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  1. #66
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Nope, all wet.

    Offer subject to acceptance of inspection report, if performed in x days, etc. etc.

    HI inspects, reports, condition and status. Advises where indicated additional specific inquiry/investigation/specific professional or qualified trade inspection/review/repair, etc. may be necessary.

    That's all part of the due dilligence for the buyer (with stars in eyes looking at they don't know what about the condition of the home, just how it looks on the surface, or if more knowledgable and explored all knooks and crannies before making an offer, making sure they didn't miss something while being dazzled about the propect of buying it) and a bit of caveat emptor (let the buyer beware).

    Armed with that professional, thourough, and to standards of practice, Inspection Report, the buyer may then chose to accept the report on the home and proceed with the purchase as originally offered, withdraw the offer and/or submit a counter offer, or new or ammended offer based upon findings and considerations of the Home Inspection (and possible subsequent additional, specific inspections, quotations, consultations, etc.. How that might be structured (counter offer) is obviously with some input and facilitation of the realtor, unfortunately with many first-time and less savy buyers, with only the input of the realtor (who actually writes the ammended offer and supposedly solely in the interests of their buyer client in mind !).

    However, a SAVY buyer already has a relationship with a real estate attorney who has no conflict (and was NOT referred by the REALTOR), and has his/her offer contingent on his attorney's acceptance, and also utilizes the real estate attorney to fashion the language of the withdrawl of offer, ammended offer, new offer, or counteroffer.

    Should the buyer wish to proceed with the original offer, without ammendment, that's the buyer's choice. Should the buyer wish to withdraw their offer, and submit a revised (lesser, or restructured - say perhaps funds placed in escrow for repairs after closing, etc.) offer, again their choice. The realtor should not be advising clients against the client's interests - but they do all the time, for the realtor's interest is to facilitate the sale at the highest sales price, as quickly as possible and with zero contingencies, funds held in escrow, etc.

    The "illusion" or rather dellusion of "buyer's agents" is a false one. A house of cards on an ethical scale, nope make that a house of mirrors.

    Buyer's agents and used car salesmen. Not "known" for their ethical character. Spit and polish, puffery spewing, fast talking, commission grabbing, pushy, bossy, greedy, etc.? Yep.

    Lets face it bkpcy law got complicated with phased in "reform", penalties and consequences to the attny for... No wonder bailed by 2005. By 2005 credit fast and loose, and WA market exploding. Flips, expodential increases, jobs booming. Homes sold themselves, bidding wars, offers over listing price, credit flowed, liars loans, no verification, bing, bang boom. Then well, we know. REality bites. Looks like it started biting KK earlier than most in market, has spent a LOT of time blog commenting, trolling, topic board posting, around on the www since early 07 at least.

    Then he showed up here. Took months to get it out that he was a realtor, but made himself out to be a long experienced one, then when he's nailed on the truth, he's being bullied. He's the victim. Yet he's still HERE, and NOW he SPEAKS FOR THE OP! (The O.P. KNEW the issue, the OP was just verifying the "realtor's", "seller's" or "other's" recharacterization or that justification of the bathroom as a laundry room didn't "hold water", the panel in "bathroom" was still a over-current protection bearing panel in a bathroom!).

    Put a fork in him (K.K.) whether he thinks he's DONE or NOT, because he's beyond redemption (he's an ex-practicing-personal-bankruptcy-attorney-recently-turned-REALTOR for goodness sakes!).

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-13-2010 at 04:12 PM.
    Inspection Referral SOC

  2. #67
    John Steinke's Avatar
    John Steinke Guest

    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    This thread has drifted far off course, yet has also raised a few interesting topics- topics that deserve their own threads.

    I plan to start one ... I'll put it in 'Electrical" for ease of finding, though that's probably not the best place. Let the mods move it after awhile.

    I encourage others to do likewise.


  3. #68
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    2,446

    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Kary L. Krismer (Kary Krismer)
    krismer@kw.com

    After 20 years of practicing law in Seattle, and the graduation of his daughter from college, Kary L. Krismer joined his wife in the real estate business as a licensed real estate agent with Keller Williams North Seattle. There Kary is part of a full service four agent team that specializes in single-family-residential properties, primarily in King and Snohomish Counties.

    Kary intends to focus his blogging efforts on legal, economic and technology issues that are relevant to both agents and consumers alike. Never blindly accepting the common wisdom, Kary will address topics in ways that will explain the reasons why things happen that many never consider, and might even find difficult to accept.

    Kary is a lifetime Washington resident. Before becoming licensed, Kary earned degrees in both accounting and law from the University of Washington. His passions include technology, economics, and most of all cats.


  4. #69
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann View Post
    Kary L. Krismer (Kary Krismer)
    krismer@kw.com

    After 20 years of practicing law in Seattle, and the graduation of his daughter from college, Kary L. Krismer joined his wife in the real estate business as a licensed real estate agent with Keller Williams North Seattle. There Kary is part of a full service four agent team that specializes in single-family-residential properties, primarily in King and Snohomish Counties.

    Kary intends to focus his blogging efforts on legal, economic and technology issues that are relevant to both agents and consumers alike. Never blindly accepting the common wisdom, Kary will address topics in ways that will explain the reasons why things happen that many never consider, and might even find difficult to accept.

    Kary is a lifetime Washington resident. Before becoming licensed, Kary earned degrees in both accounting and law from the University of Washington. His passions include technology, economics, and most of all cats.
    ??????????????/


  5. #70
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Knoxville, TN
    Posts
    2,446

    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Google search


  6. #71
    John Steinke's Avatar
    John Steinke Guest

    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Thank you for that brilliant detective work. Good heavens - he LIKES cats!!!!

    I knew there was something I liked about him....


  7. #72
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Asotin, WA
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    As to the rest of the quoted material, as I've already explained, I wanted to understand this issue so that if I ever found a panel in a bathroom, I could explain to the client the concerns prior to their making an offer. But in any case, I'm hardly going to get out of the way of an inspector. I have to understand their entire report because I have to help the buyers address the report in their negotiations with the seller, or visa versa..
    Kary, you might to exercise a bit of caution regarding your activities as a Realtor. I doubt tthat you are crossing over the line to inspection but you are certainly very close to it.

    (1) Beginning September 1, 2009, a person shall not engage in or conduct, or advertise or hold himself or herself out as engaging in or conducting, the business of or acting in the capacity of a home inspector within this state without first obtaining a license as provided in this chapter.

    If a client made a decision based on infromation you offered prior to the offer regarding the presence of a panel in the bathroom as either defective or, based on your comparisons to utility rooms "not that big a deal", you may have an issue.

    When I teach at real estate classes, I always remind the prospective agents that the home inspector is there to fully inform their clients as to the physical condition home's visible components. This acts to minimize their liability and improve their ability to serve their clients.

    It does not always make the deal go through more smoothly. That isn't part of our job nor should it be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kary Krismer View Post
    Rather obviously many of the HIs here don't have a clue what a real estate agent does, or even what happens with their report after they send it out. What ultimately happens depends on the market and a lot of other factors the inspector would have no reason to know. But the bottom line is the agents do need to be heavily involved with inspections.
    Kary, is sounds as though you harbor a great deal of resentment towards inspectors. I think that you will find that most experienced inspectors have a great deal of respect for experienced agents that take good care of their clients (and that is usually why they are "experienced").

    Often times we know exactly what happens to our reports after we eliver them. Often,they get ignored until after the deal closes and then we get calls on why the furnace doesn't work or shingles blowing off. In both those (actual) cases, the agent involved told the client that the home inspector (me) was over-reacting. Fortunately for the agents, this side of the state is less litigious than the west side.

    Now, back to the panel question:

    1. Bathrooms often have wet floors and wet naked bodies - potential safety hazards - whereas this is substantially less likely in a utility room.
    2. The condesation from bath and shower fixtures can create a corrosion issue for the panel.
    3. Half baths may lack tub or shower fixtures. They also lack space. The clearances for the panel should be 36 inches in front and 30 inches to either side. Hard to accomplish in a half bath.
    4. Full baths have all sorts of items in the way blocking access as well - showers, toilets, cabinetry.
    5. There is no way to adequately provide GFCI protection to the mains in the panel.
    6. Bathrooms are much more utilized by children than utility rooms. Children are less likely to consider the shock hazard of spraying the walls with water or flipping breakers while wet than an adult. Well, less than most adults but the Darwin Awards are a counter-argument.

    Now some -but not all - of these also apply to utility rooms. To date, the individuals that do the heavy lifting on assessing risk and writing code have not seen fit to include these. In a relative weighting of hazards, it may simply be that there is insufficient need to prohibit the panel from being in a utility room. If there have been no injuries due to placement the utility room, there is no actionable hazard to mitigate (though there may be a potential hazard).

    Paul Duffau


  8. #73
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Southeastern Virginia
    Posts
    17

    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    After the initial post, it seems KK is asking why a certian code has been written or implimented.
    First off most Home Inspectors do not cite code in their reports. Whether you agree with this or not, it does not change the fact codes are not normally listed or referenced in Home Inspection reports.
    Also most Home Inspectors are not involved in the wrtting or updating of codes.
    Last and more important or relevant, if you have a question about a specific code, why not contact your state code reps (who addopt the codes) or the ICC who writes the codes?

    Jamie R Wilks
    Virginia Certified Home Inspector

  9. #74
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Nazareth, Pa 18064
    Posts
    45

    Default Re: Panel in bathroom?

    Seems like K K spends a lot of time raising a fuss about everything.
    When does he have time to sell houses?
    I always thought good lawyers made more money than good realtors and didn't have to work every weekend or evening to do it.
    Apparently I was mistaken.


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