Results 1 to 29 of 29
  1. #1
    Steve Boyer's Avatar
    Steve Boyer Guest

    Default Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    I know this is done, but is this a legal installation? It looks like he used a 100 amp breaker as the Main, and is feeding the box through it. I have seen this before I was in business, but this is a first for me as a fairly new home inspector.

    Of course, 100 amps is too little for all the circuits he has in here and the service should be upgraded....and there is a double tap in there too. Any info would be appreciated.

    thought I had pictures here...I will try to add some

    Similar Threads:
    Last edited by Steve Boyer; 04-20-2011 at 12:44 PM.
    Inspection Referral SOC

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Are you asking if you can backfeed a panel?

    How do you know 100 amps is not enough for all the circuits? Did you do a demand load calculation?


  3. #3
    Steve Boyer's Avatar
    Steve Boyer Guest

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    He has 100 amp feed and 270 amps in circuits. I have always used 130% as the guide for breakers vs service.

    Last edited by Steve Boyer; 04-20-2011 at 12:44 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Boyer View Post
    He has 100 amp feed and 270 amps in circuits. I have always used 130% as the guide for breakers vs service.
    I would have hoped that this would have been covered under a HI training program. The additive total of the breakers has nothing to do with the true load on a panel. It does not take into account any loads not used at the same time like AC and heat, nor is each breaker carrying anywhere near its load. A 20 amp countertop receptacle may only have less than one amp on it from the clock on the coffee maker.

    It is typical for a 200 amp panel to have 400 amps or more of breakers in it. To properly determine the load you need to perform a demand load calculation. There is no 130% restriction or rule.


  5. #5
    Steve Boyer's Avatar
    Steve Boyer Guest

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    I can find no reference to it in any of my textbooks from my course (classroom). This 130% general rule came from my father who was a contractor form many years and a Vocational Ed teacher in the construction trades. It was used to gauge service needs in the days before 200 amp was the norm. I cannot find any guidance on it in my "Code Check" so I agree you are correct... 100 amp service to a 4 bedroom house with electric stove, dryer, and air conditioner is not adequate in my opinion. I can go through the NEC guidelines step one through 24 and find 100 amps pretty tight. I would be willing to bet the 130% comes pretty close much of the time...but I agree, it is not a code or rule.

    Close to 300 amps in breakers on 100 amp service seems like something to point out in a report.. The double tap requires a flag anyway. Thanks for the reply.


  6. #6

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Panels can be back fed, but that main breaker needs to be properly secured into place. Imagine if the breaker popped free while energized.


  7. #7
    Steve Boyer's Avatar
    Steve Boyer Guest

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Good point. I tagged the box for further review. The house had a rusted subpanel with 4 fuses in it and reminents of K+T wiring here and there. New romex strung and stapled to the bottom of joists...etc. The box was a decent job as far as neatness goes. Thanks for your reply.

    Last edited by Steve Boyer; 04-20-2011 at 12:44 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Twin Cities, Minnesota
    Posts
    150

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Steven -- Maybe you should recommend a load calculation on the house before you call it inadequate. 100 Amp service is pretty normal in Minnesota for 4 or less bedrooms, <2500sf, and proves to be adequate. My house, for instance, is 4 bedrooms, finished basement, electric stove and AC and i've never had a problem with service. I've never done a load calculation, but if I just went by your 130% rule I'm sure I'd come up inadequate -- along with 80% of the houses I inspect.

    I'm not saying that 130% rule is wrong, just maybe find some research that backs it up before you put it into practice. I couldn't find anything like that in any of my home inspector training books.

    -Jon
    Errickson Home Inspections, LLC
    http://www.erricksonhomeinspections.com

  9. #9
    Steve Boyer's Avatar
    Steve Boyer Guest

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    The service cable was less than 6 ft and the service cable was larger than 4-4-4. Recommending a load calculation makes sense. I asked my father where the 130% rule came from that I was parroting, and he said it was a military standard. He was also a construction and building inspector in the military and I picked up the 130% from him. He did say that standard is from 25 years ago or more, so it might not even be military current. It is totally irrevelent for residential home inspectors.

    In the end, I did not tag it as inadequate because it probably just is. The norm here is 200 amps. The strange thing on this installation is that the meter appeared to be 200 amps, but he only put a 100 amp breaker in...and then filled the box.

    Either way I had to flag double taps and suggest an electrician look at it. If it is evaluated...then that is all I care about.

    Last edited by Steve Boyer; 08-11-2010 at 05:47 PM. Reason: misspell

  10. #10
    Mike Parks's Avatar
    Mike Parks Guest

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Steve

    Before you inspect your next panel you may want to read this.

    Ohio Electrical Inspection Rules

    And

    Chapter 1 - Administration

    102.6 Existing structures.

    The provisions of Section 115 shall control the alteration, repair, addition and change of occupancy of any existing structure.


    The occupancy of any structure currently existing on the date of adoption of this code shall be permitted to continue without change, provided the alleged occupancy can be shown to have existed and there are no orders of the building official pending, no evidence of fraud or no serious safety or sanitation hazard.


    Buildings constructed in accordance with plans which have been approved prior to the effective date of this code are existing buildings.



  11. #11
    Steve Boyer's Avatar
    Steve Boyer Guest

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Thanks for that, I appreciate it. I do not use the word "code" or the phase "not up to code" or even get into code in a report. This was flagged as evidence of possible amateur wiring not don't by a licenced electrician and recommended a review by a licenced electrician. There was romex hanging everywhere. Although I personally deemed the wiring okay from a handyman perspective, I could not see all the wiring tricks throughout the house in a couple of hours.

    This info is very heipful though as I become more experienced. Thanks.


  12. #12
    Mike Parks's Avatar
    Mike Parks Guest

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Steve

    You are welcome.

    Please read this many times:
    "However, if a person holds them self out as a home inspector and offers to perform an inspection of the home and its systems but indicates that they will issue a report indicating the state of function, operation or relative hazards, but not refer to code compliance, they would not be in violation of this law."

    You stated earlier that you use "Code Check". Why?

    Note that "includes any ascertainment" is use in the link that I gave you.

    You may also want your legal consul to help you with understanding this.

    I do not want to stop you from finding safety hazards. You just need to be careful on what you say.

    You may also want to know that there is no license for residential 1,2,3 family in Ohio. Some areas may require the State Lic. (Commercial) to perform electric work in their jurisdiction but it is not required.

    Again ask your legal consul who you should be recommending to 'evaluate' the electric. An EC or an ESI.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,246

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Parks View Post
    Note that "includes any ascertainment" is use in the link that I gave you.

    The home inspector is not ascertaining "compliance with the Ohio building code", the home inspector is doing just the opposite - using the code to show that there is NON-compliance with the codes.

    Also this: "This means that if a person is paid to inspect a home, and indicates that they are inspecting the electrical system in accordance with the code" and, again, the home inspector is not indicating that they are "inspecting the electrical system in accordance with the code", but simply inspecting the electrical system and noting conditions which are wrong and not safe.

    I believe you have stretched what they wrote to try to support your particular position as what you are saying is not what they wrote in your post.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  14. #14
    Mike Parks's Avatar
    Mike Parks Guest

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Jerry

    We have had this debate before.

    That is why I told him to seek legal advice and not take my word for this.

    I will never convince you of my point.

    I just do not want him to be the 'test case' in Ohio on what IS citing code.

    If he is sitting in court who do you think is going to say what citing code is? An ESI.

    If a HI removes an electrical panel cover and looks inside the client believes that the HI is checking to see that everything is safe and installed properly. A HI, in Ohio, can not tell you if everything is installed properly.
    So why look inside of the panel? It is all smoke and mirrors.

    I KNOW that YOU know what you are doing.

    Continue to be a good resource for electrical knowledge but do not lead or mislead him on what he can and cannot do in Ohio.


  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,246

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Parks View Post
    If a HI removes an electrical panel cover and looks inside the client believes that the HI is checking to see that everything is safe and installed properly. A HI, in Ohio, can not tell you if everything is installed properly.
    Precisely!

    But the HI CAN point out what is WRONG.

    So why look inside of the panel? It is all smoke and mirrors.
    See response above.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Mike Parks,

    I note you have made the same "mistake" on this topic in more than one post as you do on your web site:

    A "consul" is one who serves a diplomatic post in a foreign land.

    "Counsel", or legal counsel is what you obviously intended.

    Makes you appear ignorant and what you say that much more incredible.

    Please explain your statement that you've had this discussion before with Jerry Peck. Where? on this forum? Your user profile indicates you created it just today. What other "identities" have you been using?

    Your claim that there is/are no statewide adoption of minimum code standards for Residential 1, 2, 3-family properties in Ohio (ex. Ag) is news to me. I was under the impression that this was done several years ago, and that included electrical code standards. Please explain.


  17. #17
    Mike Parks's Avatar
    Mike Parks Guest

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Mike Parks,

    I note you have made the same "mistake" on this topic in more than one post as you do on your web site:

    A "consul" is one who serves a diplomatic post in a foreign land.

    "Counsel", or legal counsel is what you obviously intended.

    Makes you appear ignorant and what you say that much more incredible.

    Please explain your statement that you've had this discussion before with Jerry Peck. Where? on this forum? Your user profile indicates you created it just today. What other "identities" have you been using?

    Your claim that there is/are no statewide adoption of minimum code standards for Residential 1, 2, 3-family properties in Ohio (ex. Ag) is news to me. I was under the impression that this was done several years ago, and that included electrical code standards. Please explain.
    Agreed my spelling was wrong. I will leave it wrong so as your statements will remain correct.

    I never claimed no state standard. You can find it here:
    STATE INFORMATION

    As to my conversations with Jerry that is no concern of yours.


  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,246

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Parks View Post
    As to my conversations with Jerry that is no concern of yours.

    Mike,

    To the contrary, when you refer to it here on this board, it is relative to, and a concern of, ANYONE AND EVERYONE who reads these posts and wonders about it.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  19. #19
    Mike Parks's Avatar
    Mike Parks Guest

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Mike,

    To the contrary, when you refer to it here on this board, it is relative to, and a concern of, ANYONE AND EVERYONE who reads these posts and wonders about it.
    Jerry

    As to posts on this board you are correct.

    He asked about "Please explain your statement that you've had this discussion before with Jerry Peck".

    That was the statement to which I was referring.

    I found "What other "identities" have you been using?" insulting and was responding to that.

    My comments, I thought, where directed to Steve in Ohio. Not applicable to the whole world.


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,246

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Parks View Post
    As to posts on this board you are correct.

    He asked about "Please explain your statement that you've had this discussion before with Jerry Peck".

    That was the statement to which I was referring.
    That was also the statement to which I was referring: you make that statement here on the open board, you need to be willing to back it up and be willing to discuss it.

    I found "What other "identities" have you been using?" insulting and was responding to that.
    Yeah, I try to avoid posts like that, but some here do make those statements, sometimes because there is an apparent reason to tie two identities to one person, and they may be right, or they may be wrong, either way, though, I try to let it go unsaid as it does nothing for anyone.

    My comments, I thought, where directed to Steve in Ohio. Not applicable to the whole world.
    You may have directed your comments to Steve in Ohio, but this is an open board and any and all who wish to respond can. Thus it is best to not make comments you do not wish to discuss.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    This has been bugging me, as I have seen Mike Parks make similar claims and statements before.

    I "found" at least one of these discussions where he (Mike Parks) continues to make make these claims despite having been told the opposite by the governmental authorities who are charged with with interpretation, enforcement, etc. of the laws he claims back him up. It seems no matter how many times he is told he is wrong (note last post quoted), he will not give up the "goat" and continue in "his opinion" and vendetta of mis- and dis-information.

    See: Bad Home Inspection Info - Electrical

    See especially Mark H. Roe's posts (especially beginning at comments #39 and beyond) (direct link)
    Bad Home Inspection Info - Electrical

    Mike,
    Since you have used my post for trying to make your point, I will comment on your post to make some things clear. The above Home Inspector did not call out code violations or write up his report with code numbers did he? I ask you to re-read the information that the State of Ohio Electrical Board made concerning just this issue. Mike you have been beating this issue to death, and it is time for you to let it go because you will not win this issue according the the Ohio Electrical Board statements.

    They stated that we the Home Inspector can test, look at, and open any panel to see if we if any safety issue are present. Not calling out code issues because we are not licensed to do so, and we are not to write in our reports the code violation or code reference numbers. If we did, then we would then be in violation according to the Electrical Board. I have again posted the information from my posting for you and other to better understand.

    The law related to electrical inspections is not new. Since 1970, persons holding themselves out to perform electrical inspections have been required to be certified by the Ohio Board of Building Standards as Electrical Safety Inspectors.

    For the purpose of this law, "practice of electrical inspection" includes any ascertainment of compliance with the Ohio building code, or the electrical code of a political subdivision of this state by a person, who, for compensation, inspects the construction and installation of electrical conductors, fittings, devices, and fixtures for light, heat or power services equipment, or the installation, alteration, replacement, maintenance, or repair of any electrical wiring and equipment that is subject to any of the aforementioned codes. (taken from ORC Chapter 3783.)

    This means that if a person is paid to inspect a home, and indicates that they are inspecting the electrical system in accordance with the code, and they are not certified by the Ohio Board of Building Standards as an Electrical Safety Inspector, they would be in violation of the law.

    "No person shall engage in the practice of electrical inspection in this state unless he is the holder of a certificate of competency as an electrical safety inspector issued under Chapter 3783. of the Revised Code. Any person practicing or offering to practice electrical inspection shall show proof of his certification upon request as provided by rules of the board of building standards." (taken from ORC Chapter 3783.)

    However, if a person holds them self out as a home inspector and offers to perform an inspection of the home and its systems but indicates that they will issue a report indicating the state of function, operation or relative hazards, but not refer to code compliance, they would not be in violation of this law.

    Mike I hope that this helps you clear up this issue and you let it die. If you have written proof that a Home Inspector has written in his report the statement of a code violation and used the code reference numbers, then report him to the Electrical board because he is in violation!
    Bad Home Inspection Info - Electrical

    Mike,
    You do what you do best, and I will do what I do best. All I know for a fact is this. I have a letter directly from the Ohio Board of Building Standards that has spelled it out on what I as a Home Inspector can, and can not do in concerns electrical inspections. In it, it does state that I can open a electrical panel and look inside it. It also states that I can call out what I feel is a safety issue, IE double taps. Again, as written in the letter. I can call it out as a safety issue and as long as I do not call out a code reference number, and I write it up in my report that we recommend that it be reviewed by a ESI for further evaluation.
    Bad Home Inspection Info - Electrical

    Mike,

    After I contacted the State of Ohio Building Standards to make sure that the letter that they sent concerning this matter was still the same and a active stance concerning this matter. They have verified that it was, and I was given permission to post it here unedited. Mike, I am sure that you will read into it what you want it to say. But it is in black and white, and I encourage every Ohio Home Inspector to make a copy of this letter just in case they are called out on this issue.

    Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:31:31 -0500

    From: Debbie.Ohler@com.state.oh.us

    Laura-

    As we discussed on the telephone, the following statement is what the BBS staff determined

    today during our review of the applicable Ohio Revised Code sections.

    I hope this helps!

    Deborah D. Ohler, PE

    Staff Engineer

    Ohio Board of Building Standards

    PO Box 4009, 6606 Tussing Rd.

    Reynoldsburg, OH 43068-9009

    Office Phone: (614)644-2613

    Fax: (614)222-2147

    E-mail: dohler@com.state.oh.us

    Web: www.com.state.oh.us/dic/dicbbs.htm

    The law related to electrical inspections is not new. Since 1970, persons holding themselves out

    to perform electrical inspections have been required to be certified by the Ohio Board of Building

    Standards as Electrical Safety Inspectors.

    For the purpose of this law, "practice of electrical inspection" includes any ascertainment of

    compliance with the Ohio building code, or the electrical code of a political subdivision of this

    state by a person, who, for compensation, inspects the construction and installation of electrical conductors, fittings, devices, and fixtures for light, heat or power services equipment, or the installation, alteration, replacement, maintenance, or repair of any electrical wiring and equipment that is subject to any of the aforementioned codes. (taken from ORC

    Chapter 3783.)

    This means that if a person is paid to inspect a home, and indicates that they are inspecting the electrical system in accordance with the code, and they are not certified by the Ohio Board of Building Standards as an Electrical Safety Inspector, they would be in violation of the law.

    "No person shall engage in the practice of electrical inspection in this state unless he is the holder of a certificate of competency as an electrical safety inspector issued under Chapter 3783. of the Revised Code. Any person practicing or offering to practice electrical inspection shall show proof of his certification upon request as provided by rules of the board of building standards." (taken from ORC Chapter 3783.)

    However, if a person holds them self out as a home inspector and offers to perform an inspection of the home and its systems but indicates that they will issue a report indicating the state of function, operation or relative hazards, but not refer to code compliance, they would not be in violation of this law.
    Bad Home Inspection Info - Electrical

    Mike,

    You are correct concerning new construction Only! As for looking inside of a electrical box you are not. The letter clear states what we can do, and I have had conversations with the state on what we can and can not do! We can look inside of a electrical box according to them and we can report what we feel are a safety issue and call it out as a safety issue. Again as stated in the letter, we can call it out "BUT" not cite code. Period end of discussion. You go ahead and continue to put down the Home Inspectors in writing on this board or any other board and you just might find a Home Inspector willing to spend the money to take you to task on your written statements. Have a great day and may you have many happy "CODE" inspections
    And my absolute favorite, and the thread's conclusion/last post, dated February 14th, again from Mark H. Roe (who IMO did an admirable job of following through on this topic with the utmost of professionalism!), comment #72, (clickable link direct to post) here (wherein he memorializes having organized a chapter meeting, inviting official from the Division of Industrial Compliance and Labor - Jan Sokonicki - and "Mike Parks" to address these very questions, and "the Division" clearly contradicted everything that "Mike Parks" had to say on this very "subject" of an Ohio HI "inspecting" the electrical system and reporting on same.

    Bad Home Inspection Info - Electrical


    Mike,

    Thank you for taking the time to attend our chapter meeting yesterday. I hope that you were happy with the meeting and we were able to clear up this electrical issue.

    It was a pleasure to have Jan Sokonicki from the Division of Industrial Compliance and Labor to answer our questions.

    What we did find out was this. We are allowed to open up the electrical panels and have a look and site safety concerns IF you are wanting to take that liability to do so. With concerns to the electrical system, we can test the system, and call out electrical safety issues. BUT YOU CAN NOT QUOTE CODE NUMBERS OR REFERENCE IN YOUR WRITTEN REPORT, And if you do find problems, you write it up, and refer it for further evaluation by a licensed Electrical Inspector. We as Home Inspectors must become uniformed in our contracts and Standards of Practice with the written understanding that we are NOT code inspectors.

    Please everyone that are reading this, it is up to you where you are wanting to take your liabilities.

    I hope that this help clear up the electrical issue here in Ohio for our Ohio Home Inspectors. may you all have a great day, and many happy inspections.
    I believe I have seen posts from Mark Roe here before, but wasn't able to find them at the moment.

    Kudos Mark, if you're reading this.

    And Steve Boyer, if you're reading this, hope you go ahead and do your own research and verification on the "non-issue" discussed my "Mike Parks". I believe you will find you can take such comments from "him" with a "grain of salt" after you've done so, and may agree with my opinion, which is to consider/conclude it to be (excuse the mixing of metaphores) "SOUR GRAPES" and "MUD-SLINGING" postering his personal agenda and personal promotional marketing strategy, not factual.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-10-2010 at 09:36 AM.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Chicago IL
    Posts
    1,984

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    First to Steve, I would agree the panel is very sloppy and has issues. I would write a number of defects on it. As far as undersized, I'd have to disagree. 100A to a 20 position panel is very typical. As others have stated one would have to do a load calc for a proper determination. Since you are writing all kinds of electrical defects on the system anyway, I would tell the client to have Sparky go through the panel and improve or replace. A new panel swap out around here is +/-$500, add in the odds and ends and for a $1000+ your client can have a safer system.
    HG, I checked out the 1st link. Interesting how he states in his responses that things are code compliant but then at the bottom says only the municipal official can make that determination.
    MP your 'smoke and mirrors' comment is very disturbing. You must be kidding right? Are you one of those guys who doesn't take the panel cover off?
    I don't know what the deal is in Ohio but I can tell you what it is in Chicago.
    As an inspector or HI here, one is assessing NON-compliance with the Code, NOT compliance. Even municipal inspectors are assessing for NON-compliance initially. It is only during a re-inspection or permit inspection that municipal inspectors are assessing for compliance.
    I do a fair amount of Code work. I generally do not tell clients that something is fully compliant because only the muni insp can make that final determination based on all the information they have. I can only inform clients as to whether or not something is likely to pass muni inspection. It is not uncommon for the building dept to issue updates during the year on certain matters. Staff gets that information, while the public may or may not get it until the next years book comes out.

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    MK,

    Yes, the subsequent links were to the same posting topic thread, just directly to those individual posts I was quoting from.

    As for the "insult" Mike Parks claimed earlier in THIS thread topic string, he had a previous "identity" here on this forum, but for whatever reason it was discontinued/deleted/disenrolled. This, of course, makes finding his prior posts on the dotNET version of IN difficult.

    He also participated to the tune of 130 or so posts on the archived site, about half of which were full of disinformation and furthering the similar "agenda".

    Despite prior assurances he would not intentionally again engage in such behavior (intentional DISINFORMATION, BAITING, etc.) at InspectionNews, has apparently been forgotten.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Parks
    Richard Your are correct.
    "deliberately posting misinformation or misinterpretation"

    It was meant as a misconception rather than misinformation.

    I will not do this again.
    Mike P.
    Above from (clickable link to posting on archive site), emphasis mine): Square-D QO breakers - InspectionNews.com

    Despite prior assurances of not continuing such behavior on IN, doing it again, now that "he's Baaaaack". And he's doing it again, i.e. deliberately posting misinformation or misinterpretation, fear-mongering, and baiting. At this point I don't care that he feigns being "insulted" because I "asked" him to confirm or deny use of other posting identities on THIS forum (as mentioned previously he was on THIS (.net) forum previously subscribed as "Mike Parks" and I've found some of those posted in 07, and 08, and I'm not sure how many times more recently or when he was "dis-enrolled, or de-subscribed", some of which were apparently deleted prior to de-subscribing.

    Under the guise of his own misconceptions, "warnings", "guidance", or self-marketing via reverse marketing/mud-slinging, fear-mongering "opinions", baiting, or however "explained", I take "issue".

    Comments in the past "justifying" similar type (disinformation) posts such as (from archieved IN site):

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Parks
    ...You both understand perfectly. I baited you.
    Don't like it (intentional spread of disinformation to disrupt business endeavors, fear, unnecessary expense regarding legal consultations by/of competitors or would-be competitors in the marketplace, MISLEADING THE PUBLIC, CONSUMERS, etc.,), that's my Opinion.

    He HAS participated on the instant forum before the newly created profile/member number. Some examples: http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...ght=Mike+Parks

    http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...ght=Mike+Parks

    http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...ght=Mike+Parks


    He also participated on the .com archieved site using same identifiying information and saying some of the same things he says now. IMHO was a legitimate question at that point to "confirm" the newly created user profile was the "same" "Mike Parks, ESI".

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-10-2010 at 12:12 PM.

  24. #24
    John Steinke's Avatar
    John Steinke Guest

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    I recall one guy who called in sick to work, claiming to have 'anal myopia.' When asked later to elaborate, he replied that he just didn't see his *** going in that day.

    My point is that, while 'words mean things,' some parties make empires out of defining terms. This can be a bit confusing, as the same term may have very different implications even in the same situation. (As an example, not every home that is 'habitable' to the Fire Marshal is 'habitable' to HUD).

    We have discussed this topic a few times, and various states have come down on the issue with their own determinations. As "authorities having jurisdiction,' their opinions are the only ones that count.

    It all starts with the idea of 'competence.' No matter how smart you are, if the AHJ has set themselves up to determine competence, you're not comptent unless they say so.

    A good example has to do with electrical work. You'r not competent to do electrical work unless the AHJ has said you are. In most cases, this means you're not competent unless you have an electrical contractors' license.

    Then the debate bcomes 'what is 'electrical work.'?" Is it work only if you're touching tools to wires - or are things like load calculations and risk assessments also 'work'? HI's have a fine line to walk here!

    Regarding statements as to code violations, there is some merit to the position that one is not guilty of a crime (even a code violation) untill after they have been convicted by a court. Welcome to the 'libel twilight zone.'

    Indeed, unless you actually represent the AHJ, and are exercising your office, you can't even 'accuse' someone of a violation. Your opinions are but a report, a complaint, an assertion.

    Now, why would various AHJ's become so finicky? Perhaps because they weary of irate constitutients complaining of run-amok 'experts,' or that the truly 'competent' have also complained.

    The moral is clear: be clear and precise. Make sure you seprate what you 'think' from what you 'know.'


  25. #25
    Steve Boyer's Avatar
    Steve Boyer Guest

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Thanks to all who have taken the time to give their valuable opinions. We certainly do live in a bizarre world of micro legal issues that have really clouded life. That political discussion can be saved for a later time. I am fairly new to all this and for what it is worth, I would like to add my view after reading all the worthwhile imput.

    To me, the basic role I want to play as a home inspector is broken down into two simple areas. Number 1, are the clients kids going to die from fire, gas, or dangerous conditions? And, number 2, are my clients going to have dramatic unforseen (to them) repair costs after taking ownership of the property?

    If I cannot fulfill those roles, I do not want to be doing this. I need to know if the home is safe from electrical fire. I do not know how I can fulfill that role without looking inside an electrical box...especially when there is widespread evidence of amateur installations all around.

    Maybe my outlook is too nieve, but it seems to be why I am asking to be paid for my services. I need to sleep at night.

    I think it is very good advice never to write or say the word "code" I think it is very good advice to never hint at being an expert in any system of the house. Does anyone have a comment against my simplistic Number 1 and 2 roles of a HI above? Isn't that what we do?

    Thanks to all. Didn't expect this to run...but it was good for me.


  26. #26
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
    Roger Frazee Guest

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Hi Steve

    I'm a member here but not an HI an electrician. I don't think anyone is a expert when they first get licensed in any trade. It takes years of experience and more licensing to be declared an expert. I do think though that as you gain skills and experience your ultimate goal is to be able to legitimately say you are an expert at what you do. Only then can you be confident the house won't burn down or structural defects cause unwanted repairs.
    I also do not think there is anyway in a home inspection that you could make the claim the home is free of structural defects or incorrect wiring and nothing will go wrong.
    If I'm a buyer I would want one thing from an HI .. a professional report telling all things major and minor that may be of concern from your inspection of the property. I understand that reference to individuals like licensed plumbers and electricians for further evaluation is done quite often in an Hi's report.
    The bottom line is you need to have that 'expert rating' so that when you look at something structural or electrical, or plumbing....etc. you don't think it is wrong ... you know it is wrong.

    And of course we could argue for some time on just exactly what is an expert.....


  27. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    552

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Hi Steve

    ...... It takes years of experience and more licensing to be declared an expert. I do think though that as you gain skills and experience your ultimate goal is to be able to legitimately say you are an expert at what you do.....
    ....The bottom line is you need to have that 'expert rating' so that when you look at something structural or electrical, or plumbing....etc. you don't think it is wrong ... you know it is wrong.
    And of course we could argue for some time on just exactly what is an expert.....
    RF - Your definition of "Expert" reminds me of my philosophy on *expert*.... Although I have 30+ years in my profession I only admit to knowing a little about something---I do not consider myself an "Expert", although some say I am, because I am always learning something new. After all, as someone related in this thread-----information may change but doesn't get to everyone.


  28. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    South-West Michigan
    Posts
    469

    Post Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Boyer View Post
    Thanks to all who have taken the time to give their valuable opinions. We certainly do live in a bizarre world of micro legal issues that have really clouded life. That political discussion can be saved for a later time. I am fairly new to all this and for what it is worth, I would like to add my view after reading all the worthwhile imput.

    To me, the basic role I want to play as a home inspector is broken down into two simple areas. Number 1, are the clients kids going to die from fire, gas, or dangerous conditions? And, number 2, are my clients going to have dramatic unforseen (to them) repair costs after taking ownership of the property?

    If I cannot fulfill those roles, I do not want to be doing this. I need to know if the home is safe from electrical fire. I do not know how I can fulfill that role without looking inside an electrical box...especially when there is widespread evidence of amateur installations all around.

    Maybe my outlook is too nieve, but it seems to be why I am asking to be paid for my services. I need to sleep at night.

    I think it is very good advice never to write or say the word "code" I think it is very good advice to never hint at being an expert in any system of the house. Does anyone have a comment against my simplistic Number 1 and 2 roles of a HI above? Isn't that what we do?

    Thanks to all. Didn't expect this to run...but it was good for me.

    Steve, generally speaking, you are on the ball, doing the job, based on what you shared. I am not in Ohio. However, in the given situation, based on the posts shared by others, you could simply refer to the panel as having various safety concerns, and suggest further review by what has been referred to as an ESI. One other comment: your photo of the newer cable and K&T joining at the J-box would make me want to see "the other side". K&T requires special accommodation in situations like that, and they generally are not complied with from what I have seen. Keep inspecting and growing.

    Randall Aldering GHI BAOM MSM
    Housesmithe Inspection
    www.housesmithe.com

  29. #29
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: Electrical Box Amateur installation safe?

    Below is the NC SOP for Electricial Inspections. To meet these requirements you have to remove the panel covers in the house.


    .1110 ELECTRICAL
    (a) The home inspector shall inspect:
    (1) Service entrance conductors;
    (2) Service equipment, grounding equipment, main overcurrent device, and main and distribution panels;
    (3) Amperage and voltage ratings of the service;
    (4) Branch circuit conductors, their overcurrent devices, and the compatibility of their ampacities;
    (5) The operation of a representative number of installed ceiling fans, lighting fixtures, switches and receptacles located inside the house, garage, and on the dwellings exterior walls;
    (6) The polarity and grounding of all receptacles within six feet of interior plumbing fixtures, and all receptacles in the garage or carport, and on the exterior of inspected structures;
    (7) The operation of ground fault circuit interrupters; and
    (8) Smoke detectors.
    (b) The home inspector shall describe:
    (1) Service amperage and voltage;
    (2) Service entry conductor materials;
    (3) The service type as being overhead or underground; and
    (4) The location of main and distribution panels.
    (c) The home inspector shall report the presence of any readily accessible single strand aluminum branch circuit wiring.
    (d) The home inspector shall report on the presence or absence of smoke detectors, and operate their test function, if accessible, except when detectors are part of a central system.
    (e) The home inspector is not required to:
    (1) Insert any tool, probe, or testing device inside the panels;
    (2) Test or operate any overcurrent device except ground fault circuit interrupters;
    (3) Dismantle any electrical device or control other than to remove the covers of the main and auxiliary distribution panels; or
    (4) Inspect:
    (A) Low voltage systems;
    (B) Security system devices, heat detectors, or carbon monoxide detectors;
    (C) Telephone, security, cable TV, intercoms, or other ancillary wiring that is not a part of the primary electrical distribution system; or
    (D) Built-in vacuum equipment.



Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •