Thread: sub-sub panel

Had an inspection yesterday and viewed this panel located in the garage. It is fed from service equipment off a 50A breaker. It looks OK, except for a double tap on the panel lugs.

This tap is for a second panel located in a room at back of garage that feeds swimming pool equipment. The panel in the pool equpment room services pumps, filters and a gas fired pool heater. There are no GFCI protected breakers for this equipment.

Questions:

1. Can you feed a second panel off the lugs as shown? Is this a proper connection. (Copper feed wires for both panels are OK for 50A.)

2. Does pool equipment (especially pumps) need to be GFCI protected, if they are remote from pool. (greater than 20ft.) and enclosed in a locked room?

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No, the lugs are for ONE conductor.

Unless this is in a detached structure, with no other metallic paths back to the main structure, the use of 3 wire feeders is also incorrect.

Pool feeders also need insulated neutrals.

Originally Posted by Jim Port

No, the lugs are for ONE conductor.

Unless this is in a detached structure, with no other metallic paths back to the main structure, the use of 3 wire feeders is also incorrect.

Pool feeders also need insulated neutrals.

Jim, is there a date that 4-wire feeds to remote structures became code requirement?

Jim,

Thanks for the fast response.

The panel feed and the lugged tap feed to the pool panel each have four conductors, so that's ok.

Any info on GFCI requirement?

Thanks
Ken

Another thought on the lug connection.

Isn't that connection similar to a lugged splice nut which is OK to use?

Originally Posted by Ken Amelin

Another thought on the lug connection.

Isn't that connection similar to a lugged splice nut which is OK to use?

That lug is part of the panel. No can do...

Best

Ron

Not sure what you mean when you ask about a lugged splice nut. If you are asking about a split bolt connector, they are made for two conductors.

Is the equipment for an in-ground or above ground pool? If above ground what is the max water depth?

It is an in-ground pool

http://www.mikeholt.com/download.php...tallations.pdf

Here is a link to a free down load from Mike Holt. It explains article 680 of the National electrical code.
Worth the time and ink to print out for future reference.

Article 680.22(B) GFCI protection
Outlets supplying pool pump motors from branch circuits with short-circuit and ground fault protection rated for 15 or 20 amperes, 125 volt or 240 volt, single phase, whether by receptacle or direct connection shall be provided with ground fault circuit interrupter protection for personnel.

So yes that pool pump needs GFCI protect regardless if it's inside or outside, 120 or 240 volt, direct wired or cord and plug.

Only the 2008 code says a direct wired pump has to be a GFCI device. 2005 on back says only cord connected pumps have to be GFCI protected. When was your pool built?

That is fed by a 4-wire feeder.

If the feeder is at the top, there are the following conductors in it: black; red; white; bare ground.

If the feeder is at the bottom, there are the following conductors in it: black; black; white; bare ground.

What was the code that was adopted by your local jurisdiction when the pool was built. That is the correct way to ask the question. Michigan adopted the 2008 NEC on Dec 2, 2009 so anything before that was the 2005 code. For a house the IRC would apply most places. In Michigan the NEC does not apply to 1 and 2 family dwellings, it's the IRC here. The version adopted when the building permit was issued is what matters, not the date the pool was built. You would never change codes in the middle of construction for a house.

Home was bulit in 1997 and the pumps are direct wired

Why would the date of the code matter?

We always recommend GFCI outlet upgrades when we see them, even in older homes, for safety reasons.

Why wouldn't we recommend GFCI upgrade to pool pumps if they are now required in the current code edition?

In all cases Pools , Hot tubs , Sitz Baths , all require GFCI protection any thing around water should be protected .

The code that is enforceable on a building is the code that was adopted for the original construction. It it was built in 1972 there is no way to make someone upgrade something to the 2008 code. If a jurisdiction is still on the 2005 NEC there is no way to require a 2008 code change. The enforceable code is the code used for the plan review and permit issuance for a project. 3 and 4 wire dryer and range installations is a very common item these days. 3 wire used to satisfy the code when wired from a main service disconnect, not a sub panel. Everything from a sub panel, 4 wire panel, had to be 4 wire from that point on. Now every new installation of dryers and ranges shall be 4 wire and remove the jumper in the appliance. If you have a 1990 home with a 3 wire dryer there is no way to make them upgrade it to 4 wire just because it is the new code. I'm sure there are those who would write this up but it is wrong to do so. It will only muddy the sale of the home for a home inspector to do this. If it was deemed safe by NFPA when the home was built there is no changing that now. It just isn't allowed from this point forward for new installations.
I hope this sheds some light on the issue of using a newer code as a basis for inspecting an older dwelling. It's the wrong thing to do. This is why I personally have every code book back to at least 1978 for just this purpose. Several of these books are Handbooks as well because the extra information in so valuable and another note, Fine Print Notes are NOT ENFORCEABLE at all anyplace. It is so stated in the code book.

Originally Posted by Ken Amelin

Why would the date of the code matter?

We always recommend GFCI outlet upgrades when we see them, even in older homes, for safety reasons.

Why wouldn't we recommend GFCI upgrade to pool pumps if they are now required in the current code edition?

I agree whole heartedly!
It's seems funny on some subjects the HI's here want to inspect to the latest and greatest(?) code as they and I quote
" Are not Code Enforcement Inspectors, but rather we inspect for the most current safety codes out there.We are not restricted to adopted code"

When it comes to a pool I would think Life safety would take priority over anything else. Pools have shown to dangerous in many ways, from electric shock to accidental drownings due to lack of proper fences etc.
This is one issue that I would prefer that a HI "flex his muscle"!


HI's write up the lack of a GFCI protection in bathroom receptacles and kitchen receptacles, why not GFCI protection for pools. I can't imagine a customer complaining or the current homeowner making a big issue over what couold very well be considered a life safety issue!
Written up the correct way it will read as a no brainer that i t should be installed.

Originally Posted by ken horak

I agree whole heartedly!
It's seems funny on some subjects the HI's here want to inspect to the latest and greatest(?) code as they and I quote
" Are not Code Enforcement Inspectors, but rather we inspect for the most current safety codes out there.We are not restricted to adopted code"

When it comes to a pool I would think Life safety would take priority over anything else. Pools have shown to dangerous in many ways, from electric shock to accidental drownings due to lack of proper fences etc.
This is one issue that I would prefer that a HI "flex his muscle"!


HI's write up the lack of a GFCI protection in bathroom receptacles and kitchen receptacles, why not GFCI protection for pools. I can't imagine a customer complaining or the current homeowner making a big issue over what couold very well be considered a life safety issue!
Written up the correct way it will read as a no brainer that i t should be installed.

I agree whole heartedly - in fact we should insist on meteor shields on home while we're at in the event of a meteor strike. Then there's that Yosemite volcono issue we must protect against; with global warming all houses at lower elevations should be reconstructed on stilts.

Also, since the codes change every three years we should insist the home be deconstructed and rebuilt to current codes every code cycle - life safety is life safety and this is much more important than common sense or a home actually being code compliant at the time of construction.

Yikes - and the cars...get those older unsafe cars off the road! They don't have the latest air bags.

At every code change there ought to be a law that mandates a building inspection review to insure compliance of the latest codes...those old ladies who can't afford it...get rid of them...they don't belong if they can't keep their homes safe.

It sure is great being a HI - I can willy-nilly mandate any upgrade I want because I want it, all I have to do is call it a life safety issue.

I don't think there is a single component in a house I couldn't stretch the 'life-safey' umbrella to fit.

Heck that door bell isn't loud enough.

Originally Posted by Bob Winchester

The code that is enforceable on a building is the code that was adopted for the original construction.

You are forgetting that home inspectors DO NOT "enforce" any codes.

Home inspectors offer their best and most professional opinion on what the see, which includes (if the home inspector is smart) point out where there is no GFCI protection ... REGARDLESS of when a home was built or what code applied at that time ... where there is a wet area or an areas subject to becoming a wet area.

It is a very distinct advantage home inspectors have over others - they are hired for their professional opinions ... which is (or should be) based on what they know, have learned, and have observed.

Originally Posted by dana1028

I don't think there is a single component in a house I couldn't stretch the 'life-safey' umbrella to fit.

If you have a big enough stretcher, you may be right, but I doubt you could pull it off as no one would believe you if you tried to do that.

Sounds like just another electrician who does not like home inspectors being allowed to, EXPECTED TO, offer their professional opinion.

The home inspector gets paid more for knowing more and offering more inclusive opinions, the contractor, on the other hand, is fighting with other minimum code hugging contractors arguing with each other trying to give the lowest price as they try to skirt around minimum code to make up for it.

I've wired about 25 pools over the past 4 years and have never put a direct wired pump motor on a GFCI breaker. I always put the in-pool light and the required 120v receptacle on GFCI protection. The pools were wired to meet the code that was in effect at the time. If my crystal ball had not been in the shop I would have put the pumps on GFCI breakers also.

To the OP...I almost never had a GFCI breaker in the panel feeding the pool light and receptacle. I normally fed the pool light JB from the required GFCI receptacle. Before you say it is wrong be sure and check for a GFCI receptacle instead of a GFCI breaker in the panel.

Originally Posted by ken horak

I agree whole heartedly!
It's seems funny on some subjects the HI's here want to inspect to the latest and greatest(?) code as they and I quote
" Are not Code Enforcement Inspectors, but rather we inspect for the most current safety codes out there.We are not restricted to adopted code"

When it comes to a pool I would think Life safety would take priority over anything else. Pools have shown to dangerous in many ways, from electric shock to accidental drownings due to lack of proper fences etc.
This is one issue that I would prefer that a HI "flex his muscle"!


HI's write up the lack of a GFCI protection in bathroom receptacles and kitchen receptacles, why not GFCI protection for pools. I can't imagine a customer complaining or the current homeowner making a big issue over what couold very well be considered a life safety issue!
Written up the correct way it will read as a no brainer that i t should be installed.

If you write up the pump GFCI protection as a repair item you will be shot down by any electrician or code inspector in town. It's okay to put it in as a safety upgrade but it is not a repair item. My opinion only and you should do what makes you happy!

And to think, I was told that an Electrical Inspector is just a Home Inspector Wannabee. Now that made me laugh out loud, especially considering the source.
When I wire a house it is a little difficult to anticipate the code changes 9 years from now. I've never even had any luck anticipating the changes 3 years from now. To say that all electrical contractors cut every corner possible to come up with the lowest price is ignorant. I have standards and I refuse to deviate from them. My minimums are higher than Mr. NFPA's minimums in many cases. Not all electricians are the same but many of us have much higher standards.

Originally Posted by Bob Winchester

I have standards and I refuse to deviate from them.

That's very good.

Not all electricians are the same but many of us have much higher standards.

"Not all ... " Those are very crucial words, as MOST that we go behind fit this:

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

the contractor, on the other hand, is fighting with other minimum code hugging contractors arguing with each other trying to give the lowest price as they try to skirt around minimum code to make up for it.

That does not mean "all" do.

Just like when I said:

The home inspector gets paid more for knowing more and offering more inclusive opinions

Does not mean "all" do that either.

I'm sure different states have different problems in their contractors. It all depends on the requirements to become a master electrician or a contractor. Michigan is very strict and the quality is pretty good from my 20 years in the business. I know other places are not so good as I've seen poor workmanship done by master electricians in other states. Some has been pretty scary. Therefore when doing inspections we don't find as many corrections dealing with the good contractors as we do dealing with bad contractors. Doing as many as 3000 inspections in one year has given me plenty of experience to make these statements.
Additionally some of the work that looks so bad is very likely done by homeowners. Now that is a whole different subject. I've written as many as 4 pages of corrections for a rough in inspection where the work was done by a homeowner. Sometimes there are just as many corrections on the reinspection. That's when it gets scary for sure, when the 2nd or 3rd inspection finds more wrong than the first one.

James and Dana-
Read the last sentence in my post: IF written up CORRECTLY it will read as a no brainer.
In other words this is were the HI uses their talents to "sell" the safety issue as an upgrade NOT a repair. If written up correctly the electrician will be in a postion to also make some money, why would they complain?
My post has nothing to do with determining the code changes in the future. It has to do with relizing the code has changed and being able to spot the change. Then being a stand up type of inspector and to have the balls to write it up as a safety concern and not hide behind "what was the code at the time". Are you or are you not hired to inspect the property for defects, both in code and safety.

What is the problem, with requesting a safety upgrade? For pete's sake we all know that GFCI protection is a good thing. You would rather just let some people take a risk with their family and friends then to discuss the latest safety devices that are now required. I never said to write it up as a defect, I simply would write it up as a safety concern.

Jerry -
WOW - Once again we are on the same side! Welcome to my side of the pool

HI are not there to "sell" anything. They are hired to do a fair and impartial inspection of the condition of the property based on the code which the house was built under. If you want to be a salesman you need to be a real estate agent and not an inspector. A home inspection is not intended to help improve the position of the buyer or to be unfair to the seller. It should be a unbasied report of the condtion of the property. My opinion...I know yours is different.

Originally Posted by ken horak

James and Dana-
Read the last sentence in my post: IF written up CORRECTLY it will read as a no brainer.
In other words this is were the HI uses their talents to "sell" the safety issue as an upgrade NOT a repair. If written up correctly the electrician will be in a postion to also make some money, why would they complain?
My post has nothing to do with determining the code changes in the future. It has to do with relizing the code has changed and being able to spot the change. Then being a stand up type of inspector and to have the balls to write it up as a safety concern and not hide behind "what was the code at the time". Are you or are you not hired to inspect the property for defects, both in code and safety.

What is the problem, with requesting a safety upgrade? For pete's sake we all know that GFCI protection is a good thing. You would rather just let some people take a risk with their family and friends then to discuss the latest safety devices that are now required. I never said to write it up as a defect, I simply would write it up as a safety concern.

Ken,

As I was reading through your post I was saying to myself ...

Jerry -
WOW - Once again we are on the same side! Welcome to my side of the pool

... that very same thing!

This is the part that, it seems, many electricians simply do not get: "If written up correctly the electrician will be in a postion to also make some money, why would they complain?", but, you explained it well, so maybe now they will?

Originally Posted by James Duffin

HI are not there to "sell" anything.

Ken is talking about the electrician being able to use the HI looking out for their client as the REASON (a VERY GOOD SAFETY *REASON*) to allow the electrician "so sell" what was written up.

I guess Ken did not explain it as well as I thought he did, or maybe he did and you still just do not "get it"?

I find it hard to comprehend what so many electricians on this board find it difficult to understand that "safety" is not code dependent, that code is only when enough people got together and finally agreed that enough OTHER PEOPLE were being injured or killed that they would FINALLY address it in the code and stop leaving it to COMMON SENSE as, apparently, COMMON SENSE was not as common as was believed.

Want to know when code realized that using metal conduit was a risk and needed to be grounded? In the VERY FIRST 1897 NEC. Yet MANY ELECTRICIANS refused to ground metal conduit because the systems were only two wire ungrounded branch circuits, so why ground the metal? BECAUSE THE CODE PEOPLE RECOGNIZED that as unsafe over 100 friggin' years ago.

Home buyers hire home inspectors. They do it on their own or because the financing institution requires it or the realtor suggests it as a good thing to do. The buyer will take whatever the home inspector writes up as necessary to complete the sale. Sometimes what is written up is a joke. That's just a fact that I determined from my knowledge and expertise. This is all used to get the seller to back off on the price of the house. I can't tell you how many times I've been asked to make the corrections written up by the home inspector. There is now "how" it is written up. The forms are filled out and items are listed so the buyer thinks they MUST be done to make the house safe. 2 wire receptacles are written up. There is NOTHING wrong with 2 wire receptacles. 3 wire receptacles are only useful where a 3 wire device is to be used. Computers come to mind. Lamps use 2 wires and they are sometimes polarized. This is more important that 3 wire receptacles where only 2 wire cords will be plugged in. I'd much rather see polarized 2 wire plugs than going thru to ground 3 wire receptacles where nothing 3 wire will be used. 3 wire receptacles can only be used if not grounded when protected by a GFCI device. That is the code. And then there are HUD homes. The federal government inspected those when they were built in the factories. This is a lifetime inspection and as long as they are not modified no inspector has the right to inspect inside the home and demand anything be changed. That is federal and no state can override it. If it's a HUD home it's the same as a mobile home and it's never a modular home. That's just a fact. The foundation makes no difference. It's still a "listed and labled piece of equipment".

Well said Bob...I agree completely. I do lots of pre-sale inspections and I tell the seller in my report what does not meet the current code so they will be aware of what the buyer inspector may write up as a repair item when really it is an improvement. It think some HI write up everything they see as a CYA tactic and to cover up a lack of knowledge.

I personally don't find the use of two wire receptacles as a bad thing or anything wrong with them...in a sense!

Now, is there anything wrong with them overall? I do happen to think so. How many times have you see the ground prong cut off a plug or an adapter not used correctly.

Is there anything wrong with them, in this day.....yes, They can be dangerous in the sense that home owners are not always going to do what is right. Should they be upgraded? Yes.

In our state it is a requirement that we write them up as deficient.

Write them up as deficient and explain why.

As far as home buyers hiring home inspectors...they should. The amount of items home inspectors find everyday for home buyers is vast and if they are in the negotiating mood...saves them a lot of money. Some are buying the home as is but do not want to do the as is thing if it means thousands and thousands for repair and the simple fact they would like to know what they are getting into.

From James Duffin

" HI are not there to "sell" anything. They are hired to do a fair and impartial inspection of the condition of the property based on the code which the house was built under. If you want to be a salesman you need to be a real estate agent and not an inspector. A home inspection is not intended to help improve the position of the buyer or to be unfair to the seller. It should be a unbiased report of the condition of the property. My opinion...I know yours is different."

We write up unsafe conditions. Can we touch on every safety item possible in a home...no. We are not required and would also be quite impossible to write up every safety and health issue.

Selling the buyers on upgrades.... I explain what I have found. If it is a safety issue I explain that as well. I also add, where some inspectors disagree, I have found such and such (explain). (if it is electrical) It is advisable to hire an electrician for further evaluation of the repair/upgrade needed as well as a price to do so. Just as in HVAC a good HVAC man will either find more or possible the root cause may be slightly different. Our inspections are limited to a point.

From what I hear we should dismantle a dish washer and go over it with a fine tooth comb....Ain't happening.

Our selling is the fact we found something and most of the time with electrical it is a safety concern. After all, what else would it be? It is the electricians job to do the selling. We do the reporting. We are no selling anyone anything.

How much will that home inspection be for that 1000 square foot home? Well mam, that will be $1,250.00....That ain't happening either. That is why we do not go as deep as the individual trades would and they should. Once concerns are found it's passed off to the appropriate tradesmen.

Does that sound like we are cheating folks....No. We are there to help REDUCE the risk in the home buying process. Not to certify a home and give them a lifetime guaranty.

I know some inspectors are better than others as well as electricians or plumbers or accountants for that matter. But , in all, home inspectors turn a lot of dollars over to the trades for all the repairs and upgrades needed on all these homes and for the most part they do an extremely good job for the time frame they are in a home.

Now, as far as an electrician, plumber, HVAC man etc having anywhere near the knowledge of a good home inspector about all the systems in a home.......Not a chance.

So before bashing or thinking of bashing an inspector for maybe not writing something up exactly how it should.....they got you there, did they not. The vast majority of the time they are pretty right on. Repairs/upgrades are needed. Do your job and do a deeper evaluation as you will anyway because you would never just proceed with the work with out doing your own evaluation, and sell the job.

Ok let me clarify myself:
I said Let the HI "sell" ............
OK did anyone see the quotation marks?
I did not mean sell it as if the HI was going to do the reapeir or even contract it out.

I mean to discuss, present, explain, the safety aspect of the issue.

NO offense to JP , but he was able to understand me, and we don't always undersatnd each other

"Now, as far as an electrician, plumber, HVAC man etc having anywhere near the knowledge of a good home inspector about all the systems in a home.......Not a chance."

What if the HI is also a licensed electrcian, plumber, and HVAC contractor. Does that "Not a chance" still apply? Just wondering....

[quote=Ted Menelly;128175]

Now, as far as an electrician, plumber, HVAC man etc having anywhere near the knowledge of a good home inspector about all the systems in a home.......Not a chance.

quote]

Pretty narrow frame of thought aint it.
I had no idea that Home Inspectors had the market cornered on Knowledge!

News flash just because on practices one trade does not in any way mean that he / she is limited in their knowledge of more then that one.
And SOME home Inspectors wonder why the trades do not take them seriously.

Originally Posted by James Duffin

"Now, as far as an electrician, plumber, HVAC man etc having anywhere near the knowledge of a good home inspector about all the systems in a home.......Not a chance."

What if the HI is also a licensed electrcian, plumber, and HVAC contractor. Does that "Not a chance" still apply? Just wondering....

If you are a home inspector.....

Originally Posted by James Duffin

...I agree completely.

to cover up a lack of knowledge.

.
.

Originally Posted by chris mcintyre

If you are a home inspector.....

.
.
Oops!
* it does show doesn't it.
.

I concur with Bob W.: HI's should stick to what they are hired for, that is, what is in need of repair or replacement.
That said, and I do believe some have already suggested, that 'possible upgrades' in the most egregious of needs could be communicated without inferring that they should be required.
Bob Smit, County EI

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

.
.


.
.
Oops!
* it does show doesn't it.
.

I never ever thought you were a HI so don't worry about being confused with one.

Originally Posted by James Duffin

.
I never ever thought you were a HI so don't worry about being confused with one.

.
Thanks, ( Quite a Complement )
* Coming from a Man of Your Demonstrated Knowledge.
.

[quote=ken horak;128206]

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

Now, as far as an electrician, plumber, HVAC man etc having anywhere near the knowledge of a good home inspector about all the systems in a home.......Not a chance.

quote]

Pretty narrow frame of thought aint it.
I had no idea that Home Inspectors had the market cornered on Knowledge!

News flash just because on practices one trade does not in any way mean that he / she is limited in their knowledge of more then that one.
And SOME home Inspectors wonder why the trades do not take them seriously.

Actually no, it is not. Fact is that the vast majority of tradesmen can dabble in other trades but are really not that proficient. There are those exceptions.

Myself and a preety biug number of inspectors dabbled in all trades in the construction industry and were profitiant at some and then became an inspector and studied on all those trades, and tested on all those trades, and restested yearly on all those trades and inspected on all those trades for years and som a decade or 2 or three.

Fact is if you are an electrician and that is your trade then that is your most skilled asset. Inspectors have to know plumbing, HVAC, framing, foundation, venetilation, electrical, roofing, flashing, grading and drainage, sprinkler systems, windows, doors, skylights, appliances, garage doors, interior exterior doors, Insulation, and and and and have to know them pretty damn good or else.

I am not knocking any trade. I am just telling you like it is. There is a tremendous amount of knowledge a home inspector has to get down and personal with and be tremedously familiar with and be able to spot every item possible in every home within a few hours and then write them iup in an understandable manner so home buyers will know what the heck they are talking about and practically never ever get any calls with help in explaining the concerns.

That is a tremendous burden to bare.

I hear U Ted!
I hear all the ragging on AHJ's and on HI's alike.
Fact is: there are a few incompetent and/or indifferent AHJ's abusing their autoritii (Cartman style), likewise I've performed inspections requested by a Seller, which made me LOL-at the nit pick while missing the forest.

It does amaze me however, the broad range of knowledge that 'most' HI's possess. Being a residential builder prior to getting into the electrical trade has given me a much needed broad perspective.
That said, I still don't know dung about many issues a HI is required to know, such as but not limited too.... Bugs, infestation types, various molds,..........
I can hold my own if anyone is interested in discussing quantum mechanics and the latest on the CMB
Bob Smit, County EI

Originally Posted by bob smit

I hear U Ted!
I hear all the ragging on AHJ's and on HI's alike.
Fact is: there are a few incompetent and/or indifferent AHJ's abusing their autoritii (Cartman style), likewise I've performed inspections requested by a Seller, which made me LOL-at the nit pick while missing the forest.

It does amaze me however, the broad range of knowledge that 'most' HI's possess. Being a residential builder prior to getting into the electrical trade has given me a much needed broad perspective.
That said, I still don't know dung about many issues a HI is required to know, such as but not limited too.... Bugs, infestation types, various molds,..........
I can hold my own if anyone is interested in discussing quantum mechanics and the latest on the CMB
Bob Smit, County EI

Now there you go

I know a lot about Quantum and astro physics and I learned it all from Major Carter on Strar Gate and probably a little from Carter from Welcome back Carter (or is it Cotter), also a little bit from the science channel