Results 1 to 35 of 35
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Charlottesville, Va.
    Posts
    292

    Default Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    I need some help understanding and identifiying whether a particular thermally protected recessed lighting fixture is IC or non IC rated.

    As you can see in the pictures I couldn't see the business end of the fixtures very well. I pulled the bulb and trim ring and did not see any IC or non IC information nor any make or model numbers allowing me to google the fixture. They were not air seal fixtures if that helps.

    There was a sticker explaining the blinking light functionality though.

    For IC: improper lamp wattage or type.
    For NON IC: Insulation too close to fixture, or other condition causing overheating.

    I did leave them on for most of the inspection without any blinking though.

    Similar Threads:
    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    2018 ASHI InspectionWorld

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Are these "installed" in the floor?!?

    Not that it matters much, since they've been obviously field modified (and damaged) in this improper (not-so-creative) installation, and without a field evaluation and approval, the listing has been violated - so are unlisted equipment. Even if originally protected and rated (pre-installation destruction), they certainly are no longer.

    However, even if they had not been destructively and violatively modified; they were/are not installed correctly, violation of the manufacturer's instructions, the listing (if were listed), equipment standards, and the electrical and building codes.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-20-2010 at 07:57 AM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Charlottesville, Va.
    Posts
    292

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Are these "installed" in the floor?!?
    They are installed in the ceiling structure of the space they serve, which is also the floor structure and walking surface of an attic storage space accessible with a pull down ladder. So yes to your question...I think.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Charlottesville, Va.
    Posts
    292

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    I am not sure what you are seeing in the pictures that indicates they have been field modified? Can you elaborate. I'm guessing the metal conduit entry into the can which does look sorta home schooled , but it does have a connector of sorts and I assumed that to be factory, but I obviously could be wrong.


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Foster View Post
    They are installed in the ceiling structure of the space they serve, which is also the floor structure and walking surface of an attic storage space accessible with a pull down ladder. So yes to your question...I think.
    If I understand your response correctly, They are installed as ceiling fixtures in a floor-ceiling assembly; we are looking "up" in the photos, correct? If that is the case, the answer would be no...

    Still not installed correctly and have been modified, so as to violate any implied listing.

    Separation violated, blocking/stopping, support.

    Jepordizing structure, fire hazard, danger, hazard to persons and property.

    Proximity also to stair/ladder/scuttle positioning protection of componants within area from scuttle above and possibility of contact/burn if person made contact with hot face.

    Exposed kraft paper insulation behind cut-out and whip - fire hazard.

    Quite a bit wrong here. Also an easy opt-out/decline to write, cancellation, and easy opt-out/reject claims in event of loss for an underwriter; simply refunding any premiums.


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Chicago IL
    Posts
    1,984

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Typically, if the can is silver/aluminum colored it is IC, but I have seen some that weren't. Can was white, top was silver (I think that variation was short lived, haven't seen any for a while) The white cans are not IC. In pic 1 it looks like there is some type of covering or cellulose or something around the can, doesn't look like fiberglass batt. Not sure what the deal is.
    As far as 'field modified', HG is most likely referring to the hole drilled into the top of the can. They drilled a hole in the can and stuck the Bx in there and no there isn't a connector. Wrong on all counts. Overheating of the incoming wires is a potential problem with that set-up along with physical damage being next to the entry hole. Additionally, one must ask what happened to the factory box for electrical hook-up. That looks like a NC can, not a remod can. I'm going to guess that instead of cutting a square hole in the plywood to install the can properly, they cut away the factory box and brackets so they could slip it into the round hole.
    I would write it up as an incorrect, unsafe install and look for other DIY electrical work around the house.
    Did an HI on Monday, flipper did all new electrical, lots of stuff wrong but more importantly didn't comply with any of the recent Code req. It's as if the guy was doing the work 20 years ago and still wrong. That realtor was pissed. 3rd house for that client.

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Foster View Post
    I am not sure what you are seeing in the pictures that indicates they have been field modified? Can you elaborate. I'm guessing the metal conduit entry into the can which does look sorta home schooled , but it does have a connector of sorts and I assumed that to be factory, but I obviously could be wrong.
    The fixture/luminaire has been modified or damaged. It does not meet standards (installation requirements or in condition) or approved wiring methods. It (the fixture) has effectively been destroyed/delisted by that modification or damage. The premisis wiring system has also been jepordized, as has the safety of the structure. The fire code requirements of the IRC and energy code IECC have been violated.

    This modification or damage has also compromised any "inherrent protection" and/or "thermally protected" requirements or indications labeled, or listed, and originally designed. This recessed luminaire is improperly installed in the ceiling below to the adjacent unconditioned attic. The fixture housing sealing gasket (for AT - Air Tight) has been displaced and is outside of the housing.


    (Note to M.K.: That's the gasket; I was referring to the blue imprinted kraft paper facing/backing which can be seen up through the notch in the otherwise circular void of the plywood.)

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-20-2010 at 05:51 PM. Reason: Notated photo and added same to post for clarification to OP.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Charlottesville, Va.
    Posts
    292

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    The insulation is glass wool which has a funky color so it doesn't look like typical fiberglass.

    Pictures are taken while standing on the attic floor...looking down through the attic access towards the main living level.

    This is new construction all the electrical work was top shelf, even the neutrals and grounds were separated and single lugged in the main panel which is a rare find in my area.

    I blew up the detail of the conduit entry into the can. There is a connector there and it doesn't look like a site drilled hole to me....more a factory punch.

    I've heard and read the silver/white color IC indicator before but I don't trust it for a final call.

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Just to clarify, that pic is actually the top of the recessed housing and the housing sticks up through the floor slightly?


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Foster View Post
    The insulation is glass wool which has a funky color so it doesn't look like typical fiberglass.

    Pictures are taken while standing on the attic floor...looking down through the attic access towards the main living level.

    This is new construction all the electrical work was top shelf, even the neutrals and grounds were separated and single lugged in the main panel which is a rare find in my area.

    I blew up the detail of the conduit entry into the can. There is a connector there and it doesn't look like a site drilled hole to me....more a factory punch.

    I've heard and read the silver/white color IC indicator before but I don't trust it for a final call.
    Robert Foster,

    Okay, we're having a failure to communicate. I'll try again.

    Are you saying the PLYWOOD is the attic floor and the view through the floor opening is looking into the living area BELOW?

    The trim ring/FACE OF THE FIXTURE, is being shown, not "the can"? If that is what has been pierced, even IF this "can" has been retrofitted with a reduction kit to enclose a smaller socket/bulb. If this fixture had not been inappropriately modified and illegally wired in this manner, you would be able to remove that trim (along with the retrofit within) and see the area which likely still contains the additional irequired listing information, identifying the fixture.

    This is NOT a Listed FLOOR fixture. Any "listings" or approvals this "luminaire" may have once had, have been violated by the modifications made to the fixture which further compromise any thermal protection features or "inherrant protection" the original testing, listing, approvals the fixture may have once had.

    If you are communicating that the plywood pictured is the floor, and the opening to which this fixture is recessed is a floor, it is WRONG.

    The integrated wiring area of the fixture then is not pictured? It is in that area where the fixture is to be integrated with the premisis wiring system.

    Then that thin metal is not a wiring area. The thin metal here has been also stretched.

    Electrical wiring methods in an area proximity to the scuttle/hatch near a fixed stair, ladder require protection protection from damage. armored cable or flexible metallic conduit is not crush resistant from foot traffic or materials stored upon it.

    There is nothing top notch about this electrical installation.

    No matter what you cannot have a luminaire protruding the attic floor unguarded with unprotected wiring so close to the attic scuttle.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-20-2010 at 05:36 PM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Charlottesville, Va.
    Posts
    292

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    H.G.

    Yes, the plywood is the attic floor.

    Yes, you are correct I should of written. This is new construction all the electrical work except this light fixture was top shelf,

    I greatly appreciate your time and information. I obviously know very little about light fixtures and have some studying to do. Thanks for your help.

    Jim...Yes...your statement is correct.

    Markus...thank you to you also.


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    The connection shown here is commonly used to connect the junction box to the fixture socket housing. There is nothing wrong with this. They are factory installed. The 3/8" flex is used on just about every recessed housing. I do not see where it has been stretched or damaged.


    The "foam gasket" has been explained as a funky colored insulation. I have seen some insulation made from recycled denim scraps that could explain the color.

    I believe the problem here is that the fixture is too tall for the floor joist depth and sticks up thru the floor surface.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    The connection shown here is commonly used to connect the junction box to the fixture socket housing. There is nothing wrong with this. They are factory installed. The 3/8" flex is used on just about every recessed housing. I do not see where it has been stretched or damaged.


    The "foam gasket" has been explained as a funky colored insulation. I have seen some insulation made from recycled denim scraps that could explain the color.

    I believe the problem here is that the fixture is too tall for the floor joist depth and sticks up thru the floor surface.
    I disagree with everything you have said. It is not compliant to whip through the face trim of a luminaire/light fixture. Pictured is not a legal wiring method, and not through the face trim of a recessed or semi-recessed fixture. The listing has been violated.

    The "glass wool insulation" reference has nothing to do with the fixture's trim gasket displayed in the photo you captioned. The spun insulation referenced by the OP can be clearly seen in the larger photographs, most clearly seen beginning offset approximately 25 degrees from the notch in the plywood floor, clockwise, via the overly large rounded cut opening to the plywood flooring where the distance between the trim housing and the plywood floor is the greatest.


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Robert Foster,

    You may find having access to a "UL White Book" to be helpful.

    It is possible to download from UL, or if you contact them they (at least used to for code inspectors, and related occupations) might forward you a hard copy at no charge. There are also "mini" versions, such as the "wiring guide".

    Hope that helps.


  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    georgia
    Posts
    112

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    That is the top of the fixture as you can see from the attached photo of similar housings. From what is shown you cannot tell if the electricians installation of the fixture is correct the carpenter and insulation installers definitely made the installation incorrect

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I disagree with everything you have said. It is not compliant to whip through the face trim of a luminaire/light fixture. Pictured is not a legal wiring method, and not through the face trim of a recessed or semi-recessed fixture. The listing has been violated.
    Disagree all you want. You are looking at the top of the fixture, not the trim ring. I will reiterate that there is nothing wrong with the method used by the factory to connect the flex conduit to the socket housing.

    The bulb is facing downward and cannot be seen. RM has confirmed that this is the top of the fixture sticking up thru the floor surface.


  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    On The Mason-Dixon Line
    Posts
    577

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Jim Port is correct. you are looking at the top of the bulb housing.
    Look at the picture of those Halo fixtures Paul Hardy posted, you will see the exact same style of connecting the 3/8" flex to the bulb socket


  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Thank you Ken.


  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Okay, I fixed my notations, I'll AGREE it is the Housing we are looking at.
    I went back and clarified and corrected the notated photo.

    BUT

    I still disagree as to the status of the torn housing, or that being undamaged or as a LISTED recessed luminaire.

    The gasket IS exposed, and displaced. Further unlisted, damaged state.

    The luminaire is subject to damage - its integrated wiring and compartment. Its proximity to the scuttle (photographed) and unguarded protrusion through the floor of the ceiling assembly is violation and safety issue, a defect, and violates the listing.

    A fixture in this envelope - ceiling of a floor ceiling assembly adjacent to unconditioned attic must be AT (air tight). It would further be subject to dampness/condensation in how this has been installed.

    At present the recessed luminaire is not in full and direct contact with insulation, and the insulation envelope has been compromised. If the reason the "hole" in the "floor" was cut as large as it has been and notched so as to avoid contact (non-IT) to combustibles and the heat sink of the AC or FMC the fixture has moved (1/2" clearance".

    IF that AC or FMC is integral to the fixture - then there is a different problem, because the wiring connection between the fixture and the premisis wiring system IS NOT ACCESSIBLE (PLYWOOD).

    If that is AC or FMC premisis then there is no jake connector, cable clamp, etc. to the housing.

    The torn/popped housing, lack of a PINNED reinforcement from the "punch", a strain relief, jake, clamp, etc. in combination with the displaced sealing/insulation gasket and plywood floor notching at that same location leads me to damage or modification.


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    georgia
    Posts
    112

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    H.G by appearance that housing is an air tight housing most non air tight housings have visible holes and slots that allow the passage of air. Also some manufactures such as halo have a air tight trim that when installed makes the assembly air tight. The wiring compartment on most all recessed housings is made accessible from the trim side by removal of the housing such as when they are installed in a floor system with no attic above. Now when the plywood was installed furring should have been used to raise the plywood above the housing and the insulation paper should not be in contact with the housing.


  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    The connection shown here is commonly used to connect the junction box to the fixture socket housing. There is nothing wrong with this. They are factory installed. The 3/8" flex is used on just about every recessed housing. I do not see where it has been stretched or damaged.
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I disagree with everything you have said. It is not compliant to whip through the face trim of a luminaire/light fixture. Pictured is not a legal wiring method, and not through the face trim of a recessed or semi-recessed fixture. The listing has been violated.

    Jim is correct. There is nothing wrong with that as shown as the recessed housings come that way from the factory.

    H. G., I suspect that you are thinking you are looking "up" "into" the recessed housing in the photos, but the photos are taken looking "down" "at the top of" the recessed housings.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Western Massachusetts
    Posts
    536

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    IF that AC or FMC is integral to the fixture - then there is a different problem, because the wiring connection between the fixture and the premisis wiring system IS NOT ACCESSIBLE (PLYWOOD).
    H.G.

    Can you explain what you're saying here? I have seen countless recessed lighting cans with an integral junction box connected to the housing via an AC or MC whip. These products are installed in the joist cavities that are formed by ceiling/floor joists. The products include units from JUNO, Lightolier, HALO, CE, and others.

    Are you saying that this junction box needs to be ACCESSIBLE? If that was the case, wouldn't that disqualify all "new work" recessed lighting fixtures of this style, since the junction box would be sandwiched somewhere between the plywood subfloor and the gypsum ceiling?

    See for example: HALO H27ICAT Spec Sheet

    Incidentally, they do make shallow units such as the HALO H27 series linked to above; no need to butcher the attic floor like they did.


  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Quote Originally Posted by paul hardy View Post
    H.G by appearance that housing is an air tight housing most non air tight housings have visible holes and slots that allow the passage of air. Also some manufactures such as halo have a air tight trim that when installed makes the assembly air tight. The wiring compartment on most all recessed housings is made accessible from the trim side by removal of the housing such as when they are installed in a floor system with no attic above. Now when the plywood was installed furring should have been used to raise the plywood above the housing and the insulation paper should not be in contact with the housing.
    I agree almost completely. There is still the issue of an unremediated breach and thermal break in the insulation for the thermal envelope and the fire resistance breach in the attic floor-ceiling below. Is this a qualified recessed fixture installation to meet IRC fire codes and the energy code.

    Look this morning communications were difficult. To me, the "buisness side" of a luminaire, especially a recessed one - is the lamp side. It was very confusing (to ME) what I was seeing - when I asked, the answers weren't computing. Keep in mind the OP insisted this was not an Air tight fixture - I was struggling to match what I thought I plainly was looking at with what was contractory statements in the original post.

    Then there followed additional interaction/discussion.

    Having a "curb" or such so close to the scuttle wouldn't be a problem if there were no flooring - but would be an issue with the flooring - one could trip on the "curb" or protective box of plywood and furing and go head over heels down the scuttle opening.

    There is still the primary question as to IF this luminaire can be considered IC-Type if there is no permanent viewable "indication" - if it is lacking the "indication" it cannot be considered to be IC-type. If it bears an indication - its questionable integrity status (damage or modification) displaced gasket and housing cap - and inproper installation overall is contrary to the listing - and therefore its status.

    Beyond the electrical code side and UL listing - it as photographed in the THREE photographs provided by the OP, is not properly installed; and is installed in a DAMP location - the unremediated gap in the thermal envelope to adjacent unconditioned attic - and proximity to the scuttle of the otherwise floored attic. I am still distressed by the housing protrusion/pop at the right of the SPRING CLIP, the displaced housing CAP (compared to the CAN) and the displaced housing gasket. From the smears in the otherwise settled layer of dirt/dust it appears someone grasped it and moved or jiggled it. Who knows, perhaps after tripping over it. It cannot be installed as it is, protruding the attic floor, exposed as it is.


  24. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    W.Va.
    Posts
    8

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    I don't have my code book handy but I would consider this installation a violation. The wiring as well as the housing are not physically protected from damage.


  25. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Chicago IL
    Posts
    1,984

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Now that the post has been clarified a bit, I have to agree that the greenfield does look like the factory whip and connector that comes off of the junction box to the can. My original understanding was that that whip was the line feed, not the feed from the junction box.
    However, the connection does look strained and most likely has been bent over to lower it. Probably won't be an issue but you never know.
    As far as the install itself, it's still bad and I would write it as such.
    - can is exposed and unprotected in a location that could easily be damaged or tripped over
    - the insulation that looks like it is wrapped around the can bothers me
    - the location lends itself to someone setting a box on top of the can, not sure how well a forgotten cardboard box would do on top of that can

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Charlottesville, Va.
    Posts
    292

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Will you guys please stop posting....every post adds something to the growing list of things I don't know about lighting fixtures and have to look up. ....just kidding obviously....I appreciate the discussion.

    I have to confess checking for air tight fixtures has not been on my inspection radar for several reasons and my original statement that this was not an air tight fixture was maybe incorrect.

    When I pulled the bulb and trim ring I could easily see up inside the ceiling joist bay and there was no gasketing on the trim ring or fixture housing sealing it to the backside of the drywall. I assumed that meant it was not an air tight fixture. Some googling tonight leads me to believe(maybe incorrectly) that a gasket may not be required at the ceiling drywall for a fixture to be considered air tight.

    Is that correct ? Can a recessed lighting fixture with no gasket at the ceiling drywall but with tight fitting trim ring(s) that prevent the bulk movement of air be classified as air tight?

    My original question of a readily visible indicator for determining if a recessed lighting fixture is IC or Non-IC rated...does one exist? Is the can color reliable to any degree.

    Thanks.


  27. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Foster View Post
    Will you guys please stop posting....every post adds something to the growing list of things I don't know about lighting fixtures and have to look up. ....just kidding obviously....I appreciate the discussion.

    I have to confess checking for air tight fixtures has not been on my inspection radar for several reasons and my original statement that this was not an air tight fixture was maybe incorrect.

    When I pulled the bulb and trim ring I could easily see up inside the ceiling joist bay and there was no gasketing on the trim ring or fixture housing sealing it to the backside of the drywall. I assumed that meant it was not an air tight fixture. Some googling tonight leads me to believe(maybe incorrectly) that a gasket may not be required at the ceiling drywall for a fixture to be considered air tight.

    Is that correct ? Can a recessed lighting fixture with no gasket at the ceiling drywall but with tight fitting trim ring(s) that prevent the bulk movement of air be classified as air tight?

    My original question of a readily visible indicator for determining if a recessed lighting fixture is IC or Non-IC rated...does one exist? Is the can color reliable to any degree.

    Thanks.
    Robert Foster,

    Here is a direct link to the UL Marking Guide for Luminaires. Be sure to review the notes at the end. See also notes on convertable recessed luminaires. Some are both Type-IC and Type Non-IC depending on the trim, selected and installed, etc.

    Although it is a large file (2.71 MB) it is a mere 37 or so pages long.

    The guide and its NOTES (all at the end) are fairly easy to follow.

    Here is the (clickable) link (from UL.com): http://www.ul.com/global/documents/o...2006_Final.pdf

    Note: despite the web address reference (april 2006) and the default file name when you download it, the actual Guide downloaded will be issue dated January 2010.

    Hope THAT helps.

    Good night/morning!

    H.G.


  28. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    I can't answer for all brands but the only difference between an Progress P87 series IC and non-IC rated housing is a sticker that gets removed if it is used in a IC setting. The bulb and trim selection also become more limited.

    I can tell you I have never seen a 4" remodeler housing that is air-tight. The only 4" AT all seem to be new construction and have an enclosure over the socket housing.

    As far as air-tight, this is an energy code isssue and unless it has changed it is not required everywhere. I would agree that it is a good idea as it should limit the leakage of conditioned air and result in lower energy bills.


  29. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    As far as air-tight, this is an energy code isssue and unless it has changed it is not required everywhere.
    Air-tight/sealing/blocking-stopping "issues" also when separations involved. Such as attached garage under living space, installation to ceiling of floor/ceiling with adjacent unconditioned space, protection/separation of attic/roof structure, etc. Installation in a classified assembly, etc. not encased in field assembled sealed gyp box, etc. Its fire-code sections of IRC/IBC construction of gyp/wall-board or equal skinned one-side wood frame, joist, or truss built assembly issues not just energy code, IIRC at least since 2000 or 2003; and of course Classified Assembly detail.

    The Luminaire Marking Guide is a comprehensive resource. If not containing minmal identification information - it would have to be considered unlisted equipment. Modifications complete or incomplete, authorized/approved or not, can alter the status. Damages, changes, alterations, and errors in installation can further effect listed status. Classification not the same as Listed. More than just UL provides services.

    I see a marked cut line in the plywood near the notch in the photo near the scuttle. Obviously the installations are not original construction/electrical final.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Foster View Post

    When I pulled the bulb and trim ring I could easily see up inside the ceiling joist bay and there was no gasketing on the trim ring or fixture housing sealing it to the backside of the drywall.
    This would indicate a problem with the condition of and/or selection of equipment.

    I'd like to see photographs from the viewpoint of looking up at the ceiling installation and into the lamp side of the fixture, and of any identifying marks, labels, warnings, infomation available. Especially since communication has been a bit confusing thus far.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 10-21-2010 at 10:43 AM. Reason: cleaning up formatting issues, and limiting the quoted portions specific to responsive discussion.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Charlottesville, Va.
    Posts
    292

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    H.G. Thanks for the link to the UL document. I've downloaded it and added it to my reading list.

    It's highly unlikely that I'll be able to go back and get pictures from the living space side. But the builder called me today to ask some questions about my report which he received through the realtor and I asked him about the fixtures. They are air tight and IC rated. He said the town inspector had the same questions as I and he had to go get the box out of the dumpster to satisfy the town inspector. The CO was granted.

    I've been trying unsuccessfully to locate a section of the NEC that would cover the lighting fixtures lack of physical protection within 6 feet of the attic scuttle. I've got a copy of Code Check, a borrowed copy of the 08 NEC Handbook and I've browsed the online NEC available over on the NFPA website. I can't find anything in print that addresses fixtures within 6 feet of the attic scuttle.

    Does the code actually state anything about fixtures in this regard or was it creative license on my part to have written this fixture up as needing physical protection? Can someone point me in the right direction if it exists.

    I don't personally require code to write something up, but it helps to have that support when I am in a challenging municipality with low code enforcement and my reputation as be too thorough is growing.


  31. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    On The Mason-Dixon Line
    Posts
    577

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    The 6' from the nearest edge of the scuttle hole or attic entrance comes from Nec article 320.23(A). Article 334.23 tells us that MN cable shall also comply with 320.23, Article 330.23 tells us that MC cable must comply with 320.23 also.
    Basically it cables the "rule" applies to.

    Good luck finding the 6' from the edge of the scuttle hole, requirement, for luminaires( lights fixtures).


  32. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Charlottesville, Va.
    Posts
    292

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Quote Originally Posted by ken horak View Post
    The 6' from the nearest edge of the scuttle hole or attic entrance comes from Nec article 320.23(A). Article 334.23 tells us that MN cable shall also comply with 320.23, Article 330.23 tells us that MC cable must comply with 320.23 also.
    Basically it cables the "rule" applies to.

    Good luck finding the 6' from the edge of the scuttle hole, requirement, for luminaires( lights fixtures).
    Thank you Ken...that's what I thought, but there's so many dam pages to cover I am always wary of missing something.


  33. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    I don't recall the exact references at the moment. Protecting the integral wiring of the luminaire and connections to the premisis wiring system were covered in the Scope for Luminaires (formerly lighting fixtures); There used to be precise language to the effect in the "E" section for luminaires in the IRC circa 2000, 2003...The top surface of the floor/ceiling structure in proximity of the scuttle is covered in the NEC (320 & 334) and IRC 2006 ((3702) within six feet - references to both AC and FMC required to be guarded, and that's what the flooring has been notched out from that circular pattern; Manufacturer's instructions (protrusion from floor no matter the distance - as there is flooring present); general construction details;But one can certainly rely on the provisionjs for practical safeguarding, guarding, protection from damage, manufacturer's listed instructions, etc. in Chapter 1 of the NEC.Sorry but the brain is over tired and I'm not up for cross referencing the minute details at the moment, and without the specifics on the particular product I'd rather not chase and reveiw literally hundreds of pages of various standards editions, etc. for what I frankly am doubtful of a comprehensive and correct understanding of what exactly was present.However, there can be no doubt that the envelope is pierced if you can SEE THROUGH TO AND INTO the joist cavity from below, there is no insulation layer surrounding the fixture, be it IC-type or not, and not being enclosed in a gyp box, and/or otherwise remediating the void in the fire skin protection of the floor/ceiling to attic assembly is a fire codes/construction defect from the IRC end and insurance property underwriting risk assessment; and the unsupported opening in the plywood interfers with the structural web of it as far as holding power; but the kicker is the safety issue to persons in the attic; the unguarded protrusion and unequal toe-of-shoe-catching voids in the floor is/are a safety trip/fall obstruction, especially so near an unguarded scuttle opening in an attic with FLOORING; so the safety defect issues and fire envelope/insulation/energy loss issues are enough to write the heck out of it, and code references aren't necessary to do so.Shame because a properly sized AT, IC (not too tall) old work luminaire would have done the job, with a gyp box installed first, even a properly sized and rated new work luminaire with a gyp box and properly insulated; and there would have been no need to hack up the plywood attic floor. Fortunately, it should be able to be blocked and patched when the luminaires are replaced with ones that you cannot see into the voids in the joist cavity, and the cavity can be re-insulated, correctly.
    Again, brain tired, but I'm recalling a limitation of openings for a properly rated and sealled recessed luminaire at just under 7" also, something like 6-13/16ths or near there. (for separations between conditioned living space and non-conditioned, non-habital spaces such as mentioned previously.


  34. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Trip hazard and possible physical damage to the wiring aside, if the fixture is installed in a non-rated fire assembly what would the issue be?

    and not being enclosed in a gyp box, and/or otherwise remediating the void in the fire skin protection of the floor/ceiling to attic assembly is a fire codes/construction defect from the IRC end and insurance property underwriting risk assessment



  35. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Thermally Protected Fixture IC identification

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Trip hazard and possible physical damage to the wiring aside, if the fixture is installed in a non-rated fire assembly what would the issue be?
    SEPARATION penetration UNREMEDIATED.

    The roof assembly has to be separated from the area below - that is what the gyp membrane and blocking/stopping is all about, Jim. Specifications in the building code create an effective 15 and 30 separation for the 10/20 reaction and evacuation; to prevent the spread of smoke and fire for the occupants to evacuate before collapse.


    THERMAL envelope violated, wind/moisture barrier violated & unremediated. protection of roof assembly - hence the ventillation etc. we do with attics.

    If you are interested in the WHY'S of code provisions you can explore the 100 years or so of discussion and review, Jim Port. There is more than the NEC involved. It (the installation) does not meet that for a recessed luminaire in THAT location, in THOSE circumstances for THAT vintage construction.

    Robert, I'm not buying the had to grab a box from the dumpster argument. It doesn't matter WHAT it says on the box, the luminaire itself must be marked. Manufacturer, listing or classified status, which NTL, model number, a means to identify its date of manufacture, a country of origin, and the minimum markings required as indicated by the STANDARD. If this identification is not present - and it has to be able to be identified from the lamp/exposed side - then the luminaire is in quesiton. Far too many bootleg, devices have been imported and show up in the market place - even those appearing to be properly indicated have been found to be counterfeit. That is NOT news - its been an ongoing problem for over a decade. Without properly labeled/indicated luminaire - that survives the installation process - it shouldn't, normally wouldn't be approved, IF actually noticed. Builders, contractors, and sellers say a lot of things, tell a lot of "stories", so do used car salesmen.


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •