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  1. #1
    Jon mackay's Avatar
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    Default Garage panel wiring

    I was not sure what to make of this jumper wire. What purpose would it serve?

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  2. #2
    Craig Mulder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Garage panel wiring

    The wire is feeding the other bus in the panel. So both buses are energized.


  3. #3
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    Post Re: Garage panel wiring

    In other words, there is ONE 120 volt branch circuit serving the garage sub-panel, and it energizes both bus bars. So it will not be possible to get 240 volts out of this panel.

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  4. #4
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    Default Re: Garage panel wiring

    Of course, it's double-lugged too.

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  5. #5
    Jon mackay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Garage panel wiring

    Would that get called out as improper panel wiring?
    All branch circuits are currently 110 v but I wasn't sure if that matters.

    I have never seen this type of install.


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Garage panel wiring

    Curiousity here...

    Would it be correct to assume the garage is not a conditioned space? Insulated?

    Would it be correct to assume the garage is NOT attached to the structure with the service? If not - how far is it?

    Would it be further correct to assume there is some sort of exterior to the garage lighting which can be controlled both at the garage and at the residence? (i.e. 3-way switch)?

    GFCI?

    What are the circuits here supplying? What is on the supply side of the feeder?

    Why can't we see the whole "panel", "cabinet" or "box", looks small enough, what are the identifying markings and ratings?

    There is an interesting label there on the inside left wall of this "box" bet it has all kinds of interesting, useful, information that will lead to the answers to your question (looks like a diagram and lots of words--oooh lookie). Did you look at it? get a readable photograph of it? How about the other identifying information present? Care to share it?

    The jumper is a "field installed modification". permited listed use, likely not but don't have the information to say definitavely. Usually one sees a manufacture-supplied BAR and its not done by double terminals in a lug not listed for other than one. Have no idea what the use and/or limitations of the equipment is - not enough information, picture snipped.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-11-2010 at 02:59 PM.

  7. #7
    Jon mackay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Garage panel wiring

    The garage is detached, conditioned and insulated at one time and is now being used as unconditioned due to the lack of an operable furnace.
    There are several gfci wall outlets, approximately 4 lights, 2 garage door openers, and exterior lights that are controlled from the garage.

    The garage is in need of its own grounding system rod and after reading into the panel, the jumper wire should be removed.


  8. #8
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    Default Re: Garage panel wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon mackay View Post
    The garage is detached, conditioned and insulated at one time and is now being used as unconditioned due to the lack of an operable furnace.
    There are several gfci wall outlets, approximately 4 lights, 2 garage door openers, and exterior lights that are controlled from the garage.

    The garage is in need of its own grounding system rod and after reading into the panel, the jumper wire should be removed.
    No, I think you should be careful what you draw from the above comments.

    The garage panel appears to be grounded by the bare copper wire from the house. An electrician can determine if it is adequately grounded.

    The cable may be buried or overhead, but needs to be the correct type for whichever, and protection needs to be provided where the cable exits the house and enters the garage.

    If it was needed, the jumper could be terminated in its own lug, or spliced with a pigtail, or the buses could be joined with a strap supplied by the manufacturer. We can't tell from the label whether this is permitted by the manufacturer.

    The jumper could simply be removed and the two 15 amp breakers on the left bus could easily supply the lighting and outlets you described with 120 volts. An electrician can straighten this whole thing out pronto, and that is the recommendation that would go in your report.

    Also, get used to calling it 120 or 240 volts.

    Last edited by John Kogel; 09-12-2010 at 09:28 AM. Reason: added comments
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Garage panel wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon mackay View Post
    The garage is detached, conditioned and insulated at one time and is now being used as unconditioned due to the lack of an operable furnace.

    There are several gfci wall outlets, approximately 4 lights, 2 garage door openers, and exterior lights that are controlled from the garage.

    The garage is in need of its own grounding system rod and after reading into the panel, the jumper wire should be removed.
    Suspected that was the case (detached), and that an old exception for 3-way switch leg lighting circuit for detached structure's light or old exception for singluar branch circuit with no return path to main structure was bootleged/converted into a power circuit/feed for multiple circuits to provide, and is undersized for what is now attached (and prior furnace), and incorrect materials (NM), either way, not good. Garage likely was not electrified (convenience receptacles or openers) or lit (internally) originally, or had a singluar 120V circuit with ecg for lights and receptacle with no other possible metallic return paths. Wonder if there is a "man door" or just "garage doors" NYS other area of the codes will apply when modifying or other than decomissioning prior unpermitted "upgrades".

    Amazing what information you can find on a label isn't it?

    Local permit search (doubt any of this work, at least modfying initial singluar circuit under old rules, was permitted, i.e. installation of garage door openers, circuits, this box, former furnace, etc.), NYS electrical code, permit, and qualified party, to either decommission and remove or completely re-do correctly, including proper calculationsm for safety.

    Grounding and Bonding for detached structures is covered in NEC article 250, Feeders in 225 Don't know where service point is. Significant changes and clarifications with/since the 2005 ed. NEC, which IIRC have been mostly incorporated by NYS.

    From what has been shared, and little seen plus an assumption or two, looks like entire set-up needs to be either decomissioned/removed or nearly completely reworked, for safety issues. No sign of grounding system for separate structure and this is more than a simple remote light circuit.

    Probably need a new feeder too calculations made to determine size - likely best would be fed via GFCI combo OCPD 120/240VAC. NM-B is dry location only, Never for feeder for detached structure (even in water-tight conduit outdoors/burried its still a damp/wet location in the conduit even condensation). Distance, voltage drop issue likely also running 120.

    Two Openers - which are by their nature and function fixed-in place (despite cord & plug connection to electrical system) with hp ratings likely exceeding the shared circuit rules for the 15 A feeder supply subject to significant voltage drop (esp. at 120V) anyway. Lights are figured demand/continuous use. You have not only the interior lights but exterior, likely desired and/or required some of which to be controlled or overridden via the main structure location too which would bring multiple metallic return path issues, from detached structure, etc.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-12-2010 at 09:24 AM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Garage panel wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Curiousity here...

    Would it be correct to assume the garage is not a conditioned space? Insulated?

    Would it be correct to assume the garage is NOT attached to the structure with the service? If not - how far is it?

    Would it be further correct to assume there is some sort of exterior to the garage lighting which can be controlled both at the garage and at the residence? (i.e. 3-way switch)?

    GFCI?

    What are the circuits here supplying? What is on the supply side of the feeder?

    Why can't we see the whole "panel", "cabinet" or "box", looks small enough, what are the identifying markings and ratings?

    There is an interesting label there on the inside left wall of this "box" bet it has all kinds of interesting, useful, information that will lead to the answers to your question (looks like a diagram and lots of words--oooh lookie). Did you look at it? get a readable photograph of it? How about the other identifying information present? Care to share it?

    The jumper is a "field installed modification". permited listed use, likely not but don't have the information to say definitavely. Usually one sees a manufacture-supplied BAR and its not done by double terminals in a lug not listed for other than one. Have no idea what the use and/or limitations of the equipment is - not enough information, picture snipped.
    Wow. Thats all I can say.

    Paul Kondzich
    Ft. Myers, FL.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Garage panel wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Kondzich View Post
    Wow. Thats all I can say.
    Then why say anything? What's your point?!?


  12. #12
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    Default Re: Garage panel wiring

    Just wondered if you were this condescending to everyone you come in contact with, or do you save all that attitude just for this board?

    Paul Kondzich
    Ft. Myers, FL.

  13. #13
    Joe Driscoll's Avatar
    Joe Driscoll Guest

    Default Re: Garage panel wiring

    Feeder is clearly 12-2 UF, and once upon a time this was a legal setup, question reverts to when it was installed, could have never been a 3 way switch setup unless additional feed was there, too few conductors


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Garage panel wiring

    What was pictured, and further pictured and diagrammed on yet another thread, was NEVER a legal set-up.

    Proof was in the pudding when the UNCROPPED version of the photo was posted in a pdf file on the other thread he started on this same branch circuit. Further taps to outlets within the home were diagrammed and documented in photos on the other thread. You should see those Joe D, and consider retracting what you have stated.

    The other thread is here: http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...el-feeder.html

    What was ONCE POSSIBLY a single branch circuit exception has been bastardized into what was NEVER legal.

    The use of the box as pictured, with three circuit breakers is also not now and never was legal to have more than two devices as remote structure disconnect.

    The pdf file with photos (be sure to blow em up to 600-800 percent so you can SEE the whole garage "panel" and pay attention to ALL that you see in that "garage" photo! is here: http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...layout1-1-.pdf

    Don't forget to also look at the first photo in that second string and read what was said by Jon MacKay in that thread.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-13-2010 at 04:00 PM.

  15. #15
    Joe Driscoll's Avatar
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    Default Re: Garage panel wiring

    If someone could provide a link to the aforementioned thread, I would consider a retraction, but as shown in this thread nothing puts up any red flags


  16. #16
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    Default Re: Garage panel wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Driscoll View Post
    If someone could provide a link to the aforementioned thread, I would consider a retraction, but as shown in this thread nothing puts up any red flags
    Link to the thread and link to the pdf file containing diagram and uncropped photos are found in the post immediately prior to your request for LINKS.

    The links are imbedded and clickable (they appear underlined).

    If you hover your mouse pointer over them, you should be able to view their full address destination.

    You also could click on the Original poster name and bring up a list of his prior posts. The aforementioned other link is titled "panel feeder" and can likewise be found in the electrical area. It was begun by the same OP of this thread.


  17. #17
    Zibby Bujno's Avatar
    Zibby Bujno Guest

    Default Re: Garage panel wiring

    As long you do not draw more than 30 Amps total (hopefully the other end of feed wire is protected by 30 Amp breaker


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Garage panel wiring

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon mackay View Post
    I was not sure what to make of this jumper wire. What purpose would it serve?
    The purpose of that jumper wire is to energize the other bus bar.

    That panel is being fed with a 120 volt circuit and only half of the panel would have power if not jumped to the other bus - keeping in mind that there will not be any 240 volt at that panel - and keeping in mind that the jumper creates a multiple tap at that terminal.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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