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  1. #1
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    Default Basic Portland OR code Q's

    Basic code questions.

    Hello I have a few basic code questions for Portland Oregon.

    This house was built in 1907 and has been updated with two 100 amp panels with one almost empty.
    I am wiring the kitchen receptacles and lights with all new HR's consisting of two kitchen 20 amp GFCI circuits, 20 amp HR for micro, 20 amp HR for disposal, 15 amp lighting HR. Here are my questions.

    1) Can I stack and staple 14/2 on top of 12/2 OR 12/2 on 12/2? 14/3 on 12/2.

    2) Is it ok to run my gas range 12/2 receptacle off of my kitchen receptacles? As of now I have one receptacle (gfci) line side to a second receptacle (my gas range receptacle) then out to an island recep and continues to a third.

    3) I have my second GFCI recep with the (HR) load side pigtailed. One side for the load side of the GFCI the other for the fridge then the line out to other receps. Is this correct or do I need to go to the fridge first then to the GFCI load side.

    4) I have a dedicated 15 amp circuit for the kitchen lighting which has a total of 12 cans @ 65 watts max I know the load is fine but my question is can I run an exterior receptacle off of that same light circuit. (GFCI of course in a bubble box)

    Thanks you very much, Josh

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Basic Portland OR code Q's

    1- don't really know what that means but doesn't sound good. Since we don't allow romex, don't know or care about install req
    2- even though they typically don't draw much power, major appliances (stove) should be on their own breaker
    3- not even close to correct, fridge on its own breaker and not on a GFCI
    4- NO, exterior receptacles on their own breaker not tied to your kitchen lights
    Based on your questions you are probably a DIY/weekend warrior. Additionally you don't sound like you really know what you are doing.
    Electricity can not only be deadly during installation but also afterwards. The hazard of arcing and fire from improper connections is a real possibility. I am doubtful that you would know how to properly make connections, grounds and many other critical factors.
    PLEASE hire an electrician. If not for yourself, for your family who may be ignorant of the danger you pose.

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  3. #3

    Default Re: Basic Portland OR code Q's

    1) Can I stack and staple 14/2 on top of 12/2 OR 12/2 on 12/2? 14/3 on 12/2.
    Depends on what fastener you use and what it is rated for. I believe most staples are allowed to secure two cables.

    2) Is it ok to run my gas range 12/2 receptacle off of my kitchen receptacles? As of now I have one receptacle (gfci) line side to a second receptacle (my gas range receptacle) then out to an island recep and continues to a third.

    Yes

    3) I have my second GFCI recep with the (HR) load side pigtailed. One side for the load side of the GFCI the other for the fridge then the line out to other receps. Is this correct or do I need to go to the fridge first then to the GFCI load side.

    The fridge receptacle is not required to be on a dedicated circuit, and can be run off of one of the small appliance circuits.
    The fridge receptacle can be GFCI protected, and should not nuisance trip with a newer fridge. If it does, there is a problem with the fridge.

    As Markus said-- please hire an electrician for you own safety, and for the safety of future occupants.

    Last edited by Brandon Whitmore; 12-05-2010 at 12:30 AM. Reason: Spelling

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    Default Re: Basic Portland OR code Q's

    These are questions you should be posing to your AHJ, as you draw up your PLANS to submit a PERMIT APPLICATION for this work!

    BTW lighting is CONTINUOUS or demand load 12 x 65W = 780 which already exceeds half of the 1440 VA permitted in a 15A lighting/combination circuit. Seems stranger still that you'd only use high hats/cans to light a kitchen - you might consider speaking to a kitchen designer, or a lighting specialist. That's a lot of wasted light and generated heat which doesn't effectively light the working areas and casts a lot of shadows. (plus you'd probably have dimmers or such and that's more limitations).

    That outside receptacle should be 20A supplied, allowing to connect a device that will work up to 1920 VA safely, or if a 15A face GFCI receptacle - safely run a full 1500-1800 Watt device. Why would you risk your kitchen lights flickering if someone was running a plug-in weed wacker or snow shovel, leaf blower, or a "boom box" outside?

    The rating plate on your refrigerator will determine IF it will require a dedicated circuit and/or be unwise to share with other appliances. We have no idea the AGE of your case-goods (larger appliances). Yes, some of them DO work electricity for long periods, and some have high watt/amp requirements upon start up.

    At the very least you should be speaking with your local department and familiarizing yourself with what the requirements are. This is not a DIY site. Home Inspectors do not design plans as a general rule (unless their doing work for themselves ).

    It does, however seem strange that when presented with the opportunity to rewire and with nearly unlimited branch circuit capacity, why one would propose mixing up the wiring paths as you have suggested. Am also curious why a dedicated 20 amp circuit for disposal, planning on other than one listed for household use? (high HP?).

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 12-04-2010 at 04:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Basic Portland OR code Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Gourley View Post
    Hello I have a few basic code questions for Portland Oregon.
    I don't know about the specific code adoption in Portland, check with your local electrical inspector for details. Here are some general answers to your questions.

    1) Can I stack and staple 14/2 on top of 12/2 OR 12/2 on 12/2? 14/3 on 12/2.
    Assuming Romex/NM cable is allowed, use a Romex standoff product. It's a plastic clip that nails to the studs and has three or four channels to keep wires separate. Stak-It is one brand that comes to mind.

    2) Is it ok to run my gas range 12/2 receptacle off of my kitchen receptacles? As of now I have one receptacle (gfci) line side to a second receptacle (my gas range receptacle) then out to an island recep and continues to a third.
    The NEC permits this for powering the clock on a gas range, but verify with your local inspector. They have ultimate say on the matter.

    3) I have my second GFCI recep with the (HR) load side pigtailed. One side for the load side of the GFCI the other for the fridge then the line out to other receps. Is this correct or do I need to go to the fridge first then to the GFCI load side.
    The refrigerator can be on one of the two small appliances branch circuits or a separate circuit can be provided for it. It it not required to be GFCI protected (unless it is within 6' of a sink) but it's not prohibited either, so there is no problem wiring it to the load side of the GFCI receptacle.

    4) I have a dedicated 15 amp circuit for the kitchen lighting which has a total of 12 cans @ 65 watts max I know the load is fine but my question is can I run an exterior receptacle off of that same light circuit. (GFCI of course in a bubble box)
    Why do this rather than run a new circuit for your exterior receptacles?


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    Default Re: Basic Portland OR code Q's

    The refrigerator does not need GFI protection even if within 6' of the sink. There is no 6' GFI rule. I would have hoped that continuing ed classes would have covered this.

    The code requires GFI protection for the countertop receptacles. Since a receptacle behind the refrigerator does not serve the countertop no GFI is needed.


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    Default Re: Basic Portland OR code Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    ...There is no 6' GFI rule...
    Not for kitchens, but there is 2006 IRC E3802.7, for Laundry, utility and bar sink receptacles. Maybe that's why people keep citing it.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
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    Default Re: Basic Portland OR code Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    The refrigerator does not need GFI protection even if within 6' of the sink. There is no 6' GFI rule. I would have hoped that continuing ed classes would have covered this.

    The code requires GFI protection for the countertop receptacles. Since a receptacle behind the refrigerator does not serve the countertop no GFI is needed.
    Jim is correct - The refrigerator receptacle is not intened to serve the kitchen counter top.
    The key part of that phrase is : Not intended to serve the counter top.

    Going by the rules of NEC 210.8(A)(6) we are required to provide GFCI protected receptacles where they are installed to serve the counter top.



    To expand on the 6' from the sink rule confusion;

    In a Dwelling NEC article 210.8(A)(7) tells us that any receptacle within 6' of a Laundry ,Utility, and Wet Bar sinks require GFCI protection

    In Other Than Dwelling Units Nec article 210.8 (B)(5) Tells us that any receptacle within 6' of a sink GFCI protection is required.


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    Default Re: Basic Portland OR code Q's

    Thanks, Ken and John. I was focusing on the OP's kitchen question. I can see where some could cross the two requirements.


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    Default Re: Basic Portland OR code Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    The refrigerator does not need GFI protection even if within 6' of the sink. There is no 6' GFI rule. I would have hoped that continuing ed classes would have covered this.

    The code requires GFI protection for the countertop receptacles. Since a receptacle behind the refrigerator does not serve the countertop no GFI is needed.
    Sorry, I wasn't specific.

    It depends on where the receptacle for the refrigerator is. Usually these are behind the refrigerator, but since the refrigerator can be supplied by one of the two small appliance branch circuits serving the countertop or a separate circuit, there is no requirement that said receptacle be behind the refrigerator or serving a countertop. And depending on the placement of that receptacle (and don't tell me you haven't seen some "creative" electrical installations) it might require GFCI protection.

    Why might you want it on a GFCI anyway? Well, stuff happens, including ground faults in your refrigerator. Why someone would opt to keep their ground-faulting appliance rather than protect the homeowner with a GFCI receptacle is beyond me.


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    Default Re: Basic Portland OR code Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port
    ...There is no 6' GFI rule...
    Yes there is in OREGON.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port
    The refrigerator does not need GFI protection even if within 6' of the sink. There is no 6' GFI rule. I would have hoped that continuing ed classes would have covered this.

    The code requires GFI protection for the countertop receptacles. Since a receptacle behind the refrigerator does not serve the countertop no GFI is needed.
    That is not necessarily true, IN OREGON. Further, I don't see where the OP stated the receptacle for the refrigerator was going to be installed BEHIND the refrigerator, or for that matter in a space dedicated to the refrigerator, or that it was to be a simplex (single) receptacle (not single outlet).


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port
    ... I was focusing on the OP's kitchen question. I can see where some could cross the two requirements.
    It seems you haven't consulted the Oregon Codes, or if you have, it is YOU who have missed a requirement or two.

    I really STRONGLY DISLIKE when contributors, such as what is quoted above, start pontificating on what an unammended national code edition says or does not say when an original poster from a specific location asks a specific regional code application question!

    THE OP had titled the post "Basic Portland OR CODE Q's" - This does more than imply the questions have to do with OREGON CODE, and perhaps even more specifically to those within the jurisdictional limits of the PORTLAND AHJ!.

    Mr. Port, you are indeed wrong regards to Portland, OR, and have NOT had the OP's question(s) in mind when pontificating. You have apparently NOT the grasp of the OREGON ELECTRICAL SPECIALTY CODE (OESC) that you THINK you do.

    Please STOP knocking the continuing education, or the intitial education, the INTELLECT, or the ability of OTHER contributors on this and other strings to READ, UNDERSTAND, and SPECIFICALLY ADDRESS, and to not OVERLOOK, AS YOU HAVE, nor address SPECIFICALLY the circumstances presented in a particular circumstance.

    The FACT that the unammended NFPA 70 is RARELY adopted by ANY jurisdiction, and is not CODE in and of itself, merely by having been published by NFPA, it must be adopted by a particular jurisdiction to be "CODE". The juridiction isn't even Named in NFPA 70 - and therefore is most always at least minimally ammended when adopted.

    What the unammended National Electrical Code has to say on the subject is MOOT, as the OP asked specific questions pertaining to his specific JURISDICTION - and what the Oregon Codes say to the subject is NOT the same as what the unammended 2008 NEC says on the subject.

    "Corn Walker" actually (perhaps accidentially) had it RIGHT regarding THERE BEING A SIX FOOT RULE IN OREGON FOR EVEN A KITCHEN SINK - although not completely right regarding the exceptions {single receptacle exception for dedicated space to a not easily moved appliance, ex. to 210.8(A)(7)- and for receptacles for alarms/systems general OR ex. to 210.8(A)}.

    OREGON DOES HAVE A GFCI protection of receptacles within SIX FOOT of SINK edges "RULE" THAT INCLUDES KITCHEN SINKS - SINKS OF ALL KINDS in residential occupancies. However it also has an exception for SINGLE RECEPTACLES in dedicated spaces which serve not-oft moved appliances, and a general GFCI protection exception for receptacles serving alarms.

    Next the 2008 Oregon Residential Specialty Code (ORSC) does not have the chapters or section that John Arnold referenced - it defers all plumbing and electrical chapter designations of the AMMENDED IRC incorporated therein to its own Plumbing and Electrical Codes, and has a special appendix in its structural code for low-rise apartments.

    Next Oregon's Electrical Code, although based on the 2008 NEC, HAS OREGON AMMENDMENTS, which include numerous ones to Article 210, (and btw, and include ammendments to 334).

    There really is no excuse for J.A., K.H., and J.P. to have even begun such pontificating, contrary to what "Corn Walker" posted regarding a refrigerator receptacle in proximity to a sink, without at LEAST CHECKING the OESC, as Oregon's Codes are FREELY ACCESSIBLE as they are published on the WEB.

    (if link below still won't work and/or display correctly... go to http colon slash slash www dot cbs dot state dot or dot us slash bcd slash programs slash codes_in_oregon.html

    Last time trying to insert clickable link: </TITLE> <META http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html><link rel="stylesheet" href="wrapper/agency_pinot_v3.css" type="text/css"> <link rel="stylesheet" href="../wrapper/oregonGov_v3.css" type="text/css"> <link rel="stylesheet" href="../wrapper/


    "Portland" can only further restrict, which, frankly needs to be verified with the LOCAL AHJ office - and since the Planning review WILL be charged @ at least more than $60/hr to do so - he (the OP) was already directed to the authoritative source for ALL such questions AND further directed to seek the QUALIFED services of a locally licensed electrical contractor/electrician, and referred to consider the Oregon energy code restrictions, and to consider consult with a kitchen and/or lighting design specialist.

    Here goes:

    NFPA 70-2008, National Electrical Code (NEC), 2008 Edition, effective April 1, 2008, subject to the amendments adopted in OAR 918-305-0105 to 918-305-0320. See Table 1-E;

    The electrical code requirements for residential dwellings are adopted under the Oregon Residential Specialty Code in OAR chapter 918, division 480.

    Building Codes Division_918_305

    Ammendments to the NEC

    918-305-0130 Oregon Administrative Rules

    Amend Article 210 -- Branch Circuits
    The following provisions of Articles 210 through 225 are amended:
    (1) Section 210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. Amended as follows:
    -(a) Amend 210.8(A) by inserting the following exception: "Exception: A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection."
    --(A) Amend Section 210.8(A) by inserting the following: "FPN: See 760.41(B) and 760.121(B) for power supply requirements for fire alarm systems."
    -(b) Amend 210.8(A)(2) by inserting the following:
    --(A) "Exception No. 1 to (2): A single receptacle for each appliance within a dedicated space that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another, that is cord-and-plug connected, and the receptacle is labeled as "not GFCI protected.'"
    --(B) "Exception No. 2 to (2): Receptacle ground fault protection shall not be required for a dedicated branch circuit serving a single receptacle for sewage or sump pumps."
    --(C) "Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(2) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G)."
    -(c) Amend 210.8(A)(4) by inserting the following: "Exception to (4): Receptacle ground fault protection shall not be required for a dedicated branch circuit serving a single receptacle for sewage or sump pumps."
    -(d) Delete the Fine Print Note and exception to 210.8(A)(5) and replace exception with the following:
    --(A) "Exception No. 1 to (5): A single receptacle for each appliance within a dedicated space that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another, that is cord-and-plug connected, and the receptacle is labeled as 'not GFCI protected.'"
    --(B) "Exception No 2 to (5): Receptacle ground fault protection shall not be required for a dedicated branch circuit serving a single receptacle for sewage or sump pumps."
    -(e) Amend Section 210.8(A)(7) by inserting:
    --(A) "or other sinks" after the clause "laundry utility and wet bar sinks" in the first sentence of 210.8(A)(7).
    --(B) "Exception to (7): A single receptacle for each appliance within a dedicated space that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another, that is cord-and-plug connected, and the receptacle is labeled as 'not GFCI protected.'"
    .
    (2) Section 210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection. Amended as follows:
    -(a) Amend Section 210.12(B) to read: "(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit."
    -(b) Amend Section 210.12(B) by adding the following: "Exception No. 3: Electrical outlets dedicated for the use of single station smoke alarms (interconnected or not), nurse call, or medical equipment shall not be required to have AFCI protection."
    (3) Section 210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. Amended as follows:
    -(a) Amend Section 210.52 by adding: "(I) Alcoves. In dwelling units, alcoves shall have at least one receptacle installed. These outlets shall be in addition to the required hall outlets. As used in this subsection an Alcove is an area extending from, and returning to, the common wall of hallways, foyers, entries, and landings with a depth of not less than 2 ft. or more and a length of not less than 3 ft."
    -(b) Amend Figure 210.52(C)(1) Determination of Area Behind a Range, or Counter-Mounted Cooking Unit or Sink. Amend figure to read: "Space exempt from the wall line if X < 900mm (36 in.)."

    Therefore in OREGON, the Oregon Electrical Specialty Code would read as follows at 210.8(A) (According to the Oregon Administrative Rules, Oregon State Archives, as of November 15, 2010 (underlining insertions - strike-out didn't work for deletions so removed them, RED/BOLD highlighting is for emphasis as is ENLARGED type face):

    210.8(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-Ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

    Exception: A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.




    FPN: See 760.41(B) and 760.121(B) for power supply requirements for fire alarm systems.
    -(1) Bathrooms

    -(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use

    --Exception No. 1 to (2): A single receptacle for each appliance within a dedicated space that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another, that is cord-and-plug connected, and the receptacle is labeled as "not GFCI protected."

    --Exception No. 2 to (2): Receptacle ground fault protection shall not be required for a dedicated branch circuit serving a single receptacle for sewage or sump pumps

    -Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(2) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G).

    -(3) Outdoors

    --Exception to (3): Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing quipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with 426.28.

    -(4) Crawl spaces -- at or below grade level

    --Exception to (4): Receptacle ground fault protection shall not be required for a dedicated branch circuit serving a single receptacle for sewage or sump pumps."

    -(5) Unfinished basements -- for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habital rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like

    --Exception No. 1 to (5): A single receptacle for each appliance within a dedicated space that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another, that is cord-and-plug connected, and the receptacle is labeled as: "not GFCI protected."

    --Exception No 2 to (5): Receptacle ground fault protection shall not be required for a dedicated branch circuit serving a single receptacle for sewage or sump pumps.

    -(6) Kitchens -- where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces

    -(7) Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks, or other sinks -- where the receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink.

    --Exception to (7): A single receptacle for each appliance within a dedicated spacethat, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another, that is cord-and-plug connected, and the receptacle is labeled as "not GFCI protected."


    -(8) Boathouses

    There is NO E3802.7 or for that matter a chapter 38 in the Oregon residential code.




    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 12-05-2010 at 01:11 PM. Reason: tried twice now to fix link as displays! typed out web address in "code" to accomplish/and strike-out font doesn't work so deleted language ammended to be struck in OR from 08 NEC.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Basic Portland OR code Q's

    Short version of my most recent post above:

    Oregon's Electrical Code, although based on the 2008 NEC, HAS OREGON AMMENDMENTS, which include numerous ones to Article 210, (and btw, and include ammendments to 334). The OP has stated location, and questions pertaining to Portland, OR(egon).


    210.8(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-Ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

    Exception: A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection.

    FPN: See 760.41(B) and 760.121(B) for power supply requirements for fire alarm systems

    -(1) Bathrooms

    -(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use

    --Exception No. 1 to (2): A single receptacle for each appliance within a dedicated space that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another, that is cord-and-plug connected, and the receptacle is labeled as "not GFCI protected."

    --Exception No. 2 to (2): Receptacle ground fault protection shall not be required for a dedicated branch circuit serving a single receptacle for sewage or sump pumps

    -Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(2) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G).

    -(3) Outdoors

    --Exception to (3): Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing quipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with 426.28.

    -(4) Crawl spaces -- at or below grade level

    --Exception to (4): Receptacle ground fault protection shall not be required for a dedicated branch circuit serving a single receptacle for sewage or sump pumps

    -(5) Unfinished basements -- for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habital rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like

    --Exception No. 1 to (5): A single receptacle for each appliance within a dedicated space that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another, that is cord-and-plug connected, and the receptacle is labeled as: "not GFCI protected."

    --Exception No 2 to (5): Receptacle ground fault protection shall not be required for a dedicated branch circuit serving a single receptacle for sewage or sump pumps.

    -(6) Kitchens -- where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces

    -(7) Laundry, utility, and wet bar sinks, or other sinks -- where the receptacles are installed within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the sink.

    --Exception to (7): A single receptacle for each appliance within a dedicated spacethat, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another, that is cord-and-plug connected, and the receptacle is labeled as "not GFCI protected."

    -(8) Boathouses

    Bottom line: 210.8(A)(7) reads differently in the OREGON Electrical Specality Code (OESC) than it does in the unammended 2008 NEC, and (OESC) DOES have a six-foot residential sink rule for GFCI protection, with exception(s) that may or may not apply in a particular circumstance or installation, and the Oregon Residential Code refers to the Oregon Electrical Code.


  13. #13
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    Default Re: Basic Portland OR code Q's

    Hey HG could you please copy and paste all the Oregon codes please

    I was thinking of moving to Oregon and don't have a copy of all their codes. I would like to create my own book....if it is not to much trouble

    Oh wait. I forgot. The Governing bodies out there are way to liberal and I forgot that I did not want to move out there. Please forget the whole copy and paste thing

    Just kidding HG


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Basic Portland OR code Q's

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    Hey HG could you please copy and paste all the Oregon codes please

    I was thinking of moving to Oregon and don't have a copy of all their codes. I would like to create my own book....if it is not to much trouble

    Oh wait. I forgot. The Governing bodies out there are way to liberal and I forgot that I did not want to move out there. Please forget the whole copy and paste thing

    Just kidding HG
    So much for the object lessons on "virtual" and figurative "foot in mouth", applying "code" ammendment language specific to locale, and keeping politics and religion off the topic areas of the board, and/or professional editorialism, or board discussion on-topic!

    Speaking of mouths...I know you're familiar with "one can lead a horse to water, but cannot make it drink"; however, are you aware that "he who leads a horse's ass to water is responsible for the fouling of it"? Sure you know you can learn quite a bit about the age, care history, and health by looking in a horse's mouth, not so much so looking up the wrong end.


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