Results 1 to 20 of 20
  1. #1
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
    mathew stouffer Guest

    Default Correct tap block installation?

    These taps were wrapped in tape as you can see. They are suppling a 40amp breaker for a hot tub. I am not sure what to look for regarding this type of installation, even though I could not see much under all the tape. Its a 200 amp service.

    Similar Threads:
    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Inspection Referral SOC

  2. #2
    Jon mackay's Avatar
    Jon mackay Guest

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    Improper electrical connection. call it out to be corrected.


  3. #3
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
    mathew stouffer Guest

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    Specifically, what makes it incorrect. All bundle of tape the size of a small childs head


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    What do you think is right with this MCB and the "hot tub" wiring?


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    Is that a completely new install on a new house, or a service change on an older house and the feeders were too short so split bolt connectors were used to lengthen the conductors to reach the new main disconnect?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Is that a completely new install on a new house, or a service change on an older house and the feeders were too short so split bolt connectors were used to lengthen the conductors to reach the new main disconnect?
    and that would make a difference how?

    (I'm not concerned about 75 deg C (</= 05) use vs. 60 deg C use (08) it will go back to 75C use in '11).

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 06-23-2010 at 05:47 PM.

  7. #7
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
    mathew stouffer Guest

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    Jerry, the home was built in 94 but I don't know the answer to your question. HG what is an MCB?


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    and that would make a difference how?

    Jeez, the Old Guy certainly does not have the mind he says he used to have ...

    Dear Mr. Watson, if can hear me ...

    It makes a difference in that the feeders conductors have been added on to, and *I* for one was curious enough about that to ask.

    Does it make a difference on how things are wired? Nope, but I did not ask for that.

    Does it make a difference on WHY things were wired the way they were? Yep, and that is why I did ask. Sometimes knowing "the why" causes one to reflect on "other things" which may come up further into the inspection.

    IF that was a NEW (totally NEW on a NEW construction house), then the electrical contractor DOING THAT would bring the ENTIRE WIRING OF THE HOUSE into question.

    IF, however, that was a NEW SERVICE only, then at least that electrical contractor probably DID NOT F$%K UP the ENTIRE wiring system of the house.

    Jeez, man, use your brain.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    Jerry, the home was built in 94 but I don't know the answer to your question.
    Mat,

    That did, I suspect, answer my question.

    I doubt that service equipment is from 1994.

    Next question: How far away inside is the panel that is feeding?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  10. #10
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
    mathew stouffer Guest

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    I woud say 15 to 20 feet.


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    I woud say 15 to 20 feet.

    That's probably why the electrician added on to it there instead of going back to the panel.

    Looks like split bolt connectors were used to tap off another set of feeder conductors going to the hot tub.

    In addition to the basic wiring problems (neutral in same terminal as ground), the split bolt connection itself being suspect, the exterior tap rules would come into play, making the next question of: How long it that tap? (How far to the hot tub/disconnect/etc.?)

    Find the appropriate length of the tap and follow down what is allowed for that length of tap. Below the code section is an example.

    From the 2008 NEC. (underlining and bold are mine)
    - 240.21 Location in Circuit.
    - - Overcurrent protection shall be provided in each ungrounded circuit conductor and shall be located at the point where the conductors receive their supply except as specified in 240.21(A) through (H). Conductors supplied under the provisions of 240.21(A) through (H) shall not supply another conductor except through an overcurrent protective device meeting the requirements of 240.4.
    - - - (A) Branch-Circuit Conductors. Branch-circuit tap conductors meeting the requirements specified in 210.19 shall be permitted to have overcurrent protection as specified in 210.20.
    - - - (B) Feeder Taps. Conductors shall be permitted to be tapped, without overcurrent protection at the tap, to a feeder as specified in 240.21(B)(1) through (B)(5). The provisions of 240.4(B) shall not be permitted for tap conductors.
    - - - - (1) Taps Not over 3 m (10 ft) Long. Where the length of the tap conductors does not exceed 3 m (10 ft) and the tap conductors comply with all of the following:
    - - - - - (1) The ampacity of the tap conductors is
    - - - - - - a. Not less than the combined calculated loads on the circuits supplied by the tap conductors, and
    - - - - - - b. Not less than the rating of the device supplied by the tap conductors or not less than the rating of the overcurrent protective device at the termination of the tap conductors.
    - - - - - (2) The tap conductors do not extend beyond the switchboard, panelboard, disconnecting means, or control devices they supply.
    - - - - - (3) Except at the point of connection to the feeder, the tap conductors are enclosed in a raceway, which shall extend from the tap to the enclosure of an enclosed switchboard, panelboard, or control devices, or to the back of an open switchboard.
    - - - - - (4) For field installations where the tap conductors leave the enclosure or vault in which the tap is made, the rating of the overcurrent device on the line side of the tap conductors shall not exceed 10 times the ampacity of the tap conductor.
    - - - - - - FPN: For overcurrent protection requirements for panelboards, see 408.36.
    - - - - (2) Taps Not over 7.5 m (25 ft) Long. Where the length of the tap conductors does not exceed 7.5 m (25 ft) and the tap conductors comply with all the following:
    - - - - - (1) The ampacity of the tap conductors is not less than one-third of the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the feeder conductors.
    - - - - - (2) The tap conductors terminate in a single circuit breaker or a single set of fuses that limit the load to the ampacity of the tap conductors. This device shall be permitted to supply any number of additional overcurrent devices on its load side.
    - - - - - (3) The tap conductors are protected from physical damage by being enclosed in an approved raceway or by other approved means.
    - - - - (3) Taps Supplying a Transformer [Primary Plus Secondary Not over 7.5 m (25 ft) Long]. Where the tap conductors supply a transformer and comply with all the following conditions:
    - - - - - (1) The conductors supplying the primary of a transformer have an ampacity at least one-third the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the feeder conductors.
    - - - - - (2) The conductors supplied by the secondary of the transformer shall have an ampacity that is not less than the value of the primary-to-secondary voltage ratio multiplied by one-third of the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the feeder conductors.
    - - - - - (3) The total length of one primary plus one secondary conductor, excluding any portion of the primary conductor that is protected at its ampacity, is not over 7.5 m (25 ft).
    - - - - - (4) The primary and secondary conductors are protected from physical damage by being enclosed in an approved raceway or by other approved means.
    - - - - - (5) The secondary conductors terminate in a single circuit breaker or set of fuses that limit the load current to not more than the conductor ampacity that is permitted by 310.15.
    - - - - (4) Taps over 7.5 m (25 ft) Long. Where the feeder is in a high bay manufacturing building over 11 m (35 ft) high at walls and the installation complies with all the following conditions:
    - - - - - (1) Conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the systems.
    - - - - - (2) The tap conductors are not over 7.5 m (25 ft) long horizontally and not over 30 m (100 ft) total length.
    - - - - - (3) The ampacity of the tap conductors is not less than one-third the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the feeder conductors.
    - - - - - (4) The tap conductors terminate at a single circuit breaker or a single set of fuses that limit the load to the ampacity of the tap conductors. This single overcurrent device shall be permitted to supply any number of additional overcurrent devices on its load side.
    - - - - - (5) The tap conductors are protected from physical damage by being enclosed in an approved raceway or by other approved means.
    - - - - - (6) The tap conductors are continuous from end-to-end and contain no splices.
    - - - - - (7) The tap conductors are sized 6 AWG copper or 4 AWG aluminum or larger.
    - - - - - (8) The tap conductors do not penetrate walls, floors, or ceilings.
    - - - - - (9) The tap is made no less than 9 m (30 ft) from the floor.
    - - - - (5) Outside Taps of Unlimited Length. Where the conductors are located outdoors of a building or structure, except at the point of load termination, and comply with all of the following conditions:
    - - - - - (1) The conductors are protected from physical damage in an approved manner.
    - - - - - (2) The conductors terminate at a single circuit breaker or a single set of fuses that limit the load to the ampacity of the conductors. This single overcurrent device shall be permitted to supply any number of additional overcurrent devices on its load side.
    - - - - - (3) The overcurrent device for the conductors is an integral part of a disconnecting means or shall be located immediately adjacent thereto.
    - - - - - (4) The disconnecting means for the conductors is installed at a readily accessible location complying with one of the following:
    - - - - - - a. Outside of a building or structure
    - - - - - - b. Inside, nearest the point of entrance of the conductors
    - - - - - - c. Where installed in accordance with 230.6, nearest the point of entrance of the conductors.

    ~~~~~~~~~~

    Example:
    - - - - (1) Taps Not over 3 m (10 ft) Long. Where the length of the tap conductors does not exceed 3 m (10 ft) and the tap conductors comply with all of the following:
    - - - - - (1) The ampacity of the tap conductors is
    - - - - - - a. Not less than the combined calculated loads on the circuits supplied by the tap conductors, and
    - - - - - - b. Not less than the rating of the device supplied by the tap conductors or not less than the rating of the overcurrent protective device at the termination of the tap conductors.
    - - - - - (2) The tap conductors do not extend beyond the switchboard, panelboard, disconnecting means, or control devices they supply.
    - - - - - (3) Except at the point of connection to the feeder, the tap conductors are enclosed in a raceway, which shall extend from the tap to the enclosure of an enclosed switchboard, panelboard, or control devices, or to the back of an open switchboard.
    - - - - - (4) For field installations where the tap conductors leave the enclosure or vault in which the tap is made, the rating of the overcurrent device on the line side of the tap conductors shall not exceed 10 times the ampacity of the tap conductor.
    - - - - - - FPN: For overcurrent protection requirements for panelboards, see 408.36.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    601

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    Doesn't look to me like any of the wire is big enough forwhat it's doing.

    The hot tub stuff might be if the breaker for the tub is within 10 feet of the service disconnect.

    The feeder looks to be several sizes to small for 200 AMPs - like 1/0 or so. Should be 4/0.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    Doesn't look to me like any of the wire is big enough forwhat it's doing.

    The hot tub stuff might be if the breaker for the tub is within 10 feet of the service disconnect.

    The feeder looks to be several sizes to small for 200 AMPs - like 1/0 or so. Should be 4/0.

    Bill,

    If the feeder to the hot tub is suitable for 40 amps (without additional information I am presuming it is), and the 40 amp breaker is at the end of the feeder to the hot tub, and the feeder length (terminal to terminal) is less than 10 feet, and the feeders to the hot tub terminate at that 40 amp breaker, and the tap conductors are in a raceway, and the breaker protecting the tap end is 200 amp (which is less than 10 times the ampacity of the tap conductor) and ...

    Did I cover all of the "and" requirements yet?

    ... then, did I leave anything out or would meeting all those "and" requirements work? (setting aside the other potential issues for right now)

    Sometimes my eyes glaze over when I go through those tap rules and I miss some "and" requirements.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    601

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    Yeah, probably got most of them if not all. I just see two things that could be issues and boil it down to those two. If they fail muster it doesn't matter what else is required or right (or not). Actually, the distance decides both of these.

    Truthfully, I'm more concerned about what the feeder size is in the pictures. Hot tub is probably OK if the distance isn't an issue.


  15. #15
    John Steinke's Avatar
    John Steinke Guest

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    Take a simple split bolt, wrap it in tape, and before you know it you have something that looks like a baseball .... especially if the electrician used the trade practice of using putty, self fusing tape, and a final wrap of shiny tape.

    Mention 'tap' connections, though, and the means of splicing is the least important detail. You need to know how much power is supplied, how much is being diverted, and the wire lengths. Overall, making such a judgement is well beyond the scope of a home inspection and outside the competence of the person. (Remember, 'competence' is a matter of what the law says you're competent to do, and has no bearing on how smart you are.) Unless you have an electrical contractors' license or masters' ticket, this call is beyond your competence.


  16. #16
    Lou Romano's Avatar
    Lou Romano Guest

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    I don't think that is a splice to extend the wires to the breaker I think it is only to tap the wiring for the hot tub (which obviously does not meet any of the tap rules regardless of where the next breaker in line is).

    If you look at the splice, the wire feeding from the main breaker appears to run straight through the split bolt. If it were a splice it would be offset as one wire lays on top of the other in the split bolt!


  17. #17
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
    mathew stouffer Guest

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    It is not a splice, it was for the hot tub, that's it.


  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,252

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lou Romano View Post
    I think it is only to tap the wiring for the hot tub (which obviously does not meet any of the tap rules regardless of where the next breaker in line is).

    That is what we are saying it is, except that you must know something we do not to know that is "obviously does not meet any of the tap rules". It "possibly" does not meet the tap rules, and maybe even "probably" does not (even that, though, there is not enough information known to know for sure), but "obviously"???

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  19. #19
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
    mathew stouffer Guest

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    The only reason I know it's not a splice is becuase I inspected the house about two years prior and the new owner put in the hot tub. There is a disconnect within ten feet but the next disconnect is probably 50 feet away. The service disconnect is 200 amps, house built in 94, hot tub breaker is 40amp at first disconnect.


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,549

    Default Re: Correct tap block installation?

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    The only reason I know it's not a splice is becuase I inspected the house about two years prior and the new owner put in the hot tub. There is a disconnect within ten feet but the next disconnect is probably 50 feet away. The service disconnect is 200 amps, house built in 94, hot tub breaker is 40amp at first disconnect.
    Given all the ways that that could be wrong, did you call for an electrician to check it?

    I'd want the split bolts looked at if I was buying that thing. I see copper tapped to Al, for one.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •