate to #11 but #10 is the next large standard size.

Roger,
I think it is for heat tape along the roof.

Originally Posted by Roger Frazee

Actually the panel is not one that makes you cringe .....

I wonder what they intend to do with the orange 10 awg nm cable that is not terminated?

I hate it when I see the interior of a panel spray painted with wall paint ....

Paint isn't supposed to be there. I don't usually speak code but I'm pretty sure it is not allowed at least as per 2008 NEC - Jerry?

Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks

I agree - splicing is allowed. However, shouldn't the pigtail wire be larger (AWG) than the circuit wires? In the case of two #14 wires, the pigtail would calculate to #11 but #10 is the next large standard size.

Why? The breaker limits the circuit capacity. And, in the case of #14 the breaker size is limited to 15 AMPs, not the 30 AMPs a #10 pigtail would imply.

More often than not splicing circuits in a panel is no different than extending a circuit at the other end by adding another receptacle or two. The NEC places no limits on the number of receptacles on a circuit, only the loads applied.

The real problem here is when required circuits, like bathroom, laundry, and small appliance wind up getting combined with other circuits.

Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh

Why? The breaker limits the circuit capacity. And, in the case of #14 the breaker size is limited to 15 AMPs, not the 30 AMPs a #10 pigtail would imply.

More often than not splicing circuits in a panel is no different than extending a circuit at the other end by adding another receptacle or two. The NEC places no limits on the number of receptacles on a circuit, only the loads applied.

The real problem here is when required circuits, like bathroom, laundry, and small appliance wind up getting combined with other circuits.

I have to agree - And I would think it would be a good place to check for an over-amped breaker stuck into to compensate.

Is that an aluminum wire used for the neutral bar? It looks like they have not placed all of the conductor under the terminal either.

As far as I know Sq. D is the only mfr. that has breakers listed for two terminations [things change, I could be wrong].

In this photo [hopefully it is clear enough] you can see how the termination lug for the Sq. D breaker is designed for two conductors.

This is covered by NEC 110.14(A).

The use of the term 'tap' as applied to actual splices is a misnomer and suggests a very different type of connection. Connecting multiple wires together, all the same size, is simply a splice.

The subject of taps is covered in Art. 240 under section 240.21 and covers a multitude of approved scenarios.

A tap as defined in section 240.2 is: "...a tap conductor is defined as a conductor, other than a service conductor, that has overcurrent protection ahead of its point of supply that exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors that are protected as described elsewhere in 240.4."

Not real clear is it?

Here is a photo of a tap.

Smaller conductors are connected to larger conductors; the larger conductors are protected by an overcurrent device sized correctly.

The smaller conductors are undersized for the over current device ahead of them; this is permitted if the applicable rules of NEC 240.21 are followed.

It could be argued that the connection of all these conductors is a violation of section 110.14(A). In the trade this connection is sometimes called a 'monkey fist'...all the conductors are under one split bolt [kearney].

Mathew,
You should tell him to replace the panel. If I inspect it when they are selling it I will write it up.

NEC 2005

110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work. Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner.

A) Unused openings
B) Subsurface Enclosures
C) Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections.
Internal parts of electrical equipment, including busbars, wiring terminals,
insulators, and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleansers, abrasives or corrosive residues. There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken, bent, cut; or deteriorated by corrosion, chemical
action, or overheating.


2003 IRC
E3304.6 Integrity of electrical equipment.

As above with this added…….Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment.

Originally Posted by Stuart Brooks

I agree - splicing is allowed. However, shouldn't the pigtail wire be larger (AWG) than the circuit wires? In the case of two #14 wires, the pigtail would calculate to #11 but #10 is the next large standard size.

No need to. The only thing which is needed is that *all* the conductors be at least as large as necessary for the breaker rating.

I.e., a 15 amp breaker will protect a #14 AWG conductor going to 2 other #14 AWG conductors just as readily as it would protect those other 2 if multiple tapped into the terminal - protection would still be at 15 amps. Using a #12 AWG conductor from the 2 #14 AWG to the breaker does not allow for the breaker size to be increased, and there is only going to be 15 amps through the #14 conductor off a 15 amp breaker, regardless how many wires it is connected to.

Originally Posted by David Newton

It could be argued that the connection of all these conductors is a violation of section 110.14(A).

The better way to state that is that if the connector device (split bolt if that is what it is) is not rated for the number and size of conductors ... then one could try to argue that the connection was not in violation of 110.14(A) ... but we all know that *it would be in violation* if the connector is not rated for the number and size of conductors in the connector.

Originally Posted by Gary Burnett

As above with this added…….Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment.

I would never state that ... ... as someone will try and follow YOUR advice, and that could come back to haunt you ...

Instead, it is better to state that contaminates are not allowed (they are not) and that there is no approved way to remove the contaminates (there is not) and thus the panel interior needs to be replaced - and the enclosure too most likely.

JP

I don't state that. The IRC states that. I don't quote or copy code in my reports anyway. I just say it's not allowed by code and needs to be replaced.
And it seems like I get to say it alot around here in homes built before 1990.

Originally Posted by Gary Burnett

2003 IRC
E3304.6 Integrity of electrical equipment.

As above with this added…….Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment.

Originally Posted by Gary Burnett

I don't state that. The IRC states that.

Does not state that as you stated ... i.e., it does not stand alone, it needs the rest of the section to be read and applied with it:
- From the 2006 IRC. (bold and underlining are mine)
- - E3304.6 Integrity of electrical equipment. Internal parts of electrical equipment, including busbars, wiring terminals, insulators and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners or abrasives, and corrosive residues. There shall not be any damaged parts that might adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating. Foreign debris shall be removed from equipment.

With the acknowledgment of the "shall not be" part, the last sentence does not give permission to 'just clean the foreign debris off' as the last sentence would be taken were it used as you did - standing alone without the qualifier in front of what is not allowed.

Using that by itself is like taking this: In the firing squad all members must be fully prepared for the ultimate result, they must be prepared to shoot to kill. Yes, shoot to kill.

Then telling someone "Yes, shoot to kill." without giving the context in which it applies.

I'm not an electrician but I don't see any differance between a double tapped breaker weather its at the lug or up the line. I have no idea what loads these circuit have. Im recomending a licensed electricain examine this configuration. We just lost a house in Hendeson last week from a fire starting in the panel with double tabbed breakers.


Las Vegas

Question, are these splices on the pigtails of the AFCI grounds?

Originally Posted by John Sullivan

I'm not an electrician but I don't see any differance between a double tapped breaker weather its at the lug or up the line.

Not following what you are saying, so I will explain the difference to try to cover what you might be thinking.

a) A multiple tapped terminal in not safe as it was not tested for two or more conductors and therefore is PRESUMED to not be safe as all the known facts and logic indicate that - only by testing a given specific terminal can it be shown otherwise.

b) A multiple tapped terminal designed and tested for two or more conductors IS NOT multiple as the terminal is actually multiple terminals in one, therefore it is not multiple tapped and is considered safe.

c) If you are referring to wire connectors "or up the line" they are safe as they have been tested and shown to be safe for the purpose, thus they are not multiple tapped terminals, they are connectors designed for that very use.

Note: When I use the term "safe" in the above I am using it presuming, for example, the connectors are used within their listing, i.e., within the limitations of wire combinations allowable for that connector (such as a wire nut with the allowable number of allowable sizes of conductors) - I *am not* referring to the use of terminals or connectors which are being used outside what they were tested and listed for.

Thanks for the feedback Mr. Peck, but once again I'm a licensed property inspector, not an electrician or a code inspector, if I see spliced wires with or without wire nuts especially with different gage wires in a panel which appear to be from two circuits to a single or a single lug side of a dual or piggy back circuit breaker, and not a GFCI or AFCI ground, I'm going to write it up and put the responsibility of the explanation on a licensed electrician. I don't know who tested this circuit or what the total amp draw of the two circuits is. I would rather be overly cautious than be called back for somthing that may not be safe. The only double tapped breakers I don't report on are older panels that have the door bell tranformers sitting in the main panel.

Have a great wekend

The first thing that noted is that the service and ground bars need to cleaned. You may need to replace the panel because the bars are not capable of being cleaned without damage to their respective protective finishes. A good sparky may be able to clean them without damage. It is probably a water based paint that may have gotten down into the physical connections creating a corrosive situation.

The panel is too small. Zero growth. I am speculating that additional legs were run thus necessitating the splicing of two runs into one to connect to respective breakers. I think that I would like to look at the number of total devices on the combined legs.

I agree with the comment of sloppy workmanship. Why didn't the sparky move the connections to a less congested area of the panel, and then make the single lead to the breaker a tad longer?

Originally Posted by John Sullivan

Thanks for the feedback Mr. Peck, but once again I'm a licensed property inspector, not an electrician or a code inspector,

John,

To be a GOOD "property inspector" one does not need to be an electrician or a code inspector, but, one DOES need a good understanding of what is right and what is not, and to NOT WRITE UP things which are right as that only confuses matters when you write up things which are not right.

To blindly say you will write up what has been pointed out and explained as not being wrong is not being a good home inspector and is not acting in the best interests of your client.

Originally Posted by John Sullivan

Thanks for the feedback Mr. Peck, but once again I'm a licensed property inspector, not an electrician or a code inspector, if I see spliced wires with or without wire nuts especially with different gage wires in a panel which appear to be from two circuits to a single or a single lug side of a dual or piggy back circuit breaker, and not a GFCI or AFCI ground, I'm going to write it up and put the responsibility of the explanation on a licensed electrician. I don't know who tested this circuit or what the total amp draw of the two circuits is. I would rather be overly cautious than be called back for somthing that may not be safe. The only double tapped breakers I don't report on are older panels that have the door bell tranformers sitting in the main panel.

Have a great wekend

John, how do you know what the loads are on any of the circuits in the panel? In many residences well over half of the receptacles are behind beds and other furnature and never see more load than a bedside lamp or electric blanket, if anything. Turning on all the bedroom loads on in a residence usually wouldn't load up a circuit to its' max, and this is normally spread over several circuits. On the other hand, 2 blow driers in adjacent rooms on the same circuit are almost guaranteed to trip a breaker. Which, I suppose, is part of the point. If the breaker that has 2 circuits pigtailed to it is overloaded the breaker will trip. If not, it won't. Same thing is true if the breaker doesn't have pigtailed wires. It could be the same load on either breaker that does this. At some point in the process you have to trust the equipment to do its' job.

We are, of course, assuming that you dont have any #14 wire pigtailed to a 20 AMP or larger breaker.

If you have one of the questionable panels all bets are off because a different problem exists.