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  1. #1
    greyhound1's Avatar
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    Default electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    an old 220v line (circa 1985) occupying two breakers in a 200 amp box is connected to a 3 prong receptacle in the basement and services an old electric dryer. Homeowner will convert to an LP gas dryer and wants to convert the three prong, 220v receptacle to a 110v receptacle to accommodate hew LP dryer and washer in the most cost efficient and above all else "code legal" manner.(bucks county PA).

    Thank you for your input.

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    Last edited by greyhound1; 08-10-2010 at 09:20 PM. Reason: typo
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  2. #2
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Call an electrician and have him set it up! OH you want directions. Sorry
    Google electrican, dial the # and tell him what you want.
    Have him come and do the work
    And, the deal killer, the part you are trying to avoid
    PAY HIM!!!


  3. #3
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhound1 View Post
    an old 220v line (circa 1985) occupying two breakers in a 200 amp box is connected to a 3 prong receptacle in the basement and services an old electric dryer. Homeowner will convert to an LP gas dryer and wants to convert the three prong, 220v receptacle to a 110v receptacle to accommodate hew LP dryer and washer in the most cost efficient and above all else "code legal" manner.(bucks county PA).

    Thank you for your input.

    I see at least 4 reasons you need to call a qualified electrician.


    Not throwing you under the bus here but I think you are chasing a rabbit you are not going to catch.

    Last edited by chris mcintyre; 08-11-2010 at 06:57 PM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    ??? You guys absolutely have the wrong idea here. I have no intention of doing this job myself. I just want to know what this procedure involves. I like being an informed consumer (maybe you've heard of this concept?) If you feel like your revealing trade secrets then don't respond. Wow! Chasing rabbits?... Deal killers?.. The part you are trying to avoid?... What bad advice. I'm not sure why you're so angry. It's a good thing you guys aren't psychiatrists.. you'd starve!


  5. #5
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    OK here goes.......
    1. Turn off the power at the main panel.
    2. Disconnect the wires going to the two breakers feeding the dryer.
    3. Remove the dryer outlet and throw it away.
    4. Install a new 20 amp single pole breaker in the panel.
    5. Install a new box with a 120V outlet near the dryer.
    6. Run some 12 gauge 3-wire romex from the outlet to the panel.
    7. Hook the black wire to the breaker, and to the brass screw on the outlet. The white wire to the silver screw on the outlet and onto the neutral bus bar in the panel. The bare copper wire will go on the green screw on the outlet and the ground bus bar in the panel.
    Be sure to use wire clamps on the panel and the outlet box and secure the wires properly.

    Of course your conditions may vary, and if there is any part of this description you don't understand, call an electrician. There are a lot of variables with this. You may not be able to use Romex in your area and will have to use conduit. Your panel may not have separate bus bars. I may even have left out something.

    The most important part of this entire thing is IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE OR SKILLED ENOUGH TO WORK WITH ELECTRICITY, DO NOT OPEN THE PANEL AND DO STEPS 2 THRU 7. Call an electrician.

    Oh, and by the way. Did you notice that this was a forum for home inspectors, and NOT electricians, or even a do it yourself fix it forum? To get on your high horse because we don't want to answer a repair question is kind of out there if you ask me.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    I think what gets some riled on here about posts like these are a few things:

    1 - fictitious screen name (we conduct ourselves as professionals and use our real names.......well, most of us do).....that's what makes this site different as it is more personal and we like to know who we're speaking with.......fictitious names raise suspicion

    2 - this is not a DIY forum......if we see something that needs correction, we recommend that the appropriate professional performs the work as needed.....there are a handful of specialists that frequent this board but most of us are generalists.......and I don't know that the specialists on here like giving away their expert guidance for free

    3 - verbiage like "the most cost efficient and above all else "code legal" manner".......sounds like somebody is trying to get by on the cheap......."code compliant" may sound like quality to a consumer but we know that code is nothing more than the bare level minimum that has to be done to be legal

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhound1 View Post
    I just want to know what this procedure involves. I like being an informed consumer ...

    The best advice everyone here has been trying to tell you "is get a qualified electrician" to take care of it then watch him work, that way it'll be done correctly and you will gian the knowledge.

    Depending on how far (or how close) the dryer outlet is from the electrical panel, he may run a new cable or he may make use of the existing cable and simply reduce the breaker size accordingly and use the existing dryer outlet box as a junction box to splice on a smaller cable for the new recepticle(s).

    Without actually seeing it, it's difficult to say what the best option is but pay the small price and get it done right. It's just not worth the risk of a possible fire or shock hazard to have this done by an amatuer.

    Joe Klampfer RHI
    www.myinspection.ca
    Pacific Home Inspections

  8. #8
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhound1 View Post
    an old 220v line (circa 1985) occupying two breakers in a 200 amp box is connected to a 3 prong receptacle in the basement and services an old electric dryer. Homeowner will convert to an LP gas dryer and wants to convert the three prong, 220v receptacle to a 110v receptacle to accommodate hew LP dryer and washer in the most cost efficient and above all else "code legal" manner.(bucks county PA).

    Thank you for your input.
    Greyhound if you will go here ... Electrical - DIY Chatroom - DIY Home Improvement Forum ... there are several professional electricians that will assist you with your question.

    BTW ....Jacks information in post #5 is accurate ... there is one more option


  9. #9
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Discuss your electrical and gas plumbing projects with your local building officials office (authority having jurisdiction). They can provide you with references governing your plans when you pick up your PERMIT applications, project "information sheets" etc. From that "starting point" you can begin to devine what a "qualified person" is, as you begin the process of reviewing the permit application materials, and references therein, some of the minimum requirements for your project(s) should become apparent.Your questions regarding the designs and plans would be best addressed there (The office of the Authority Having Jurisdiction).As presented, I concur with suggestions that you additionally consult with qualified persons, for your intended electrical, plumbing (gas), Fuel (propane), and appliance installation project(s).


  10. #10
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    I've made up 120 volt "pigtails" out of a three wire dryer cord by putting a 4" square box on the end of the dryer cord and installing a a 120 volt receptacle wired to one of the hots and the neutral. In this case you will also have to use the neutral as the ground on the 120 volt receptacle. There is really no restriction on what can be "plugged" into a receptacle. If you wanted to be really safe you could replace the 30 amp breaker with a 15 amp.

    Of course this is not advice....only another possibility.

    (I used to play in a band in my younger days and to get power for our light show you had to get power anyway you could when you got to a job. Normally the most readily available power was in a kitchen or laundry area. We had all kinds of pigtails made up for easy use. The last resort was jumper cables connected to the main lugs in a panel with a 200 amp panel on the other end.)


  11. #11
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    I've made up 120 volt "pigtails" out of a three wire dryer cord by putting a 4" square box on the end of the dryer cord and installing a a 120 volt receptacle wired to one of the hots and the neutral. In this case you will also have to use the neutral as the ground on the 120 volt receptacle. There is really no restriction on what can be "plugged" into a receptacle. If you wanted to be really safe you could replace the 30 amp breaker with a 15 amp.

    Of course this is not advice....only another possibility.

    (I used to play in a band in my younger days and to get power for our light show you had to get power anyway you could when you got to a job. Normally the most readily available power was in a kitchen or laundry area. We had all kinds of pigtails made up for easy use. The last resort was jumper cables connected to the main lugs in a panel with a 200 amp panel on the other end.)
    The OP mentioned legal and code. I will add to that safety. WARNING, DEATH or injury.

    Work done today such as altering a circuit path, the voltage of a branch circuit, etc. has to be done by todays standards.

    What you suggest would have been neither safe nor code compliant even in 1985, Mr. Duffin.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 08-11-2010 at 02:21 PM.

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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    "(I used to play in a band in my younger days and to get power for our light show you had to get power anyway you could when you got to a job. Normally the most readily available power was in a kitchen or laundry area. We had all kinds of pigtails made up for easy use. The last resort was jumper cables connected to the main lugs in a panel with a 200 amp panel on the other end.)"

    Doing dumb things when you were younger, well we all have.
    But to do them now, or tell someone else to do something dumb is....
    You should know better.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post

    (I used to play in a band in my younger days and to get power for our light show you had to get power anyway you could when you got to a job. Normally the most readily available power was in a kitchen or laundry area. We had all kinds of pigtails made up for easy use. The last resort was jumper cables connected to the main lugs in a panel with a 200 amp panel on the other end.)
    That is some crazy chit James.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  14. #14
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    That is some crazy chit James.
    That was 35 years ago...know better now!


  15. #15
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    "(I used to play in a band in my younger days and to get power for our light show you had to get power anyway you could when you got to a job. Normally the most readily available power was in a kitchen or laundry area. We had all kinds of pigtails made up for easy use. The last resort was jumper cables connected to the main lugs in a panel with a 200 amp panel on the other end.)"

    Doing dumb things when you were younger, well we all have.
    But to do them now, or tell someone else to do something dumb is....
    You should know better.
    Anybody who knows how to make what I posted work knows how to do it the right way....and so they should!


  16. #16
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhound1 View Post
    Homeowner will convert to an LP gas dryer and wants to convert.....
    Quote Originally Posted by greyhound1 View Post
    I like being an informed consumer (maybe you've heard of this concept?)

    Which is it? If you are the consumer, then this means you are having the work done for you. Your first post refers to a homeowner and what they want, which IMO, implied you were either doing the work or advising the homeowner. This is the reason for the first part of my post, also see Nick's post (#6) read number 1, especially the last part.


    Quote Originally Posted by greyhound1 View Post
    Wow! Chasing rabbits?...

    I'm not sure why you're so angry.

    Not angry at all. You are the one who chose the name greyhound, thus the references to "bus" and "chasing rabbits", thought you might find them amusing .


    Quote Originally Posted by greyhound1 View Post
    It's a good thing you guys aren't psychiatrists.. you'd starve!

    I agree 100% with this part.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Hey Rabbit Chaser (or it is it Trailways ... er ... the other bus ),

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhound1 View Post
    an old 220v line (circa 1985) occupying two breakers in a 200 amp box is connected to a 3 prong receptacle in the basement and services an old electric dryer. Homeowner will convert to an LP gas dryer and wants to convert the three prong, 220v receptacle to a 110v receptacle to accommodate hew LP dryer and washer in the most cost efficient and above all else "code legal" manner.(bucks county PA).

    Thank you for your input.
    What you just described is a 240 volt circuit with a ground AND NO NEUTRAL.

    Presuming that is actually what you have, then you simply cannot use that cable/wiring for your new circuit.

    Now, let's presume that you have two hots and a neutral ... then you HAVE NOT GROUND - and still would not be able to use that circuit as you describe.

    Now, though, let's presume you actually have all the required conductors there: two hots, one neutral, and one ground - with that you would have potential and possibilities, such as using that as a feeder to a loadcenter (panel) and then have 15 amp and 20 amp circuits branch out from that new panel. However, it is unlikely you have the required wiring for this, but if you did ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  18. #18
    Don Burbach's Avatar
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Feldmann View Post
    OK here goes.......
    1. Turn off the power at the main panel.
    2. Disconnect the wires going to the two breakers feeding the dryer.
    3. Remove the dryer outlet and throw it away.
    4. Install a new 20 amp single pole breaker in the panel.
    5. Install a new box with a 120V outlet near the dryer.
    6. Run some 12 gauge 3-wire romex from the outlet to the panel.
    7. Hook the black wire to the breaker, and to the brass screw on the outlet. The white wire to the silver screw on the outlet and onto the neutral bus bar in the panel. The bare copper wire will go on the green screw on the outlet and the ground bus bar in the panel.
    Be sure to use wire clamps on the panel and the outlet box and secure the wires properly.

    Of course your conditions may vary, and if there is any part of this description you don't understand, call an electrician. There are a lot of variables with this. You may not be able to use Romex in your area and will have to use conduit. Your panel may not have separate bus bars. I may even have left out something.

    The most important part of this entire thing is IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE OR SKILLED ENOUGH TO WORK WITH ELECTRICITY, DO NOT OPEN THE PANEL AND DO STEPS 2 THRU 7. Call an electrician.

    Oh, and by the way. Did you notice that this was a forum for home inspectors, and NOT electricians, or even a do it yourself fix it forum? To get on your high horse because we don't want to answer a repair question is kind of out there if you ask me.
    Jack, although your info here is good advice, your "We are not a DIY forum" admonishment falls short of its goal. Your would have been better off saying "DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME". IT IS YOU WHO HAS COMPLETED THE LOOP TO MAKE THIS A DIY FORUM.

    We all inspect homes everyday with DIY work where people were seemingly comfortable enough and thought they were skilled enough to do their own work. Some is fine, some not. And most of the time the dead have been removed before the inspection!


  19. #19
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new



    Although it says "Everything An Inspector Needs to Know", it does seem to have turned into a DIY type forum for many.

    I don't agree with it, but its not my board.

    JMHO
    Rick


  20. #20
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post


    Although it says "Everything An Inspector Needs to Know", it does seem to have turned into a DIY type forum for many.

    I don't agree with it, but its not my board.

    JMHO
    Rick
    I'm not sure how you eliminate posters dropping in and asking DIY questions unless you have a moderated forum. In those forums (professional forums) threads are closed that are DIY in nature. I've never been much for closing threads .. unless disrespect gets out of hand. IMO it is better to refer the individual to a forum more appropriate for DIY without making comments that are unnecessary and generate even more unnecessary posts.

    Without playing 'seer' I just looked at his question as just that .. a DIY question.

    I wonder how many inspectors here actually knew the code compliant way to treat a 3 wire dryer branch circuit as it related to a conversion to 120 volts from 120/240 ....

    Jerrys post that explained that .. I'm willing to bet ... enlightened a few home inspectors here. Point being would all home inspectors if they were looking in the homes service equipment or distribution panel and saw a #10 black connected to a 20 amp breaker, a #10 white connected to the neutral bar and a #10 red or black marked green connected to either a neutral bar or grounding bar know it was a violation ? My opinion is some would come here and ask.... so the fact that the thread was continued even after the OP left .... something was learned by someone from that original question by the greyhound chasing the rabbit.....


  21. #21
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    I'm not sure how you eliminate posters dropping in and asking DIY questions unless you have a moderated forum. In those forums (professional forums) threads are closed that are DIY in nature. I've never been much for closing threads .. unless disrespect gets out of hand. IMO it is better to refer the individual to a forum more appropriate for DIY without making comments that are unnecessary and generate even more unnecessary posts.

    Without playing 'seer' I just looked at his question as just that .. a DIY question.

    I wonder how many inspectors here actually knew the code compliant way to treat a 3 wire dryer branch circuit as it related to a conversion to 120 volts from 120/240 ....

    Jerrys post that explained that .. I'm willing to bet ... enlightened a few home inspectors here. Point being would all home inspectors if they were looking in the homes service equipment or distribution panel and saw a #10 black connected to a 20 amp breaker, a #10 white connected to the neutral bar and a #10 red or black marked green connected to either a neutral bar or grounding bar know it was a violation ? My opinion is some would come here and ask.... so the fact that the thread was continued even after the OP left .... something was learned by someone from that original question by the greyhound chasing the rabbit.....
    If I as an electrician went to repair what you described as a violation, I would check both ends of the circuit to make you the wires are connected and marked properly and leave. A red wire marked green is not a problem as far as I am concerned. If it would make you feel better the red insulation could be stripped off so it would be bare but it would not make it any safer. My opinion....houses do not burn down because a wire is the wrong color.


  22. #22
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Point being would all home inspectors if they were looking in the homes service equipment or distribution panel and saw a #10 black connected to a 20 amp breaker, a #10 white connected to the neutral bar and a #10 red or black marked green connected to either a neutral bar or grounding bar know it was a violation ?

    huh ? In the case of a 10/3 copper dryer cable with the red and black wires connected to 20 amp brkrs, white wire connected to the neutral bar and the bare copper wire connected to the ground lug / screw... there's no violation there. It's no different than any other 3-wire circuit.

    At first glance the circuit would appear under-fused (20 amp brkr on wire rated at 30 amps max) and would likely be written up by many inspectors without understanding the circuit load(s) involved. Still not a violation.

    Now if he tried wrapping the #10 awg wire around the standard wall plug terminals, that would be a problem

    DISCLAIMER: since this is NOT a DIY forum... don't try this at home boys & girls - always call a licensed electrician !

    Joe Klampfer RHI
    www.myinspection.ca
    Pacific Home Inspections

  23. #23
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Klampfer View Post
    huh ? In the case of a 10/3 copper dryer cable with the red and black wires connected to 20 amp brkrs, white wire connected to the neutral bar and the bare copper wire connected to the ground lug / screw... there's no violation there. It's no different than any other 3-wire circuit.

    At first glance the circuit would appear under-fused (20 amp brkr on wire rated at 30 amps max) and would likely be written up by many inspectors without understanding the circuit load(s) involved. Still not a violation.

    Now if he tried wrapping the #10 awg wire around the standard wall plug terminals, that would be a problem

    DISCLAIMER: since this is NOT a DIY forum... don't try this at home boys & girls - always call a licensed electrician !
    You and James have just proven my point about some inspectors not understanding the code for this question brought up by greyhound. Or maybe James is just ignoring it....

    an old 220v line (circa 1985) occupying two breakers in a 200 amp box is connected to a 3 prong receptacle in the basement and services an old electric dryer.
    He incorrectly described the dryer circuit as a 220 volt circut .. cause he just doesn't understand that it is really a 3 wire 120/240 circuit..

    BTW Joe ... where in my description did you see anything about a bare ground wire being present..... We are taking about a 3 wire 120/240 volt dryer circuit with no ground wire.

    In the case of a 10/3 copper dryer cable with the red and black wires connected to 20 amp brkrs, white wire connected to the neutral bar and the bare copper wire connected to the ground lug / screw... there's no violation there. It's no different than any other 3-wire circuit.
    Your description is a 4 wire dryer circuit.

    Please read Jerrys post.

    A 10/3 multiwire cable has no ground unless maybe it is a 10/3 w grd or a 10/3 G...


    It's no different than any other 3-wire circuit.
    You would be correct except we don't have a 4 wire dryer circuit (your description would be just that) being converted to a 3 wire 120 volt gas dryer circuit

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 08-12-2010 at 11:00 PM.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    You and James have just proven my point about some inspectors not understanding the code ....
    Oh I understand perfectly, I think it might be you who does not understand. I was a licensed electrician in my previous life (through the 70's & 80's) how about you Roger, what's your electrical background ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    He incorrectly described the dryer circuit as a 220 volt circut .. cause he just doesn't understand that it is really a 3 wire 120/240 circuit..
    Who cares... 120/208... 110/220... 120/240... voltages can fluctuate and makes no difference in the context of the original question.


    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    where in my description did you see anything about a bare ground wire being present..... We are taking about a 3 wire 120/240 volt dryer circuit with no ground wire.

    Your description is a 4 wire dryer circuit.

    Please read Jerrys post.

    A 10/3 multiwire cable has no ground unless maybe it is a 10/3 w grd or a 10/3 G...

    You would be correct except we don't have a 4 wire dryer circuit (your description would be just that) being converted to a 3 wire 120 volt gas dryer circuit
    Really ? When describing cables, the ground wire is a given and is not part of the markings, ie: 14/2, 14/3, 10/3 means guage and number of insulated conductors (up here anyway). So a 10/3 cable would have a red, black, white & a bare ground and I'm sure it was that way back in the 70's, so no doubt a circa 85 house would have that as well. In fact, even the dryer outlets have 4-prongs, two hots a neutral and a ground. Capeesh ??

    Is that not the same in your part of the world ??

    Sheesh man, chill out !

    Joe Klampfer RHI
    www.myinspection.ca
    Pacific Home Inspections

  25. #25
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    You and James have just proven my point about some inspectors not understanding the code for this question brought up by greyhound. Or maybe James is just ignoring it....

    He incorrectly described the dryer circuit as a 220 volt circut .. cause he just doesn't understand that it is really a 3 wire 120/240 circuit..

    BTW Joe ... where in my description did you see anything about a bare ground wire being present..... We are taking about a 3 wire 120/240 volt dryer circuit with no ground wire.



    Your description is a 4 wire dryer circuit.

    Please read Jerrys post.

    A 10/3 multiwire cable has no ground unless maybe it is a 10/3 w grd or a 10/3 G...


    You would be correct except we don't have a 4 wire dryer circuit (your description would be just that) being converted to a 3 wire 120 volt gas dryer circuit
    I've had my electrical license since 1975. I know the code very well PLUS I have some common sense that I use also. As I have stated in other threads....it is a good thing that some HI have to defer to qualified contractors so they can cleanup the mess some HI leave when they do a report. To run a new cable just because the one in place has the wrong color wire makes no sense at all. But keep on....you keep me in business.


  26. #26
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    James
    It's rare that I am critical of what someone says, however I must say something about your post.

    "I've had my electrical license since 1975. I know the code very well PLUS I have some common sense that I use also."

    This an example of your "common sense" and knowledge of code.

    "I've made up 120 volt "pigtails" out of a three wire dryer cord by putting a 4" square box on the end of the dryer cord and installing a a 120 volt receptacle wired to one of the hots and the neutral. In this case you will also have to use the neutral as the ground on the 120 volt receptacle. There is really no restriction on what can be "plugged" into a receptacle. If you wanted to be really safe you could replace the 30 amp breaker with a 15 amp."

    "As I have stated in other threads....it is a good thing that some HI have to defer to qualified contractors so they can cleanup the mess some HI leave when they do a report."

    I can only be happy that you are not in my area, by chance I call for a "Qualified and Competent" electrician for a followup.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    You guys are way too nice to most everyone. When someone uses a "phantom" screen identity, they are likely some type of forum jumper homeowner, or a lawyer. This one, had the unmitigated gall to also be snotty. Since stoning is probably out, merely shunning may be the correct course.


  28. #28
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    Roger Frazee Guest

    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    an old 220v line (circa 1985) occupying two breakers in a 200 amp box is connected to a 3 prong receptacle in the basement and services an old electric dryer. Homeowner will convert to an LP gas dryer and wants to convert the three prong, 220v receptacle to a 110v receptacle to accommodate hew LP dryer and washer in the most cost efficient and above all else "code legal" manner.(bucks county PA).
    Call an electrician and have him set it up! OH you want directions. Sorry
    Google electrican, dial the # and tell him what you want.
    Have him come and do the work
    And, the deal killer, the part you are trying to avoid
    PAY HIM!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Roon View Post
    You guys are way too nice to most everyone. When someone uses a "phantom" screen identity, they are likely some type of forum jumper homeowner, or a lawyer. This one, had the unmitigated gall to also be snotty. Since stoning is probably out, merely shunning may be the correct course.
    Tom

    I just see a question in that first post and a thank you for any help. At that point a simple referral to another forum or just be told that this is not a diy forum would have been sufficient IMO. The next post was the snotty one ....

    I'll leave what his motives are up to those certified 'seers' on this board.

    James

    I was simply trying to tell you that your information wasn't exactly code compliant and that the question posed wasn't as simple as it seemed. Which is why I asked you to reread Jerrys post. I did not set out to personally attack only to see if you would consider that you might be wrong in your advice.

    Joe

    I did not set out to personally attack you either. I apologize if I misunderstood how Canada determines conductor count in the surface marking of it's permanent multiconductor cables.... If I want equipment ground I would purchase a 10/3 with ground (3 conductors plus a ground wire) and it will be marked that way. So it was my mistake and explains why you thought I meant a cable with ground.

    In the Usa when we talk about residential dryer branch circuit wiring we talk in terms of 3 wire and 4 wire 120/240 dryer circuits. A 3 wire dryer circuit that uses a 1030R (3 wire dryer receptacle) has no ground wire only 2 hots and neutral. It is no longer allowed since 1996. This is what the question addressed in post #1. He does not have an equipment ground wire.

    Anyway I owe you an apology in not understanding the Canada code. However the same is true with you since the poster with the question is from the USA ...

    As for your other questions

    Who cares... 120/208... 110/220... 120/240... voltages can fluctuate and makes no difference in the context of the original question.
    Your correct the voltage has nothing to do with the original question. However the wire size and number of wires supplying the dryer branch circuit whether with ground or not has everything to do with it. Remember he said 3 prong dryer receptacle ... for 220 volts...should have said 120/240 but .....


    Oh I understand perfectly,
    No I don't think you understand at all because you think (understandably so) he has 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground wire ...which would take a 4 prong 1430R dryer receptacle.

    I was a licensed electrician in my previous life (through the 70's & 80's) how about you Roger, what's your electrical background ?
    Pretty much the same as yours ... only I'm retired .. ...

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 08-13-2010 at 11:00 AM.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Cantrell View Post
    James
    It's rare that I am critical of what someone says, however I must say something about your post.

    "I've had my electrical license since 1975. I know the code very well PLUS I have some common sense that I use also."

    This an example of your "common sense" and knowledge of code.

    "I've made up 120 volt "pigtails" out of a three wire dryer cord by putting a 4" square box on the end of the dryer cord and installing a a 120 volt receptacle wired to one of the hots and the neutral. In this case you will also have to use the neutral as the ground on the 120 volt receptacle. There is really no restriction on what can be "plugged" into a receptacle. If you wanted to be really safe you could replace the 30 amp breaker with a 15 amp."

    "As I have stated in other threads....it is a good thing that some HI have to defer to qualified contractors so they can cleanup the mess some HI leave when they do a report."

    I can only be happy that you are not in my area, by chance I call for a "Qualified and Competent" electrician for a followup.
    I am sorry you disapprove. I was speaking of no one inparticlualr...just stating that I see a lot of items written up in need of repair when it is not. I am not into taking sellers money just because a HI says it needs to be repaired. Just like when I do a HI I do not try to spend the sellers money just because I can. I hope I am not in the minority thinking this way but I could be.

    I am also glad I do not work in your area because I would hate to be the one make you look bad in front of your client.


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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    an old 220v line (circa 1985) occupying two breakers in a 200 amp box is connected to a 3 prong receptacle in the basement and services an old electric dryer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    He incorrectly described the dryer circuit as a 220 volt circut .. cause he just doesn't understand that it is really a 3 wire 120/240 circuit.

    He didn't describe a 120/240 volt circuit, he did describe a 240 volt circuit. It really is not a 120/240 volt circuit.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  31. #31
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    He didn't describe a 120/240 volt circuit, he did describe a 240 volt circuit. It really is not a 120/240 volt circuit.
    Well I suppose your correct Jerry. It is true that we really don't know what he has for sure.

    I went with the odds that 220 volt circuit to a 3 prong receptacle for an old dryer would be a 3 wire dryer branch circuit to a 1030P. Which would imply 2 hots and a neutral serving 120 volt loads and 240 volt loads. Not familiar with 240 volt only residential dryers. So maybe I like chasing rabbits.....


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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    He didn't describe a 120/240 volt circuit, he did describe a 240 volt circuit. It really is not a 120/240 volt circuit.
    OK. What did I miss? Since when is an electric dryer circuit not 120/240 volt? Neutral, 2 different hot legs = 120/240 volt circuit.


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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    B.K. Sigh.....

    Lots of old appliances were straight 240V single phase NOT 120/240V and could be hooked up either way.

    Internal power supply (a transformer....egad!) on board for timer circuit on dryer or a clock on a wall oven or range, was at one time, THE NORM.

    Old ranges, wall ovens and electric cook tops as well as heats.

    No neutral needed on an appliance rated at 240V (NOT 120/240V)- just a ground and two hots, when system design voltage is split 240V, such an appliance is using full voltage both legs 180-degrees off. No current would be on an un-used "neutral" even if present.

    You'd have to CHECK THE RATING PLATE of the OLD APPLIANCE in question.You don't "need" a "neutral" in in split single phase full system voltage the half phases are exactly 180 degrees, you do need a ground reference. You only need a netural IF you are utilizing 120/240V or 120V. Polyphase system design voltage yes, half-phase, single phase, yes, full single phase, no.

    We now limit alternate paths for ground in wiring systems. We used to "float intermittant grounds" to metallic water pipes for 120V circuits too. All things permitted under former editions of the NEC! Using metallic conduit and not "a wire" for a grounding conductor in a circuit is still permitted, four "wires" are not necessary even today for a 120/240V branch circuit.


  34. #34
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    OK. What did I miss? Since when is an electric dryer circuit not 120/240 volt? Neutral, 2 different hot legs = 120/240 volt circuit.
    Bill

    You would be hard pressed for 'circa 1985' electric heat dryer to not be just that....

    What you have to assume is the poster was such a blooming idiot that he didn't realize that old 3 wire 120/240 volt dryer was plugged into a 240 volt circuit. And needed a power cord change to do that etc...etc...

    Now if he hadn't mentioned old dryer circa 1985 3 prong receptacle.....

    Not being DIY this forum was not able to ask questions for clarification which would have led to what he really has...ie.. the truth of his situation.

    Anyway he is on another forum now ..... which being DIY is where he belongs.


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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Jerrys post that explained that .. I'm willing to bet ... enlightened a few home inspectors here. Point being would all home inspectors if they were looking in the homes service equipment or distribution panel and saw a #10 black connected to a 20 amp breaker, a #10 white connected to the neutral bar and a #10 red or black marked green connected to either a neutral bar or grounding bar know it was a violation ? My opinion is some would come here and ask.... so the fact that the thread was continued even after the OP left .... something was learned by someone from that original question by the greyhound chasing the rabbit.....

    I don't think a #10 will fit the breaker, but they could be bugged to #12 in the panel (if allowable in the specific panel) and in the new outlet box.


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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Yes H G, definitely sigh........

    Virtually all electric residential dryers are 120/240 volt and have been for years (60 or more, with many rated to be used on a 120/208 circuit as well). The motor in most all residential dryers is 120 volt so that the same motor can be used in both electric and gas models. The single voltage type is to keep amateur installers from burning up things. 120 volts is often applied to the heating element for lower heat settings. Finally, any internal lights in the drum or for control back lighting were for years standard 120 volt lamps. Older small rating transformers suffered from many issues, not the least of which was size due to lack of good insulation materials and weren't something included when they could be avoided and reliability was an issue. AND, it was more common years ago in a residence to have 120 volts present without 240 than to have 240 without 120 (actually, probably 110 and 220 at the time) Additionally, the timer motors are generally 120 volt for the same reasons.

    The 3rd wire present in virtually all dryer circuits prior to the required ground wire was a neutral that got bonded to the dryer frame to provide a frame ground. Moreover, a standard 3 wire dryer receptacle doesn't have a green screw, it has a nickel plated one to indicate NEUTRAL. (didja ever check the colors in a 3 wire dryer cord?)

    Grounds are irrelevant to the operation of a dryer and no ground reference is needed for the operation of any 240 volt equipment. Grounded conductors, or neutrals, are, on the other hand, essential for any 120/240 volt circuit and for the vast majority of dryers sold in this country.

    I'd venture to guess that in any neighborhood if you picked 1000 houses with electric dryers, 999 of them would have a 120/240 volt circuit. Even here where we build new houses that have 3 phase in ski resort areas, unless commercial laundry equipment is used the dryer will be a 120/208-240 volt single phase. The exception would be imports.

    If you were talking about built-in cook tops and ovens I would agree that some are 240 volt only. Free standing ranges - I don't think so, unless imported.

    Now, with the info given in the OPs post, nothing is explained in enough detail to know for sure what he has. But given the time frame, it is most likely he has a 3 conductor cable without a separate ground wire. And, it is most likely that the grounded conductor is/was used as a neutral by the 120/240 volt dryer plugged into it. And, for the dryer to be wired as directed by the factory, the frame would be bonded to the neutral at the terminal strip where the cord attaches. In rare cases you would also find a ground wire from the dryer attached to a water line providing a parallel neutral path, both dangerous and illegal.


    Now, with that, just cut the BS. I've been in the electrical business longer than you've been trying to convince people you know something about it. You need to get out and examine how things really are before that dementia overtakes you completely.


  37. #37
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Guys,

    THIS is why I said that is not a 120/240 volts circuit:

    Quote Originally Posted by greyhound1 View Post
    wants to convert the three prong, 220v receptacle to a 110v receptacle

    With the clothes dryer attached as it was originally wired and configured with the neutral used as the ground, with two hot conductors, that was (Practically speaking as this was only allowed for clothes dryers and ranges and only under special conditions) a 'special permission' 120/240 volt circuit as the neutral was used for the ground, which is not allowed (except for those two special exceptions and within the conditions allowed within the code), ... BUT ... *as soon as* ... as soon as the clothes dryer was removed that was no longer an allowed circuit, the circuit would be required to have a ground, but a neutral is not "required" for a 240 volt circuit, thus that circuit *IS* a 240 volt only circuit as there is no neutral (it is now being used as the required ground and is no longer allowed to be used as a ground/neutral combination conductor).

    I apparently did not explain the thought process which needed to be thought through in relation to what *was* there and what *is* there now ... to me it was clear, but I should have explained what I was referring to.

    H. G. did bring up a good point, though, as there are some 240 volt only circuits in a house, and I have seen a few to 240 volt only clothes dryers and ranges, but not many, and not in a long time. Basically, you will find 240 only circuits to the water heater, the air conditioner air handler and condenser units, but not many other appliances (I am also sure someone will name a common one I forgot to include ).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  38. #38
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Guys,

    THIS is why I said that is not a 120/240 volts circuit:




    With the clothes dryer attached as it was originally wired and configured with the neutral used as the ground, with two hot conductors, that was (Practically speaking as this was only allowed for clothes dryers and ranges and only under special conditions) a 'special permission' 120/240 volt circuit as the neutral was used for the ground, which is not allowed (except for those two special exceptions and within the conditions allowed within the code), ... BUT ... *as soon as* ... as soon as the clothes dryer was removed that was no longer an allowed circuit, the circuit would be required to have a ground, but a neutral is not "required" for a 240 volt circuit, thus that circuit *IS* a 240 volt only circuit as there is no neutral (it is now being used as the required ground and is no longer allowed to be used as a ground/neutral combination conductor).

    I apparently did not explain the thought process which needed to be thought through in relation to what *was* there and what *is* there now ... to me it was clear, but I should have explained what I was referring to.

    H. G. did bring up a good point, though, as there are some 240 volt only circuits in a house, and I have seen a few to 240 volt only clothes dryers and ranges, but not many, and not in a long time. Basically, you will find 240 only circuits to the water heater, the air conditioner air handler and condenser units, but not many other appliances (I am also sure someone will name a common one I forgot to include ).
    I disagree with that thought process assuming the wires are all insulated and smaller than 4 awg...can you reidentify any of the three insulated conductors as egc in order to call it a 240 volt circuit?? I thought it was only allowed to reidentify a conductor as egc when specified in 250.119(B). If that is correct then the circuit is unusable for any circuit requiring an egc.

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 08-14-2010 at 02:39 PM. Reason: changed text to clarify

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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Jerry P,

    25-35 years ago is about when the previous abundance of 240V ranges, clothes dryers, etc. started dropping off in the market place. In my memory I associate this with the time frame that changes in standards prohibited push button controls with a face up orientation, and push button controls all together soon after, but it may have been beyond that. Pretty much by the time US manufacture and export dropping off and branded names actually manufactured by companies of the same name the practice ended. Sophisticated electronics, features, and the introductions of planned obsolescence and leasing/selling off of IP branded trademarked names plastered on junk happened soon after.

    Electric PTAC units, electric baseboard heat with line voltage T-stats, large in-wall or window AC units, Heats for air handlers or furnaces.

    It used to be pretty standard that almost any appliance lamp was 250V listed back-in-the-day (and they lasted) even when a 120/240, and the lighting circuit was 120v.

    Common from WWII to mid 80s or 90s. IIRC all out restriction to install new recept. was final 90s.

    Can't quite place at the moment phase-in of present identification of grounding conductors and phase-out/restriction of bare grounded conductors in branch circuits and the present language regarding present identification of ungrounded (hot) conductors and I am just not driven to refresh my failing memory at the moment. Somewhere along the overall timeline some plug and receptacle configurations have dropped by the wayside also.


  40. #40
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    I have never experienced so much discussion over 10 cents worth of tape. The AHJ in the areas I work in allow you to use existing wires to refeed new equipment as long as the wires are identified properly.

    One thing I see regularly is a 90 or 100 amp two pole breaker in a panel that feeds a panel in the crawl space. The crawl space panel at one time fed a heat pump that was 240 volt only but the heat pump was replaced with a gas furnace than required a 120 volt circuit. The most common fix is to make one of the 100 amp hot wires into a neutral by taking the wire off on the 100 breaker and connecting to the neutral bar and on the other end taking the wire off of the hot lug and putting it on the previously unused neutral bar. This leaves one wire on the 100 amp breaker feeding the panel in the crawl space. Have not ever had it turned down by a code inspector.


  41. #41
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    I have never experienced so much discussion over 10 cents worth of tape. The AHJ in the areas I work in allow you to use existing wires to refeed new equipment as long as the wires are identified properly.

    One thing I see regularly is a 90 or 100 amp two pole breaker in a panel that feeds a panel in the crawl space. The crawl space panel at one time fed a heat pump that was 240 volt only but the heat pump was replaced with a gas furnace than required a 120 volt circuit. The most common fix is to make one of the 100 amp hot wires into a neutral by taking the wire off on the 100 breaker and connecting to the neutral bar and on the other end taking the wire off of the hot lug and putting it on the previously unused neutral bar. This leaves one wire on the 100 amp breaker feeding the panel in the crawl space. Have not ever had it turned down by a code inspector.


    James:

    I do agree that we have probably chased the rabbit too long.... but my point was that it might be beneficial to everyone here to pursue NEC CODE and how it would allow or disallow converting that dryer circuit to 120 volts. What your AHJ lets you do is another story.

    Your example deals with conductors 4 awg or larger, though the 90 amp is questionable and there is an egc there somewhere , hopefully installed correctly....


  42. #42
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    James:

    I do agree that we have probably chased the rabbit too long.... but my point was that it might be beneficial to everyone here to pursue NEC CODE and how it would allow or disallow converting that dryer circuit to 120 volts. What your AHJ lets you do is another story.

    Your example deals with conductors 4 awg or larger, though the 90 amp is questionable and there is an egc there somewhere , hopefully installed correctly....
    You are correct...there is a EGC in the three-wire cable....thanks for the clarification.


  43. #43
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    You are correct...there is a EGC in the three-wire cable....thanks for the clarification.
    James

    Where I have been chasing the rabbit is IF we have 3 insulated wires only (very common) in that dryer circuit no equipment ground available.. metal conduit or otherwise .. then they would be #10 copper most likely if circa 1985 and they would be insulated. Lets say they are red, black and white probably in a nm type cable. IMO if you go strickly by the NEC it would not allow reidentifying any of those conductors as equipment ground because they are smaller that 4 awg. I very well could be proven wrong and I'm sure someone won't be long in pointing that out ... But if correct then the circuit could not be converted to 120 volts or 240 volts.


  44. #44
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    We are fortunate that our AHJ is flexible on renovations and up-fits. As long as the wire is large enough, fused properly, and identified properly there is no problem with using existing wiring. For a new installation they are not that flexible. The bottom line is safety and the color does not affect that. Wires are like people...the color don't matter....what matters is what's inside.


  45. #45
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    We are fortunate that our AHJ is flexible on renovations and up-fits. As long as the wire is large enough, fused properly, and identified properly there is no problem with using existing wiring. For a new installation they are not that flexible. The bottom line is safety and the color does not affect that. Wires are like people...the color don't matter....what matters is what's inside.
    I would mostly agree with that but ya gotta be careful remarking conductors. The IEC (UK and Europe) underwent a complete overhaul of wire colors in 2005... Black was neutral and changed to Blue and Red was ungrounded hot and changed to Brown. This for their 250 volts which is like our 120 volts. Gives me a headache....


  46. #46
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    That's a whole nother subject so I'll stick to 'merican colors!


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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    I disagree with that thought process assuming the wires are all insulated and smaller than 4 awg...can you reidentify any of the three insulated conductors as egc in order to call it a 240 volt circuit?? I thought it was only allowed to reidentify a conductor as egc when specified in 250.119(B). If that is correct then the circuit is unusable for any circuit requiring an egc.
    Let us presume there are three conductors, one red, one black, and one white.

    Now let's go to 250.119(B)(1):
    - 250.119 Identification of Equipment Grounding Conductors.
    - - Unless required elsewhere in this Code, equipment grounding conductors shall be permitted to be bare, covered, or insulated. Individually covered or insulated equipment grounding conductors shall have a continuous outer finish that is either green or green with one or more yellow stripes except as permitted in this section. Conductors with insulation or individual covering that is green, green with one or more yellow stripes, or otherwise identified as permitted by this section shall not be used for ungrounded or grounded circuit conductors.
    - - - (B) Multiconductor Cable. Where the conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation, one or more insulated conductors in a multiconductor cable, at the time of installation, shall be permitted to be permanently identified as equipment grounding conductors at each end and at every point where the conductors are accessible by one of the following means:
    - - - - (1) Stripping the insulation from the entire exposed length
    - - - - (2) Coloring the exposed insulation green
    - - - - (3) Marking the exposed insulation with green tape or green adhesive labels

    Now let us presume that the AHJ is not a TOTAL stickler and is not a TOTAL stick in the mud, after all, MOST AHJ have, and use, some sense of their allowed:
    - 110.2 Approval. The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved.

    This is, of course, providing that in their minds (and the minds of other sane people) consider:
    - 110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.
    - - (A) Examination. In judging equipment, considerations such as the following shall be evaluated:
    - - - (1) Suitability for installation and use in conformity with the provisions of this Code
    - - - (2) Mechanical strength and durability, including, for parts designed to enclose and protect other equipment, the adequacy of the protection thus provided
    - - - (8) Other factors that contribute to the practical safeguarding of persons using or likely to come in contact with the equipment

    Yes, those do give the AHJ some discretion to use their judgment in the above manner. And, yes, I am a stickler for the code as written and its INTENT, which is what we are getting into now. So, let's go back to:
    - 250.119 (B) (1) Stripping the insulation from the entire exposed length

    If that were done, would not that solve the identification by colored insulation of other than green problem PERMANENTLY?

    Which would leave a 240 volt ONLY circuit.

    Then, as someone suggested in their post above, one could even reidentify the red or black conductor to white, which is allowed, and have a single 120 volt circuit of 30 amps, which, of course, is not useful for much as a 30 amp 120 volt circuit as it would need to be protected with a 15 amp or 20 amp breaker to use for a 120 volt 15 amp or 20 amp receptacle outlet, which is where a small panel could be installed with the 30 amp circuit supplying one side of the panel and two 15 amp circuits run off that panel, or even four 15 amp circuits, considering that the feeder is protected at 30 amps and the most one will get through that panel, regardless how many circuits come from that panel, is going to be 30 amps before it trips the 30 amp breaker protecting that 30 amp feeder.

    Practical? Nope. Possible? Yes, if done correctly. Likely to be done correctly? Nope.

    The more this is discussed the more options there are to consider and think about.

    When one does code inspections and enforces the code, one needs to think about and understand the INTENT of the code, and that INTENT is to establish a MINIMUM level of safety.

    That MINIMUM level of safety could, with everything I have thought of and considered so far (which does not include everything, just everything "so far", because there are others who can add to the considerations, both positive and negative), be attained by stripping that white insulation off the white conductor and making it a bare, solid, copper conductor FOR THE ENTIRE EXPOSED length of the conductor at ALL such exposed and accessible locations (basically that would most likely be a each end of the circuit as it probably does not go through other junction boxes - it most likely goes from the panel directly to the dryer receptacle).

    I know, I know, you are probably going to throw in "Where the conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation", and with the white insulation fully stripped back at all the exposed and accessible locations, the only access to the remaining white conductor will be within the walls/ceilings/etc and will likely be done by a licensed electrician - who *should be* a "qualified person".

    Can a homeowner work on their own home electrical system? You bet.

    Can a other-than-"qualified person" work on an commercial or industrial electrical system and defeat that section anyway? You bet.

    So ... what is the difference in the final outcome and INTENT of creating an electrical circuit which meets a MINIMUM level of safety?

    Will the above wrinkle some feathers and make some GASP in disbelief? Probably. But I have been known to do that before. In fact, the more one gasps in disbelief, the less one actually knows me and what and how I think ... and I like that.

    I am a stickler for the codes, but I am not a "TOTAL stickler and is not a TOTAL stick in the mud" and I do "have, and use, some sense" in what I do.

    Now, *IF* you can show me where I am TOTALLY WRONG in the above, I have been known to change my ways and think differently - although I have to warn you that you have to be TOTALLY CONVINCING and not have any room for error, otherwise your position would not be valid enough for me.

    I am open to learning and hearing what you have to say - so now it is your turn at the podium.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  48. #48
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    I've never been on the podium before so thank you for the opportunity.....

    It would be less than fair if I did not give my best try at countering your very well constructed argument. So here goes.

    The code language you qoute certainly does give the AHJ the authority to allow the conductors to be reidentified as egc .... however I fail to see how you apply that to the question at hand because there has been no approval given to us by any ahj. To say you need ahj approval is an admission that it is not allowed in any code language. It is also uncertain that you will get that permission. All we now is we have a red,black and white conductor smaller than 4 awg and no egc provided. So without us whisking in an ahj we must prove that the code language supports some means to identify one of those conductors as an equipment ground.

    That question is...

    Can you reidentify an insulated conductor that is not green, green and yellow striped or bare as equipment ground..

    Underlines are mine

    250.119 Identification of Equipment Grounding Conductors.
    - - Unless required elsewhere in this Code, equipment grounding conductors shall be permitted to be bare, covered, or insulated. Individually covered or insulated equipment grounding conductors shall have a continuous outer finish that is either green or green with one or more yellow stripes . Conductors with insulation or individual covering that is green, green with one or more yellow stripes, or otherwise identified as permitted by this section shall not be used for ungrounded or grounded circuit conductors
    No where in that is permission given to create an equipment ground by coloring or stripping insulation to make an equipment ground that meets the required identification for an egc as given by 250.119. It does tell us that if it is insulated it must have a continuous covering that is green or green and yellow striped. It says nothing about continuous when speaking of a bare egc.

    So does the code support a method that is going to allow remarking or stripping the insulation of one of the 3 conductors in question to meet 250.119 ?

    Your quote and words

    - 250.119 (B) (1) Stripping the insulation from the entire exposed length

    If that were done, would not that solve the identification by colored insulation of other than green problem PERMANENTLY?
    First your trying to dance around the fact that the INTENT of that sub-section is not a single family dwelling.

    And further in order to even do that it has to be at the time of installation ... our wires are already installed and have been for some time.

    I know, I know, you are probably going to throw in "Where the conditions of maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation", and with the white insulation fully stripped back at all the exposed and accessible locations, the only access to the remaining white conductor will be within the walls/ceilings/etc and will likely be done by a licensed electrician - who *should be* a "qualified person".
    'Likely' is a far cry from the word 'ensure' ...

    So ,yes I am,.. throwing it in.. and just did.

    Your stretching things a tad Jerry .. don't you think? You can't insure qualified people
    in a residential home.You and I both know what the intent for that section of code is addressing. You can't refer to that section of code and apply it to the situation at hand.

    So where does that leave us? Yep we end up realizing we just danced around 250.119(A)

    Conductors Larger than 6 awg. Equipment Grounding conductors larger than 6 awg shall comply with 250.119(A)(1) and (A)(2).

    (1) An insulated or covered conductor larger than 6 awg shall be permitted, at the time of installation , to be permanently identified as an equipment grounding conductor at each end and at every point where the conductor is accessible..

    No need to list the means to do so ... cause we don't have conductors larger than 6 awg.

    Now INTENT would be that anything smaller than 4 awg that is not in compliance with 250.119 first paragraph cannot be re-identified as egc.

    But what about a white conductor ? Seems that nowhere in 250.119 does it make any allowance for a grounded conductor (white) but it would be prudent to look at article 200 to see if a grounded conductor with white insulation smaller than 4 awg to be re-identified as equipment ground.

    200.6(A) Means Of Identifying Grounded Conductors

    (A) Sizes 6 awg and smaller

    An insulated grounded conductor of 6 awg or smaller shall be identified by a continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length.

    Seems they are not too keen on crossing grounded conductors with green equipment ground.

    Reading the rest of 200.6 (A) thru (E) NEC 2008 shows no allowance to remark a grounded conductor of white or gray insulation as equipment ground regardless of size. NO allowance to strip a grounded conductor with white or gray insulation to a bare at all accessible point either.
    200.6(E) does allow insulated conductors in armored flex cable other than white or gray regardless of size to be marked as grounded conductors provided they are not green insulated....again staying away from egc identified conductors.

    Then, as someone suggested in their post above, one could even reidentify the red or black conductor to white, which is allowed, and have a single 120 volt circuit of 30 amps,
    I'm reading the code to say in order to do that it must be larger than 6 awg or if 6 awg or smaller it must be white or gray or 3 white stripes over its entire length not just accessible points. Would be hard to do that ...no?

    200.7 (C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More

    We almost get what we want here.

    The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has 3 continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits that are 50 volts or more shall be permitted as in (1) thru (3).


    (1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently re-identified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. Identification shall encircle the insulation and shall be a color other than white, gray or green


    Well... close... but as it turns out it clearly forbids reidentifying the grounded conductor (white) as green meaning you cannot identify it as egc only as a ungrounded conductor.

    This does explain why we can use the white grounded conductor as ungrounded for a 240 volt circuit.

    NO allowance to strip to bare that I can find in article 200.

    (2) Talks about switch loops and identifying as an ungrounded conductor
    (3) Flexible cord ....so nope not in there.

    So now to get full circle .. can we identify one of the ungrounded conductors in that dryer circuit as egc ? ... now that we know we can identify white as ungrounded.


    Well the dryer is a branch circuit so looking at

    210.5 (C) Ungrounded conductors

    I find NO allowance for remarking to egc. Sorry don't feel; like posting the whole thing

    310.12 Conductor Identification

    (A) Grounded Conductors

    Insulated or covered grounded conductors shall be identified in accordance with 200.6.

    Nope been there already

    (B) Equipment Grounding Conductors

    Equipment grounding conductors shall be in accordance with 250.119

    Nope been there too

    (C) Ungrounded Conductors

    Conductors that are intended for use as ungrounded conductors, whether used as single conductors or in multi-conductor cables, shall be finished to be clearly marked and distinguishable from grounded and grounding conductors.

    No allowance to strip or remark as egc nor in the references to 210.5 or 215.12


    Well It is late Jerry but IMO the code is clear and the intent is clear you cannot reidentify a white, gray or 3 white striped conductor smaller than 4 awg as an equipment ground. Nor can you remark a ungrounded conductor smaller than 4 awg that is color coded as such as egc.

    You can have your podium back now.

    FWIW I did'nt chase this rabbit just to cause a mess out of the thread. I honestly felt that there would be something to learn for all here.

    I also have a new found respect for home inspectors from reading this forum and many who post here ... they are not the dummies so many electricians say they are.

    I give credit where credit is due and you and a few others here may be the best I've ever witnessed with the dissection of the NEC and its intent. I'm retired but just have a desire to learn what I missed or misunderstood in my career. This forum has been a great place to learn those things I didn't know or or thought I knew but was wrong.

    I post here because to not post means I have no confidence in any anything I learned in the industry over a long career. And when you post on this forum you better have confidence and you better be prepared to find out you may be wrong....

    Hopefully I can contribute to offset the headaches I cause...

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 08-15-2010 at 10:42 AM.

  49. #49
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Roger
    Some of what you said was over my head, well..., a lot, OK most. But you said it very well.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  50. #50
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Don,
    Thanks for the hand slap. REALLY????? You must have missed the part in all caps where I told them to call an electrician if they were not comfortable or SKILLED enough to work with electricity.

    "The most important part of this entire thing is IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE OR SKILLED ENOUGH TO WORK WITH ELECTRICITY, DO NOT OPEN THE PANEL AND DO STEPS 2 THRU 7. Call an electrician."


  51. #51
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Roger,

    Where to start ... (I will only hit a few points, otherwise this would be quite long)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    To say you need ahj approval is an admission that it is not allowed in any code language.
    "is an admission that it is not allowed in any code language."

    Actually, that is an admission that it is allowed by THAT code language - go back and read that part of the CODE again, and that "is" "code language".

    That question is...

    Can you reidentify an insulated conductor that is not green, green and yellow striped or bare as equipment ground..
    You are mixing apples and oranges and asking if it is okay to peel an orange and then you pick up an apple - once the conductor is being used as a groundING conductor it no longer falls under the groundED conductor sections, which makes those sections no longer applicable.

    And further in order to even do that it has to be at the time of installation ... our wires are already installed and have been for some time.
    The groundED conductor has been installed for quite some time, the groundING conductor has just been "installed" by virtue that it was not there and is now there.

    So where does that leave us? Yep we end up realizing we just danced around 250.119(A)
    Nope. We danced around the mulberry bush, which is the groundING bush, we did not dance around the briar patch, which is the groundED bush - thus we did not dance around 250.119.A as it simply does not apply to groundING conductors.

    FWIW I did'nt chase this rabbit just to cause a mess out of the thread. I honestly felt that there would be something to learn for all here.
    The same reason I post here, and in fact I learn a lot too, because when others kick in their ideas it broadens the base of information I am learning from and considering while doing that learning.

    Hopefully I can contribute to offset the headaches I cause...
    You have contributed, keep contributing.

    Similar to what you said, I started out as a General Contractor with electrical experience (starting working with my Dad, and electrical contractor, when I was about 10) and the first things I learned when I started doing home inspections in 1990 (may have been 1989?) was that I had been doing things wrong, so I started reading the code books (few contractors actually read code books and try to figure out why and how to do what they do) and found new knowledge that further confirmed that while I had been doing construction as I had learned from others I, and them, had been doing it wrong.

    Except instead of being one of the contractors who said "I've been doing it this way for 30 years ... " I changed how I was doing it and then had a comeback response for those contractors "You do realize that the codes are changed and updated every 3 years right, which likely means you've been doing it wrong the last 27 years ... "

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  52. #52
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Whew!!

    I agree this is getting looooooong....

    My brief stay at the 'podium' was certainly a lesson in learning ..... I think I'll let you have it back and return to the audience....

    I'm not sure how many people spent the time to read all that has been said .. it did get a bit long. I didn't think it would turn into this....

    Remind me not too challenge you in the future ... LOL

    Like you .. I have more to say .. but IMO time to let go ... Thanks for your always professional opinion.


  53. #53
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    I would like to simply add that not all egc's are "wire", there are other wiring methods besides non metallic cable, and there are limits as to the awg size permitted to used when attaching 15/20A 125V receptacles.


  54. #54
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I would like to simply add that not all egc's are "wire", there are other wiring methods besides non metallic cable, and there are limits as to the awg size permitted to used when attaching 15/20A 125V receptacles.
    That's true about the egc's ...since there were several rabbits running in front of my greyhound I just happened to chase the one that looked like a non-metallic cable and no equjpment ground present for us to use.... I didn't catch it but I knocked a little fur off the beggar...

    Assuming the wiring method utilized is at a maximum #10 awg you wouldn't have a problem finding a 15/20 amp 125 volt receptacle that would alow it. However there are also many that will not accept over #12 awg.

    It still seems to me not chasing any rabbits and asuming the time frame it would likely be be a 3 wire dryer circuit installed to pre-1996 code standards ..no equipment ground necessary...is one there ...maybe .. The rabbit we are chasing assumes no equipment ground and non-metallic cable 3 insulated conductors or this discussion would have ended long ago.

    So my opinion is if the rabbit we are chasing is the rabbit we have then whether or not the dryer is connected to that 1030P we simply have to look at it as an existing 3 wire 120/240 dryer circuit with a neutral not 240 volts without one.

    I'm now reviewing what Jerry pointed out in his last post .. likely I will learn something I missed but I'm starting to get a sore on my head from scratching it. So I'm stopping with this reply so I can heal up a bit.


  55. #55
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    R.F.

    Okay I'm making one last observation here then I'm dropping this silly thread. That would be PRE-1985 (not just "pre-1996)!

    The Original poster gave location as the state (Commonwealth) of Pennsylvania. The orginal poster indicated the present individual branch circuit/receptacle condition was circa 1985. Print editions of the NEC not withstanding, during that era the Commonwealth of PA did not have a uniform adoption of at that time, most recent edition of the NEC. Restrictions which bring us to modern day began mid 80s, became somewhat muddled in the next three editions, and further restricted in the 1996, etc.

    Additionally, I recall NO indication from the OP as to the type of conductors present nor their size, specifically no indications of Copper, copper coated aluminum, or aluminum (let alone what alloy of same; nor the age of the panel, or the conductors of this individual branch circuit (just that the receptacle installation was circa 1985 and that the existing dryer was OLD); and we have neither a description of the panel feeding this circuit nor its source.

    Therefore, your "opinion", as to what "must be the case" for a last modified or installed condition circa 1985, just isn't valid. At best a hypothesis, but based on flawed assumptions (not the least of which is what was permissible at the time, and presuming anything present was permissible at the time of installation, or that the OPs "presentation" was in anyway an accurate representation of the conditions) and wiring. No separate "neutral" or grounded conductor was necessary, grounding /bonding path was (ground). 240V AC/ split 1 PH to the terminal block on the appliance (hot, hot and ground).

    Two pole with ground is the determinative description for the receptacle and plug type intimated by the OP in the original post. That would be a 250V receptacle (R) and Plug (P) vintage 1985 or prior.

    The OP cannot "repurpose" or "convert" just the receptacle. The at present 250V receptacle and 240V individual branch circuit is presently sourced from TWO (single pole) circuit breakers (according to the OP's description, although I suspect otherwise, although to an unqualified person may appear to be two separate circuit breakers). Redesign and repurposing here must begin at the panel and be done (this is NOT maintenance) by TODAY'S standards and in compliance with TODAY'S code (in place with any local ammendments) for the jurisdiction.

    There was no photo, suspect description, vague and ominous proposition, and obviously a DIY type post. Further discussion or debate is really unnecessary regarding the original topic of this thread.

    Let us put this thread to rest where it should have been quite some time ago. "Put a fork in it, its done" as "they say".

    R.I.P. ,

    H.G.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 08-15-2010 at 01:31 PM.

  56. #56
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    Default Re: electric dryer: old; gas dryer: new

    I know we want this thread to end ..

    I'm simply revisiting to make it clear in case it wasn't clear what my point was and to try to post substantiation.

    IMO the dryer talked about in this thread was most likely though not positively supplied by a 3 wire H-H-N branch circuit. Making it a 120 / 240 volt circuit. If the 3 conductors are insulated then they are likely 6 awg or smaller. No equipment ground would be present in the rabbit I was chasing..... which is very common. I did this only to learn or explore the code compliance to remark any of those 3 conductors as equipment ground. IMO the outcome would be beneficial to all here .. as it would apply to more than just an old 3 wire dryer circuit.

    That being the case it would be a violation to just walk up to a white insulated grounded conductor or any insulated conductor smaller than 4awg in a single family home and mark it equipment ground if it wasn't already green, green and yellow striped or bare.

    Speaking strictly of code compliance IMO you are not allowed to do that in order to make that circuit 240 volts only. You would need AHJ approval for the exception to do so. This would be true for any conductor 6 awg or smaller that is not already factory marked/coded as equipment grounded in accordance with 250.119.

    It was very difficult to find substantiation other than my opinion so I finally did locate this from IMSA. Though not what I would have liked it does support what my point was addressing...

    IMSA Journal Feature Article
    Jan/Feb 2003
    IMSA Journal

    Green, Green with Yellow Stripe-Equipment Grounding Conductor
    ARTICLE 250 Grounding
    Section 250.119 Identification of Equipment Grounding Conductors.
    For conductors 6 AWG and smaller, the equipment grounding conductor is identified by green outer finish or green with yellow stripe(s).
    (A) Conductors Larger Than 6 AWG.
    Insulated conductors 4 AWG and larger can be permanently reidentified when installed by:
    (1) Stripping the insulation from the length of the exposed conductor
    (2) Coloring the exposed insulation or covering green
    (3) Marking the exposed insulation or covering with green tape or green adhesive labels
    Comment: The “equipment grounding conductor” is commonly and incorrectly referred to as “ground wire” or “green wire”. This conductor bonds together the metal enclosures and raceways to the grounded conductor or grounding electrode conductor at the service. Metallic raceways can be and are often the equipment grounding conductor, see NEC [Section 250.118]. The identification requirements are similar to that of the grounded conductor, and remarking a 6 AWG and smaller conductor with green phase tape is a violation, although it is commonly done.

    IMSA Home
    By: Tom Baker

    No having posted this I apologize if this thread is 'silly' and I will have to agree with HG and Jerry that based on what the greyhound said you would have to consider the circuit 240 volts until proven otherwise.

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 08-16-2010 at 08:29 AM.

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