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  1. #1
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    Default Do the conductors look like their under one terminal?

    The outside conductors look like they're under one terminal, right? The electrician said it was fine, but I was referring to the wires "on top" of one another, not seperated under the terminal. BTW, anyone have the NEC for multi wired disconnects, for example double taps?

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Do the conductors look like their under one terminal?

    If the pic showed just a little bit more the the right it would help. I think what you are looking at is a tandem breaker. A tandem is actually two breakers in the same case. It would need two terminal screws. A common arrangement is for the top screw to actually block the lower screw. This would make it hard to see.


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    Default Re: Do the conductors look like their under one terminal?

    Thanks JP

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    Default Re: Do the conductors look like their under one terminal?

    Marc,

    That looks like a quad, which means 4 breakers, 4 terminals, and 4 conductors - except that your photos show 6 conductors going to the quad breaker ... not good.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    Default Re: Do the conductors look like their under one terminal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Marc,

    That looks like a quad, which means 4 breakers, 4 terminals, and 4 conductors - except that your photos show 6 conductors going to the quad breaker ... not good.
    Jerry, the two outside look like they will accommodate two conductors, but that's just from my vantage + i'm not familiar with this quad.
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    Default Re: Do the conductors look like their under one terminal?

    Now that I can see your pic again, and looking at the Square D site, I agree with Jerry. This looks like quad breaker.

    Square D used to have an older style of tandem where the terminals were stacked and the lower conductor needed to be terminated before the upper conductor. The trip handles were beside each other, not stacked like this breaker.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Do the conductors look like their under one terminal?

    Yes that's a quad Homeline Breaker (or a counterfiet one).

    There are four terminals, the outside terminals are double tapped this is improper. The double tapping solid conductors are also over stripped and bear nicks (the upper most crossed colored insulated ones, at least) from improper stripping, this is additionally incorrect and can cause heat and other issues in a service panel and circuit. The wiring specifications for HOM and HOMT breakers can be acquired from Schnieder. IIRC they are stripping 3/8". HOMT are only allowed in comb/service panels with CTL functionality. Service equipment Rules and listings fall under different Standard than "sub panels" - everything has to meet 10kVA (or higher if applicable) listings, standards, application and rules.

    It is further disconcerting that both a black and red insulated conductor are thus double tapped, note the layering for the reversal - and color-crossing; because it leads one to suspect a MWBC with a "built in" wiring error either now present or eventual (even if done to correct same elsewhere downstream...load side). The outside terminals may be for a single pole breaker on a singluar branch circuit, or they may be supporting a Multi-wire-branch circuit. One wonders if an improper identification/bundling/crossing over-wiring error has taken place for a MWBC on the outermost two terminals. The inside two terminals with the larger conductors are for a 2-pole circuit.

    If you rotate your original photo 90 degrees counter-clockwise it should be apparent to you.

    You indicated you are unfamiliar with quad/tandem breakers. Here is a sell sheet on them from the begining of the last decade from Schnieder's library, note the descriptions for the introductions for six of the quads. From the descriptions you will note some of the differences to look for...Hence Jim Port's request that the photo show more to the right as to its orientation (viewing the labeled switch handle).

    You can pull tech drawings/line drawings and more details off of schneider's site regarding proper terminations of Homeline type HOMT full size 1P/2P, tandem, and quad circuit breakers.

    HTH.

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-07-2010 at 02:27 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Do the conductors look like their under one terminal?

    Wow, well done H.G., I thank you for that. Hey do you know off ahnd the NEC standard which speaks to double taps or conductors per disconnect.
    -Thank you

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Do the conductors look like their under one terminal?

    The UL listing is what determines if multiple conductos can terminate on a breaker. Normally this information is on the breaker itself. It can pay to look at the breakers on the shelf to familiarize yourself with the current styles.


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    Default Re: Do the conductors look like their under one terminal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc M View Post
    Wow, well done H.G., I thank you for that. Hey do you know off ahnd the NEC standard which speaks to double taps or conductors per disconnect.
    -Thank you
    NEC, NFPA 70 The National Electrical Code, IS an ANSI standard.

    UL/ANSI Standards are what equipment is (tested) and Listed to.

    You want an NEC citation or two that speak to the "issue"? Sure.

    Try 110.3(B), which applies to ALL electrical installations complying to NFPA 70 (NEC), which reads thusly (it happens to be one of my favorite citations ):

    Quote Originally Posted by NEC, 2008 Ed.

    110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment.


    (B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
    You can also refer to the UL/ANSI Standard(s) to which those Homeline Breakers are Listed (which btw, also cite NFPA 70, The National Electrical Code), the UL "White Book", AND...of course...(drum roll....) the Manufacturer's (listed) Instructions, which include the "wiring specifications". You can also refer to the Standard(s) the Service Equipment Panel (Homeline variety) is listed to, and its (listed) instructions and labeling.

    You also have the Standard (NEC) default status of every terminal, set-screw type, and wire-binding screw type included, being limited to ONE conductor, unless otherwise "identified", as indicated in the last sentance of 110.14(A) (blue is my highlight):

    Quote Originally Posted by NEC, 2008 Ed.

    110.14 Electrical Connections.


    (A) Terminals. Connection of conductors to terminal parts shall ensure a thoroughly good connection without damaging the conductors and shall be made by means of pressure connectors (including set-screw type), solder lugs, or splices to flexible leads. Connection by means of wire-binding screws or studs and nuts that have upturned lugs or the equivalent shall be permitted for 10 AWG or smaller conductors.



    Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified.

    That should cover "it".

    HTH.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-07-2010 at 07:21 PM. Reason: darn formatting :(

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Do the conductors look like their under one terminal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    The UL listing is what determines if multiple conductos can terminate on a breaker. Normally this information is on the breaker itself. It can pay to look at the breakers on the shelf to familiarize yourself with the current styles.
    Will do JP, thanks.

    Thanks again H.G.

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  12. #12
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    Default Re: Do the conductors look like their under one terminal?

    It does not matter what kind of breaker this is. It is not manufactured to be double tapped. Call Square D and they will give you that information on this breaker. Square D does make some breakers that can be double tapped. The wires are to be the same size wire and rated for the breakers. I do not go by what the electrician says nor the code inspector. If the Manufacture says no, then it is NO. The two outer breakers are wrong. NO double tapping. Square D is more than happy to give you the information for thies breakers.
    Thank You
    Bruce Adams


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