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  1. #1
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    Default Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    This looks like good work to me - a 200 amp panel in the pump house at the edge of the property feeds a 125 amp remote panel in the attached garage of the house.
    I have one beef - the brass colored screw in the remote 125 amp panel should have been removed, correct?

    It is tempting at this point with screwdriver in hand to simply remove the screw and put the panel cover back on. How do we feel about that?

    Service comes in at the top of the first pic, the 2nd and 3rd pics are the panel in the garage.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    Where's the ground ?

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Where's the ground ?
    Directly above the center of the earth.

    In pic one, the bare copper at the top. In pic 2 and 3, the bare Al comes in at the bottom. the branch circuit grounds are all there, hidden behind the neutral wires. They all go to lugs mounted on the back of the panel.

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  4. #4
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    John

    The remote panel is fed with 4 wires (H-H-N-Grd) any bonding screw brass or otherwise should not be installed in the panel downstream of the service equipment.

    Strange though I see nm cable entering the garage panel but no bare equipment grounds?

    Is the nm cable without ground and pulled through metal conduit?


  5. #5
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    John you answered my question while I was typing......


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    I see the panel bonded in the lower right of picture 3 but I don't see any bonding for the branch circuits. In fact the lowest panel entry on the left side looks like the ground wire has been cut off.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Zabarylo View Post
    I see the panel bonded in the lower right of picture 3 but I don't see any bonding for the branch circuits. In fact the lowest panel entry on the left side looks like the ground wire has been cut off.
    No, nothing is cut off and the grounding is all fine, unless you want to talk about twisting and double-lugging of branch ground wires. I don't. My question is ....

    Would you remove the brass neutral bonding screw in the remote panel as a service to your client?

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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    This looks like good work to me - a 200 amp panel in the pump house at the edge of the property feeds a 125 amp remote panel in the attached garage of the house.
    I have one beef - the brass colored screw in the remote 125 amp panel should have been removed, correct?

    It is tempting at this point with screwdriver in hand to simply remove the screw and put the panel cover back on. How do we feel about that?

    Service comes in at the top of the first pic, the 2nd and 3rd pics are the panel in the garage.
    I assume you're talking about doing this after shutting off the power to the panel. Bzzzt......bzzzzzzttt.......

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    Is there a driven ground outside?


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    Quote Originally Posted by neal lewis View Post
    Is there a driven ground outside?
    Not at the house. Ground is at the pumphouse, appears to be UFER, 2008 construction. I think we are clear that the screw needs to be removed from the panel down at the house.

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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    Not positive what the Canadian Electrical Code says on the subject, BUT the NEC article 250.32 requires you install a ground rod at the house also.
    You still keep the neutrals(grounded) and the grounds ( grounding) conductors seperate from each other.

    As far as removing the bond screw rather then write it up ? NO go.
    Your there to inspect and report your findings - not correct / repair your findings


  12. #12
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    Would you remove the brass neutral bonding screw in the remote panel as a service to your client?
    I wouldn't think that would be within the scope of your services considering the possible liability if you were incorrect in the removal of any bonding jumper/screw.

    However I'd make note that there is objectionable current (lots of it) using the equipment grounding conductor of the feeder. Maybe as much as half of the total neutral current at any given time.

    I'm wondering also why they would add that grounding lug to terminate the feeder ground in the garage panel? Depending on how they installed that lug that could also be a technical violation ... sheet metal screw .. etc.

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 11-08-2010 at 02:02 PM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    I wouldn't think that would be within the scope of your services considering the possible liability if you were incorrect in the removal of any bonding jumper/screw.

    However I'd make note that there is objectionable current (lots of it) using the equipment grounding conductor of the feeder. Maybe as much as half of the total neutral current at any given time.
    Right. Luckily no harm appears to have come from it in the 2 years. I suggested they contact the contractor who did the installation. His name is on the electrical permit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    I'm wondering also why they would add that grounding lug to terminate the feeder ground in the garage panel? Depending on how they installed that lug that could also be a technical violation ... sheet metal screw .. etc.
    That lug is a common sight here in newer installations. I could show you several similar examples from the last 2 weeks. I believe the holes are factory drilled.

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    I agree with Ken. Don't fix anything. Just report your findings and move on.

    If you started fixing things, where would you draw the line? Free yourself of having to make those decisions and just don't do it.


  15. #15
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    I agree with Ken. Don't fix anything. Just report your findings and move on.

    If you started fixing things, where would you draw the line? Free yourself of having to make those decisions and just don't do it.
    What, you don't tighten the knobs on the bifold doors? Tsk, tsk. []

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  16. #16
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    I agree with Ken. Don't fix anything. Just report your findings and move on.

    If you started fixing things, where would you draw the line? Free yourself of having to make those decisions and just don't do it.
    My line is based on whether it is easier to fix or to write up. It can take longer to describe where a loose outlet is than to tighten it. Same with door knobs. If the house is full of them, thats how I write it up. Selfish, I know.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  17. #17
    George Wells's Avatar
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    No, nothing is cut off and the grounding is all fine, unless you want to talk about twisting and double-lugging of branch ground wires. I don't. My question is ....

    Would you remove the brass neutral bonding screw in the remote panel as a service to your client?
    There a a few different reasons I would not remove the screw but the main ones are that I only do inspections, not repairs and unless the client already owns the house I would not have the right to make any modifications on the client's behalf. The owner would have to authorize the repairs.


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    Quote Originally Posted by George Wells View Post
    There a a few different reasons I would not remove the screw but the main ones are that I only do inspections, not repairs and unless the client already owns the house I would not have the right to make any modifications on the client's behalf. The owner would have to authorize the repairs.
    Thanks, George, good point.

    That reminds me of the client who got busy in the kitchen "fixing" the dishwasher while I was elsewhere. He was pretty sure he knew why it wasn't being used and so borrowed a few screwdrivers and had the front panel open when I walked in. "First you buy it, then you can fix it."

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  19. #19
    John Steinke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Remove the neutral bonding screw?

    Sure, remove the screw ... let us know what you do after the entire panel insides fall free from the box!

    Don't YOU fix anything. That's 'electric work,' no matter how you slice it, and there are multiple other possibilities to evaluate before anyone plays with the connections. Leave it to a pro- just write it up.


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