Thread: Panel feeder

When feeding a panel from the main service equipment, is it acceptable to splice into it to feed other circuits?

This picture shows a splice to change wiring to exterior rated wire that feeds a detached garage panel and then 2 additional circuits spliced.

I have noted that the 2 lower circuit wires are undersized and there is a missing strain relief as well as JB cover.

Similar Threads:

• Electrical Feeder Cable
• Mobile Home Feeder
• Another mobile home feeder
• Feed From Main Panel to Sub Panel
• any suggestions for this exposed feeder

Originally Posted by Jon mackay

When feeding a panel from the main service equipment, is it acceptable to splice into it to feed other circuits?

This picture shows a splice to change wiring to exterior rated wire that feeds a detached garage panel and then 2 additional circuits spliced.

I have noted that the 2 lower circuit wires are undersized and there is a missing strain relief as well as JB cover.

My understanding is that standard Romex wire is not approved to be exposed to excessive moisture condition of sub-structures.

Best

Ron

Originally Posted by Ron Bibler

My understanding is that standard Romex wire is not approved to be exposed to excessive moisture condition of sub-structures.

The question is, are you allowed to utilize the panel feeder for other circuits?

I have never seen this setup before. Typically i will see the circuit feeding the panel will have a dedicated feed from the main service equipment.

Originally Posted by Jon mackay

The question is, are you allowed to utilize the panel feeder for other circuits?

I have never seen this setup before. Typically i will see the circuit feeding the panel will have a dedicated feed from the main service equipment.

What do those tap conductors supply?

John feeder taps can be allowed but there are very strict rules to follow. Some questions that would have to be answered are in the guidelines listed below.



Feeder Tap Rules
10-Foot Feeder Tap Rule [240.21(B)(1)]
Feeder tap conductors can be run not over 10 ft without overcurrent protection at the point they receive their supply, but they must be installed in accordance with the following requirements:
(1) The ampacity of the tap conductor is:
1 Not less than the computed load in accordance with Article 220, and
2 Not less than the rating of the device supplied by the tap conductors or the overcurrent protective device at the termination of the tap conductors.
(2) The tap conductors do not extend beyond the equipment they supply.
(3) The tap conductors are installed in a raceway if they leave the enclosure.
(4) The tap conductors have an ampacity of no less than 10 percent of the ampacity of the overcurrent protection device from which the conductors are tapped.
25-Foot Feeder Tap Rule [240.21(B)(2)
Feeder tap conductors can be run not over 25 ft without overcurrent protection at the point they receive their supply, but they must be installed in accordance with the following requirements:
(1) The ampacity of the tap conductors is not less than 1/3 the ampacity of the overcurrent protection device protecting the feeder.
(2) The tap conductors terminate in a single circuit breaker, or set of fuses having a rating no greater than the conductor ampacity as listed in Table 310.16.
(3) The tap conductors are suitably protected from physical damage or are enclosed in a raceway.

Outside Feeder Tap of Unlimited Length Rule [240.21(B)(5)
Outside feeder tap conductors can be of unlimited length without overcurrent protection at the point they receive their supply, but they must be installed in accordance with the following requirements:
(1) The tap conductors shall be suitably protected from physical damage.
(2) The tap conductors shall terminate at a single circuit breaker or a single set of fuses that limit the load to the ampacity of the conductors. This single overcurrent device shall be permitted to supply any number of additional overcurrent devices on its load side.
(3) The overcurrent device for the tap conductors is an integral part of a disconnecting means or shall be located immediately adjacent thereto.
(4) The disconnect is located at a readily accessible location either outside the building or structure, or nearest the point of entry of the service conductors.

Originally Posted by Jon mackay

The question is, are you allowed to utilize the panel feeder for other circuits?

The breaker in the main panel needs to protect the smallest wire size there, so if that smaller cable is 14/2 and the breaker is larger than 15 amps, that arrangement is wrong.

I see Roger is ahead of me.

Is this the same property and circuit as your "garage panel wiring" thread (clickable link): http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...el-wiring.html

If it is, why are we discussing on yet another topic thread? In your referral of the not safe bootleg "panel" with too many disconnects, not service rated, why not mention the taps upstream as well, and refer the whole mess to electrician to be either safely decomissioned or permit re-design and correction to safe means?

From what I gather from your description, the service equipment is in the main house - and a single branch circuit from that service equipment goes to a detached garage. From what I further gather the photo you posted on this thread is in the house - is that correct?



It appears that you are describing TAPS from a branch circuit. These are not different circuits.

It is unclear what the taps are supplying, or where electricity is being worked (outlets) and the path. The circuit to the detached structure should be dedicated to that detached structure and not tapped off to wiring within primary structure.

Apparently all these conductors are protected by the same OCPD at the service equipment. The tapped paths have no secondary OCPD, apparently, except for what makes it to another structure at the detached garage, apparently there is secondary OCPD, presuming this is done correctly (if same as thread referenced above, is not, and your proposed fix at other thread would not remediate correctly). It appears to be different condutor size or insulation size on some of the wiring. Is this all also correct?

It is frustrating to have to illicit details, or piece together a situation from multiple topic posts of the same general nature (electrical). Is this also the same property with unsecured wiring at window and across the walking surface of attic floor?

P.S. well we see how slow a typer I am as neither RF's nor JK's posts were there when I started typing over 7 minutes ago!

Strain relief? Do you mean cable clamp? not all are listed for more than one Cable. There should be at least six inches of conductor length in the box for ease of work, that's a workmanship issue and also sign of hack work. BTW kraft insulation paper should not be exposed, and insulation appears to be installed backwards.

Roger,

Why quote outside feeder tap rule - obviously this tap point is not outside???

I do not believe this is actually a technical feeder, if it is the same garage and "panel" on the other topic string.

P.S. well we see how slow a typer I am as neither RF's nor JK's posts were there when I started typing over 7 minutes ago!

That's because you always have more to say.... ... so it takes you longer.

Strain relief? Do you mean cable clamp? not all are listed for more than one Cable. There should be at least six inches of conductor length in the box for ease of work, that's a workmanship issue and also sign of hack work. BTW kraft insulation paper should not be exposed, and insulation appears to be installed backwards.

I figured this was the same supply to the detached garage of the other thread. I considered it a feeder since it landed on a panelboard in the detached garage that has overcurrent protection for branch circuits..

None- the- less it is an opportunity for John to learn about taps on feeders as he has not seen this before. Not the best example but it should be adequate to assist him in determining if it is a feeder tap or branch circuit tap.

Jon mackay,

You might have mentioned WHICH STRUCTURE you photographed this box from! I assume the house, from basement or crawlspace near sill plate, but it could be a poured wall of embanked detached garage above parking area, for all we know.

I also note unsecured cable not attached within distance from box, no protection of cable sheath or wiring for two cables entering from below, pinched cable (gray) with rusting staple or nail,

and very importantly - a floating, unattached ground to the left center of the box (apparently previously attempted to be secured under a ground screw) I see no connection/bonding of EGCs.

I noticed one comment claiming that the breaker had to be sized to the smallest wire. That's not quite correct.

First off, it's the wire we size, not the breaker. Secondly, the 'tap rules' cited can be used in this situation, but IMO application of them is outside the scope of the HI and the situation can be evaluated only by a licensed electrical contractor, master electrician (if those exist in your area), or, maybe, a PE.

As a general matter, there is no reason that a feeder cannot supply any number of panels or loads - but there are plenty of factors that need to be considered. In practical terms, in a household setting, it would be quite unusual for this to happen; it's a good suspicion that something is wrong.

You'll just have to keep digging.

Roger,

Gotcha. Assume we're on the same page then regarding that bootleg "panel" not being proper with its three disconnects, etc. for a "feeder" in detached structure.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Roger,

Why quote outside feeder tap rule - obviously this tap point is not outside???

I do not believe this is actually a technical feeder, if it is the same garage and "panel" on the other topic string.

HG

I was just posting the tap rules for Johns reference to this thread . The unlimited outside feeder tap rule is not relevant to this thread but thought he may not even be aware of feeder tap rules in general. Good time for him to learn IMO.

You may very well be correct that it is really a branch circuit tap but as it stands I think it would be considered a 120 volt feeder.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Roger,

Gotcha. Assume we're on the same page then regarding that bootleg "panel" not being proper with its three disconnects, etc. for a "feeder" in detached structure.

Yes we are ... just want to use this thread for John to understand feeder taps vs branch circuit taps.

BTW you beat me typing this time....

Originally Posted by Roger Frazee

HG

I was just posting the tap rules for Johns reference to this thread . The unlimited outside feeder tap rule is not relevant to this thread but thought he may not even be aware of feeder tap rules in general. Good time for him to learn IMO.

You may very well be correct that it is really a branch circuit tap but as it stands I think it would be considered a 120 volt feeder.

I disagree. I don't find it to be a proper branch circuit to detached structure, OR a proper feeder to detached structure, either proposed "status" are defective/deficient/unsafe.

Remediation/correction or decomissioning needs to be done by a qualified party. The failure to connect egcs in this box, one of which terminates under the grounding screw on the box, the others not having been connected/bonded and as indicated by orignal post on this string box furthermore found without cover, At a minimum, warning and/or hazard level, but IMO takes this to a danger level considering this is exposed wiring method, further to detached structure.



With draping cable, some of which is unsecured outside of the box, no excuse to not have proper working lengths of conductors at properly located and selected/size & type, junction. Exposed conductors from improperly installed "wire nut" on neturals, etc.

OK, Time for a diagram. Attached is the layout.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

Is this the same property and circuit as your "garage panel wiring"

Yes, I apologize. I was asking a specific question with that post and then another with the new post. I didn't realize that they are preferred to be kept together.

Hopefully the diagram will explain the situation and get me a specific answer.

I know that there are issues that are wrong and must be addressed but if I were to run into this same scenario where all the wires were properly sized, the question would still be:

Are you allowed to utilize a sub panel feeder circuit for other branch circuits?

Originally Posted by John Steinke

I noticed one comment claiming that the breaker had to be sized to the smallest wire. That's not quite correct.

First off, it's the wire we size, not the breaker.

That may be true for an electrician doing an install.
I just looked at it from the other side, from an oversimplified HI-in-training point of view. The point being, the large breaker makes the small wire vulnerable to overheating - wrong.

Originally Posted by Jon mackay

Yes, I apologize. I was asking a specific question with that post and then another with the new post. I didn't realize that they are preferred to be kept together.

Hopefully the diagram will explain the situation and get me a specific answer.

I know that there are issues that are wrong and must be addressed but if I were to run into this same scenario where all the wires were properly sized, the question would still be:

Are you allowed to utilize a sub panel feeder circuit for other branch circuits?

HUH?

You are going to have to be specific with your question and use correct terms if you want a specific answer!

Roger has already posted some feeder tap rules. Do you know what a raceway is? What defines a branch circuit? He and I have alluded to branch circuit taps (note circuit is singular!).

There are additional "rules" which must be followed for feeders and branch circuits which supply DETACHED structures. It matters if the supply point, path, and/or termination is indoors, outdoors, etc.

I disagree. I don't find it to be a proper branch circuit to detached structure, OR a proper feeder to detached structure, either proposed "status" are defective/deficient/unsafe.

I agree with this comment. I also agree that the installation is all messed up not just the tapping nm cables. All the errors mentioned in this installation for power to the detached garage need to be a written concern for further correction by a qualified electrician.

For the installation to be a branch circuit to the detached garage it would land on a disconnect/switch and proper protection at the service equipment not more than 20 amps. The uf-b cable shown appears to be 10 awg if I'm not mistaken, if it is protected by a 30 amp breaker then that is going to have to change to be a branch circuit supplying receptacles and lights in that detached garage.

For the installation to be a feeder it needs a panel with breaker(s) in the garage and proper protection for the feeder based on the calculated load and then proper wire size.
The shown panel in the garage is wired in violation of its listing IMO .. though some would argue if he spliced in a wire nut he could power both busses of that panel with the same hot leg.

So I would certainly agree that the installation is improper for either branch circuit or feeder as I see it.

My intent was to answer Johns question about a feeder tap as ' I think ' from the previous posts he understands the installation is full of errors. I understood him to simply want to know if it was a feeder could it be tapped as he has shown in his picture.

I do agree though that in order for a tap to be permitted the feeder needs to be legit. I was answering considering the installation was a proper feeder and should have clarified my answer to that consideration.

Geeze why did you crop up the photo from the garage on the original garage panel thread in the first place? What was the point of hiding the dangerous wiring condition there? Are we playing games here?

Post a photo of the panel, identify for us the 20 amp breaker you're talking about, we'll help you determine if possible to be seen, if it (this 20 amp circuit supply) has a shared neutral ("upstream") (MWBC).

If you pulled or locked out and tagged that circuit at the "main panel", notified occupant and owner if not same party, and AHJ of the immediate danger, and to get that immediate danger remediated by a qualified party immediately, or got the occupant to get an electrician over there to safely decommission/disconnect that circuit or work to make minimally safe for that exposed DANGEROUS condition/hazard in the garage, then you were right to do so.

If you didn't, at minimum make them aware of the danger, or if you deemed it just worthy of a warning or recommendation and did NOT tag out the breaker(s) at that panel, please explain what standards or procedures you do follow when you come across a safety issue that presents an immediate danger to persons (injury or death) should they make contact with live wiring going NOWHERE, and especially in a remote structure garage with no bonded grounding path?Why hide the live wiring nipped off in the garage with the originally cropped photograph of the bootleg panel???Yes it needed to be shut down at the main panel, and yes especially because of the incomplete and improperly executed wiring shown at that box in the basement, and yes because there were improper taps to the receptacle and to an unknown location.

When you have the information and photos and ask a question because you want input and others to inform you - don't WITHHOLD. Just like that recent armstrong thread - the details and additional photos shouldn't have to be extracted from you like otherwise healthy, impacted wisdom teeth.

Hi Jon

HG certainly has a good point about not giving all the information. Very difficult for answers to be correct without a total understanding of what you have there.

Lesson learned is to post everything you can of the wiring in question and good photos that are clear and not fuzzy.

Bottom line is .. HG pretty much sized this installation up to what it is ... not proper and not safe and not code compliant.. The tap cables shown are not going to get it and are after the fact.

If the feeder was legit those tap cables still are not allowed. Compare what you have to the feeder tap rules to see if they are correctly installed taps assuming correct compliant feeder. The taps must meet all of the requiements.

Dang my string of correct guessing on wire size just ended with this thread...

That setup is a CF and an accident waiting to happen. If I was called to evaluate and repair...I would set a six circuit panel in the place of the junction box and fuse the wires properly. The purpose of the tap rule is not so a wire can be over fused.

I don't have a full blown adobe product or photoshop type so I can't grab just the uncropped photo of the WHOLE garage picture only out of that adobe document, blow it up 600-800 percent and make it a jpg or bmp.

If you look at it paying special attention to the cable which is cut off on the upper right but still wired in the bootleg panel THAT is one of the emergent DANGER points that necessates the disabling and removal BACK at the SERVICE PANEL in the house - all the intermediate crap in between is what makes that DANGER more emergent danger to persons and property - injury or death, shock or fire. Those open, unconnected EGCs in the open metallic box you pictured in the basement yet another, the improperly grounded improper tap to metallic boxed outlet installed in DAMP unfinished basement on DAMP block wall with numerous alternate and main highly resistant path to ground are yet other DANGER and WARNING level hazards. The whole thing needs to be electrically disconnected at its source (Neutral, hot egc and bonding) and the panel closed. If that cannot be accomplished then open the main disconnect.

DANGER & HAZARDOUS: means something WILL go wrong and CAUSE SEVERE DAMAGE, DEATH OR INJURY. Emenent DANGER something or someone contacting those live unterminated conductors in the garage. Not a question of IF, its only a question of WHEN. All that crap that leads to that cut cable makes it that much more DANGEROUS.

WARNING: means something likely will go wrong and cause significant damage or serious injury

CAUTION: something may go wrong and cause some damage or injury.

NOTICE: something informative

These NOTIFICATION /ACTION/SIGNAL words and the use of them are covered in ANSI Z535,

Bob Harper has posted several times recently on the most recent standard and signal/notification language. I'll quote two snippets from this post below http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...tml#post124245 : Which he sub-titled: "What constitutes a Danger and what to Do"

...I qualified my post by referencing the ANSI Standard for alert words: caution, warning, and danger. Danger is used when there is an immediate threat to life or fire. An example is a significant leak of combustible gas or CO into an underventilated space. An ambient CO reading of 10ppm as read would probably warrant the use of the word "warning" and recommend followup with the appropriate agency or qualified technician. Similarly, getting a *hit* with a combustible gas sniffer would not warrant evacuation. Getting a reading of 20% of the LEL would warrant evacuation, shutting off then Tag Out/ Lock Out of the offending appliance....

and

Originally Posted by Bob Harper

If you find a loose hot wire sticking out where it is reasonable to believe someone could touch it and die and you fail to kill the power, flag it and notify the occupants and parties involved, then someone touches it, you could be found guilty of gross negligence and go to jail.

Michael Thomas posted this link recently, I haven't checked it out yet, but it sounded promising.

http://www.appliedsafety.com/ansi_z535dot6_article.pdf

HTH.

HG, I believe the cable in question is not snipped off but rather takes too sharp of a bend and exits thru a drilled hole in the wall.

Also could the bare ground wires in the J-box actually be twisted together but not visible?

We know it is bad work and so does Jon. He is trying to learn the finer points by posting here.
Sometimes the pics don't turn out very good after a tough inspection. No call to beat the guy up for it.

J.K., No, not the case, blow it up; No, not the case, blow it up pay attention to the cable conductors he has indicated go to the garage. If you "don't get it", or wish to "believe" something else, that is obviously up to you, but those "beliefs" are not supportable based on the evidence clearly visable in the photos provided. Why you grasp at straws trying to defend the wiring to or in that junction box is beyond me, there is nothing defendable about the installation - it is condemable, dangerous and hazardous, to persons and property, end of story, period.

As for the rest of your diatribe, you mischaracterize what I said and contradict both what J.M. said and has been proven regarding availability or quality of photographs, as they have been produced. I made no comment regarding quality of ORIGINAL (uncropped, un-redacted) photographs, only the withholding of same and sprinkling and withholding of photos on the SAME topic, SAME system, and SAME property on multiple threads and redacting/cropping out what is important information visable IN the unredacted/cropped photo. Someone ELSE complained of "blurriness" not me. I commented on a consistant pattern throughout JM's participation here, it is up to HIM what, if anything, he choses to do about it. I am not the first, nor the only to have made that observation. Jon mackay can speak for himself.

Originally Posted by Jon mackay

OK, Time for a diagram. Attached is the layout.

Based on the diagram, and without the benefit of any dimensions, That does not look like the feeder tap rules would apply to it, making that a branch circuit tapped off the feeder which would require the same rating as the overcurrent protection for the branch circuit.

Its not a feeder, plain and simple, not now, not then, not ever.

Its a 120V circuit to detached structure with inappropriate outlets in the main structure without any intermediate OCPD or panel, and at the detached garage. There is no electrode, made or otherwise at the garage. There is no proper panel or disconnect at the garage. The branch circuit at the garage is overloaded with two garage door openers, four fixtures in the garage, multipe outdoor fixtures and multiple receptacles and has a cut off still wired condutor to a former furnace.

Jas. Duffin said it...a CF but this former detached structure single branch circuit exception never made it to "feeder" status, despite its numerous alterations. It is an illegal branch circuit with outlets at both the main structure and the detached structure - without proper continuity, and hazardous conditions. Now its just a hazard, Death, serious injury, or fire waiting to happen.

The gray wire looks like kink has been hot?? Potential hazard.

I am soooo sick of this crap fellas ((
I just had to reject a H.O. final for the second time yesterday. And yes, now I'm the baad guy!!
I know this could be another thread, but....
Just wondering.... U HI's get the blame for pointing out the absurd work/installation of others also??
Home owners don't seem to understand that they create more violations in their futile attempt to rectify their previous attempts to perform that which they know not how to perform in the first place.
Sorry, just venting.
Bob Smit, County Coroner....I mean County EI