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Thread: Amperage

  1. #1
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    Default Amperage

    Should this be reported as a 200 Amp service? I can't see the service wires and the panel is rated for up to 200 Amps. Two distribution panels in basement.

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  2. #2
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amperage

    Since there is not a single main breaker I would size the service based on the rating of the wires feeding the main lugs in the panel.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: Amperage

    Without further info I would rate it as a 100A service. Since there are no other breakers visible and you stated that there are two distribution panels I will make a couple assumptions.
    - it's a 100A service
    - the picture shows a 'main distribution box' that feeds the 2 other breaker panels you mentioned.
    - in an honest world it is an odd ball install
    - in a not so honest world it may be a shady contractor trying to pull a fast one
    - maybe the Sparky thought providing a A & B side was a good way of distributing the load for the house equally.
    - service feed underground, if not check feed wire size

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  4. #4
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amperage

    If the panel in the picture is the service panel it can up to six breakers. The limiting factor is the wire size feeding the panel.


  5. #5
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    Default Re: Amperage

    James, I agree , but I can't see the wires, they are underground. I addded new pictures above.

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Amperage

    I would, and always did, rate it as "Two 100 amp main disconnects.", which is not stating it is a 200 amp service (it might not be) but it certainly is more than a 100 amp service (presuming that I could find some way to see the wire size as being that).

    If you are saying you would only rate it as 100 amps because you cannot see the service entrance conductor size, then you should not be rating it at anything because those 100 amp breakers may have been fed from a #14 wire ... if you cannot see them, you do not know.

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  7. #7
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amperage

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Rees View Post
    James, I agree , but I can't see the wires, they are underground. I added new pictures above.
    I see now. They must have bus bars from the meter terminals to breaker bus bars. Based on the information available I would go with 200 amps for the service size.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Amperage

    I don't "see". I don't understand why the OP has not removed the dead front for the service panel and visualized the SE from the meter to the bus?
    Whether there are two feeder circuits or one from this panel makes no difference and has nothing to do with the service rating.


  9. #9
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    Question Re: Amperage

    I know we are talking electric, but is that downspout too close to the service entrance?


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Amperage

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I don't "see". I don't understand why the OP has not removed the dead front for the service panel and visualized the SE from the meter to the bus?
    Whether there are two feeder circuits or one from this panel makes no difference and has nothing to do with the service rating.
    The panels that I have seen do not have wire feeds from the meter to the breaker buss, they have buss bars from the meter to the breaker buss.

    I report the SEC as integral to the panel and use the listed amperage of the panel as the SEC size. In the report this one would show two 100 amp services due to the limiting factor of the circuit breakers.

    Last edited by Vern Heiler; 05-11-2010 at 05:55 AM. Reason: add breakers

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Amperage

    Vern is correct, and I did remove the front panel and there are no wires from the meter to the buss bars. The small panel below the meter has a tamper proof seal on it. I reported it as two 100 Amp services.

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

  12. #12
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amperage

    Wouldn't that be a 200 amp service with two 100 amp breakers feeding two subpanels? If you had two 100 amp, two 40 amp, one 60 amp, and one 30 amp breaker what size service would it be then? To me it would still be a 200 amp service if that is what the panel is rated.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Amperage

    SC12L200S up to six service disconnects uses HOM up to 200 amps rating.
    Product Detail - Schneider Electric United States

    There is/was a special order SC12L200P.

    Notes from DWG #3189 (attached):

    - Install no more than six circuit breakers. Use 15-110A and 150-200A Branch Breakers only.


    - Total Circuit Breaker Handle Rating not to exceed 170A per circuit connector.

    A square D Ul Listed Secondary surge arrester may plug on two adjacent spaces. Order Catalog No. HOM2175SB
    Ampere Rating: 200
    Factory Installed Bypass Type: None
    Short Circuit Current Rating: 10K
    Catalog Number: SC12L200S Series M01
    Spaces: 12
    Maximum Number of Single Pole HOM Circuits - See Wiring Diagram (note) above (none)
    Line Side Phase & neutral Lugs
    (AWG/KCML):
    #4-250
    CU/AL;
    Large Branch Neutral
    AWG:
    #14-2/0
    CU/AL min. #12)

    See: DWG #3189

    From FAQ's:
    # 2024859
    Q: Can this product be used for an overhead or underground feed application?
    A: Yes this device is suitable for either overhead or underground feed appliactions. However, this device is approved for underground service ONLY with Arizona Public Service (APS) or Salt River Project (SRP) utility companies.

    Q: Is the SC12L200S provided with a factory installed service disconnect?
    A: No, the service disconnect(s) must be field installed in this device. Install only HOM type of breaker, 15-110A and/or a 150-200A breaker maximum. A 125A breaker cannot be used. A maximum of (6) 15-110A HOM breakers can be installed. A maximum of (1) 150-200A HOM breaker can be installed. If a 150-200A HOM breaker is installed, a maximum of (4) 15-110A HOM breakers can be installed.

    Q: What is the amperage range of main breakers that can be used in a SC12L200S?
    A: Use 15-110A and 150-200A main breakers only. Total circuit breaker handle rating not to exceed 170A per circuit connector.

    Q: What type of branch circuit breakers are used with the SC12L200S Combination Service Entrance Device?
    A: This CSED panel is a Meter-Main device and does not accept branch circuit breakers.

    Q: SCCR? A: 10,000 RMS Symmetrical Amperes at 120/240Vac maximum.
    Q: Bypass? A: No bypass is supplied, and a field installable bypass is not available.

    Q: What is the terminal lug data for a SC12L200S Combination Service Entrance Device?
    A: The main phase and neutral lugs accept a #4 AWG - 250 KCMIL copper or aluminum conductor. The service ground lug accepts a #14-#2/0 AWG copper or a #12-#2/0 AWG aluminum conductor.




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  14. #14
    James Duffin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amperage

    Good info.....thanks!


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Amperage

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    SC12L200S up to six service disconnects uses HOM up to 200 amps rating.
    Product Detail - Schneider Electric United States
    Why is this panel so expensive?
    $1,419.00 List Price



  16. #16
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    Default Re: Amperage

    Quote Originally Posted by chris mcintyre View Post
    Why is this panel so expensive?
    It is a Surface mount Ring Type Rainproof NEMA type 3R Combination Service Entrance Device (CSED) , that includes a UL 414 Meter Socket, etc. not "just" a panel. It is also field repairable (replacement bus bars, etc.) for example.

    See your UL White Book, or review UL File Number E6294 and associated links on the UL Certification Directory for more info.

    P.S. Rarely, if ever, would an EC pay "list" for such a device.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 05-12-2010 at 05:32 AM.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Amperage

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip View Post
    I know we are talking electric, but is that downspout too close to the service entrance?
    Good point, and you're right, the offset projection and location/proximity appears that it may be in violation of RMP/UL&P's residential meter cabinet's surface mount projection, clearance and proximity rules (zero projection, 4" & 10" horizontal clearances hinge & cab/box sides) and state/local ammendments regarding working spaces/access clearances.

    http://www.rockymountainpower.net/co..._section_3.pdf

    http://www.rockymountainpower.net/co..._section_5.pdf

    Electric Service Requirements


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Amperage

    H.G. I read your links and do not see any mention of clearance from gutter downspout. Thank you for the link but could you clarify. Thank You

    Tom Rees / A Closer Look Home Inspection / Salt Lake City, Utah

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Amperage

    You won't find a reference to downspouts specifically, or conductive metal specifically. Applied or projections of the building surface and cabinet/meter socket/CSED surface mounted, underground service (service lateral) and clearances, you will find.

    Ch. 3, 5 & 7(via 3rd link) "residential".

    See applicable notes in clearance diagrams for service lateral meter sockets/cabinets. See also local ammendments notes to IRC on your city's web site and Dwg #3189 from mfg.

    It is one combination device includes the meter socket.

    Downspout proximity, surface mount on brick, the offset in the downspout over same brings it forward on the structure surface beyond the front plane of the cabinet.

    Rainproof not waterproof.

    3.4.3, (4)
    Figs. 5.1.1 & 5.2.1
    Sect. 7 (3rd Link, presumed you'd consult as titled "residential"):
    Figs. 7.4.2 & 7.5.2
    Sect. 7.5 Location, 2nd paragraph defers to Sect. 5 "Clearances".

    Local Building Code restrictions, most restrictive apply (also noted in RMP) meaning if greater dedicated space and clear working spaces are required by any in the applicable - they apply. See also Mfg. Instructions for clearances.

    Proximity of light and man door to garage (presuming man door to garage - or area without direct view of "living space", although was thinking an inconvienent or an "odd" place for a keybox, perhaps not) appear okay - downspout appears a later ammendment or modification as to location & proximity to hinge side and its offset around brick projection beyond face of cabinet & dead front cover.

    I'm reading it as 36"d x 36" wide minimum or 10" horizontal from each side of meter socket box/combination device, whichever is greater for surface mount, 4" horizontal minimum flush clear space hinge side of CSED. 16" from alcove wall, 3' from window or door with view of living space, and 10' from front wall corner.

    Water/blown rain can run/shed down face of downspout, as it can on any building surface. The "face" of that downspout appears "proud" of the mounted back of the CSED and its "face" where it offsets over the brick, and within 10" horizontal and 4" horizontal.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 05-14-2010 at 09:07 AM.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Amperage

    As indicated previously, I said "appears" to be - I have no scale except for the "given" dimmensions of the device (see pdf drawing provided earlier) 21.5" face - or a side view to confirm no irregular photo distortion, illusions, etc.; but even assuming standard, not queenies or kings bricks or greater for the brick sizes, and the smallest downs, it appears to be of issue including the top (cap, soldier) course of all brickwork in proximity

    P.S. The Teleco NIC (below) and Cable Co. box (above) have own issues really should have drip loops fashioned to their connections as well, and the cables connector on the face of the brick are within the 10" horizontal zone on the surface to the left of the meter which is proud of the brick surface the CSED is mounted upon. Hard to know dimmension/projection of door light fixture/luminaire - or true height from grade - might be proximally invading clear space requirements of RMP.



    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 05-14-2010 at 09:45 AM.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Amperage

    All I was going by is that in the years I have been looking at houses downspouts disconnected at the gutter is fairly normal, and that water would dump right on top of the cabinet. Just like you keep water pipes away from breaker boxes is the basement.


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