Thread: In shower footprint

Bath fan.

Comments, code reference?

TIA

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Depends on the manufacturers listing. It may have to be GFCI protected.

I'll be corrected on this shortly if wrong, but I'm not aware of any code specifically mentioning where an exhaust fan is allowed in a bathroom.

Here's one manufacturer's product that requires GFCI protection in the shower zone: http://www.nutone.com/PDF/InstallGui...RFins87588.pdf

What was the height of the fan above the shower floor?

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Needs to be wet Zone Rated.
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Link too long

Google wet zone exhaust fan in shower.

Scroll Down to NFPA's Residential Wiring - Google Books Results.

also this sites Archives has lots of info.
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Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

Depends on the manufacturers listing. It may have to be GFCI protected.

Agreed, GFI protection is typically required in the instructions.

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

I'll be corrected on this shortly if wrong, but I'm not aware of any code specifically mentioning where an exhaust fan is allowed in a bathroom.

Not in NEC.

Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski

What was the height of the fan above the shower floor?

Not sure why this would be an issue. The height and horizontal clearances are for hanging items like pendants, paddle fans and chandeliers.

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

...Link too long....

NFPA's Residential Wiring - Google Books

Originally Posted by Rick Maday

Bath fan.

Comments, code reference?

TIA

It is not a problem as long as it is rated for wet locations. Some local AHJ's as well as the manufacturer of the fan might require it to also be on a GFCI.

NEC and IRC address luminaires.

Why would something mounted on a drywall ceiling need to be wet location rated?

Location, Wet.

Installations under ground or in concrete
slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations
subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such
as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed

to weather.

The possibility of an occassional splash does not make a wet area.

Originally Posted by John Arnold

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NFPA's Residential Wiring - Google Books

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I'm Too ( you fill in the Blank ) Bored, Tired, Lazy , Unwilling, ect.
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Originally Posted by Jim Port

Why would something mounted on a drywall ceiling need to be wet location rated?

Location, Wet.

Installations under ground or in concrete
slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations
subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such
as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed

to weather.

The possibility of an occassional splash does not make a wet area.

Just to be on the safe side!!

It is subject to a great deal of moisture from just being in the shower. That could be splashing or also from the humidity. I agree it is not a "wet" area as defined but it is surely a pretty damp area.

Do they make fans for damp areas or are they listed for wet areas? I'm not really sure, I guess this would be a good one to go and findout.

A side from any Code. its a bad idea from a moisture point of view.

You have an opening in the sheet rock that exposes the interior of the rock to the moisture.

I had one like that but it was a light and a fan above a built in tile bath/shower some time back and we went around with it. I put in my report the area indicated moisture to the sheet rock and that it need further inspection to locate the information on the listing of the unit.

Best

Ron

Originally Posted by Rick Maday

Bath fan.

Comments, code reference?

TIA

Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore

Depends on the manufacturers listing. It may have to be GFCI protected.

I'll be corrected on this shortly if wrong, but I'm not aware of any code specifically mentioning where an exhaust fan is allowed in a bathroom.

Here's one manufacturer's product that requires GFCI protection in the shower zone: http://www.nutone.com/PDF/InstallGui...RFins87588.pdf

To be in that zone (above tub or shower within 8' of threshold or flood-rim & within 3' feet out and/or within 6' of the drain height - ILL Plumbing Code, further subject to local ammendments/adoptions/restrictions to IRC, BOCA, IPC, etc. - default in IL hails back to 93 BOCA or 94 IBC IIRC) it would have to be LISTED AND MARKED as follows:

First, the Listing Standard is UL 507.

You will find the next references in the UL White Book or the Certifications Directory, Quick Guide under listing category GPWV (GPWV.GuideInfo):

PRODUCT MARKINGS
(bold, underlining & colored highlighting are not original)

Ceiling-insert fans, wall-insert fans, and ceiling-insert fan/light combinations intended to be mounted over bathtubs, showers, or within the zone above the bathtub and shower area as defined by Article 410 of the NEC, are marked "Acceptable for use over a bathtub or shower when installed in a GFCI protected branch circuit." These products are investigated to determine the effects of moisture (dampness or wetting), such as shower spray.

You can find your shower/bathtub zones further defined via the Illinois Plumbing Code (requires shower safe pans continue up at least 2 inches from the highest point of the shower floor, not the drain/screen), local ammendments/adoptions which may be more restrictive. Flood rim, rim, threshold, etc. measurements begin as defined in the illinois plumbing code, then apply your BOCA, IRC, IBC, and/or NEC as locally adopted/ammended zone & electrical restrictions, next apply your manufacturer's listing restrictions, next the manufacturer's listed recommendations.

Further restrictions may be found in the specific manufacturer's instructions for the Listed (and marked as indicated in what I quoted above, and enhanced by underlining, bolding, and coloring blue).

Bottom line, at a minimum, it must be listed to UL 507, and marked as indicated above, and be supplied by/installed to a GFCI protected branch circuit.

Things get slightly more complicated depending on the jurisdiction, for example IIRC Northbrook applies both Ill. Plumbing Code and Int'l Plumbing Code with their own ammendments but in a complicated way; Tinley Park, for example applies both the Ill. Plumbing Code AND the Chicago Plumbing Code; etc. If in Cook County, and some municipalities which abut it, only EMT and similar wiring methods are allowed, IG may or may not be required in this location, depending on wiring method restrictions, occupancy type, and local rules. If this is a pre 74 or 76 "Mobile home" manufactured home, special rules apply, same goes for post HUD date "manufactured homes". If this is a multi-floor building, other rules may apply (41 Ill. Admin.Code 400) as well regarding the shower compartment.

HTH.

Cutting to the chase this exhaust fan is obviously made to handle humidity.
It is not found in kitchens is it ?

The devise is doing exactly what it was made for.

Simple .Sometimes I see far too much over thinking here.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

Cutting to the chase this exhaust fan is obviously made to handle humidity.
It is not found in kitchens is it ?

The devise is doing exactly what it was made for.

Simple .Sometimes I see far too much over thinking here.

Being able to handle humidity 'through the fan and exhaust system' is not the same as the fan being listed for 'being used in a high humid environment'.

Simple. Sometimes I see far too little thinking here, and far too little thought process used for that thinking.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Being able to handle humidity 'through the fan and exhaust system' is not the same as the fan being listed for 'being used in a high humid environment'.

Simple. Sometimes I see far too little thinking here, and far too little thought process used for that thinking.

A small bathroom is full of steam and humidity above the shower and inside also.
There in no danger if wired and ducted properly.

8 feet up or 7' and 6" is not going to change a thing in this case.
(common sense)

Did not even need a slide rule to impress the locals for that one.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

A small bathroom is full of steam and humidity above the shower and inside also.

Not likely directly over the shower and within the shower curtain/shower enclosure.

There in no danger if wired and ducted properly.

Then why are they required to be GFCI protected?

8 feet up or 7' and 6" is not going to change a thing in this case.
(common sense)

Yes, common sense is needed, and seems to be missing on your part.

Did not even need a slide rule to impress the locals for that one.

No, a slide rule is not needed, but maybe it would help you understand the what and why for exhaust fans in shower areas.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Not likely directly over the shower and within the shower curtain/shower enclosure.



Then why are they required to be GFCI protected?



Yes, common sense is needed, and seems to be missing on your part.



No, a slide rule is not needed, but maybe it would help you understand the what and why for exhaust fans in shower areas.

Other than smug remarks you clarified nothing with your quotes and comments.
Insults and nothing positive to explain anything.

Please tell us what terrible situation will arise from having an exhaust fan in the ceiling of a bathroom will occur. (ha ha)

I will begin a massive campaign to have the hundreds of thousands in place removed ,and thus save all of humanity from this unacceptable situation.

From now on I will insist in my reports that they be immediately removed,the electric dis connected ,a sledgehammer be used to pop an opening and a louvered glass block window be put in place even if in an 40 year old high rise with 500 units all installed the same way.

Those poor people have no idea what may befall them.
Thanks Jerry.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Being able to handle humidity 'through the fan and exhaust system' is not the same as the fan being listed for 'being used in a high humid environment'.

Simple. Sometimes I see far too little thinking here, and far too little thought process used for that thinking.

Perhaps you should start thinking before you type.
Maybe you think you are smarter than the good people at Broan .

Some of your time could have been spent searching for a link such as this rather than trying to put others down for once.

FAQ

The only requirement is for GFCI.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

Cutting to the chase this exhaust fan is obviously made to handle humidity.
It is not found in kitchens is it ?

The devise is doing exactly what it was made for.

Simple .Sometimes I see far too much over thinking here.

i agree, well said Bob.

I actually prefer to put them there when remodeling bathrooms -- right at the source.

All interesting stuff here.

I would not put it directly over the shower. A lot of that moisture would get recycled back down to earth into the shower and tub and down the drain . If slightly outside the shower it is only pulled the moisture or humid air from the bathroom and not drowning the poor thing and doing what would be the equivalent of holding the thing upside down and pumping a spray bottle into it until the bottle was empty.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Being able to handle humidity 'through the fan and exhaust system' is not the same as the fan being listed for 'being used in a high humid environment'.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

Perhaps you should start thinking before you type.
Maybe you think you are smarter than the good people at Broan .

From the good people at Broan:

Can I mount Broan fans above my tub and shower?
Most Broan fans are rated for use over a shower or bathtub with a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter).

Bob, it says most, not all, and this from the link you posted!

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

Other than smug remarks you clarified nothing with your quotes and comments.
Insults and nothing positive to explain anything.

If my comments seemed smug and like insults, adding nothing positive, it is because they were like kind to the comments I was replying to ... which I guess by your statements you are stating that your comments were smug, insults, and did nothing positive for this thread.

But the rest of us already knew that, without you telling us.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

Perhaps you should start thinking before you type.
Maybe you think you are smarter than the good people at Broan .

Some of your time could have been spent searching for a link such as this rather than trying to put others down for once.

FAQ

The only requirement is for GFCI.

Originally Posted by jason schatz

i agree, well said Bob.

I actually prefer to put them there when remodeling bathrooms -- right at the source.

Originally Posted by chris mcintyre

From the good people at Broan:


Bob, it says most, not all, and this from the link you posted!

Chris,

I see that I am not the only one who can read.

I am sure that most others on this board also caught that.

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

A small bathroom is full of steam and humidity above the shower and inside also.
There in no danger if wired and ducted properly.

8 feet up or 7' and 6" is not going to change a thing in this case.
(common sense)

Did not even need a slide rule to impress the locals for that one.

First of all without removing the cover and visualizng the required Listing Label "suitable for...." as indicated in my post AND a legit Listing mark indicating it is further Listed to UL 507 (with the suitable clause) and assuring supplied by a GFCI protected branch circuit, your first statement is just plain: flung dung ! (in the "land of metal boxes, metal conduit for EG otherwise 2-wire or MWBC IOW, greater Chicago land). OP's sig line indicates based in "schaumburg" - last I checked that's NW burb in "Chicago-land".

Second, it is more than obvious that the area over the shower compartment has a dropped ceiling - evidenced at the upper left of the photo. Furthermore, note the proximity to the shower arm, and the proximity to the shower head. There is quite obviously no 8' nor 7'6" between the shower compartment floor, the shower drain, nor the rim of the pan or threshold and the screen for the in-line fan.

Your short-sightedness and tendency to leap to unsupportable conclusions is once again exposed.

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

If my comments seemed smug and like insults, adding nothing positive, it is because they were like kind to the comments I was replying to ... which I guess by your statements you are stating that your comments were smug, insults, and did nothing positive for this thread.

But the rest of us already knew that, without you telling us.

Jerry I just hate when people act like scientists over simple issues is all.

Say a exhaust fan is over a shower for the last 10m years and never had any issues,works fine.
Is anyone here going to cry wolf ,and freak out both the seller and buyer about it?
Seriously I would like to hear from someone what will be the result?

Sorry if I busted you but I am double booked every day lately.
Sometimes the issues seem trivial and mountains made out of mole hills,but that is what these forums are for ,so "sorry."

I am used to fighting you guys over goofy stuff, like which club I belong to.

Originally Posted by chris mcintyre

From the good people at Broan:


Bob, it says most, not all, and this from the link you posted!

"Good point."
Stab me with my own knife will you?

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott

Say a exhaust fan is over a shower for the last 10m years and never had any issues,works fine.
Is anyone here going to cry wolf ,and freak out both the seller and buyer about it?

Say you stand out in the middle of the interstate highway for 24 hours and do not get hit by a vehicle ... does that then mean you can safely stand there another 24 hours and expect the same? How about another 7 days? The longer you stand out there, the shorter time you should be expecting to have left. "Time" is not a safety device, in fact "time" is running out as time advances.

Doing something wrong and getting away with it for however long you get away with it does not make it "safe", it just means you have been "lucky" and I, for one, do not like to saddle my clients with "luck" which a previous owner may have used all up and the "luck just ran out" when my client buys the house.

You may not consider your client's life as important as I consider my client's life?

Originally Posted by Jerry Peck

Say you stand out in the middle of the interstate highway for 24 hours and do not get hit by a vehicle ... does that then mean you can safely stand there another 24 hours and expect the same? How about another 7 days? The longer you stand out there, the shorter time you should be expecting to have left. "Time" is not a safety device, in fact "time" is running out as time advances.

Doing something wrong and getting away with it for however long you get away with it does not make it "safe", it just means you have been "lucky" and I, for one, do not like to saddle my clients with "luck" which a previous owner may have used all up and the "luck just ran out" when my client buys the house.

You may not consider your client's life as important as I consider my client's life?

Somehow I knew you would hit me with the same line we all use.

I prefer ,my Tires are 10 years old and never had a problem so why should i change them?

No that that is out of the way ,tell me which part of the all plastic case is going to drip electricity at my client (snicker)

(remember it is also GFCI protected)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott
Say a exhaust fan is over a shower for the last 10m years and never had any issues,works fine.
Is anyone here going to cry wolf ,and freak out both the seller and buyer about it?


Bob,

The answer is quite simple. Home inspectors must report safety issues.

If you report nothing and someone get's injured from trying to clean the fan while standing in the bath tub, you will be liable.

Originally Posted by Ken Amelin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Elliott
Say a exhaust fan is over a shower for the last 10m years and never had any issues,works fine.
Is anyone here going to cry wolf ,and freak out both the seller and buyer about it?


Bob,

The answer is quite simple. Home inspectors must report safety issues.

If you report nothing and someone get's injured from trying to clean the fan while standing in the bath tub, you will be liable.

not trying to sound argumentative, but by that logic, shower lights should be written up as well...


this has been an interesting conversation... and as a new follower to this board, I have found great value in hearing from other HI's. We certainly have an obligation to report safety issues, however I think it is also important to avoid un-necessarily scaring buyers away from homes. Not that this particular topic falls under that category, but we owe it to both the buyer AND seller to be very well educated & experienced.

As I said, I enjoy following this board, and although I/we may disgree with each other & argue, everyone who reads/posts on here clearly sees the importance of expanding their knowledge --- something for which I have great respect.

Originally Posted by Ken Amelin

Bob,

The answer is quite simple. Home inspectors must report safety issues.

If you report nothing and someone get's injured from trying to clean the fan while standing in the bath tub, you will be liable.

What would be the issue? The possiblility of someone falling from the ladder?

So maybe the garbage disposal should be written up in case someone forgets there are blades that could hurt or maim a hand? Toilets should be written up a a drowning hazard?

[quote=Jim Port;130023Toilets should be written up a a drowning hazard?[/quote]

Probably. I think I came pretty close a few times in college.

Originally Posted by Jim Port

Why would something mounted on a drywall ceiling need to be wet location rated?

THE FAN CAN COLLECT MOISTURE IN SIDE THE MOUNTING AND IT CAN DRAW MOISTURE AROUND THE UNIT ALONG WITH THE SHEET ROCK. THAT IS WHY IS FAN SYSTEM NEED TO BE MOISTURE RATED.

Originally Posted by Jim Port

Location, Wet.

Installations under ground or in concrete
slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations
subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such
as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed

to weather.

The possibility of an occasional splash does not make a wet area.

THE FAN CAN COLLECT MOISTURE IN SIDE THE MOUNTING AND IT CAN DRAW MOISTURE AROUND THE UNIT ALONG WITH THE SHEET ROCK. THAT IS WHY IS FAN SYSTEM NEED TO BE MOISTURE RATED.

I never see bathfans in the shower stall, Why not???
I think because most builders feel it is a dumb idea.
So 2 days after the first post by Rick Maday, what do I find? Something even dumber than his.

I called for a repair, GFCI protection at least. I said it will probably lead to moisture problems in that location.
I then recommended moving it to the ceiling above the toilet, where it is needed the most.