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  1. #1
    Todd Last's Avatar
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    Default Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Is it to code to have Romex though the wall to the dishwasher?
    I don't know why they just did not use the existing box.
    Can anyone shed light on this practice and if it is allowable?

    thanks

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Todd Last,

    First of all I notice you recently joined the forum. Welcome. Have you introduced yourself yet? Expanded your "profile"? I invite you to do so.

    I don't care what the "purpose" is, you cannot have romex or similar cabling materials simply emerge/dissapear/penetrate wall coverings. This Non-metallic sheathed cable requires protection including bend radius, securing, and from penetrations and abrasions. Much is outlined in the section discussing Type NM cable in the NEC.

    There are right ways and wrong ways (methods) to terminate cables and create an electrical "outlet" (not necessarily a receptacle, but a point of USE) on a branch circuit, and overall premisis electrical wiring system(s). This is not one of the "right" ways to install or use NM cable.

    Not a valid chapter 3 wiring method/use of materials, which also brings us to 110.

    You also have exposed wiring in the pictured box adjacent - no proper cover, the box does not appear properly secured or placed, the wall finish gap is unacceptable large at the top and left, and the box appears to have been installed by an unskilled and unqualified person, suspect abutted against the floor plate likely not firestopped penetration from below..

    Regarding your "dishwasher" specific reference and what materials may be properly used so as to electrically connect an "installed" and "in place" fixed appliance (and as it would be necessarily connected to both the potable plumbing and drainage venting and waste plumbing systems as well as being secured to fixed surfaces, what is proposed is not one of them.

    Specific limitations are further influenced by the acceptability and presence or not of an indicating "off" function integral to the appliance, which may or may not be qualifying as a disconnect per exception in the specific code section, and other factors specific to the electrical system design, the branch circuit characteristics, the rating plate information on the appliance, and of course the manufacturer's (of the assumed listed for residential use) instructions, recommenations, and listing limitations of the residential automatic dish washing machine.If you use the search feature on the instant board, as well as searching the archived site (inspectionnews.com), perhaps using keywords such as "dishwasher" you will find many, many discussions on the topic of dishwashing machines, you will also find many references to the UL "category code" for such equipment and this will bring you also to the Standards for the Listing of such appliances, to wit provides further and specific limitations regarding installation of same.

    Similar searches on subject of NM, NM-B, ("romex"), Wiring methods, limitations, Listing, Standards, etc.

    HTH.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-03-2010 at 01:15 PM.

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    Wink Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Hi Todd,

    Welcome to the forum. All you need to say is that there are defective electrical components under the sink which service the dishwasher and recommend a qualified electrician to correct. Any thing else is just to show off; KISS "keep it simple Stupid".


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Last View Post
    Is it to code to have Romex though the wall to the dishwasher?
    I don't know why they just did not use the existing box.
    Can anyone shed light on this practice and if it is allowable?

    thanks
    Hi Todd

    I think HG and Tom covered most of the bases but to answer your questions ..


    Is it to code to have Romex though the wall to the dishwasher?
    As Hg mentioned not like what you have in your picture.

    Can you have nm-b (romex) exposed under a fixed 'in cabinet' dishwasher then ran to the wiring compartment of the dishwasher (usually in the front area). Yes you can.

    I don't know why they just did not use the existing box.
    Because whoever did that didn't know how to use the existing box correctly. They had to do what you are seeing because they needed to get the spliced extension going to the dishwasher wiring compartment into back of the box and thru a cable hole in the back of the box. So they punched a hole in the wall....aka.. hack work..

    What they should have done was purchased a plastic blank cover with center knockout hole. Installed a non metalic romex cable clamp in that knockout then made up the splices in wirenuts then installed the cover.

    There are better ways but that is how they should have handled the situation you are showing in your picture.

    Can anyone shed light on this practice and if it is allowable?
    As mentioned by HG ...not allowable as you are showing us.

    The romex is allowable and that box is allowable (if covered correctly). You cannot have those exposed splices or the hole in the wall with romex coming out.

    Not the way I would run a branch circuit to a dishwasher .. there are better quality methods.


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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas McKay View Post
    Hi Todd,

    Welcome to the forum. All you need to say is that there are defective electrical components under the sink which service the dishwasher and recommend a qualified electrician to correct. Any thing else is just to show off; KISS "keep it simple Stupid".
    1. Where did you get the "idea" that any part of the electrical system was anywhere under a "sink"? Did you just invent this? OP attached a remark containing singular photo - did you read those remarks? Where has it been indicated that any electrical system componant is routed anywhere under a sink? Dishwasher under a sink usually difficult to accomplish.

    2. The OP asked a "code" question, for whatever reason. AFAIK could be a question about his own residence.

    3. At this point, I see nothing from the OP (including the status of his present profile) to indicate he is a HI, at least not yet. He just joined, has indicated no such thing on his profile, and his only other participation was to post:

    "I know that with Hardie Plank they originally specified caulking and now they say no caulking, but rather to have flashing behind the joints. At least in Portland Or. some builders seem to be slow to switch over to the non-caulk method and still caulk even though it is no longer recommended."
    On a Caulk or No Caulk thread, which was recently revived, six weeks after the intitial discussion had retired, sans posts deleted; That's it.

    4. Seems some logic leaping and loads of ASS-U-ming is going on in the KISS department "peanut gallery" .

    5. If you don't like someone's question, or someone's response to that question, you are under no obligation to respond to it/them.

    Is it to code to have Romex though the wall to the dishwasher?
    I don't know why they just did not use the existing box.
    Can anyone shed light on this practice and if it is allowable?

    thanks



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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    From the looks of the flooring, that is either a dishwasher you pulled out of the opening , or a free standing model you can see behind. That is flooring isn't it? Which one is it.
    Not that that would affect the poor wiring job, but I would not be pulling dishwashers out of their openings to inspect, although, that is a good catch.
    And you may find that on 8 out of 10 if you were to pull them out.
    I may even have one of those in my house HAHA
    And don't let the inhouse bickering scare you, It's ALL good info, just some of it is beat into a pulp, regurgitated, beat up again, and then served up to some poor slob just looking for a meal


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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Hi Todd

    I think HG and Tom covered most of the bases but to answer your questions ..




    As Hg mentioned not like what you have in your picture.

    Can you have nm-b (romex) exposed under a fixed 'in cabinet' dishwasher then ran to the wiring compartment of the dishwasher (usually in the front area). Yes you can.



    Because whoever did that didn't know how to use the existing box correctly. They had to do what you are seeing because they needed to get the spliced extension going to the dishwasher wiring compartment into back of the box and thru a cable hole in the back of the box. So they punched a hole in the wall....aka.. hack work..

    What they should have done was purchased a plastic blank cover with center knockout hole. Installed a non metalic romex cable clamp in that knockout then made up the splices in wirenuts then installed the cover.

    There are better ways but that is how they should have handled the situation you are showing in your picture.



    As mentioned by HG ...not allowable as you are showing us.

    The romex is allowable and that box is allowable (if covered correctly). You cannot have those exposed splices or the hole in the wall with romex coming out.

    Not the way I would run a branch circuit to a dishwasher .. there are better quality methods.
    R.F.,

    First underlined, maybe, maybe NOT, it depends. Since "code" question elicited, as well, have you verfied location, and local code adoptions (and possible local ammendments)?

    Second underlined, maybe, maybe NOT, it depends we don't know the wiring path, or if there is an acceptable means to disconnect in sight of and/or lockout intermediate to the supply.

    Circumstances affording such a photo during a home inspection hopefully rare (electrical appliance connector still in place, but appliance itself not in-place). If the appliance has been removed - SAFE decomissioning should have taken place - not just capping off or cutting off potentially live wires.

    I see a deteriorated or damaged wall surface just above the shoe mold and below the box, and what may be discolored, darkened section of shoe mold and flooring., suspect appliance pulled investigating a leak or other service issue (replacing?), and this defective electrical "work" has been discovered mid-project, since HIs don't generally remove fixed in place appliances.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    HG

    You make all good points and one photo is probably not a good one to go by as to what is there.

    The photo says under cabinets, not necessarily 'in a cabinet' so this may be a cord and plug issue not a hard wire application as shown in photo..

    My reply was to a fixed in place dishwasher but now I do not think that is the case, considering your comments. Sometimes I get my cart ahead of my horse...

    BTW ... Did you see the 3 drywall screws thru the wall of the box fastening it to the wall base plate...

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 09-03-2010 at 05:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    HG

    You make all good points and one photo is probably not a good one to go by as to what is there.

    The photo says under cabinets, not necessarily 'in a cabinet' so this may be a cord and plug issue not a hard wire application as shown in photo..

    My reply was to a fixed in place dishwasher but now I do not think that is the case, considering your comments. Sometimes I get my cart ahead of my horse...

    BTW ... Did you see the 3 drywall screws thru the wall of the box fastening it to the wall base plate...
    I believe I made references and observations regarding the improper attachment and securement of the box in a paragraph devoted to some of the "issues" of the pictured box installation, about the middle of my initial post on this topic thread.


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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    BTW ... Did you see the 3 drywall screws thru the wall of the box fastening it to the wall base plate...

    Not only that, but for a horse of a different color ... did you see the pencil marks on the paint where they marked the hole to cut for the box?

    Meaning that box was added after the fact, and most likely from someone who did not know what they were doing.

    Okay, so, if that box was added after the fact, and then the NM-B cable run out to the dishwasher, I get the feeling that the dishwasher was relocated for whatever reasons, or, the NM-B cable was too short and they extended it (but not the correct way), or possibly even both.

    If you look at the inside of the NM-B where it curves into the hole in the wall you will see the outer sheathing has been sliced, as though a NM cable stripping tool was used (or a knife of some type) and stripped back WAY TOO MUCH, and that the cable inside the wall likely has exposed conductors with the sheath stripped off and cut back.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I believe I made references and observations regarding the improper attachment and securement of the box in a paragraph devoted to some of the "issues" of the pictured box installation, about the middle of my initial post on this topic thread.
    Yes you did, just read where you said improperly secured or placed. I think I need to sloooow down and read more throughly.


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Meaning that box was added after the fact, and most likely from someone who did not know what they were doing
    .

    Yep would have to agree with that ... only I think they knew what they were doing ... if you know what I mean....


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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck
    Not only that, but for a horse of a different color ... did you see the pencil marks on the paint where they marked the hole to cut for the box?

    Meaning that box was added after the fact, and most likely from someone who did not know what they were doing...
    Yes, yes, Jerry, I saw that. Thought I made clear mention of that very "horse" in my first response to the original post, middle paragraphm devoted to the possibly slightly off topic, box observations, here:

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    ...You also have exposed wiring in the pictured box adjacent - no proper cover, the box does not appear properly secured or placed, the wall finish gap is unacceptable large at the top and left, and the box appears to have been installed by an unskilled and unqualified person, suspect abutted against the floor plate likely not firestopped penetration from below..,
    I thought I was using clear concise language, guess not, huh?


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Wonder what they made the hole in wall covering with for the romex?

    Sorta reminds me of my father in law who was an old railroad'er. He would just take a ball peen and knock a hole in the wall, slide a piece of furniture in front of his handy work when he was finished and sleep like a baby.


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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Hey Roger,
    I think your father in law was at my house when the dishwasher was installed


  16. #16

    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Let's disregard the box, and assume all we have here is the cable penetrating the drywall, and running to a dishwasher. Will one of you please provide me with an NEC reference stating that this is a disallowed installation?


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    looks to me like the original wire was too short and was spliced into a "pop-in" box...then they stubbed a longer piece of romex through the drywall to hook up the dishwasher. Seems like/looks like/maybe this photo was taken "before" the appliance was installed, but after the wood flooring was run either into the dishwasher hole or was run under the cabinet work (before the cabinet guys installed the cabinets)?

    picture is worth a thousand words and the above is just a few...

    is it code to do this? well, depends on where you are. down here in the deep south, we have a juristictional ruling that says that counties and cities are responsible for their own "Code Enforcement" [if they have any at all!!] cause we have NO state mandated code rule... always, always be careful jumping in and calling out "Code" unless your certain you can defend your lilly white booty...cause most of the time we're not performing a code inspection. Unless of course, u r performing a code inspection..and if you're performing a code inspection I sure as hell don't want you doing a code inspection on my home cause you ought to already know the answer to the code question you posted...

    Last edited by Gary Smith; 09-04-2010 at 07:11 AM.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    My personal opinion is HG's inquiry into who this person is and his recent membership was intended to make sure we are responding to a HI or somepone related to a profession with home/building inspection. Since the op (Tom Last) has not returned to even say 'boo' to this forum ... I would suggest we end the thread as it is just pointless to continue.

    Let's disregard the box, and assume all we have here is the cable penetrating the drywall, and running to a dishwasher. Will one of you please provide me with an NEC reference stating that this is a disallowed installation?
    Depends, if you talking about the above picture posted by the OP... this would appear to be a resourceful connection to either a fixed in place type dishwasher or a portable one. If it is portable then no you cannot have the romex popping out of a hammer made hole in the wall covering and then hard wired to the dishwasher .It should be cord and plug with a flexible 'listed' dishwasher power cord. NEC 422.16 A.
    Unless more information is supplied by the long lost poster that originated this thread I don't see how we can speculate beyond what we see.
    However if the dishwasher was fixed in place and installed in a cabinet then yes you could run romex from the wall or up thru the floor to the dishwasher wiring compartment in my jurisdiction. IMO the romex is considered exposed by defintion. As it must be accessible during removal of the dishwasher for replacement or repair. The fact that you must remove an access panel on the dishwaher to disconnect the hardwired romex IMO makes the romex 'exposed work' as a wiring method. In which case you would need to verifiy that the sub-sections of 334.15 would or would not apply.


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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Yes, yes, Jerry, I saw that. Thought I made clear mention of that very "horse" in my first response to the original post, middle paragraphm devoted to the possibly slightly off topic, box observations, here:

    I thought I was using clear concise language, guess not, huh?
    H. G.,

    If you go back and re-read my post you will see that I quoted Roger and was replying to him.

    I thought I was using clear and concise language, guess not, huh?

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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Can you have nm-b (romex) exposed under a fixed 'in cabinet' dishwasher then ran to the wiring compartment of the dishwasher (usually in the front area). Yes you can.
    I was intentionally avoiding addressing this, but being as it has been brought up again ...

    The answer would be no, NM cable should not be used for that use.

    An approved cord and plug into a proper receptacle, yes.

    Flexible metal conduit from the box to the dishwasher electrical box, yes, but then you lose your disconnect at the dishwasher location.

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  21. #21

    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Thanks for the reply Roger.........

    The answer would be no, NM cable should not be used for that use.
    Besides the other half a$$ed work there, running Romex through a wall or the floor directly to a fixed in place dishwasher is the go to method here.


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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon Whitmore View Post
    Thanks for the reply Roger.........



    Besides the other half a$$ed work there, running Romex through a wall or the floor directly to a fixed in place dishwasher is the go to method here.
    Agreed. I believe the instruction manual for my new Whirlpool DW specifies that as one possible method. (But I have not checked that yet to verify, will do ASAP. )

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  23. #23
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    I agree with Jerrys wiring methods for the dishwasher and one of his two methods would be my preference. My jurisdiction does allow the wiring method to be romex to cabinet dishwasher, though to use a phrase I often refer to .....it looks "cheesy"....

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 09-04-2010 at 03:11 PM. Reason: added word 'cabinet' to clarify type of dishwasher

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    IMO...there is no problem with running romex out a hole in the drywall as long as the romex is secured within 12" of the box and no more that 4 1/2' to the connection to the dishwasher.
    ********

    Typical dishwasher installation instructions:

    Electrical Requirements
    Contact a qualified electrician.
    Assure that the electrical installation is adequate and in
    conformance with all national and local codes and
    ordinances.
    You must have:
    120-volt, 60 Hz, AC-only, 15 or 20 amp., fused electrical
    supply.
    Copper wire only.
    We recommend:
    A time-delay fuse or circuit breaker.
    A separate circuit.
    If direct wiring dishwasher:
    Use flexible, armored or non-metallic sheathed, copper
    wire with grounding wire that meets the wiring
    requirements for your home and local codes and
    ordinances.
    Use strain relief method provided with house wiring
    junction box or install a U.L.-listed/CSA-certified clamp
    connector to the house wiring junction box. If using
    conduit, use a U.L.-listed/CSA-certified conduit connector.



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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    IMO...there is no problem with running romex out a hole in the drywall as long as the romex is secured within 12" of the box and no more that 4 1/2' to the connection to the dishwasher.

    "as long as the romex is secured within 12" of the box"

    And when is the last time you've seen that? Or, should I be asking "have you ever seen that"?

    I have NEVER seen anyone who used NM cable run to a dishwasher who supported and secured it *anywhere* between the wall and the dishwasher box.

    To make matters even worse, as Roger said, that would be "exposed work" for NM cable, and in "exposed work" the NM cable is required to:
    - 334.15 Exposed Work.
    - - In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in 334.15(A) through (C).
    - - - (A) To Follow Surface. Cable shall closely follow the surface of the building finish or of running boards.

    So, with NM cable not only is it *not* supported and secured within 12" of the box, also does *not* "closely follow the surface of" the wall, the floor, the side of the cabinet, etc.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    I can't argue code rules with you, Jerry, but am posting this for general info. This manufacturer (Whirlpool) makes no mention of using flexible conduit. If the hole for the NMD is through wood, they want us to sand the edges. No mention of a hole in drywall either, but the wiring method is clear, NMD direct to the dishwasher.

    I will add that any HI that calls NMD to the DW a defect is creating problems for himself in Canada.

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    Last edited by John Kogel; 09-04-2010 at 08:40 PM. Reason: Can't speak for the US
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    John,

    I noticed you only posted Option B, not Option A.

    Regarding the HI who writes that up as just making problems for themselves: Those problems go away as soon as the code is pulled out showing where Option B is not allowed (at least here in the USA under the NEC, maybe it is allowed by the Canadian Electrical Code?).

    What is Option A? Using an approved appliance cord?

    If the law says you cannot kill someone, but the manufacturer of the gun says you can, calling out someone killing someone with a gun will cause problems for the person calling it out ... how?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Yes, Option A is an appliance cord through a 1 1/2" hole to an outlet in the adjacent cabinet. Option A is rare indeed, and only done by homeowners, not by tradesmen, IMO.

    Option B is used widely in Canada, so I apologize if I've jumped to the wrong conclusion, re: the US. Once the dishwasher is installed, there is no exposed wiring, no loaded gun.

    But I must admit we rarely are able to see the actual wiring method as it is all concealed by the dishwasher anyway. I've seen plenty of roughed-in wiring before the appliances are in, in Canada, and it is always a length of NMD folded up in the back of the cabinet. Sometimes there's a J-box, but it is common to see just a hole in the wall. The cable is stapled to a stud before coming out through the hole.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
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  29. #29
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    I have retrieved a file where I copied the UL standard for household dishwashers as it pertains to cord and plug conversion..

    Unfortunately I can't find any of my files talking about wiiring methods for permanently connected ' in cabinet ' units.

    Anyway here's that section of the UL standards ... the bold is mine FWIW



    UL.com
    The following is from the UL web page:

    DMIY.GuideInfo
    Dishwashers, Household



    [Cleaning Machines] Dishwashers, Household
    422.16(B)(2)

    USE AND INSTALLATION

    This category covers household dishwashers intended to be installed in accordance with ANSI/NFPA 70, "National
    Electrical Code."

    Household dishwashing machines may be of the cord-and-plug-connected or permanently connected type.

    An undercounter unit may not have a complete enclosure; the unit should be installed beside kitchen cabinets ,

    and an enclosure should be provided at installation. Such units are so marked.

    Some cord-connected units are suitable for field conversion to permanently connected installation; conversion instructions are provided with the conversion parts kit .

    Some permanently connected type dishwashers may be converted to cord connection by means of a cord kit that is available from the manufacturer of the dishwasher. .

    UL Standard UL-749
    UL 749
    Household Dishwashers

    7.3 Installation instructions

    7.3.1A Where the installation instructions for a built-in dishwasher specifies
    that the appliance is able to be connected by means of a power-supply cord
    not already attached to the appliance by the manufacturer, the instructions
    shall specify that a power-supply cord kit marked for use with dishwashers
    shall be used. The cord kit shall comply wi th Clause 25.2A. The part or model
    number of the power-supply cord kit shall be included in the appliance
    installation instructions.
    7.3.2 The installation instructions provided with a cord-connected undercounter appliance shall include
    the following instructions or equivalent information:
    a) the power-supply receptacle for the appliance shall be installed in a cabinet or on a wall
    adjacent to the undercounter space in which the appliance is to be installed;
    b) there shall be an opening through the partition between the compartments specified in (a) that
    is large enough for the attachment plug to pass through. The longest dimension of the opening
    shall not be more than 38 mm;
    c) the edges of the opening specified in (b) shall, if the partition is wood, be smooth and rounded,
    or, if the partition is metal, be covered with an edge protector provided for this purpose b y the
    manufacturer; and
    d) care shall be exercised, when the appliance is installed or removed, to reduce the likelihood of
    damage to the power-supply cord.

    25.2 Cord-connected appliances
    25.2.1 The power-supply cord of an appliance provided with a means for grounding shall include an
    equipment-bonding conductor and shall terminate in a grounding-type attachment plug.

    25.2.4 For a cord-connected built-in appliance:
    a) the flexible cord shall be Type S, SJT, SPT-3, or the equivalent; and
    b) the length of the flexible cord shall be 0.9 – 1.2 m, measured from the face of the
    attachment plug to the plane of the rear of the appliance.

    25.2.5 The power-supply cord shall be attached permanently to the
    appliance or shall be in the form of a separate cord supplied as part of a
    power-supply cord kit with means for connection to the appliance. The
    power-supply cord kit shall comply with Clause 25.2A.
    25.2.6 The ampacity of the cord and the current rating of the fittings shall not be less than the current
    rating of the appliance.
    For an appliance rated more than 15 A, the current rating of the attachment plug shall not be less than
    125% of the current rating of the appliance.
    A 20 A plug shall be acceptable for an appliance rated not more than 4000 W at 240 V. The attachment
    plug shall be acceptable for use at a voltage equal to the rated voltage of the appliance.
    .

    25.2A Power-supply cord kits for use with undercounter or built-in
    dishwashers
    25.2A.1 A power-supply cord kit intended for the installation of an
    undercounter or built-in dishwasher shall include the following:
    a) power-supp ly cord, strain-relief means, and push-back relief that complies
    with Clause 25.2;
    b) a part or model number marked on the power-supply cord kit package, or
    in the kit installation instructions;
    c) installation instructions; and
    d) grounding instructions in accordance with Clause 7.2.2.4(a). _______


  30. #30
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Well I've just about exhausted all avenues to find specifications for the wiring means to a permanently installed dishwasher. Most of the manufacturers say something like " route house wiring cable either thru the floor, wall or from adjacent cabinet to the dishwasher wiring compartment, using a strain relief clamp in the appropriate knockout.

    In my jurisdiction for as many years as I can remember our inspectors allowed romex (NM) directly to the wiring compartment of the cabinet dishwasher as long as you kept the routing away from the motor or any moving parts..

    When I look at the NEC .. fastening is required 'close to the box' for just about any permanent wiring means. Yet to my knowledge they never required it. Probably because of the lack of practicality when servicing the unit. I'm guessing here but I suppose the sub-floor was allowed to be the support.

    Anyway IMO it is hard to find documentation NEC or other wise why NM is or was allowed. The manufacturers seem to 'dance' around that subject and cover themselves with "should be installed by a qualified electrician in accordance with applicable codes" ....

    Now the UL sorta just says install to manufacturers instructions. The terms route house supply cable to dishwasher wiring compartment came up pretty often in my search. So go figure what that means when you have to consider the wiring method, fastening and supporting etc...

    I did find this in a Ray Mullin book ..need to navigate down to the dishwasher and waste disosal part on the table of contents. Look at "direct connections" page 417 seems to suggest NM cable is allowed but.....

    Electrical Wiring Residential: Based ... - Google Books

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 09-04-2010 at 10:42 PM.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    If I ever start something like this again someone please slap the morning dew off me.....

    I found this in ECM magazine FAQ bold is mine.

    Q. I am confused (that's me) regarding allowable wiring methods to residential dishwashers and waste disposers. Art. 422 says "shall be permitted," when referring to a cord and male cord cap configuration. Does this wording imply an option? What other wiring methods would then be permitted? Is hard wiring permitted direct via Type NM cable, or Type MC, etc.?
    A. Any Chapter 3 wiring method is allowable, provided it is otherwise suitable for the location and you meet the relevant support and other installation requirements, as per the applicable article. Then, you can also use flexible cord under the constraints in Sec. 422-16(b).


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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    If I ever start something like this again someone please slap the morning dew off me.....
    This is why I love this board.... it's the only place I know of where 10 grown men can spend hours arguing about the color of poop.


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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Chapter 3Art. 300, Art. 334, Art. 314.Non metallic sheathed CABLE is not FLEXIBLE CORD.Protection from damage/nailing plates for NM is required in article 334. You may not have NM project forth from the wall surface as pictured in the OP's photo. It is unprotected as it changes its path from concealed to unconcealed wiring method as it nears the surface of that wall finish - is unsecured by staple or clamp, has no strain relief, has nothing to maintain bending radius limits, is unsupported, and these conditions remain while it (the NM) sits beyond the wall finish - further subject to damage especially while appliance (should it be portable wherein completely incorrect wiring method - should be receptacle to receive proper cord and plug; or a fixed-in-place installation - while being placed in position-or when moved for servicing).When emerging through bottom plate of wall or floor should be through metal conduit or other protective (from nail/screw penetrations, etc.) means.NM bending radius - the photographed is not protected from having been crimped, folded, pinched. The cable assembly may not be bent or folded to the extreme (thus damaging). 334.24; when thermoplastic insulation is pinched, compressed, etc. heat develops, many electricians are aware of the consequences of having done so, for example too-tight staples, etc. Almost every residential fire investigator is aware this as well. Note in picture, just as the cable is projecting from the wall "hole" on the left side-the bright mark on the cable sheath - this cable has been overly bent/pinched/damaged.NM through or parallel to framing members 300.4 & 334.17Concealed wiring, securing & supporting covered in both 300 and 334.Outlet boxes 314.Strain reliefProtection from Damage (this includes from compression, bending, sharp edges of the diswasher frame, projecting self-tapping case screws, etc. during installation & removal activities, abrasion, etc. DW's vibrate, have motors, etc.NM is NOT CORD, it is NOT designed to be bent, moved, flexed repeatedly, and despite its inproper use (with a field installed CORD cap) by many and that having been overlooked by many an AHJ, was and is not an approved use.The use of NM in the manner photographed is not in keeping with the standards for the NM itself or its (the cable's) LISTING. As described and photographed in the OP, it is not a proper Chapter 3 wiring method.


  34. #34
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    As described and photographed in the OP, it is not a proper Chapter 3 wiring method.
    In this case I would certainly agree. However if it was a properly installed NM cable it seems that it would be code compliant for a fixed in place cabinet dishwasher. I am assuming the inspectors consider the fact that it is not exposed to damage or humans under a cabinet dishwasher. However it also seems you must meet installation requirements for the permanent wiring means in accordance with the NEC chapter and sub section. Your not going to get a hammer under a dishwasher to drive a staple or a staple gun, no screw gun either.

    About the only means would be a wire tie to the frame somewhere close to the wiring compartment.

    I do agree it seems you can find more to disallow NM cable than allow it in the code articles, none the less it is common practice in many jurisdictions if done correctly and passing inspection.

    In my home which was built in 1995 (I didn't wire it) they had NM-b from the service equipment up thru a hole in the floor at the wall then it laid on the sub-floor under the dishwasher for about 2 1/2 feet to the dishwasher wiring compartment where it is terminated to the appliance wiring. When I replaced the dishwasher about 5 years ago I terminated the NM in a metal junction box at the wall then ran a piece of MC to the new dishwasher. I'd go look to see if I fastened it close to the box but it's like looking behind the fridge ... there is always something I dont want to see....


  35. #35
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    R.F.

    I get what you're saying.

    Point making was that despite "commonly" seeing installers and electricians fashoning a connection from an appliance with a length of NM and attaching a plug cap to it, and it not getting "tagged" for years, decades, or even to this day in some jurisdictions, doesn't make the practice compliant or legal, then or even now.

    AHJs like police are under no requirement to find and cite every violation, or to intervene. They do have the authority and power to enforce what they chose to.

    Point further making, is doesn't matter what is usually or always "been done", or despite what gets overlooked or is commonplace in a particular area; what is wrong is wrong. NM is not cord, and not meant to be used as such, it is a fixed in place wiring equipment. Jerry Peck often repeats a version of an oft used phrase on the subject, I just can't recall the wording of it at the moment.

    Protection from damage not only during the cable's installation but while in place. Vibration/abrasion from equipment, penetrations can take place from OTHER activities in other areas of the wall, the floor/ceiling cavity below, activities related to systems contined within the wall cavity, penetrations via the adjacent cabinetry, movement/setting appliance in-place (against frame, etc.) removals for servicing/replacing, etc.

    My final words/thoughts on the subjects of your last post, damage and activites under/behind the dishwashing appliance fixed in place near breach in wall, or even under or behind the refrigerator....unwanted occupants and vistors...i.e. rodents. Under and behind both appliances oft frequented and use as cache locations by same creatures. Common activity of those creatures is in passive gnawing (their teeth never stop growing) - seem especially prone to gnaw on the sheath and insulation of NM. Rarely does the front prevent these creatures from freely traveling from under and out into areas to collect food, travel to liquid sources for drink, or explore. One of the prime (including under or behind ranges, and refrigerators) where evidence of "occupancy" even transient and past, of such "visitors" is often found. Not knowing what may be behind or under the zone photographed - hole in wall, path of travel, and area - another "protection" aspect to be made aware of. Electrical code is not the only code to speak on the subject of a dishwasher installation, of wall closure, kitchen area, plumbing, etc. "codes" and what is incorporated therein, such as ANSI standards, UL standards, mfg instructions, etc.


  36. #36
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Yes, Option A is an appliance cord through a 1 1/2" hole to an outlet in the adjacent cabinet. Option A is rare indeed, and only done by homeowners, not by tradesmen, IMO.
    Actually, Option A is done by the better tradespersons, Option B was done (hopefully) not by a tradespersons.

    Once the dishwasher is installed, there is no exposed wiring, no loaded gun.
    To the contrary, when the kick plate is removed ... there is that NM cable, and it is "exposed" (see Roger's post).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  37. #37
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Protection from damage not only during the cable's installation but while in place. Vibration/abrasion from equipment, penetrations can take place from OTHER activities in other areas of the wall, the floor/ceiling cavity below, activities related to systems contined within the wall cavity, penetrations via the adjacent cabinetry, movement/setting appliance in-place (against frame, etc.) removals for servicing/replacing, etc.

    My final words/thoughts on the subjects of your last post, damage and activites under/behind the dishwashing appliance fixed in place near breach in wall, or even under or behind the refrigerator....unwanted occupants and vistors...i.e. rodents. Under and behind both appliances oft frequented and use as cache locations by same creatures. Common activity of those creatures is in passive gnawing (their teeth never stop growing) - seem especially prone to gnaw on the sheath and insulation of NM. etc.
    I do not see how installing an appliance cord is going to save anyone from the possibility of rodent damage to the cord.

    An appliance cord would also be susceptible to damage from vibration against the motor or chassis although, granted, it is more flexible.

    Jerry, you are right, if the front cover is removed, the wiring is exposed, and the same is true for any fixture, receptacle or light switch.

    What is the worst thing that can happen? A wire could snap from vibration, or a rodent could get zapped. A hot wire could contact the chassis. That is why we have circuit breakers. But what if the grounding wire had previously snapped off from vibration?

    Luckily, where I live, I do not have to worry about these things, because the use of NMD for direct connection to dishwashers is accepted practice. For this reason, I must bow out and let others carry on. []

    Last edited by John Kogel; 09-05-2010 at 04:14 PM. Reason: further to above and below
    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    I do not see how installing an appliance cord is going to save anyone from the possibility of rodent damage to the cord.
    If wiring systems were geared to address rodents ... only metal raceway systems would be allowed, rigid, thin wall, or flexible - metal would be the key.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  39. #39
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    I don't care about an appliance cord.
    NM cable is not an appliance cord. The pictured NM cable illegally emerging from an unprotected unclosed wall cavity is not an appliance cord, it is part of the premisis wiring system to an electrical OUTLET.I care about pathways and unclosed, unblocked cavities. Penetrations of floor plates, subfloor, open cavities in walls. I care about smoke, fire, air passing through, spreading, growing, before they should be. I care if a short, arc, heat develops in the premisis wiring system. If an appliance cord has damage that's a horse of a different color - IT can be INSPECTED, viewed, and replaced without the opening of walls, breaching of cavities, fireblocking and firestopping, by an appliance repairman, by a DIYer, not requiring an electrical inspection, or re-working of the premisis wiring system.An appliance cord may not penetrate walls only a grommeted maximum hole in an adjacent cabinet cavity. An appliance cord can be visualized and inspected, is designed to be flexed, bent. You'll also notice appliance cords have a different type sheath which is less prone to be chewed/gnawed upon. IF appliance cord is found to be damaged, it CAN BE UNPLUGGED from its receptacle providing power - without exposing the UNTRAINED user to the hazardous area under/behind the access panel for the dishwasher (capacitors, etc.) which can retain storaed current, OR require the homeowner to work, modify, or open a circuit, or otherwise "deal" with the premisis wiring system, and no electrician is required.Unpluging a cord & plug residential device doesn't require special knowledge or training to perform safely. When that appliance cord is unplugged the "hot(s)", "neutral" and "ground" paths are OPENED, the appliance is no longer electrically continuous with the premisis wiring system.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-05-2010 at 06:29 PM.

  40. #40
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    The pictured NM cable illegally emerging from an unprotected unclosed wall cavity is not an appliance cord, it is part of the premisis wiring system to an electrical OUTLET.

    As a minor correction ... that NM cable goes to an electrical junction box - which is no longer (was it ever?) being used as an "outlet".

    If you were referring to the unconnected end of that NM cable, you would be correct, that would be the electrical "outlet" where the dishwasher connects to the electrical wiring system.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  41. #41
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    IF appliance cord is found to be damaged, it CAN BE UNPLUGGED from its receptacle providing power - without exposing the UNTRAINED user to the hazardous area under/behind the access panel for the dishwasher
    You will want to tape this sign to the breaker panel - Option A Go back to the kitchen, kneel below the sink, remove trash can, soap containers, bags of recycling, food containers, compost bucket, etc. Locate dish washer plug, ensure hands are dry, grasp base of plug firmly and pull straight out.
    Option B - Flip Dishwasher breaker here.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    As a minor correction ... that NM cable goes to an electrical junction box - which is no longer (was it ever?) being used as an "outlet".

    If you were referring to the unconnected end of that NM cable, you would be correct, that would be the electrical "outlet" where the dishwasher connects to the electrical wiring system.

    I was referring to the unknown, unviewed end of the protruding NM cable, which was reported by the OP as having been the dishwasher connection or "outlet".

    We do not know if the NM was still electrically connected to said DW, was not indicated, nor was the end photographed.

    We do not know if the DW was a portable appliance improperly "hard wired" but still mobile, or portable device (not permanently attached to plumbing potable and DWV systems, or if it was fashioned or listed as a to be installed as a fixed in place appliance, or if it was a formerly mobile, but coverted to be a fixed in place device (often the case when less than 24" openings are available).

    I doubt we will hear again from the OP to confirm or deny any details not having been disclosed previously as to what the situation was outside of his orgiinal description and photograph posted.

    Seems replacement of the keyboard and pad was not sufficient to correct problems showing up after "accident". Guess its time to start shopping for new equipment, since repair on ancient device is not cost effective...Sigh


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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    You will want to tape this sign to the breaker panel - Option A Go back to the kitchen, kneel below the sink, remove trash can, soap containers, bags of recycling, food containers, compost bucket, etc. Locate dish washer plug, ensure hands are dry, grasp base of plug firmly and pull straight out.
    Option B - Flip Dishwasher breaker here.

    Actually, it is more like this:
    "Go back to the kitchen, kneel below the sink, remove trash can, soap containers, bags of recycling, food containers, compost bucket, etc.", remove the dishwasher drain line,
    - Option A, reach in and unplug the cord, remove the kick plate to the dishwasher, remove the water supply to the dishwasher, remove dishwasher.
    - Option B, get back up, go out to the garage or down to the basement, flip the breaker off, get back down under the dishwasher, remove the dishwasher electrical box box, disconnect the wires - SPARK! - curse and swear some, get back up and go back to the garage or basement, and try to figure out which breaker is REALLY for the dishwasher as it was not that one ... ... remove the water supply to the dishwasher, remove the dishwasher (you would want to remove the supply last as you will NOT want your hand in any wet area when disconnecting the electrical at the dishwasher electrical box - just in case ).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    If you were referring to the unconnected end of that NM cable, you would be correct, that would be the electrical "outlet" where the dishwasher connects to the electrical wiring system.
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I was referring to the unknown, unviewed end of the protruding NM cable, which was reported by the OP as having been the dishwasher connection or "outlet".
    That was what I thought and why I included the last part of the quote above, but, the wording you used caused me to think the other way, so I was just clarifying it.

    We do not know if the DW was a portable appliance improperly "hard wired" but still mobile, or portable device
    Correct, I believe we were "presuming" that the dishwasher was not a portable one as it was wired with NM cable, but (and 'of course') that presumption may have been wrong and that would lead to NM cable simply not being allowed for that use regardless of any and all other conditions.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  45. #45
    John Steinke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Maybe I'm a bit thick sometimes, but ....

    The practice of simple 'whips' of wire extending through the wall and being directly connected to appliances seems to be universal enough I have to ask for some more details to support the opinions that 'it's not allowed.' Let's look at some facts ...

    First, where do we see this practice? I often find it with 'built in' ovens, dishwashers, garbage disposals, and under-cabinet lighting. If a 'whip' is not acceptable, what do you say is acceptable? A junction box with another whip attached to the cover?

    I'd like to see some substantiation if it is your position is that "metal flex" or MC is OK, while Romex is not.

    As for the use of a cord & plug, well, you've just opened another can of worms. I seems that for some appliances that's OK, while others are NOT evaluated for that option when UL looks at them. To determine if the cord is OK, you'd really need to dig into the specifics of each specific appliance - and all bets are off if that appliance is ever replaced. (Over at Holt this was brought out in a discussion of dishwasher and cords).

    Can't bring Romex through a wall penetration? That's a surprise, considering the prevalence of UL-listed 'receptacles' for ranges, where the only possible way to attach the cable is through an exposed end of the surface-mounted device. How else will the cable get there?

    I'm not happy with the choices available, but I'm hard pressed to find any code violation; perhaps you guys can enlighten me. Otherwise, it looks to be more of a 'design issue' than a 'defect.'


  46. #46
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    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    Quote Originally Posted by John Steinke View Post
    Maybe I'm a bit thick sometimes, but ....

    The practice of simple 'whips' of wire extending through the wall and being directly connected to appliances seems to be universal enough I have to ask for some more details to support the opinions that 'it's not allowed.' Let's look at some facts ...

    First, where do we see this practice? I often find it with 'built in' ovens, dishwashers, garbage disposals, and under-cabinet lighting. If a 'whip' is not acceptable, what do you say is acceptable? A junction box with another whip attached to the cover?

    I'd like to see some substantiation if it is your position is that "metal flex" or MC is OK, while Romex is not.

    As for the use of a cord & plug, well, you've just opened another can of worms. I seems that for some appliances that's OK, while others are NOT evaluated for that option when UL looks at them. To determine if the cord is OK, you'd really need to dig into the specifics of each specific appliance - and all bets are off if that appliance is ever replaced. (Over at Holt this was brought out in a discussion of dishwasher and cords).

    Can't bring Romex through a wall penetration? That's a surprise, considering the prevalence of UL-listed 'receptacles' for ranges, where the only possible way to attach the cable is through an exposed end of the surface-mounted device. How else will the cable get there?

    I'm not happy with the choices available, but I'm hard pressed to find any code violation; perhaps you guys can enlighten me. Otherwise, it looks to be more of a 'design issue' than a 'defect.'
    Well sir, I notice you refer to NM Cable as "wire". It is a listed cable assembly with an entire article devoted to its use. It is also Listed.

    Chapters 1, 2, 3, 4 of the NEC apply. Notice you ignore the qualifer statements, i.e. "protected...", etc. And the change of wiring methods from "concealed" to not "concealed". You also ignore not only the better part of the instant post discussion, but the citations and references made within and further discussed by others.

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Chapter 3Art. 300, Art. 334, Art. 314.Non metallic sheathed CABLE is not FLEXIBLE CORD.Protection from damage/nailing plates for NM is required in article 334. You may not have NM project forth from the wall surface as pictured in the OP's photo. It is unprotected as it changes its path from concealed to unconcealed wiring method as it nears the surface of that wall finish - is unsecured by staple or clamp, has no strain relief, has nothing to maintain bending radius limits, is unsupported, and these conditions remain while it (the NM) sits beyond the wall finish - further subject to damage especially while appliance (should it be portable wherein completely incorrect wiring method - should be receptacle to receive proper cord and plug; or a fixed-in-place installation - while being placed in position-or when moved for servicing).When emerging through bottom plate of wall or floor should be through metal conduit or other protective (from nail/screw penetrations, etc.) means.NM bending radius - the photographed is not protected from having been crimped, folded, pinched. The cable assembly may not be bent or folded to the extreme (thus damaging). 334.24; when thermoplastic insulation is pinched, compressed, etc. heat develops, many electricians are aware of the consequences of having done so, for example too-tight staples, etc. Almost every residential fire investigator is aware this as well. Note in picture, just as the cable is projecting from the wall "hole" on the left side-the bright mark on the cable sheath - this cable has been overly bent/pinched/damaged.NM through or parallel to framing members 300.4 & 334.17Concealed wiring, securing & supporting covered in both 300 and 334.Outlet boxes 314.Strain reliefProtection from Damage (this includes from compression, bending, sharp edges of the diswasher frame, projecting self-tapping case screws, etc. during installation & removal activities, abrasion, etc. DW's vibrate, have motors, etc.NM is NOT CORD, it is NOT designed to be bent, moved, flexed repeatedly, and despite its inproper use (with a field installed CORD cap) by many and that having been overlooked by many an AHJ, was and is not an approved use.The use of NM in the manner photographed is not in keeping with the standards for the NM itself or its (the cable's) LISTING. As described and photographed in the OP, it is not a proper Chapter 3 wiring method.
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I don't care about an appliance cord.
    NM cable is not an appliance cord. The pictured NM cable illegally emerging from an unprotected unclosed wall cavity is not an appliance cord, it is part of the premisis wiring system to an electrical OUTLET.I care about pathways and unclosed, unblocked cavities. Penetrations of floor plates, subfloor, open cavities in walls. I care about smoke, fire, air passing through, spreading, growing, before they should be. I care if a short, arc, heat develops in the premisis wiring system. If an appliance cord has damage that's a horse of a different color - IT can be INSPECTED, viewed, and replaced without the opening of walls, breaching of cavities, fireblocking and firestopping, by an appliance repairman, by a DIYer, not requiring an electrical inspection, or re-working of the premisis wiring system.An appliance cord may not penetrate walls only a grommeted maximum hole in an adjacent cabinet cavity. An appliance cord can be visualized and inspected, is designed to be flexed, bent. You'll also notice appliance cords have a different type sheath which is less prone to be chewed/gnawed upon. IF appliance cord is found to be damaged, it CAN BE UNPLUGGED from its receptacle providing power - without exposing the UNTRAINED user to the hazardous area under/behind the access panel for the dishwasher (capacitors, etc.) which can retain storaed current, OR require the homeowner to work, modify, or open a circuit, or otherwise "deal" with the premisis wiring system, and no electrician is required.Unpluging a cord & plug residential device doesn't require special knowledge or training to perform safely. When that appliance cord is unplugged the "hot(s)", "neutral" and "ground" paths are OPENED, the appliance is no longer electrically continuous with the premisis wiring system.
    Regarding your "facts" and having seen it "done" so much...I can say this:

    Quoting Thomas Payne, "Common Sense":

    "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right."

    That superficial appearance is not proof or evidentiary as to a thing being a fact, or that it is right.

    And the idea that "If you repeat things often enough, they become true" is FALSE.

    Off topic (cats), and just for you J.S.: Remember, "do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and may pee on your computer."





  47. #47
    John Steinke's Avatar
    John Steinke Guest

    Default Re: Romex though wall for dishwasher

    I know not the source of the phobia regarding cats and computers; after all, nothing knows it's wy around a mouse better than a cat!


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