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  1. #1
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Grounds and neutrals sharing terminal

    This place was built in the late 70's. The grounds and neutrals are sharing a bar, which appears to be insolated. There is an equipment grounding conductor but there did not appear to be a grounded conductor in the panel. It was hard to see, the thing was full. Got the double tap, thoughts on the rest?

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  2. #2
    Richard Stanley's Avatar
    Richard Stanley Guest

    Default Re: Grounds and neutrals sharing terminal

    I'm not seeing the double tap on the bus. Looks like overfill on the box tho.


  3. #3
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
    mathew stouffer Guest

    Default Re: Grounds and neutrals sharing terminal

    Last pic, double tap for hot tub.


  4. #4
    Richard Stanley's Avatar
    Richard Stanley Guest

    Default Re: Grounds and neutrals sharing terminal

    Oh yeah. 'wasn't looking at that one. Wrong.


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    Chicago IL
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    Default Re: Grounds and neutrals sharing terminal

    Last pic, doesn't look like there is any actual connector where the wires pass through the box on the back wall

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  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
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    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
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    Default Re: Grounds and neutrals sharing terminal

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    This place was built in the late 70's. The grounds and neutrals are sharing a bar, which appears to be insolated. There is an equipment grounding conductor but there did not appear to be a grounded conductor in the panel. It was hard to see, the thing was full. Got the double tap, thoughts on the rest?
    Many, but some are not "fit to print".

    Such myriad of things, again not sure where you want to start.

    Exterior unsealed, un bushed, feeder cable un-sheathed, for any distance ifor the enclosure penetration, though knock out, for main power feeder, and all the issues that accompany same.

    Interior overstuffed panel many concerns.

    Mounting method, installation/type of enclosure/panel.
    Number of disconnects.

    We could start with the known hazards of breakers in that (now top row) orientation, the reason wiring space/gutter space in panels were increased and percentages of fill in same reduced. Shall we jamb a multitude of ecgs in a single lug or terminal,
    Identification (color) of ungrounded conductors for branch circuits, etc. blowing a gasket.

    The identified safety concerns and hazards of a 3-wire feeder (no egc) to a hot-tub, especially one in an exterior installation. Said conduit body positioned to drain condensation into the service panel.

    You know what, I'm overwhelmed.

    Most of the multitude of issues have been covered before on your own threads, the last question on your OP this string was just too open-ended for me, I'm on overload looking at those pictures. At what level of specificity or direction are you looking for? Deficient? yes; safety issues, Yes; age of equipment, suitability for purpose intended, some improper even if original, installation issues for time period? Yes.

    Defer to evaluation, load calcs, Remediations for safety, and those necessitated by the Removal & Replacement actions.

    Thoughts In summary, and printable, "ptooey".

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 07-23-2010 at 12:40 PM.

  7. #7
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
    mathew stouffer Guest

    Default Re: Grounds and neutrals sharing terminal

    Thanks H.G, I hope the pictures didn't corrupt your weekend


  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
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    Default Re: Grounds and neutrals sharing terminal

    You're welcome; and of course not!


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Chico,Ca
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    423

    Default Re: Grounds and neutrals sharing terminal

    What is there is 10 Lbs. of manure in a 5 Lb. bag, that is one reason that I hate twin breakers,being of 70's vintage that would have been the last hurrah on the breakers being oriented with "ON" being down on the top row depending on when a particular edition of the NEC was adopted as 240-81 1st appeared in the 1975 NEC & in the 1971 NEC art. 240 did not go beyond 240-30. There are plenty of issues w/ that panel....


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring City/Surrounding Philadelphia area
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    3,473

    Default Re: Grounds and neutrals sharing terminal

    I love the braided rope of grounding conductors. Very efficient.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    South-West Michigan
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    469

    Post Re: Grounds and neutrals sharing terminal

    The only thing that I have the time to say about "the rest" is "get a licensed electrician to review and correct the multiple safety hazards and improper wiring at the electrical panel". Wow, what a disaster. Could it have been wired by a "certified engineer" on a weekend?

    Randall Aldering GHI BAOM MSM
    Housesmithe Inspection
    www.housesmithe.com

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