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  1. #1
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    Default Outlet Required?

    To the right of the range? Or, is it only if it's over 2' that it would be? (it's only about 1')

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    To the right of the range? Or, is it only if it's over 2' that it would be? (it's only about 1')
    Matt, I don't know about code, but I would think it irresponsible to encourage plugging in an appliance with that little clearance to the range top.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Under the NEC any countertop 12" or more in width would require a receptacle.


  4. #4
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    What Jim said

    But seriously, even if the counter is less than a foot why would one not want a receptacle there. If not they will do something wild and crazy like run one across the stop top.


  5. #5
    chris mcintyre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post

    But seriously, even if the counter is less than a foot why would one not want a receptacle there.

    Just playing devil's advocate here, but wouldn't a receptacle over a 6" counter in the corner encourage someone to set a coffee pot or toaster there when there is not enough room?


  6. #6
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Quote Originally Posted by chris mcintyre View Post
    Just playing devil's advocate here, but wouldn't a receptacle over a 6" counter in the corner encourage someone to set a coffee pot or toaster there when there is not enough room?
    That was my thought Chris. Not only will the plastic sided toaster be too close to the burner, the cord will flop on to the cook top and electrify the range after the cord melts. Code or no code, I would not write this one up.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Need a receptacle for that mixer wand for those soups gravies and sauces. Countertop 12"W+ requires receptacle and even an island or penninsula with countertop area 12"x24" deep requires one. No exception that fits, orphaned countertop requires it. Seems they used 6x6 tiles on the back splash, receptacle on the other side looks a bit far from the range but still within 24". Crappy tile lay-out/planning. Looks DIY renno sans planning. Wonder if there is a burried box behind those new counters/cabinets and tile.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 12-08-2010 at 07:05 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    That was my thought Chris. Not only will the plastic sided toaster be too close to the burner, the cord will flop on to the cook top and electrify the range after the cord melts. Code or no code, I would not write this one up.

    I agree whole heartily but in the reference I mentioned I have seen folks draping cords behind the stoves and even draped across the back side of the stop top itself. I would not write it up but I would rather see one there than the other scenario. Besides not everyone is brain dead and places the plastic sided taoster against a boiling pot with the flames rolling up the side.....would you? I wouldn't and I am brain dead....I mean...getting older


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Get with it, plastic sided toasters?

    There is more than one kind of toaster style, sheesh.

    Hand held mixers for smashed potatoes, etc.

    An extension cord is more of a hazard. Small appliances are required to have short cords and break-away cords for some of them.

    The pantry or refrigerator panel return is more a "hazard" visa-vis the range top than a small appliance plugged into the required receptacle for the orphaned countertop.


  10. #10
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Get with it, plastic sided toasters?

    There is more than one kind of toaster style, sheesh.

    Hand held mixers for smashed potatoes, etc.

    An extension cord is more of a hazard. Small appliances are required to have short cords and break-away cords for some of them.

    The pantry or refrigerator panel return is more a "hazard" visa-vis the range top than a small appliance plugged into the required receptacle for the orphaned countertop.
    Your right H.G., What was I thinking? The vibration of the refrigerator would rub right through the insulation of a cord in no time!

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    I didn't/wouldn't write it up... I was more just asking for my own clarification on the rule. The arguments on both sides have some validity. I'd lean towards putting one there and hoping people have enough common sense not to drag the cords across the burners. Afterall, there are also closing doors in the house that people can slam their fingers on and numerous other "potential" safety concerns.

    Thanks for your thoughts....


  12. #12
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Hmmm no soup wands being used in this kitchen. Im going to include and extension cord with this inspection report.

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  13. #13
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Someone spent $30-$40K on the kitchen remodel and did not include outlets.
    Most likely no general, the homeowner was doing all the contracting.
    By not hiring a general the homeowner saved themselves a whooping $1000-$1500.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Not a remodel, house is two years old. County inspector must have had a bad day, or it was friday.


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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler
    Your right H.G., What was I thinking? The vibration of the refrigerator would rub right through the insulation of a cord in no time!
    No you nut! I meant and mean the proximity of the vertical panel separating the area for the refrigerator or pantry, flamability/collection of grease etc. and more importantly the proximity to the opening refrigerator/freezer door, full extension, and its handle hitting the pots on the stove top being a safety hazard (like upsetting a pot of boiling water or hot grease causing a serious burn or fire hazard! Sheesh.

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer
    Hmmm no soup wands being used in this kitchen. Im going to include and extension cord with this inspection report.


    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer
    Not a remodel, house is two years old. County inspector must have had a bad day, or it was friday.
    I suspect the brick pattern tile/backsplash was not present during electrical or final, and would suspect someone lacking a rotozip covered over junction boxes for receptacle placement.

    Would suspect same regarding the upper cabinets installed in front of operable windows. New home or not, I'd suspect stock counter tops and intregal back splashes and a different cabinetry arrangement may have been present, the rest (solid countertops, brick patern mfg stone or tile, and upper cabinets glass front with solid backs installed over windows)being "decorating" upgrades after final issued but possibly before sale, or immediately afterward.

    Point being, reasonably doubtful is as was during the relevant inspections (electrical, insulation, drywall, and/or final), not necessarily an AHJ oversight. Cooktop off center between windows, may be too close to the window at the right. Heat and draft proximity to open gas flame/cooktop. Window would need safety glass to right to avoid glass shattering if temperature shock. ANSI Z223.1 (NFPA 54 National Fuel Gas Code) often referenced by such mfg's, presuming of course that cooktop is actually residential rated.

    I'm just as concerned about possiblity of live wiring and junction boxes burried behind that brick pattern backplash as I am about the proximity of those flamable upper cabinets unshielded as they are to the gas cooktop burners.

    The cook top hood is elevated well above the bottom and sidewalls of the adjacent flamable wood upper cabinetry immediately flanking both sides of the cooktop well within 30" height of cooktop burners immediately "sidewall" to same. Those flamables are not sheilded with metal and are otherwise too close/adjacent and height proximity from the burners for the fuel-fired cooktop.

    This leads me to believe that things are not presently as they would have been at the original inspections. Perhaps there were no appliances installed, period for inspection, and no finished decorating on the wall surfaces and no upper cabinets in this area at all: was C of 0 probably finaled with a minimum kitchen suite of cabinets likely no secondary intermediate island (sheesh an island between another island?), and NO appliances, then "finished to suit" for purchaser afterwards. This looks more like DIY design for uncoordinated contracted purchases and sub-contract installationsvia Big Box or that "Buyers Direct" outfit does

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 12-16-2010 at 10:07 AM.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    The windows are in the "new" designs for kitchens they go between the upper and lower cabinets not behind them. I have wired kitchens like that makes it next to impossible to put the outlets in the wall behind the cabinets. I have put plug mold along the front of the cabinets and even outlets under the upper cabnets with permission of the AHJ.


  17. #17
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Well, can't tell how wide those windows are, but they appear at least 24" wide.

    Could never qualify for a fed insured loan without required backspash in front of window - the countertops run right into them (however suspect property couldn't anyway due to being out of the dollar range of such programs, generally).


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Well, can't tell how wide those windows are, but they appear at least 24" wide.

    Could never qualify for a fed insured loan without required backspash in front of window - the countertops run right into them (however suspect property couldn't anyway due to being out of the dollar range of such programs, generally).
    Might be pass through windows to the patio. Great idea huh. You don't even have to go inside to get the salsa and beer!

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  19. #19
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    I actually like the layout of the kitchen. Open and airy and workable as well as a serious amount of counter space compared to most I see. I even see homes in the upper dollar range with minimum kitchens and no space.


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    I actually like the layout of the kitchen. Open and airy and workable as well as a serious amount of counter space compared to most I see. I even see homes in the upper dollar range with minimum kitchens and no space.
    Lots of counter top, but the work triangle is screwed up with the second island.

    The beatings will continue until morale has improved. mgt.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Based on standard brick sizes it looks to be missing a receptacle on each side of the cooktop, between it and the windows.

    Has a receptacle for the island too?

    Last edited by Jerry Peck; 12-16-2010 at 05:18 PM. Reason: speelin'
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  22. #22
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vern Heiler View Post
    Lots of counter top, but the work triangle is screwed up with the second island.

    Nah, the work triangle is a bit over rated anyways. Maximised counter top works for everyone. The island becomes the go betweem for the stove and sink as pots are pulled off or room needs to be made. Those that bake and or just cook a lot or for a lot of people and need the prep space without that damn cabinet over there work space and plenty of room to lay stuff out. Any counter/work space open and free out from under the cabinets is certainly worth it's weight.....or should that be salt since it is a kitchen.


  23. #23
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Fellman View Post
    I didn't/wouldn't write it up... I was more just asking for my own clarification on the rule. The arguments on both sides have some validity. I'd lean towards putting one there and hoping people have enough common sense not to drag the cords across the burners. Afterall, there are also closing doors in the house that people can slam their fingers on and numerous other "potential" safety concerns.

    Thanks for your thoughts....
    Matt,

    I don't see your logic here. If the code in effect states that it is required for that specific counter---you should include it in your report. By not doing this you have given the client a warm fuzzy feeling that the kitchen is OK-----but a local code enforcement agency may blow this away along with your reputation. If it is required by code you should report it. Let the client decide if they want a plastic toaster there or not---it's their decision.

    Rich Goeken


  24. #24
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    [quote=H.G. Watson, Sr.;153827]No you nut! I meant and mean the proximity of the vertical panel separating the area for the refrigerator or pantry, flamability/collection of grease etc. and more importantly the proximity to the opening refrigerator/freezer door, full extension, and its handle hitting the pots on the stove top being a safety hazard (like upsetting a pot of boiling water or hot grease causing a serious burn or fire hazard! Sheesh.


    HG,

    I think you are stretchering things a little here. BTW, I also didn't know what you were objecting to as you were not clear. Grease, etc.? Not a foot away unless you cook by throwing things around. Spatter, in most cases, will not go that far. As for the pot handles---hasn't it been drummed into you for years to put the handles in so that you do not spill the pot of hot something on yourself? You forgot to include a non-slip floor mat in front of the stove.

    Rich


  25. #25
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Well, can't tell how wide those windows are, but they appear at least 24" wide.

    Could never qualify for a fed insured loan without required backspash in front of window - the countertops run right into them (however suspect property couldn't anyway due to being out of the dollar range of such programs, generally).
    HG:
    I'm getting off topic somewhat but have been puzzled by the apparent lack of code requirements for backsplash or impervious surface at counters. See previous post: http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...ck-splash.html
    But, my question to you is there a specific requirement for "fed insured loans" for kitchen backsplash or just in front of windows?
    Also, in general, are there specific inspection guidelines for fed insured loans that home inspectors can obtain so we know what we should be looking for?
    Thanks for your help.

    Gary Bottomley
    Cadillac, Michigan

  26. #26
    Alexei Chaviano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Hello Matt your answer is yes if you have 12" or wider, see this on NEC 210.52 C


    (1) Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space. See related Illustration


    Illustration for 210.52(C)(1)

    Section 210.52(C)(1) specifies required minimum spacing of receptacle outlets serving kitchen countertop surfaces, including island and peninsular spaces.




  27. #27
    Daniel Mummey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Nothing wrong with this location, unless it violates the state/local electrical code or does not have GFI an within 5 ft. of sink(s).


  28. #28
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Mummey View Post
    Nothing wrong with this location, unless it violates the state/local electrical code or does not have GFI an within 5 ft. of sink(s).
    All kitchen counter receptacles need GFCI protection, not just within 5 ft.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Mummey View Post
    Nothing wrong with this location, unless it violates the state/local electrical code or does not have GFI an within 5 ft. of sink(s).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    All kitchen counter receptacles need GFCI protection, not just within 5 ft.
    And it was not 5 feet of the sink back then either, it was 6 feet, but that went changed 15 years ago.

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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Outlet Required?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Bottomley View Post
    HG:
    I'm getting off topic somewhat but have been puzzled by the apparent lack of code requirements for backsplash or impervious surface at counters. See previous post: http://www.inspectionnews.net/home_i...ck-splash.html
    But, my question to you is there a specific requirement for "fed insured loans" for kitchen backsplash or just in front of windows?
    Also, in general, are there specific inspection guidelines for fed insured loans that home inspectors can obtain so we know what we should be looking for?
    Thanks for your help.
    Yes. 3-1/2" min. IIRC backsplash for FHA/HUD insured lending for kitchen countertop backsplashes, "impervious surface" or something similar. Someone who is presently doing HUD Inspectons/appraisals can verify if the requirement is still in play. VA used to require similar.


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