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  1. #1
    Desmond Kelly's Avatar
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    Default GFCI Receptacles

    How many of you find counter receptacles near the Kitchen sink which are Non-GFCI and do you recommend that they be replaced with GFCI'S.

    Thanks
    Desmond Kelly

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: GFCI Receptacles

    All the time, and yes I recommend them to be GFCI protected.

    rick


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    Default Re: GFCI Receptacles

    Ditto.

    Pre 1980 homes were not required to have GFCI in the kitchen. Since then the number and placement has changed several times.

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

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    Default Re: GFCI Receptacles

    Quote Originally Posted by Desmond Kelly
    How many of you find counter receptacles near the Kitchen sink which are Non-GFCI and do you recommend that they be replaced with GFCI'S.
    It depends.

    Regular duplex receptacles can be line-side protected by GFCI receptacles placed elsewhere (off their load side), by a dead-front GFCI device placed elsewhere, or by Combination GFCI/Circut Breakers. Not all GFCI devices provide personnel protection GFCI limits.

    If you meant that the receptacle "outlets" themselves were not afforded GFCI protection, then yes "write that up".

    If you meant that they simply were not combination devices (receptacle/GFCI devices), not unless you confirmed that they were NOT otherwise afforded GFCI protection.

    Forgive my ignorance, but I do not recognize "NL" as a location abbreviation. I took a look at your profile history of posts and saw in one of your first you mentioned you were starting out and were in New Foundland, (spelling?) Canada.

    Am not familiar with the status of your local provincial electrical code or its history. I am old enough to recall there was a time that all of Canada was not the same electrical power standard - I don't recall if Newfoundland was one of those areas. However I am familiar with a practice which was common here decades ago, and IIRC was quite common and even in some areas dictated by some provincial electrical codes in Canada for a time at least, that being split duplex receptacles in the kitchen and two appliance circuits required, each side being powered by different circuits, OR each being powered by different half of a MWBC (Multi-wire branch circuit - or the "shared neutral" circuit). If the circuit supplying countertop receptacles is a multi-wire branch circuit you'd be looking to the panel for GFCI protection (then assuring it was correct Class for protection of persons not just equipment protection). If the yoke is split muliple circuits supplying - you'd look upstream or line side of the receptacle device for protection, even back to the panel. IIRC some versions of the "national electrical code" of canada (provinces make own adoptions and changes, etc.) either did or may still dictate six-foot rules near sinks including kitchen sinks. Point being that residential codes, electrical codes, and what is and is not considered as a safety issue or a defect in your area (assume Canada) or your region/province is not necessarily the same thing or level considered in the United States.

    Finally, not all combination GFCI/receptacles are equal, and the presence of the device in and of itself does not mean there would be "no writing". There have been significant changes in the standards for combination GFCI/receptacles and GFCI protective devices, as well as the rules for wiring receptacles, and the standards for receptacles. They also have (especially those older ones) a limited useful life, several have been recalled over the years. Older receptacles and GFCI receptacle devices may have had pressure "back stab" areas that accepted 20 awg wiring, a practice now prohibited for safety reasons, etc. How these combination devices have been incorporated into the wiring system and the rules that govern same have also changed over the years (examples: there was a time when it was not permitted to protect load side if not equipment ground, there was a time when it was standard practice to wire feed-through receptacles not pig-tail them so as to not break continuity with the circuit neutral when the device was removed, If installed on a wiring system that is devoid an equipment grounding conductor in the wiring path of the circuit - must be labeled "no equipment ground" on the face, etc.) The standards for devices and equipment in Canada is not the same, nor has it been the same, in the USA and Canada (although some of this is changing/harmonizing there are still significant differences in some things). So, there are times, that even seeing presence of combination GFCI/receptacle devices would not necessarily preclude a "writing".

    Hope that made sense, and hope it helps.

    P.S. Is NL for Newfoundland? (for some reason I thought it was NF). Netherlands?

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 09-13-2010 at 05:26 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: GFCI Receptacles

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    Pre 1980 homes were not required to have GFCI in the kitchen. Since then the number and placement has changed several times.
    Nonetheless, though (and, yes, I saw your "Ditto"), this should be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Hurst View Post
    All the time, and yes I recommend them to be GFCI protected.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #6
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    Default Re: GFCI Receptacles

    Quote Originally Posted by Desmond Kelly View Post
    How many of you find counter receptacles near the Kitchen sink which are Non-GFCI and do you recommend that they be replaced with GFCI'S.
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    It depends.

    One of the points H. G. was making, I believe, was that the receptacles need to have GFCI *protection*, but not necessarily be *GFCI devices* themselves.

    Here is a list of the NEC year editions and the locations for GFCI protection (versus "devices") for dwelling units:
    http://www.constructionlitigationcon..._page-2008.pdf

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  7. #7
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    Default Re: GFCI Receptacles

    Only required in British Columbia, Canada since about 2008, depending on which year code book is being followed. A built in 2008, started in 2007 condo last week had no GFCI protection at the outlet 3 feet from the sink. I questioned it but it was apparently not required by the AHJ in that district.

    No houses built before 2005 have GFCI's in the kitchen in British Columbia, Canada. Shocking, eh?

    Don't ask me what they do in Wabush, Newfoundland and Labrador (NL). I'm surprised they have Hydro. Just kidding.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  8. #8
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    Default Re: GFCI Receptacles

    Don't ask me what they do in Wabush, Newfoundland and Labrador (NL). I'm surprised they have Hydro. Just kidding.[/quote]

    They apparently have enough "hydro" from near that part of NL to power much of the new england states. Of course it's being sold there by Quebec Power but you don't want to start a conversation on the "Rock" about that one.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: GFCI Receptacles

    Thanks for all the replies. Let me give a bit of history of where I am located. Newfoundland and Labrador (NL) is a province on the East Coast of Canada. I live in a mining town called Wabush, there are 4 Iron Ore mines within a 40Km (20 Mile) Radius. The towns were constructed by the mining companies when production started, all buildings including the residential homes were company property and were sold to workers who came to town for employment. The homes are now 45-50 years old and require upgrading, most have had their oil furnaces removed and are now installing 200 amp services and electric heat. All new wiring is done by licenced contractors and follow the National Electrical code of Canada which require GFCI receptacles within 6 ft of the kitchen sink. The problem I find is that wiring done prior to 2008 do not have GFCI Receptacles nor GFCI Breakers in the panel, the receptacles are split and are sharing a common neutral and each has its own breaker, all wiring done after 2008 have GFCI receptacles. I started HI about a year ago and find that alot of receptacles are Non-GFCI and are not protected either at the receptacle or at the panel so I recommend that these receptacles be replaced with GFCI's. This happens in 90% of the homes that I inspect and I was wondering if you guys find similar situations. We also have an abundant supply of cheap hydro power which we purchase for 2 cents per Kwh so this is why electric heat is becoming more popular and people are changing from Oil heat to Electric heat. Temp here range from 80F(25C) in the summer to -40F (-40C) in the winter months, you can snowmobile for 6 months of the year Nov-April.

    Desmond Kelly


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