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  1. #1
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    Default Challenger circuit breker help

    I'd like some help positively determining if these Challenger 20 amp circuit breakers are rated for two conductors. I don't believe they are because pressure is applied to the conductor(s) with just the end of the screw and not a pressure plate of any kind.

    I've googled as best as time allows right now, even entering the below numbers in one of the part listings at one of the large electrial sites....no luck yet on my end...the change of ownership and branding sure doesn't help. The houses were built in 1998...big estate three houses.

    Here's the data off the breaker.

    Type C120
    HACR type
    1 pole J969
    E7S19-T-92 02 18
    LR43556

    Thanks for the help.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breker help

    It Might have Choked Artie But it ain't gone'a choke Stymie! Our Gang " The Pooch " (1932)
    Billy J. Stephens HI Service Memphis TN.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breker help

    Thanks....I tried the data sheets there. They only load as single pages which is frustrating and some of them don't load at all for me. The geelectric name is on those data sheets whose ownership post dates the period when these houses were constructed, according to info. I read on another site.


  4. #4
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breker help

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Foster View Post
    Thanks....I tried the data sheets there. They only load as single pages which is frustrating and some of them don't load at all for me. The geelectric name is on those data sheets whose ownership post dates the period when these houses were constructed, according to info. I read on another site.
    Your not going to find much on the web about challenger breaker specs. Your best bet is to take a look on the side of the breakers molded case. Some breakers will have the # of conductors allowed for the terminal located there with a little embossed diagram of the compression terminal.

    Not having that you must assume only one conductor ... the type terminal you have usually will not accept two conductors.

    If you go to this link you get your answer on page 12 .. line 18 ..titled Multiple Conductor Connectors. I'd bookmark the link it gives you a lot of useful information about circuit breakers that you will use quite often.

    http://ewh.ieee.org/r6/san_francisco...t_Breakers.pdf

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 11-16-2010 at 12:33 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breker help

    Billy's, information answered the question, definitively.

    mf.

    Matt Faust
    Real Estate Inspector

  6. #6
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breker help

    Quote Originally Posted by matt faust View Post
    Billy's, information answered the question, definitively.

    mf.
    Where in that link does it specify number of conductors that can be terminated to C120 ?? I can't locate it


  7. #7
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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breker help

    Thank you for the link Roger...downloaded a copy to my ever expanding reading list.

    I recently purchased a magnifying glass and added it to my toolbag to help with reading the sides of circuit breakers. These Challengers had no markings, that I could interpret, indicating they were listed for 2 conductors, but I like to be thorough so was searching for additional confirmation.

    I took Matts post as sarcastic...but maybe I was wrong...


  8. #8
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breker help

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Foster View Post
    Thank you for the link Roger...downloaded a copy to my ever expanding reading list.

    Your welcome

    I recently purchased a magnifying glass and added it to my toolbag to help with reading the sides of circuit breakers. These Challengers had no markings, that I could interpret, indicating they were listed for 2 conductors, but I like to be thorough so was searching for additional confirmation.

    I took Matts post as sarcastic...but maybe I was wrong...
    It's probably about 99.9% they are not allowed two conductors but best to be as sure as you can be before entering it in a report.

    Yeah I think Matt was being sarcastic now that you bring it to my attention.


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breker help

    I can't say for sure, but the connector looks like it was made to accept 2 conductors.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breaker help

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Where in that link does it specify number of conductors that can be terminated to C120 ?? I can't locate it

    Roger,

    I'll throw some mud up on the window and see if the window comes clearer ...

    The wire size *IS* specified in those pages ... the wire size *IS* specified as 14-10 AWG ... nothing in there about 'more than one' 14-10 AWG, thus that leaves us at 'just one' is allowed.

    After all, the NEC does say "Terminals for more than one conductor ... shall be so identified.", and not "so identified" then only one conductor is allowed.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breker help

    From the UL Marking Guide for MCCBs (Molded Case Circuit Breakers) more recent than Roger's 2002 version:
    Multiple Conductor Connectors - If the terminals of a circuit breaker are acceptable for use with multiple connections in one hole, and the breaker is intended for this type of use, the breaker is marked to indicate the proper multiple connections. This is uncommon for breakers -- ordinarily, the terminals are suitable for only one wire per hole.
    Red and underlining were not original to the UL text.

    HTH.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-16-2010 at 07:06 PM.

  12. #12
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breaker help

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Roger,

    I'll throw some mud up on the window and see if the window comes clearer ...

    The wire size *IS* specified in those pages ... the wire size *IS* specified as 14-10 AWG ... nothing in there about 'more than one' 14-10 AWG, thus that leaves us at 'just one' is allowed.

    After all, the NEC does say "Terminals for more than one conductor ... shall be so identified.", and not "so identified" then only one conductor is allowed.
    That wasn't that muddy. I saw the wire size just not the # of wires.... I do get what your adding though. Forgot the language in the NEC. I gotta get a new 2008 (or break out an older edition) ..after being on this forum these past months the binding has deteriorated ( from opening and closing) so that several dozen of the pages have fallen out and it is in disarray....


  13. #13
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breker help

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    From the UL Marking Guide for MCCBs (Molded Case Circuit Breakers) more recent than Roger's 2002 version:

    Red and underlining were not original to the UL text.

    HTH.
    That underlined text did seem odd to me for UL original. Thanks

    Looks like the link is a modified version from the IEEE website, guess they felt it needed a little tweaking...

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 11-16-2010 at 07:51 PM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breker help

    Thank you for the continuing education.


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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breker help

    I'm not sure if that was sarcasm...or confusion???

    The text quoted IS original as to the 2008 UL Marking Guide for MCCBs, I highlighted portions using red and underlining for emphasis, the emphasis was mine; the bold was original, as was the text.

    One terminal, one hole, one conductor; unless expressly noted ("indicated") on the device and terminal otherwise, for any CB less than 100A. NEC defaults with same "one terminal - one conductor" connection, unless indicated/marked otherwise - Chapter 1, Section 110.14, subsection(A), second paragraph especially:

    Quote Originally Posted by NEC 110.14(A)
    110.14 Electrical Connections.

    (A) Terminals. Connection of conductors to terminal parts shall ensure a thoroughly good connection without damaging the conductors and shall be made by means of pressure connectors (including set-screw type), solder lugs, or splices to flexible leads. Connection by means of wire-binding screws or studs and nuts that have upturned lugs or the equivalent shall be permitted for 10 AWG or smaller conductors.

    Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified.
    Hope that's clear(er).

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-17-2010 at 08:23 PM.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breker help

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    I'm not sure if that was sarcasm...or confusion???

    The text quoted IS original as to the 2008 UL Marking Guide for MCCBs, I highlighted portions using red and underlining for emphasis, the emphasis was mine; the bold was original, as was the text.

    One terminal, one hole, one conductor; unless expressly noted ("indicated") on the device and terminal otherwise, for any CB less than 100A. NEC defaults with same "one terminal - one conductor" connection, unless indicated/marked otherwise - Chapter 1, Section 110.14, subsection(A), second paragraph especially:



    Hope that's clear(er).
    Confusion.... confusion is now gone ....


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breker help

    Correct me if I'm wrong.
    Square D (the newer versions) and
    Cuttler Hammer type CH
    are the ONLY breakers which can have two wires under one screw.
    Right?

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  18. #18
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Challenger circuit breker help

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong.
    Square D (the newer versions) and
    Cuttler Hammer type CH
    are the ONLY breakers which can have two wires under one screw.
    Right?
    Those are listed for 2 ...yes. It would be best to look at it this way .. if the breaker is marked for 2 conductors then 2 conductors it is. If not then only one.

    It would be nice if a list was out there that is verifiable that would specify the breakers that accept two conductors.

    You often here the argument it must be installed to the manufacturers instructions ... true NEC 110.3b says so .... when was the last time you saw instructions come with a breaker....??


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