Thread: Arc fault in referbish

Inspected a 1940's referb this morning. Very well done. Started working on the report and something in the back of my mine keep bugging me .... then (light bulb) I didn't see any Arc Faults. Am I wrong????? Permit this year, new panel and Wiring (stolen copper) shouldn't they have installed AFCI's with the new box. Am I just crazy?
Thanks Guys
Tony

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Originally Posted by Anthony Alderman

Inspected a 1940's referb this morning. Very well done. Started working on the report and something in the back of my mine keep bugging me .... then (light bulb) I didn't see any Arc Faults. Am I wrong????? Permit this year, new panel and Wiring (stolen copper) shouldn't they have installed AFCI's with the new box. Am I just crazy?
Thanks Guys
Tony

All new wiring? I would say yes. It falls under new work.

If it was truly "new circuits", as in new wiring or additional circuits, then yes, AFCI protection.

Also don't forget the Tamper Resistant receptacles.

Yes to all of the above.
Thanks
Tony

Is this one of the ares that has not adopted a code requiring AFCI's or amended the NEC requirements? I have heard of several areas that have exempted the AFCI requirements.

No...they are defiantly required here.

If a permit was pulled and the inspector signed off on it, he being AHJ for that area has made a statement that he is NOT requiring them...has he not?

IMHO AFCI is not a solution found by caring companies to help stop house fires! It is high priced non perfected technology whose true purpose is to fill the pockets of the companies that make them and they have been shoved down our throats by highly paid lobbyists using irrational fear as their weapon!

I'll install them because it's the law, but I am going to rant about them to every inspector on every job that requires them and every time I see a post about them until the technology is perfected and the price is brought down to reality!

Don't hold back Lou. Tell us how you really feel.

I've never checked the price of individual AFCI breakers. How much are they a pop?

Originally Posted by Lou Romano

If a permit was pulled and the inspector signed off on it, he being AHJ for that area has made a statement that he is NOT requiring them...has he not?

Nope.

He may have, just like all of us and like everyone else, ... simply "missed it" - that does happen.

IMHO AFCI is not a solution found by caring companies to help stop house fires! It is high priced non perfected technology whose true purpose is to fill the pockets of the companies that make them and they have been shoved down our throats by highly paid lobbyists using irrational fear as their weapon!

The very same thing was said about GFCIs when they first came out ... so, you are also against GFCI protection too, I take it?

I'll install them because it's the law, but I am going to rant about them to every inspector on every job that requires them and every time I see a post about them until the technology is perfected and the price is brought down to reality!

Just like electricians did when GFCIs first came out - install the GFCI, pass inspection, then remove the GFCIs.

Makes sense to me to NOT protect your clients when NEW THINGS COME OUT --- guess we need to take out seat belts, and air bags, and all the other COSTLY NEW TECHNOLOGY items which are of limited value too, huh?

It's more than just the cost of the Arc Fault device! In addition that expense you have to change the way you wire the whole house! MWBC's with common neutrals cannot be used because the arc fault requires individual neutrals for each circuit like a GFCI! That means you can't use 14/3 or 12/3 cable for 2 circuits any more! Now you have to run 14/2 or 12/2 for each individual home run and run twice the amount of wire! That's more labor cost too!

You can get cable that has 2 circuit conductors and 2 neutrals as well as other combinations but it is not common and the laws of supply and demand apply making it again more expensive.

So that's more money for the breaker, more money for the wiring and more money for the labor!

On top of that there are going to be many call backs to replace faulty AFCI's (this is already happening)! I have to warranty their non perfected technology! Of course they will replace the defective units but they will run me through the ringer proving to them it's not my fault and whose going to pay for my time? Not manufacturer! Not the customer! Me that's who! How do I incorporate that into the cost? I can't so I lose!

We're not talking about a couple bucks here! Why should we have to pay for the process of the manufacturer's perfecting their technology?

To Jerry!

I am not against GFCI or AFCI or any safety device that is perfected to the point where it's is feasble to supply and install! But you're absolutely right about that happening when GFCI was introduced and shoved down our throats without being perfected! That's what I am totally against, having to pay for the process of perfecting a device that I am forced to use when it is still basically in the prototype stage!

You're a wise man Jerry, I respect your knowledge and ability to express yourself! But your thinking on this issue is the irrational fear weapon I speak of!

You say...if it saves lives we have to use it, no question asked!
I say...it saves lives, OK prove to me it works in all the applications you are telling me I have to use it in, work out the bugs on your dime and then make it law!

Originally Posted by Lou Romano

To Jerry!

I am not against GFCI or AFCI or any safety device that is perfected to the point where it's is feasble to supply and install!

You mean like AFCI breakers. Then why are you bellyaching about them?

Your posts are contradicting themselves: either you are, or you are not, for AFCIs. Which is it?

But you're absolutely right about that happening when GFCI was introduced and shoved down our throats without being perfected! That's what I am totally against, having to pay for the process of perfecting a device that I am forced to use when it is still basically in the prototype stage!

Soooo ... you would rather pay 3 times as much AFTER they are perfected (to allow the manufacturers recoup their R&D costs) than pay 1/3 as much as the bugs are worked out? I see ... I don't believe it, but I see ...

Lou most manufactures have combination type AFCI's that can use shared neutrals such as this from GE.

http://www.geindustrial.com/publibrary/checkout/DET-719?TNR=Application%20and%20Technical|DET-719|generic

I agree we were forced to test AFCI's for the manufactures at our cost I insalled many square D AFCI's that were recalled and never changed because we could not agree on a cost with manufacturer. I did however send them the information to have someone else change them.

I was under the impression from a previous thread on this topic, the requirement to install these devices was withdrawn in the latest code because of issues with the devices. Is this true?

Paul

Thanks for the info! Much appreciated, I will look into this and take it for a test ride!

Jerry,

I would much prefer to pay 3 times the amount for the AFCI breaker after it is proven and the bugs worked out than pay 10 times more to prove it for them! How is that right or fair? You just said plain as day that the contractor should pay for the R&D for the company that is making the profit from it??? Why don't I just mail them a check every week? Wouldn't that be simpler? At least I could get a tax credit for my "charitable donation". I bet you wouldn't be so charitable if it was coming out of your pocket!

Jerry what he saying is he doesn't want want to pickup the R&D costs so he would rather pay 4 times the cost for a bonafide product because he could then pass the cost on to the customer as a known entity. Defective product replacement should include compensation for replacement time & reasonable labor. It also helps manufactures not to bring items to market before their time. Every time we install one we charge 10% more than a conventional breaker for the what if, so the R&D is passed on to the customer.

Thank you Phil, you are much better at diplomacy than I!

BTW Lou you can turn the manufacture's shortcoming's into an added valued engineered cost benefit to you and the customer since the failure rate is typically less than 10% so you will cheerfully come to replace those defective products, because you are getting paid to do so and it is no reflection in the quality of your work if in fact the breaker is the sole cause of the problem.

Phil, I'd love to hear how you manage that! I can tell you in the 34 years I have been pretending to be an electrician I have never, not once been reimbursed by the manufacturer for my time to replace a defective part! I have added the following to the backside of my invoices.

Items not covered by warranty:
A. Light bulbs, fluorescent ballasts, photo controls or any devices containing electronic circuitry of any kind, such as, but not limited to, electronic timers, lighting dimmers, fan speed controls, ground fault circuit interrupters (GFCI), and arc fault circuit interrupters (AFCI). The aforementioned items as well as any piece of equipment or part containing electronic circuitry will be warranted as per their respective manufacturer excluding labor costs after thirty (30) calendar days from the original date of installation. If any of the aforementioned items should prove to be defective after thirty days from the original date of installation and Customer chooses to have Contractor repair or replace such defective item/s Customer agrees to pay all labor and material costs associated with such repair or replacement of defective item/s, part or piece of equipment.
B. Materials, equipment, parts and/or any items installed by Contractor that are supplied to contractor by customer or through customer's resources.