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  1. #1
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    Default Two service panels

    Single meter with two service panels. #1 wire coming from meter into exterior meter. The wires are bugged with 2 #1 wires, each feeding a 150 amp box - one on the outside of the house and one on the inside of the house. Each box has its own service shut off in the panel. Is this OK. I would think the wire coming off the meter would have to be larger to support both boxes. I have seen one meter service two boxes, but never like this. Also, the grounds and neutrals were separated in both boxes.

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    Last edited by william siegel; 11-26-2010 at 09:35 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Exclamation Re: Two service panels

    William Siegel,

    First of all, welcome "back in the saddle, again!"

    I am not going to address your question, or even try to, at this point.

    Appreciated your "ladder safety" post, I'm making one on another form of "safety"...heregoes:

    Cover Your(and your loved ones') Assets (CYA): Do NOT upload photo file names that include property addresses and/or client names to the world wide web. They may HAUNT you!!! Do NOT feed the 500 lb. gorilla (shark, attorney, etc.)!

    Step Two (reverse order!):

    Go back and view your original post, when signed in.
    Click the EDIT button which will appear on the lower right of the post display box.
    Scroll down and click "upload photos" ... the pop-up box will appear .
    Use one of the LOWER buttons in said upload box, it will indicate the ability to "delete photos" (and display that/those file name/s previously uploaded).
    Highlight the photo you uploaded and DELETE it (click).

    Re-upload photo as indicated below(in edit mode with NEW photo file name).

    Step One (yep, reversed order, in the future ALWAYS do this prior to uploading a photo!!!):

    Copy the photo on your harddrive with the file name as the PROPERTY ADDRESS {which includes a (legal photo) designation}, and REMANE IT on your harddrive. Choose a name which does NOT include the PROPERTY ADDRESS, save said "copy" with new name, use THIS newly named photo file name to UPLOAD to InspectionNews.

    Delete this COPY photo file when no longer necessary (regain wasted HD space later with file/HD maintenance).

    Enjoy , one less potential aggrivation/stressor down the road (whew!). The "WWW" (cached copies, data miners, etc.), like an elephant , never seems to forget!

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 11-26-2010 at 09:38 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Nope not ok.

    A few of the problems. Some of which you already suspect and are correct in your analysis. I'll point a few out and hang around for awhile as others will likely have more to say.

    1.) The disconnects are in violation of 230.72 which essentially states for services the disconnects must be grouped together. You have one outside and one inside therefore they are not grouped.

    2.) The #1 copper is allowed for 150 amps using table 310.15b6 and 3 wire single phase 120/240 supply.. however .. they have tapped off the #1 copper service entrance conductors from the meter base with 2 sets of service entrance conductors which are #1 copper. Those 2 sets then go to 'service equipment' with 150 amp main breakers. This has the potential to put well over 150 amps on each tapped # 1 service entrance conductor coming from the meter. (You mentioned this one) Whether or not the tap is incorrect will depend on the total calculated load of both panels. Since all sets of service entrance conductors are #1 copper the single set from the meter must be sized to carry the calculated load in accordance with art. 220 of both panels.
    All this would only become possible if the service disconnects were 'grouped' and since they are not grouped the tap to the service entrance conductors is not compliant.


    3.) Separation of neutral and ground in the service equipment is not correct. You mentioned this one also but you may need to give more detail before we can determine this.... see **


    ** I see a metal offset nipple with a bonding bushing which is good but I can't see where the bonding conductor goes to .. it should go to the neutral buss. Also the neutral buss is on insulating standoffs and must have a main bonding jumper or green screw from the buss to the metal enclosure.

    4.) I'm not seeing any of the grounding wires (GEC) to the water pipe or rods or whatever they go to landed on the neutral buss they should not connect to the metal enclosure via lugs or grounding bars when at the service equipment. I'm not positive if any grounding electrode conductors even enter that enclosure...maybe the green insulated wires ??? Maybe grounding is in the meter base ?? Maybe it's in the inside panel??

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 11-27-2010 at 10:41 AM.

  4. #4
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    Lightbulb Re: Two service panels

    1) Separation of Mains ("Each box has its own service shut off in the panel") due to remote locations violates NEC, see Roger's post for article # as I do not have code books with me (holiday weekend and all).
    2) It is always allowed to separate neutral conductors and grounding conductors. Please note however that in a sub panel they must be separated.
    3) Neutral bus must be bonded to the panelboard (load center in this case) enclosure containing the first means of disconnect. This appears to be the case with the evident bonding strap on the lower end of the neutral bus, (unable to verify existence of screw installed from strap into enclosure back pan).
    4) Ampacity on # 1 AWG Cu allowable only when terminated in a single device or tapped and split on multiple devices not exceeding the rated ampacity of the conductor. Not the case here!
    5) Bonding bushing properly utilized, however we can not see from the picture if the conductor from the bonding bushing lug is properly terminated, (as previously noted by Roger).
    6) One simple solution (for educational purposes only and to be performed by qualified licensed individuals only) would be to install a 150 amp rated sub-feed lug kit in the exterior load center (providing the exterior load center bus is rated for this lug kit), remove the phase (aka hot) feeders to the interior panel from the insulated lugs and install to the sub-feed lug kit. Now you have a single main (the 150 amp breaker in the exterior load center) and a sub-panel (the interior load center). All service feeder conductors are properly protected by a correctly rated single overcurrent device. Alternately a lower ampacity breaker (a 125, 110 or 100 amp) could be installed to feed the sub-panel if the bus is not rated for the full 150 amps.
    · You are allowed to leave the MCB (Main Circuit Breaker) located in the sub-panel aka interior load center as it becomes a sub main and although not required it is allowed.
    · There must be a separate equipment grounding conductor from the exterior load center to the interior sub-panel in this new configuration as the sub-panel requires a full four wire feeder, 2 phase (or hots), 1 neutral and 1 ground.
    · Now just verify the neutral on the interior panel is not bonded to the enclosure and that the branch circuit grounds are properly terminated on a grounding bar and only neutral conductors are properly terminated on the interior sub-panel neutral bar. All neutral conductor bonding must take place at the exterior load center.
    7) As to how to write it up, my suggestion would be, “Multiple potential National Electrical Code safety violations noted involving the electrical service and multiple locations of the electrical circuit breaker boxes feeder conductors, strongly recommend having a qualified electrician further assess and make corrections as needed.”

    Bill Nolte, C.S.H.O.
    Master Electrician
    Fort Worth, Texas


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    Default Re: Two service panels

    In addition to everything else stated in the posts above, that first service equipment enclosure is being used as a junction box and as a raceway feeding the service entrance conductors through it to the other service equipment enclosure - and this is not allowed (along with all the other things stated in the posts above which are not allowed either).

    Another things is that there are conductors which are not service entrance conductors in with the service entrances conductors feeding through the first service equipment to the second service equipment, and the only time the two are allowed to be in the same enclosure is when they terminate in that same enclosure.

    They also made some strange choices of colors for those other circuits: i.e., red/blue and then blue for a neutral?

    Also looks to be some wire bending violations at that neutral to the neutral terminal bar (as well as some other bends too).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Thanks for the replies. But I have another thought / question. Is it possible that the interior panel is a distribution panel and not a service panel. I have included a picture. It does have a 150 amp breaker at the top. There were no other lugs on the outside panel (except on the neutral bar), or without installing another breaker, to run wires to the interior box. Is this an acceptable method to wire a distribution panel, or was my first analysis correct? Just want to make sure, as I have never seen this before.

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Quote Originally Posted by william siegel View Post
    Thanks for the replies. But I have another thought / question. Is it possible that the interior panel is a distribution panel and not a service panel. I have included a picture. It does have a 150 amp breaker at the top. There were no other lugs on the outside panel (except on the neutral bar), or without installing another breaker, to run wires to the interior box. Is this an acceptable method to wire a distribution panel, or was my first analysis correct? Just want to make sure, as I have never seen this before.

    Nope ..it's service equipment. If the electrician had done as Bill said it would be as you are thinking .. a panel that is not service equipment.

    You have two service panels due to the fact that you have service entrance conductors with line side connections to both panels each having individual "Service Mains". To be non-service equipment the interior panel would need a ' Load ' side connection to the 'outside' panel (like Bill explained). Then you would have one set of service conductors landing on the Mains ( 150 amp breaker) of that outside panel. That would make the outside panel a single mains disconnect of all power to both panels. Those polaris taps would not be there. You would have a ' feeder' consisting of 4 wires H-H-N-Grd from the outside panel to the interior panel connected as Bill explained. The outside panel or service equipment would have neutral and ground bonded and the interior panel would have neutral and ground not bonded.

    The way it is now in order to remove all power from the dwelling you need to turn off two service mains that are not grouped .. as in two service panels side by side. This is a violation of the electrical code which is just one of the several other problems mentioned.

    I also notice a 4 wire feed entering the interior panel. So this tells me that whomever did this installation thought they were probably making the interior panel a non-service panel. Unfortunately they don't have it right and one is left to speculate what they were thinking.

    Also it is important that we verify the bonding in the outside panel. If it is not bonded properly you have a very serious safety issue.

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 11-28-2010 at 09:35 AM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Wireways within service equipment enclosures

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    In addition to everything else stated in the posts above, that first service equipment enclosure is being used as a junction box and as a raceway feeding the service entrance conductors through it to the other service equipment enclosure - and this is not allowed (along with all the other things stated in the posts above which are not allowed either).
    The NEC mandates that any panelboard enclosure having more than 6 circuits also incorporate wireways or auxiliary gutters (I do not remember specifically which term was used) within the enclosure. It is a common misconception that splices are not allowed within the service equipment enclosure containing the panelboard or load center. Splices within the wireway or aux. gutter portion of the enclosure are legal by code. The wireway or aux. gutter may be utilized in the same manner as a "junction box".
    I'll post the article number(s) as soon as I return home and get a chance to look them up.

    Bill Nolte, C.S.H.O.
    Master Electrician
    Fort Worth, Texas


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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Thanks guys - I really appreciate it.

    Bill

    Bill Siegel
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    Default Re: Wireways within service equipment enclosures

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Nolte View Post
    It is a common misconception that splices are not allowed within the service equipment enclosure containing the panelboard or load center. Splices within the wireway or aux. gutter portion of the enclosure are legal by code.
    The NEC mandates that the space NOT BE USED FOR, and then lists many uses.

    It is a common misconception that CONDUCTORS are running through that panel and not terminating in that panel. SPLICES are indeed okay in that space, however, it is not the splices which are the problem but the fact that the conductors do not then terminate in that panel.

    I'll post the article number(s) as soon as I return home and get a chance to look them up.
    I look forward to the code section, and I suspect it is the same code section to which I am referring, only you are not reading it correctly and that you reading into it what it does not say.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    I have been involved with several interpretations of the code section that addresses this issue (I'm not telling what section that is...) . What I have come to learn from quite a bit of research is this ... panelboards do not come listed by UL or the manufacturer for the purpose of passing thru or splicing conductors that do not terminate on a switch or ocpd or fuse in that panel.This is regardless of any adequate space (gutter) that you might see available in the panelboard to pass thru or splice conductors that are entering and leaving the panelboard without terminating.

    In order to pass thru service conductors or splice them so they could go on to a 2nd different panel and terminate in that panel you would have to add an auxiliary gutter to the 1st panel for the purpose of feeding thru those service conductors or splicing/tapping them so they could continue to the 2nd panel.

    Until someone can show me in a panelboards listing/labeling that the included gutter space of the panel is there for the purpose of passing thru conductors or making taps to extend conductors to other panelboards when those conductors do not terminate in that panelboard I'm staying on the side of the fence that says you cannot do so.

    IMO the space available in a panelboard is there for the purpose of doing whatever you need to do to conductors terminating in that panelboard.

    Now having given my opinion I have personally witnessed in more than one instance one set of service entrance conductors from a 320 meter base passing thru a service panel gutter space to a 2nd service panel mounted next to it. Passed inspection but I don't believe it is the intent of the code or addressed by UL or manufacturers labeling/listing to allow that type of installation.

    Edit: Came back to give an example to my understanding .... If I bring a set of service entrance conductors into a loadcenter used as service equipment in order to terminate them on the main breaker of that loadcenter and then I tap those service conductors. I then take the tapped set of service conductors into a raceway that goes to another service equipment panel mounted next to the 1st service equipment panel. This makes the 1st service equipment panel part of the raceway I'm using for service conductors. NEC 230.7 pretty much tells you that you cannot have other conductors such as branch circuit conductors or feeder conductors in a raceway that contains service conductors. The fact that by passing through service conductors via a tap/splice makes that service panel part of the raceway enclosing service conductors .. this places other conductors in the same raceway with the tapped service conductors. This coupled with the gutter space in that panel not intended for the purpose of splicing service conductors that are not terminating in that panel is the violation we have in this thread.

    In order to comply with the NEC you would need to add a gutter or tray or large junction box for the purpose of making the splice to the service entrance conductors then take one set of service entrance conductors in a separate raceway, nipple or whatever works for the added accessory equipment to each service panel.

    ....To further muddy the waters I have a video link to a Mike Holt presentation graphic that I totally disagree with that is directly related to this thread and subject. If you want me to post the link I'll do so and let the arguments begin.....

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 11-29-2010 at 09:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Two service panels

    [quote=Roger Frazee;152113]I have been involved with several interpretations of the code section that addresses this issue (I'm not telling what section that is...) . What I have come to learn from quite a bit of research is this ... panelboards do not come listed by UL or the manufacturer for the purpose of passing thru or splicing conductors that do not terminate on a switch or ocpd or fuse in that panel.This is regardless of any adequate space (gutter) that you might see available in the panelboard to pass thru or splice conductors that are entering and leaving the panelboard without terminating.


    Until someone can show me in a panelboards listing/labeling that the included gutter space of the panel is there for the purpose of passing thru conductors or making taps to extend conductors to other panelboards when those conductors do not terminate in that panelboard I'm staying on the side of the fence that says you cannot do so.

    IMO the space available in a panelboard is there for the purpose of doing whatever you need to do to conductors terminating in that panelboard.

    [quote]

    Roger-
    You are asking for the impossible.
    The definition of a panelboard according to the NEC is:
    Panelboard: A single panel or group of panel units designed for assembly in the form of a single panel, including buses, and automatic overcurrent devices, and equipped with with or without switches for the control of light,heat,or power circuits; Designed to be placed in a cabinet or cutout box placed in or against a wall, partition,or other support; aqccessible only from the front.

    So according to the NEC a panelboard is the "guts" only- NOT the enclosure or cover. So no a panelboard will not be listed for conductors to pass through it.

    Article 408.38 Enclosure. Panelboards shall be mounted in cabinets,cutout
    boxes,or enclosures designed for the purpose and shall be dead front.

    You want to read article 312 - Cabinets,cutout boxes, and meter socket enclosures.
    Pay close attention to Article 312.8
    Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices. Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be used as junction boxes auxilary gutters or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches or overcurrent devices, unless adequate space for this purpose is provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more then 40% of the cross sectional area of the space, and the conductors,splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more then 75% of the cross sectional area of that space.


  13. #13
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Roger-
    You are asking for the impossible.
    The definition of a panelboard according to the NEC is:
    Panelboard: A single panel or group of panel units designed for assembly in the form of a single panel, including buses, and automatic overcurrent devices, and equipped with with or without switches for the control of light,heat,or power circuits; Designed to be placed in a cabinet or cutout box placed in or against a wall, partition,or other support; aqccessible only from the front.

    So according to the NEC a panelboard is the "guts" only- NOT the enclosure or cover. So no a panelboard will not be listed for conductors to pass through it.

    Article 408.38 Enclosure. Panelboards shall be mounted in cabinets,cutout
    boxes,or enclosures designed for the purpose and shall be dead front.

    You want to read article 312 - Cabinets,cutout boxes, and meter socket enclosures.
    Pay close attention to Article 312.8
    Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices. Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be used as junction boxes auxilary gutters or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches or overcurrent devices, unless adequate space for this purpose is provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more then 40% of the cross sectional area of the space, and the conductors,splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more then 75% of the cross sectional area of that space.
    Hi Ken

    Yes ... you make several good points and very well may be correct in your analysis of the code. Your analysis being correct how the heck do you do the math ... Just joking.

    Let me explain where I get confused on this language of 312.8 2008 NEC. It starts off by saying the enclosure shall not be used for an auxiliary gutter, junction box or raceway for conductors feeding thru or tapping off to other switches and overcurrent devices. I take this part to mean conductors going to other enclosures. I take this to mean if the conductor does not terminate in that enclosure it cannot be used for that purpose.

    It's after that that I admit I may be on shaky ground. It then says unless adequate space is provided for this purpose. All too often I get hung up on the intent of the language and in this case it's the "for this purpose". I believe this means that the gutter space in the panelboard if adequate and purposed for splicing conductors or tapping them to go on to other enclosures, besides terminating in the panelboard they first enter, then you can do so.

    So the question to me is do we assume that the gutter space in a panelboard enclosure is purposed for this splicing and tapping of conductors that do not terminate in that panelboard. It seems clear that the gutter space is purposed for anything compliant that you need to do to conductors terminating in it. But why would the CMP make a point to say the enclosure must have space purposed for conductors passing thru or being tapped/spliced to leave the panel enclosure without terminating?

    My next problem is NEC 230.7 how do you get around that once you make the enclosure, in which the panelboard is mounted, part of the raceway for service conductors? You now have feeders and branch circuits in a raceway space that contains service conductors that do not terminate in that enclosure. The only way I know to get other conductors to be compliant in the same 'space' as service conductors when they do not terminate together in the same enclosure is .. for example .. a gutter or tray with a barrier divider that separates the service conductors from the 'other conductors'.

    Also the use of the term "conductors" in the 312.8 language is pretty darn broad. A service conductor is not just any ole conductor ... and has a whole lot of restrictions imposed on its proper installation.

    But I do understand what your saying and admit that I am trying to understand this 'purposed for' for language. And by that I mean I've never seen a panelboard enclosure that contains labeling or listings that specifically states that the gutter space may be used to tap or splice "Service Conductors" to pass thru the enclosure.

    Regardless of the consensus we reach in this discussion I just do not see how we get around 230.7 if these so called "conductors" being spiced or tapped or passing thru are service conductors.

    I'm going to wait for the other members replies (yours too) and will keep an open mind till I am able to see whether I am right or wrong.


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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Roger -
    Very good explanation of your point !

    I will address your comments about service conductors.

    My next problem is NEC 230.7 how do you get around that once you make the enclosure, in which the panelboard is mounted, part of the raceway for service conductors? You now have feeders and branch circuits in a raceway space that contains service conductors that do not terminate in that enclosure. The only way I know to get other conductors to be compliant in the same 'space' as service conductors when they do not terminate together in the same enclosure is .. for example .. a gutter or tray with a barrier divider that separates the service conductors from the 'other conductors'.
    When it comes to Service Conductors, they shall be treated just as thAT, Service Conductors.
    In other words you Can Not make a panel board enclosure a raceway for service conductors. The only service conductors allowed in a panelboard enclosure are those that terminate in to that panelboard.
    Seeing how those service conductors terminate on that panelboard the panelboard enclosure is not considered a raceway,but rather a cabinet.

    So according to this information when you bring a set of service conductors into a panelboard enclosure and they terminate on that panelboard it is considered a panelboard enclosure for the service conductors. Now lets say you were to bring in 2 sets of service conductors to that panelboard enclosure, terminate 1 set on the panelboard and pass the second set out to another panelboard . Then you are using the panelboard enclosure as a raceway and it is illegal according to article 230.7. The same goes if you were to bring in 1 set of service conductors and make a tap to go to another panelboard, you are using the enclosure as a raceway and it's illegal.

    I understand your thoughts, how can one run branch circuits through a panelboard enclosure ,claiming its ok as it meets the requirements of 312.8, but at the same time it could be read as a violation of article 230.7.

    Well you have found one of the NEC's "catch 22" Different Code Making Panels ( CMP) are involved in this issue.

    CMP 4 - handles services
    CMP 9 handles Panelboards & Cabinets
    CMP 8 handles Raceways

    Its too late for the 2011 NEC, but there is still time to write in for a change in the 2014 NEC Maybe it would be worth the effort to write for a change so the different articles all line up on this issue


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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    I have been involved with several interpretations of the code section that addresses this issue (I'm not telling what section that is...) . What I have come to learn from quite a bit of research is this ... panelboards do not come listed by UL or the manufacturer for the purpose of passing thru or splicing conductors that do not terminate on a switch or ocpd or fuse in that panel.This is regardless of any adequate space (gutter) that you might see available in the panelboard to pass thru or splice conductors that are entering and leaving the panelboard without terminating.

    In order to pass thru service conductors or splice them so they could go on to a 2nd different panel and terminate in that panel you would have to add an auxiliary gutter to the 1st panel for the purpose of feeding thru those service conductors or splicing/tapping them so they could continue to the 2nd panel.

    Until someone can show me in a panelboards listing/labeling that the included gutter space of the panel is there for the purpose of passing thru conductors or making taps to extend conductors to other panelboards when those conductors do not terminate in that panelboard I'm staying on the side of the fence that says you cannot do so.

    IMO the space available in a panelboard is there for the purpose of doing whatever you need to do to conductors terminating in that panelboard.
    Roger is precisely and exactly correct.

    That is the same exact information I got from talking with several UL Senior Engineers over the years.

    Quote Originally Posted by ken horak View Post
    Roger-
    You are asking for the impossible.
    The definition of a panelboard according to the NEC is:
    Panelboard: A single panel or group of panel units designed for assembly in the form of a single panel, including buses, and automatic overcurrent devices, and equipped with with or without switches for the control of light,heat,or power circuits; Designed to be placed in a cabinet or cutout box placed in or against a wall, partition,or other support; aqccessible only from the front.

    So according to the NEC a panelboard is the "guts" only- NOT the enclosure or cover. So no a panelboard will not be listed for conductors to pass through it.
    Roger, and I, and you in your usual reference to "panel" and "panelboard" are referring to 'the panelboard and its enclosure'.

    Bold, underlining and red are mine in your quote below.
    You want to read article 312 - Cabinets,cutout boxes, and meter socket enclosures.
    Pay close attention to Article 312.8
    Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices. Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be used as junction boxes auxilary gutters or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches or overcurrent devices, unless adequate space for this purpose is provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more then 40% of the cross sectional area of the space, and the conductors,splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more then 75% of the cross sectional area of that space.
    As Roger stated, there is NO "space for this purpose" provided for in the enclosures in which panelboards are mounted.

    The last sentence in the above simply states: a) conductors shall not fill the wiring space more than 40%; AND b) conductors AND splices AND taps shall not fill the wiring space more than 75% - splices AND taps WHICH terminate within the panelboard enclosure as splices and taps which do not terminate in the panelboard enclosure are not allowed as no space for that purpose is provided.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Well fellow tradesmen/members looks like we have managed to develop another of our legendary discussions .. which is why I like this forum ...

    Lets see if we can further our knowledge by viewing this video from Mike Holt... I disagree with this video .. in that first panel we have service conductors that do not terminate but pass thru that service equipment enclosure . IMO this is a raceway system containing service conductors .. due to that fact .. those feeders cannot be present along with those service conductors that pass thru. Those feeder conductors would be fine if only one set of service conductors entered that enclosure and terminated in that enclosure. The second set in my opinion violates 312.8 and 230.7.

    Article 312.8 Used for Raceway and Splices


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    Default Re: Two service panels

    This is the 4th time I've tried to post this and attach the files, the computer keeps locking up and I had to reboot, so ... here goes another try, but this time I will post the post and then go back and add the files (if I can) ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Lets see if we can further our knowledge by viewing this video from Mike Holt... I disagree with this video ...
    UL also disagrees with that video (see attached - if I can attach them).

    in that first panel we have service conductors that do not terminate but pass thru that service equipment enclosure . IMO this is a raceway system containing service conductors .. due to that fact .. those feeders cannot be present along with those service conductors that pass thru. Those feeder conductors would be fine if only one set of service conductors entered that enclosure and terminated in that enclosure. The second set in my opinion violates 312.8 and 230.7.
    Exactly what I was referring to in my first post above (post #5):
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    In addition to everything else stated in the posts above, that first service equipment enclosure is being used as a junction box and as a raceway feeding the service entrance conductors through it to the other service equipment enclosure - and this is not allowed (along with all the other things stated in the posts above which are not allowed either).

    Another things is that there are conductors which are not service entrance conductors in with the service entrances conductors feeding through the first service equipment to the second service equipment, and the only time the two are allowed to be in the same enclosure is when they terminate in that same enclosure.


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Jerry
    I hope you have success in getting the files posted ... I understand your frustration.

    Actually I meant to mention that my explanation was the situation you had described earlier. Got distracted by fire engine going down my street and forgot to post it.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    I'll have to try to post them tomorrow, for some reason it is not allowing me to upload pdf files which are well within the allowable limits posted for pdf files.

    I have one of the files in a jpg, but it is well above the allowable limit for jpgs, so it will not accept that either (but I thought I would try it anyway because of the other problem).

    One file is a letter from UL specifically showing what Mike Holt is showing in that video and UL is specifically stating that is not allowed.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Lets see if we can further our knowledge by viewing this video from Mike Holt... I disagree with this video .. in that first panel we have service conductors that do not terminate but pass thru that service equipment enclosure . IMO this is a raceway system containing service conductors .. due to that fact .. those feeders cannot be present along with those service conductors that pass thru. Those feeder conductors would be fine if only one set of service conductors entered that enclosure and terminated in that enclosure. The second set in my opinion violates 312.8 and 230.7.

    Article 312.8 Used for Raceway and Splices
    Looking at the opening graphic I see two sets of feeder conductors leaving a service disconnect. Each feeder then has its own disconnect. The service conductors are only in the first disconnect.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    The first enclosure is the meter base not a service disconnect. It is the same set up that Mike says he has on his home. If you watch the video the first enclosure is the meter.


  22. #22
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Roger,

    Success!

    (Plus a couple of more in the sequence which lead to the UL letter with the drawings.)

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  23. #23
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Jerry

    Thank you very much for the effort to get those pdf's posted. I now have them in my files if that is ok. It is a relief to know that I am now able to finally come to a positive conclusion to the intent of "unless adequate space for this purpose is provided" .

    I think ECM would call 312.8 a "code quandrie" ...


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Sooooooooooo..........................

    After all this

    CH makes something called a riser panel that is UL listed and approved for at least the "B" and "C" configurations shown in Jerry's drawings. (look in the "BR" section of their catalog, page 65)

    If you check the specs on these panels you will find that they are the same physical size as equivalent panels for the same number of circuits. The only difference is the buss bar assembly is offset to one side to allow for multiple cable to pass straight through as well as any needed splices. Somebody just pointed to existing space and said "yep, there it is - that space is provided". Sorta like that "let there be light" thing.

    I realize this isn't a "stock" panel but it really doesn't have any extra cubic inches added for the feed through purposes. This pretty much blasts all the arguments about heating and such being an issue, but also puts the flat statement by UL that "nothing is approved" for the use in question. Remember, these are the same folks who brought you "Touch & 'Splode" devices for aluminum wire and FPE "Instant Arson Kits".


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    CH makes something called a riser panel that is UL listed and approved for at least the "B" and "C" configurations shown in Jerry's drawings. (look in the "BR" section of their catalog, page 65)

    If you would, provide a link to that catalog, I can't find it on the web.

    Thanks,

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  26. #26
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    The attached images are typical of riser panels where the panelboard is offset in the enclosure to provide space for riser feeders to pass thru vertically to the next floor above via a chase or riser gutter. Common around here in high rise apartment construction. You are also allowed to splice/tap those feeders in that space to terminate to the panel mains lugs.

    The key here is the rectangular space on the right side of the enclosure top to bottom is the provided space for the purpose of pass thru and taps or splices of the feeders (not service conductors). Horizontal pass thru is not allowed in these panels even though it appears there is space above the mains. That space is bending space and space for conductors terminating in the panel. I'm trying to find the technical documentation but that may not be easy without contacting the manufacturer tech services.





  27. #27
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    The attached images are typical of riser panels where the panelboard is offset in the enclosure to provide space for riser feeders to pass thru vertically to the next floor above via a chase or riser gutter. Common around here in high rise apartment construction. You are also allowed to splice/tap those feeders in that space to terminate to the panel mains lugs.

    I'm trying to find the technical documentation but that may not be easy without contacting the manufacturer tech services.

    That is what I am looking for, the technical information regarding installation limitations.

    So, those feeders go to/come from DIFFERENT apartments?

    I can see some rather important firestopping concerns with that, and with being able to energize (or tap off from) another set of feeders other than which the apartment is being supplied.

    That raises lots of concerns and red flags without being able to read something where the manufacturer says specifically that 'you can do this' or (more likely in my mind) 'you can do this IF you do this, and this, and this, and this'

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    Sooooooooooo..........................

    After all this

    CH makes something called a riser panel that is UL listed and approved for at least the "B" and "C" configurations shown in Jerry's drawings. (look in the "BR" section of their catalog, page 65)

    Bill,

    First, thank you for the link to that panel specification sheet.

    Second, , that panel would not be allowed to be installed as shown in Figure A, B, C, or D, in the letter I posted.

    This panel is installed as shown in Roger's post.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    Yes those feeders go on to other panels in other rooms or apartments .... Most of the installations I was around had typical load centers and an auxillary gutter attached to the side of the load center where all the splices were made. My experience is very limited with riser panels but that is how I remember them when an auxiliary gutter was not present..

    Still not having any luck on the manufacturer websites getting documentation on riser panels that is of any use.

    Last edited by Roger Frazee; 12-02-2010 at 08:39 PM.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Two service panels

    When I responded I was thinking only about feeders running through the panel and being tapped, and not about the horizontal versus vertical installation of them. The gist of the UL letter seemed to be that no panels were approved to have feeders run through them, hence my comments. I'll retract half my UL animosity on this thread and apply it on another - they still have plenty of issues

    There are probably more types of issues with the approved panels installed as shown than with the stuff in the drawings, but that's not the issue here.


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