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  1. #66
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    While at the last inspection, I mentioned to the carpenter the doors covered the light switches. His response was "it is the same way in my house." I also pointed out he recieved the correct doors, they were just installed in the wrong bedrooms.

    Perfomed another draw inspection this morning. The carpenter swapped the doors and the light switches are no longer blocked or inaccessible.

    Thanks for all the spirited debate. All it took was to mention the error to the carpenter and investor. Things got better.
    Glad to hear it got corrected. Thanks for the update.

    IIRC the language for the switched controlled lighting outlet got changed back in the late 80s. It read differently prior. Changing the swing on a door as mentioned can have consequences other than the ability to locate and operate a wall swich - primary exit path for example - can be compromised, as mentioned previously.

    Inspection Referral

  2. #67
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Aaron's droning on is so he does not have to acknowledge that he screwed up and was incorrect.
    JP: Actually, it is your seeming inability to grasp the idea that not everyone interprets English in the Flahidian fashion that is the problem. Should you find yourself able to make a convincing argument, you might find me supporting your rather odd notions on this subject. Until then, I am simply professing to understand that installing light switches behind doors is (1) counterintuitive, (2) unnecessary, (3) illogical, (4) inconvenient, (5) potentially unsafe, and (6) not code-compliant; just like your argument supporting this sort of installation.


  3. #68
    Michael Garrity's Avatar
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Jim Port,forget about sensors.If you want to use a device other than a regular light switch to operate the room light,then that device should be where a switch should normally be.In its customary location.
    If it's the custom in Maryland to have the light switch on the ceiling then that is where you would put the replacement device.


  4. #69
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    AD,

    I don't think too many here wouldn't agree that the switches could be placed in a more convenient and logical location. However, your contention that there is some Code mandate requiring them to be located there does not hold water. You are wrong, get over it.

    It is not Jerrys Flahidian interpretation of what is written. It is what the words actually say. Just because it does not say what you want it to does not make it against the Code.

    Perhaps you don't like tradespeople because they have a better understanding of what the codes actually require?


  5. #70
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Perhaps you don't like tradespeople because they have a better understanding of what the codes actually require?
    JP: I never said I did not like tradesmen. That is your contention that you have managed to pull directly out of a dark place situated between your lower cheeks.

    What I do not care for is tradesmen, building officials, or anyone else who expends great amounts of effort in an attempt to interpret something in the code so that it supports old, tired, outdated ideas and flies in the face of the spirit of the code.


  6. #71
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    What I do not care for is tradesmen, building officials, or anyone else who expends great amounts of effort in an attempt to interpret something in the code so that it supports old, tired, outdated ideas and flies in the face of the spirit of the code.
    The difference between the above and what you are trying to pull is that the rules are in black and white and can be enforced. Yours are just wishes.

    If you don't like the rules you are free to submit a proposal to have the rules change. However, and I repeat again, the Code clearly tells you it is not a design manual. Your chances of getting this through are probably less than a snowball in that warm place.


  7. #72
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    The difference between the above and what you are trying to pull is that the rules are in black and white and can be enforced. Yours are just wishes.
    JP: That's where we will just have to agree to disagree. You and the other JP have yet to mount a convincing argument.

    the Code clearly tells you it is not a design manual.
    JP: The possibility of someone being injured from an asinine installation such as this is great. The code states:

    90.1 Purpose.
    (A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.


    (B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.

    So then, the authors have stated their purpose and that is to safeguard persons and property. Only then do they arrive at the statement you refer to:

    (C) Intention. This Code is not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual for untrained persons.

    While you may think that they have conveyed the message that unsafe locations of switches is somehow a "design specification", I find no support in the code for that statement. Neither do you.

    It is expressly stated in no uncertain terms that the intent (purpose) of the code authors to protect life and limb. Placement of switches behind doors does not serve that purpose. It is in direct contravention of the intent and purpose of the code. Any other reading is erroneous and made by those with a lack of understanding and merely for the sake of attempting to support an unsupportable argument.


  8. #73
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by ken horak View Post
    Based on the ORIGINAL post ...
    The electrician did not screw up, the Carpenter did. Make him put the correct doors in the correct locations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    The carpenter swapped the doors and the light switches are no longer blocked or inaccessible.
    .
    WOW ! A simple problem with a simple solution, yet the banter continues. Many good points brought up but I can't help but wonder how some of you get through an inspection with this much debate over such a simple concern.

    IMHO of course

    Joe Klampfer RHI
    www.myinspection.ca
    Pacific Home Inspections

  9. #74
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    AD.

    Switches behind the door are no less safe than beside the door or outside the room they serve. They may be less convenient, but not less safe. This would satisfy 90.1(A).

    90.1 Purpose.
    (A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

    90.1(B) clearly leaves out convenience and efficiency.

    (B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance results in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.

    As has been discussed many times intent cannot be enforced. Only what is written. Years ago, GFI protection was only required on surfaces with grade level access. Did this mean that a exterior receptacle without GFI protection on a second floor was safer? I doubt it. Could the GFI protection be required, NO as there was no requirement for it.

    The possibility of someone being injured from an asinine installation such as this is great
    Maybe we should leave out doors as someone could walk into a closed door or get it slammed in their face during an argument. Maybe we should ban steps as someone could fall down them. Maybe we should ban electric in the house to prevent the misuse something so dangerous. Ban heating equipment that uses flammable gases to prevent fires too.

    That's where we will just have to agree to disagree. You and the other JP have yet to mount a convincing argument.
    You are reaching, and have yet to show a direct quote of any NEC requirement for the switches to be located in the room served and on the knob side. Myself and Mr. Peck, and others, have told you that you are incorrect. This has been backed up with direct quotes of the Article.

    Your assertion that this is not a design issue is not backed up in any of your posts. If this was so dangerous it would have been spelled out clearly like the workspace requirements in Article 110, or any other numerous locations. In another example exterior doors are required to have illumination. Typically this is installed next to the door. This is not required either. It could be a floodlight simply aimed at the door. Again this is a design issue.


  10. #75
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Mr. Port:

    As you continue to find safe harbor in your ignorance of the facts, I cannot justify spending more time on this discussion.


  11. #76
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    As you continue to find safe harbor in your ignorance of the facts, I cannot justify spending more time on this discussion.

    Aaron,

    "I cannot justify spending more time on this discussion", very good as that will now give you the opportunity to step back from "the discussion" and read and comprehend was has been stated ... many times over ... that the question was one regarding "code" and not "design", thus no matter how many times you want to say that it is not a safe, logical, whatever "design" the answer remains that "code" does not require the switch to be in the same room with the light.

    Again, I am glad that you are finally taking time out from discussing this to ponder and absorb what has been stated.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #77
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Mr. Port:

    As you continue to find safe harbor in your ignorance of the facts, I cannot justify spending more time on this discussion.
    Good, since trying to sway me against the printed word in the NEC won't work. You have been shown the facts, yet refuse to read and understand them. I told the OP back in post #4 that there was no NEC issue with the switches behind the door. . I can and have justified my statements quoting the NEC verbatim. I don't consider this as ignorance of the facts. I am sorry to see that you remain too myoptic to see your errors.

    Perhaps you could write your own code and include in all the design issues the NFPA does not feel are necessary.


  13. #78
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    but the code does say the switch should be in the customary location.It only means one thing.So get over it.Even the average high school student knows what customary location means.In fact my even dog knows what customary location means.But then again he is smarter than the average home inspector.
    Good night


  14. #79

    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Maybe somebody already addressed this; but as far as I know home inspectors don't inspect based on code anyway. That's the jurisdiction of the local building authority. I would just state that it is not customary and will be an inconvenience.

    Brent Lerwill, Coos Bay, Oregon

  15. #80
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    but the code does say the switch should be in the customary location.It only means one thing.So get over it.Even the average high school student knows what customary location means.In fact my even dog knows what customary location means.But then again he is smarter than the average home inspector.
    Good night
    Well my dog can't type better than you, but my fifth grader certainly knows that spaces are required between sentences.

    I am also sorry that you feel that the HI industry that you are part of suffers such a lack of intelligence. But the lack of understanding of some in this thread could certainly make one wonder.

    Customary is different than a mandated location. That has been the sticking point that both yourself and ADM have ignored throughout this entire thread. That Exception is also dealing with occupancy sensors, not regular toggle switches. You were also given the reason for this which you may or may not have understood.


  16. #81
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    A man with a white stick could type better than me.Your the only person to mention "mandated location".Did anyone mention mandated?
    If you want to nit pick on grammar or spelling go ahead.Just brush up on your comprehension skills first.
    Again.If you want to replace a light switch with another device,ok the code book does mention sensors,then that device must be placed where the light switch would normally be.As is the custom and customs can vary from place to place.
    Customary location = where the light switch would normally be.
    Nothing said about being mandated.
    But it does give us an idea of where to put it.The light switch of course.
    Is that so difficult to understand?
    Maybe it is difficult to understand?
    Send my report card to my usual address.
    It's time for me to drop out.


  17. #82
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    I am also sorry that you feel that the HI industry that you are part of suffers such a lack of intelligence. But the lack of understanding of some in this thread could certainly make one wonder.
    JP: From the horse's mouth.


  18. #83
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    but the code does say the switch should be in the customary location.It only means one thing.So get over it.Even the average high school student knows what customary location means.In fact my even dog knows what customary location means.But then again he is smarter than the average home inspector.
    Good night

    Michael,You really need to:a)learn to read;b)learn to understand what you read;c)learn to accept what you cannot learn to read or understand.The code DOES NOT say that the switch needs to be in a customary location.The code only states that the sensor needs to be in the location where the switch would customarily be located - which is "anywhere" the designers/owners/etc., wanted the switch to be located.Additionally, the code does not, nor does anything else, define what and where a customary location is.To refresh your memory for you - THE SENSOR is to be located where the switch would customarily be located.Hopefully you can wrap your head around that idea and, as you said "It only means one thing." - yeppers, it means THE SENSOR is to be located where the switch would customarily be located.You then added "So get over it.", which would be excellent advice you should follow.You also added "Even the average high school student knows what customary location means.", are you stating that you do not understand as much as the average high school student?After all, you are stating that the average high school student would understand that the code is saying the THE SENSOR needs to be installed where the switch would be customarily installed, that the switch itself is not being referred to as having a customary location within the room.

    Maybe Aaron has not picked up on the above either? I thought for sure that someone as smart as Aaron would have picked that up long before I had to point it out to him - maybe I was wrong and I simply should have pointed that out to him sooner?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  19. #84
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Maybe Aaron has not picked up on the above either? I thought for sure that someone as smart as Aaron would have picked that up long before I had to point it out to him - maybe I was wrong and I simply should have pointed that out to him sooner?
    JP: Due primarily to the fact that you "live" in Flahdah, I understand the handicap that accrues, and am doing my dead level best to remain civil with you and your shadow - the other JP. Kindly leave me out of the remainder of this discussion and I will continue in this vein.

    Otherwise . . .


  20. #85
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    JP: Due primarily to the fact that you "live" in Flahdah, I understand the handicap that accrues,

    Just because some people here cannot count ballots and figure out what "chads" are and what the intent is of a punched hole, with a "hanging chad" or not, ... or fail to understand that "butterflies" and "ballots" do not go together very well, ... does not mean that all residents of Florida are incapable of reading, writing, counting, and understanding what is written and why it is written.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  21. #86
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch




  22. #87
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    The customary location is where it is the custom to place the switch.Here in NY it would be the custom to place the switch in the room where the light is.
    A sensor with a manual override would be replacing the light switch which would be in the customary location.
    Don't think too much about the sensor,think light switch at a customary location.
    This thread has been the funniest yet.
    I'll be back after some more yard work.
    I


  23. #88
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    The customary location is where it is the custom to place the switch.Here in NY it would be the custom to place the switch in the room where the light is.
    A sensor with a manual override would be replacing the light switch which would be in the customary location.
    Don't think too much about the sensor,think light switch at a customary location.
    This thread has been the funniest yet.
    I'll be back after some more yard work.
    I
    Michael,

    I w-i-l-l s-p-e-a-k s-l-o-w-l-y f-o-r y-o-u.

    T-h-e c-o-d-e d-o-e-s n-o-t a-d-d-r-e-s-s t-h-e l-o-c-a-t-i-o-n o-f t-h-e s-w-i-t-c-h.

    The code allows (I do hope I am not going too fast for you) the switch to be located "wherever".

    "Wherever" any particular switch would be located, which is not required to be in the same room as the lighting outlet (are you still with me or am I going to fast?) and "wherever" *that* switch would normally ("customarily") be located for *that* particular installation, t-h-e s-e-n-s-o-r is allowed to be located at the location of where *that* particular switch would normally be located.

    If that switch was normally located in the hallway side of the wall and it operated the living room light, a sensor would be allowed to be installed at the same location as the switch *would have been installed*.

    Jeez, my 4 year old granddaughter understands things quicker than explaining this to you.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  24. #89
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Michael:

    Pay no attention to JP. It is, after all, the weekend. He is into his high and mighty thing . . . just go with it . . .




  25. #90
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post
    Michael:

    Pay no attention to JP. It is, after all, the weekend. He is into his high and mighty thing . . . just go with it . . .

    The man in the picture looks as though he has visited Jamaica


  26. #91
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    While at the last inspection, I mentioned to the carpenter the doors covered the light switches. His response was "it is the same way in my house." I also pointed out he recieved the correct doors, they were just installed in the wrong bedrooms.

    Perfomed another draw inspection this morning. The carpenter swapped the doors and the light switches are no longer blocked or inaccessible.

    Thanks for all the spirited debate. All it took was to mention the error to the carpenter and investor. Things got better.
    Bruce, I also liked the "spirited debate" and for a change, rather controlled!!!
    It seems to me that a less expensive "fix" would have been for the carpenter to by an occupancy sensor and put it at the switch location which would turn on the light when the door opened.

    Gary Bottomley
    Cadillac, Michigan

  27. #92
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    I think some of you would have been happier being lawyers or English teachers. Following JP logic, could I put cut off valves for water any where I wanted, say the kitchen sink water supply have the shut off valve in a hallway? The term 'switch controlled outlet' puts these in the same room. Once again, how many states require HIs to inspect to code? In KY, we are not lto inspect to code.


  28. #93
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    " Following JP logic, could I put cut off valves for water any where I wanted, say the kitchen sink water supply have the shut off valve in a hallway?"

    No, unless the fixture or manifold is located in the hallway.

    P2903.8.5 Valving.
    Fixture valves, when installed, shall be
    located either at the fixture or at the manifold. If valves are
    installed at the manifold, they shall be labeled indicating the

    fixture served.


    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  29. #94
    A.D. Miller's Avatar
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Following JP's "logic", I suppose that even this switch would need to be behind a door?




  30. #95
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Let me see if I got this straight. I could run all my water supply outlets from a central manifold located anywhere I wanted as long as I labeled them, hot kitchen sink, hot bath tub, cold water laundry....etc. In doing so I would not be violating any code, except the one on supreme stupidity.


  31. #96
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Gerry,I am so glad that you agree with me.If that switch is normally located in the hallway then it is in the customary position.Well done.


    "Wherever" any particular switch would be located, which is not required to be in the same room as the lighting outlet (are you still with me or am I going to fast?) and "wherever" *that* switch would normally ("customarily") be located for *that* particular installation, t-h-e s-e-n-s-o-r is allowed to be located at the location of where *that* particular switch would normally be located.

    If that switch was normally located in the hallway side of the wall and it operated the living room light, a sensor would be allowed to be installed at the same location as the switch *would have been installed*.


  32. #97
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Garrity View Post
    Gerry,I am so glad that you agree with me.If that switch is normally located in the hallway then it is in the customary position.Well done.


    "Wherever" any particular switch would be located, which is not required to be in the same room as the lighting outlet (are you still with me or am I going to fast?) and "wherever" *that* switch would normally ("customarily") be located for *that* particular installation, t-h-e s-e-n-s-o-r is allowed to be located at the location of where *that* particular switch would normally be located.

    If that switch was normally located in the hallway side of the wall and it operated the living room light, a sensor would be allowed to be installed at the same location as the switch *would have been installed*.
    You are getting closer MG, good job.

    A regular toggle type switch can be anywhere, not just the customary location. You could install them all at the front door if you liked, except for the exception that have been pointed out prior.

    However, if an occupancy sensor is used it needs to be installed in the customary location.

    Sorry to confuse you with my use of "mandated location". I simply meant that there was no code requirement as to the location.


  33. #98
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    "A regular toggle type switch can be anywhere, not just the customary location. You could install them all at the front door if you liked, except for the exception that have been pointed out prior.

    However, if an occupancy sensor is used it needs to be installed in the customary location.

    Sorry to confuse you with my use of "mandated location". I simply meant that there was no code requirement as to the location"


    you poor man,you really are confused.At least your good for a laugh.Keep posting.When I come back next week I might need a laugh so keep writing.Way too funny.
    See you on another thread.
    Sorry, can't stop laughing.Even my wife is laughing.


  34. #99
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    I have shown you numerous times and backed up my assertions with direct Code quotes and I am the one confused? Let me know the next itme you visit reality. You really should try it.

    Sorry that you have so little grasp of what what presented in several different ways to help you understand your misinterpretation of the actual NEC requirements.


  35. #100
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    I am the one confused?
    JP: Most assuredly.

    Let me know the next itme you visit reality. You really should try it.
    JP: I'll venture to say that some of us might no care too much for your "reality", such as it is.


  36. #101
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by A.D. Miller View Post

    JP: I'll venture to say that some of us might no care too much for your "reality", such as it is.
    Really nice to see such disregard for a national consensus code.

    Do you think making up your own rules would be as widely accepted? Could you justify your distorted interpretations if it came to a lawsuit?

    My realities are printed in black and white.


  37. #102
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Could someone tell me where I could find the thread on the light switch behind the door!

    Now that was funny. I don't care who you are


  38. #103
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    WoW, I've been away too long.....this is good stuff
    Unfortunately, Jerry is correct in all his posts in this thread, which means that there is not a specific requirements regarding switch locations except as obviously noted.
    I wish Jerry was incorrect in his interpretation as I would love to write this one (violation), if only I had a code leg to stand on-as it were.

    When I first started out as an AHJ, I wrote this only to find that: Just because I had installed switches in logical locations all these years, did not mean that the logical requirement was in the code as I had thought, ugg!

    Trust me when I say, 'I feel your pain'!
    Bob Smit, County EI


  39. #104
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by bob smit View Post
    WoW, I've been away too long.....this is good stuff
    Unfortunately, Jerry is correct in all his posts in this thread, which means that there is not a specific requirements regarding switch locations except as obviously noted.
    I wish Jerry was incorrect in his interpretation as I would love to write this one (violation), if only I had a code leg to stand on-as it were.

    When I first started out as an AHJ, I wrote this only to find that: Just because I had installed switches in logical locations all these years, did not mean that the logical requirement was in the code as I had thought, ugg!

    Trust me when I say, 'I feel your pain'!
    Bob Smit, County EI
    Thanks for the support and acknowledgement from yet another person Bob, but I doubt that it will change some peoples opinion. They are still looking for that NEC unicorn that doesn't exist.


  40. #105
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    What a long list of comments---codes flying everywhere. "Standards" aside, when you enter a dark room where do you reach to turn on the light? Next to the door. I believe this can be called a de facto standard and should be commented on by the inspector if the switch is not readily assessable next to the door, in or out of the room. In my wildest dreams I would not think of closing the door and then feeling around in the dark to find the switch.


  41. #106
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    What a long list of comments---codes flying everywhere. "Standards" aside, when you enter a dark room where do you reach to turn on the light? Next to the door. I believe this can be called a de facto standard and should be commented on by the inspector if the switch is not readily assessable next to the door, in or out of the room. In my wildest dreams I would not think of closing the door and then feeling around in the dark to find the switch.
    The code is not made to satisfy your wildest dreams or these imaginery 'de facto' standards.


  42. #107
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    I would not think of closing the door and then feeling around in the dark to find the switch.

    Which is why, at one time, many, if not most, light switches were located OUTSIDE the room ... so the light could be turned on BEFORE entering the room.

    Yes, that did create a problem once you were in the room, but ... that was a "customary" location for quite some time.

    "Customary" is based on "customs" and "customs" change. The code, which is what the original question was asking about (how many times have we had to take this back to that original question?), ... the code ... yes, "the code" ... *does not* require a switch to be in the same room as the light.

    We can all add our druthers, I'druther have 3-way and 4-way switches all over, heck, why not simply say '6' and the light you have designated as '6' turns on/off? Then say 'all' and they all turn on/off'. Heck, it would even be nice if I could be in another city and say 'Dang, I forgot to turn the outdoor front light on when I left this morning.', so I get on my cell phone and yell '11' and my outdoor light turns on.

    Now THAT would be "convenient", but the code does not address convenience.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  43. #108
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    "Heck, it would even be nice if I could be in another city and say 'Dang, I forgot to turn the outdoor front light on when I left this morning.', so I get on my cell phone and yell '11' and my outdoor light turns on."

    Hey, if you want that, I can do it.
    Well cept maybe for the "yell '11'" part.
    Whatta ya say?

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  44. #109
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Which is why, at one time, many, if not most, light switches were located OUTSIDE the room ... so the light could be turned on BEFORE entering the room.

    Yes, that did create a problem once you were in the room, but ... that was a "customary" location for quite some time.

    "Customary" is based on "customs" and "customs" change. The code, which is what the original question was asking about (how many times have we had to take this back to that original question?), ... the code ... yes, "the code" ... *does not* require a switch to be in the same room as the light.

    We can all add our druthers, I'druther have 3-way and 4-way switches all over, heck, why not simply say '6' and the light you have designated as '6' turns on/off? Then say 'all' and they all turn on/off'. Heck, it would even be nice if I could be in another city and say 'Dang, I forgot to turn the outdoor front light on when I left this morning.', so I get on my cell phone and yell '11' and my outdoor light turns on.

    Now THAT would be "convenient", but the code does not address convenience.
    Would you please turn off my mother's iron while you're on the phone? I'm sure my Dad would be grateful.

    The only reason some people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory.
    - Paul Fix

  45. #110
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by dana1028 View Post
    The code is not made to satisfy your wildest dreams or these imaginery 'de facto' standards.
    In my wildest dreams the installing wall switches next to the door is actually in practice, but not within the code, therefore the "imaginary" term 'de facto' applies. It indicates that it is being currently done, but is not in the code---thus a "de facto" standard. Sorry if you don't like the use of the term, but is applicable here. The codes try to cover all items related to health, safety, and quality of life, but obviously cannot encompass every detail. Therefore "de facto" or "customary" "standards may be applied, such as placing the switch next to the door, in or out---not behind the door.

    If you still feel that this is not correct, then could you explain without being so snippy why switches are next to the door in a room, and not behind?


  46. #111
    dana1028's Avatar
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Goeken View Post
    Therefore "de facto" or "customary" "standards may be applied, such as placing the switch next to the door, in or out---not behind the door.

    If you still feel that this is not correct, then could you explain without being so snippy why switches are next to the door in a room, and not behind?
    Placing switches next to a door may be a customary practice, however that does not establish a standard. NECA has an entire library of electrical installation 'standards' - standards typically establish quality of materials, installation and workmanship - not convenient placement of devices.

    As others have said, placing a switch outside the room was customary, now it's not. I still see switches placed outside the room in new construction; Saturday I saw a switch behind a door in new construction - so be it.


  47. #112
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Is that damn switch still behind the door?

    Could someone please fix it


  48. #113
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    Default Re: Door blocks Light Switch

    Please submit to the CMP a suggestion that would enable the AHJ: a code article that states where the switch should be (in addition to storage/crawls and the like), and I will happily enforce it.

    In Mi at least, it is illegal to write a violation w/o the code reference.
    Bob Smit, County EI


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