Thread: light in shower

did an inspection today and there was a light in the bath/shower stall, in the celing, is that ok?

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What kind of fixture was it? Was it rated for a damp or wet location? Was this a stand-alone shower or a tub and shower combo?

Correctly rated fixtures are installed above a shower or tub all the time.

What kind of light?

If the bulb had a lens cover over it, it is probably a damp rated fixture that would be acceptable.

If the bulb was exposed, not acceptable.

rick

Originally Posted by Rick Hurst

If the bulb was exposed, not acceptable.

rick

Not neccesarily. There are open trims for recessed lights that are listed for use over showers.

Did it look like this fixture? If so, its a approved damp rated fixture.

rick

it was not a recessed lite, my camera was full so i couldnt get a picture

Wednesday

Before it is asked.....yes, the outlet was GFCI

Originally Posted by Ted Menelly

Wednesday

Before it is asked.....yes, the outlet was GFCI

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If that is a TV it can not be mounted in a damp location. No matter what type of outlet.
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No TV Manufacture Allows This Type of Installation thus it does not comply with Manufactures Installation Instructions.
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Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

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If that is a TV it can not be mounted in a damp location. No matter what type of outlet.
.
No TV Manufacture Allows This Type of Installation thus it does not comply with Manufactures Installation Instructions.
.

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I Stand Corrected there appears to be 3 Manufactures at this time All in the UK.
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A Guide to Fog Free Waterproof Bathroom TV | BathroomAndKitchenGuide.com
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Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

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If that is a TV it can not be mounted in a damp location. No matter what type of outlet.
.
No TV Manufacture Allows This Type of Installation thus it does not comply with Manufactures Installation Instructions.
.

I was only mocking what may have been said before it was said about the GFCI.

GFCIs go bad and do not trip I test them all the time. Power, no tripping. I love the idea of the tele, receptacle for the tele and the switches on each end of the tub. You might as well throw in the cable as well.

Not the brightest idea I have seen in a while.

Leave everything else alone, allowed or not. GFCIs go bad. That about cancels everything else out.

Regardless about the TV ratings The receptacle IS NOT ALLOWED THERE GFCI or Not.
2008 NEC Article 406.8(C) -
Bathtub and Shower Space. Receptacles shall not be installed within or directly over a bathtub or shower stall.

Now to answer the original posters question.

2008 NEC Article 410.10(D)
Bathtub and shower areas. No parts of cord - connected luminaires,chain-, cable-,or cord suspended luminaires,lighting track,pendants, or ceiling suspended ( paddle) fans shall be located with in a zone measured 3 feet horizontally and 8 feet vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshold. This zone is all encompassing and includes the space directly over the tub or shower stall. Luminaires located within the actual outside dimension of the bathtub or shower stall to a height of 8 feet vertically from the top of the bathtub rim or shower threshold shall be marked for damp locations, or marked for wet locations where subject to shower spray.

So according to article 410.10 ( D) - a surface mounted light fixture IS allowed as long as it is not pendant,chain or cord hung, a paddle fan or track lights. In other words it must be securely fastned in place surface mount light fixture that is not suspended in any way.

BUT heres the kicker -- The fixture must be labeled for wet / damp locations!
As far as luminaires in a bathtub / shower being required to be GFCI protected - It is only require by code if the installation instructions specify it.

Ted's bather killer LCD TV mount is definately not allowed. Note the Period.The stored capacitance in same is deadly, on or off, plugged in to power or not, regardless as to where the power supply is hidden or plugged in, its presence there as photographed is not allowed.(If you ever wondered why you don't have to wait 2-5 minutes to get a viewable lit picture on same you'd perhaps understand why).Why such off topic was added to this string, I have no idea. Its inclusion here, DESPITE the claim the receptacle suppling the power supply to same might somehow deem the installation compliant or appropriate; however, needed to be rebutted: IT IS NOT ALLOWED, IT IS NOT SAFE, it is a life safety issue, non-compliant with listing or code for good reason - serious injury or death could occur.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Ted's bather killer LCD TV mount is definately not allowed. Note the Period.The stored capacitance in same is deadly, on or off, plugged in to power or not, regardless as to where the power supply is hidden or plugged in, its presence there as photographed is not allowed.(If you ever wondered why you don't have to wait 2-5 minutes to get a viewable lit picture on same you'd perhaps understand why).Why such off topic was added to this string, I have no idea. Its inclusion here, DESPITE the claim the receptacle suppling the power supply to same might somehow deem the installation compliant or appropriate; however, needed to be rebutted: IT IS NOT ALLOWED, IT IS NOT SAFE, it is a life safety issue, non-compliant with listing or code for good reason - serious injury or death could occur.

CRT's are a thing of the past H.G. (well, almost)

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

CRT's are a thing of the past H.G. (well, almost)

No kidding Vern Heiler, that's why I referred to the pictured as an LCD TV. Sheesh.

How do you think the thing is back lit instantly (starter for the fluorescent tube) when turned on (caps on the boards) and fully functional in considerably less than 3-5 minutes out of the box (caps from the PS)? You don't actually think there is no stored capacitance in an LCD flat screen TV with digital tuner, etc. do you? really?

There's enough to kill you especially if part of you and it are submerged together. Throw a bath salts cube in there to insure it happens quickly.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

No kidding Vern Heiler, that's why I referred to the pictured as an LCD TV. Sheesh.

How do you think the thing is back lit instantly (starter for the fluorescent tube) when turned on (caps on the boards) and fully functional in considerably less than 3-5 minutes out of the box (caps from the PS)? You don't actually think there is no stored capacitance in an LCD flat screen TV with digital tuner, etc. do you? really?

There's enough to kill you especially if part of you and it are submerged together. Throw a bath salts cube in there to insure it happens quickly.

When was the last time you replaced a starter? And do you really think a starter is a large cap?

It's a safe bet that the TV is not designred for over-the-tub use .... but it is always good to check one's assumptions. I didn't know of the British models, but I am aware of a Japanese model.

Here in the USA, Marquis Spas - one of the very few spa manufacturers who has UL list their products - markets outdoor hot tubs with TV sets built into them. It's very doable.

The location of the power source is relevant. One might even consider the plug on the back of the set as a receptacle.

Originally Posted by John Steinke

It's a safe bet that the TV is not designred for over-the-tub use .... but it is always good to check one's assumptions. I didn't know of the British models, but I am aware of a Japanese model.

Here in the USA, Marquis Spas - one of the very few spa manufacturers who has UL list their products - markets outdoor hot tubs with TV sets built into them. It's very doable.

The location of the power source is relevant. One might even consider the plug on the back of the set as a receptacle.

The receptacle for the tele was just behind and to the left of the tele.

Again. No matter how safe one makes an electronic device...........GFCIs fail and do not trip......you are dead........

Originally Posted by Vern Heiler

When was the last time you replaced a starter? And do you really think a starter is a large cap?

I am weary of your ignorance and immature combativeness. Your limitations are showing.

Nowhere did I indicate electrocution nor HIGH voltage (such as starting cap of a CRT), neither of which is necessary to cause death or anoxic injury.

Electric shock drowning, ever heard of it? If not educate YOURSELF.

It's referred to as electric shock drowning and not electrocution because there is no direct signs of physical injury from electricity. Lets start with AC and how that GFCI won't necessarily save you (and why hair driers have by voluntary standard in the US have an additional "protection" on the device):

For example, with AC 60 Hz, the victims in water CAN either lose muscle control if the current level is in the 0.01A to 0.02A range or suffer ventricular fibrillation at 0.05A to 0.06A current levels for a period of time, or if only for 2-3 sec in a body of natural fresh water using an assumed human body resistance of 300 ohms when immersed in fresh water — and assuming a current range through the human body where muscle control is lost in the range of 6mA to 30mA — and applying Ohm's law, the voltage necessary to cause a drowning in fresh water is in the range of 1.8V to 9V, 60 Hz AC.

Because victims typically show no sign of injury, many electric shock drownings are mislabeled as deaths attributable to alcohol intoxication or heart attack. Additionally, often attributed death as accident to trips, slips and falls head injury, resulting in loss of conciousness and drowning, rather than identifying the cause of the body to fall (thus striking head) and not be able to extracate from water (not loss of conciousness but loss of muscle control due to electric shock) and drowning (even in a shallow water basin face down!) or anoxia (lack of oxygen causing brain injury or death).

Oftentimes those drownings that are attributed to electric shock are only classified that way because of circumstantial evidence like great distress, multiple deaths, and a tingling sensation reported by the survivors.

Few scenes are preserved and subjected to forenisc investigation and analysis.

What do we often have now? Non-conductive drainage piping or isolated sections, non-conductive water piping or isolated sections, fiberglass/acrylic soaking tubs, sometimes CI or enameled steel, etc. A supporting frame if a hydro is bonded but not the water (unlike pools, etc.) isolated in the bath tub, baby in the sink apparently smiling never slips under water in hands of glove wearing caregiver administering bath blamed on SIDS, heart defect, or worse yet allegations of inflicted child abuse, in-line tankless electric water heater/recirculators, electric toothbrush chargers, shavers, timer circuits, logic boards, memory chips, programable functions in appliances, etc. throughout the kitchen, bath, etc. And a naive, misguided, overreliance on the funcationality and set limits of GFCI devices to save you from the hazards of body + water + electricity. The GFCI may halt the flow from the electrical system circuit but not from the device with stored energy.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

I am weary of your ignorance and immature combativeness. Your limitations are showing.

My ignorance or limitations? Please tell me where I can buy a "starting cap of a CRT"! (and if you meant to say "or a CRT" then tell me where I can buy a "starting cap"!)

Nowhere did I indicate electrocution nor HIGH voltage (such as starting cap of a CRT), neither of which is necessary to cause death or anoxic injury.

H.G. You are out of your element here. Stick to HI stuff. The rest of your post is drivel to hide behind. (Were you a lawyer, politician, or other spin master?)

Most of what you post is good information, but when you dive off into the dark side of fear mongering it waters down the credibility of your thoughtful statements.

Once unplugged, (as you suggested in one of your first posts) if the OP's TV fell into the tub you would have a better chance that Pamela Anderson would jump out of the screen and save you than to feel even a slight tingle.

By the way, I never said the installation was right! Just that it would not kill you due to capacitance.

Electric shock drowning, ever heard of it? If not educate YOURSELF.

It's referred to as electric shock drowning and not electrocution because there is no direct signs of physical injury from electricity. Lets start with AC and how that GFCI won't necessarily save you (and why hair driers have by voluntary standard in the US have an additional "protection" on the device):

For example, with AC 60 Hz, the victims in water CAN either lose muscle control if the current level is in the 0.01A to 0.02A range or suffer ventricular fibrillation at 0.05A to 0.06A current levels for a period of time, or if only for 2-3 sec in a body of natural fresh water using an assumed human body resistance of 300 ohms when immersed in fresh water — and assuming a current range through the human body where muscle control is lost in the range of 6mA to 30mA — and applying Ohm's law, the voltage necessary to cause a drowning in fresh water is in the range of 1.8V to 9V, 60 Hz AC.

Because victims typically show no sign of injury, many electric shock drownings are mislabeled as deaths attributable to alcohol intoxication or heart attack. Additionally, often attributed death as accident to trips, slips and falls head injury, resulting in loss of conciousness and drowning, rather than identifying the cause of the body to fall (thus striking head) and not be able to extracate from water (not loss of conciousness but loss of muscle control due to electric shock) and drowning (even in a shallow water basin face down!) or anoxia (lack of oxygen causing brain injury or death).

Oftentimes those drownings that are attributed to electric shock are only classified that way because of circumstantial evidence like great distress, multiple deaths, and a tingling sensation reported by the survivors.

Few scenes are preserved and subjected to forenisc investigation and analysis.

What do we often have now? Non-conductive drainage piping or isolated sections, non-conductive water piping or isolated sections, fiberglass/acrylic soaking tubs, sometimes CI or enameled steel, etc. A supporting frame if a hydro is bonded but not the water (unlike pools, etc.) isolated in the bath tub, baby in the sink apparently smiling never slips under water in hands of glove wearing caregiver administering bath blamed on SIDS, heart defect, or worse yet allegations of inflicted child abuse, in-line tankless electric water heater/recirculators, electric toothbrush chargers, shavers, timer circuits, logic boards, memory chips, programable functions in appliances, etc. throughout the kitchen, bath, etc. And a naive, misguided, overreliance on the funcationality and set limits of GFCI devices to save you from the hazards of body + water + electricity. The GFCI may halt the flow from the electrical system circuit but not from the device with stored energy.

It's alright to not know everything. Chill, we all like you anyway .

I find it a dam shame that people insist on posting pictures and comments in a thread when what they are posting has nothing to do with the orginal posters questions/ comments.
Why do people insist on high jacking peoples threads instead of starting one of their own!

Originally Posted by ken horak

I find it a dam shame that people insist on posting pictures and comments in a thread when what they are posting has nothing to do with the orginal posters questions/ comments.
Why do people insist on high jacking peoples threads instead of starting one of their own!

Actually a crying dam shame.

The only reason I threw that in there was it was a similar situation with crap in a shower/tub area that should not be.


Non one had to answer it and my plans were not to get involved because I was or thought was tied up. It turned out not so. I planned on "not" hijacking the thread but added same interest as poster. I figured if anyone answered it then they answered and I would read it later.

Besides. I posted it. No one else, so ask me. Trust me. I'll tell yeah. Sorry to spoil the milk in your cerial.

It happened. You commented. Feel better? I will help you out to be monitor if you wish.

It happens and always will and most of the time done innocently as mine was. Did not think it would get a big responce as it was someone elses spot.

Like I said. Ask me. I posted kit. I would have told you so.

Besides you answered it almost instantly. Did not have to. I bet you thought it would die quick as well and the poster question continued on.

Now, back to the original poster.

Not a recessed light. What kind was it. Sorry for the thread take over.

I will say that there are about none that should or could be directly over the shower that is not a recessed sealed light.

Flush, and protected surface mounts are allowed depending on ceiling height, not only restricted to recessed fixtures. And must be installed in accordance with their listing.

Beyond the unammended NEC and equipment Listings, you also must verify your local code adoptions/ammendments do not further restrict. For example it is often common to see restrictions like clear area for six feet above flood rim for an additional no-no encroachment to the zone. Some areas are also restrictive using language found elsewhere in the NEC regarding maintance/accessing the fixture or now "luminaire" for such things as changing light bulbs - requiring that the equipment be placed over an area which can be accessed for maintenance without being in or over the plumbing fixture - i.e. shower or tub.

Then we get to homes, or rather bathrooms/suites, etc. with ceiling heights greater than 8 feet, vaulted areas, etc.

If the ceiling height is greater than 8 feet above the shower threshold or flood rim of the tub then other types are allowed as long as they do not project within the 8' high no-no zone above the shower threshold or flood rim if a tub. That same no-no zone extends three feet out.

If ceiling height is less than 8' ABOVE shower threshold or flood rim of tub, then equipment must be damp zone rated at a minimum. Must be wet-zone rated if subjected to wet zone conditions (such as a sauna or steam jets, washing effects, such as overhead jets, waterfall fixtures, etc.) or subject to POTENTIAL water spray. (Just about any non-fixed postion spray head, shower head, especially if a wand type is wet-zone).

The wiring and box for area must also be correct for the zone (ratings/applied uses).

Any switches operating same must also not be in the footprint zone of the bath/shower.

KH already mentioned part of this (BTW a three -letter "dam" is live what a beaver builds. The "dam" you're speaking of (as in '**** shame' has four letters). If someone asserts an unsafe defective condition is safe or can be made safe erroneously, it needs to be rebutted, IMHO, not left there for some other reader to presume that since it wasn't rebutted it wasn't erroneous). However, long before Ted posted his photo, I believe the OP had long since lost interest in the thread.

Back to original topic and needed to correct erroneous statement that any luminaire in the area necessarily had to be recessed, as that is not the case. Also you cannot "tell" the rating of a luminaire, i.e. damp or wet zone, mearly by its outside appearance in a photograph. Non-conductive trims, bonding, a LISTING sticker as to its application (usually not seen unless bulb and/or trim is removed) and the entirety of the installation as within the instructions and Listing (and if GFCI protected, when necessary).

Although the OP (Original Poster) doesn't presently share his location on his profile, IIRC in the past (perhaps a now deleted post or several deleted posts) that it was shared Southrern California, east of San Diego, IIRC I do recall a six foot above flood rim restriction for obstructions in a nearby area (at least at one time) and a prohibition of luminaires directly over for just the type local appliations I mentioned above (but its been a very long while so I'm reaching to the deep memory banks on that one).

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

The wiring and box for area must also be correct for the zone (ratings/applied uses).

There is no need for type UF cable and weatherproof boxes to be installed above the ceiling of a tub or shower.

Originally Posted by Billy Stephens

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If that is a TV it can not be mounted in a damp location.

Yes it can! just because it is not allowed by code or common sense someone has mounted it there! So it can be mounted there!

Ted -- Spell Check is a good thing

Hg - Pretty bold statement assuming the original poster had already lost interest in his post - 2 hours and 34 minutes after posting it.

Originally Posted by ken horak

Ted -- Spell Check is a good thing

Hg - Pretty bold statement assuming the original poster had already lost interest in his post - 2 hours and 34 minutes after posting it.

Actually he was last logged in and viewing the thread after same, 24 hours later (after Ted had posted his first OT), but yeah, boldly logical, after thread was hijacked. At least the OP hasn't deleted his posts from this this one, yet. OTOH, the thread overall has had 787 views so far.