Electrical thread at a DIY forum.

[Rollie Meyers]

Here is a link from another forum that you all may either cringe or find disturbing, or both.

I Wired A 240v Subpanel, And None Of The Outlets Work.......... Help! - DIY Chatroom - DIY Home Improvement Forum



Here is another link from the same forum of some drawings that have been used here in some posts.

Stubbies Diagrams And Other Stuff - DIY Chatroom - DIY Home Improvement Forum

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[Bill Kriegh]

There is not, nor does there appear to be upcoming, any move afoot to require a permit be in hand before anyone can buy either rolls of wire or load centers. Apparently, this is because of a homeowners right to basically do anything they want to to their residence, laws in the building codes apparently taking a back seat to this "right".

This kind of law would help addresses (definitely won't stop) those situations where the installer/homeowner doesn't have a clue what's going on because a permit isn't required to obtain the required materials. It would seem that purchasing materials that obviously are for more than allowed repairs doesn't raise a flag with anyone till either a problem arises with the installation from a functional standpoint or proof that the installation wasn't inspected becomes an issue - typically in a sale situation.

The fact of the matter is that until lawmakers are willing to bite the bullet and make it tough for handy men, homeowners, and even (so called)trades people to get the materials to create a mess like this, finding them is going to keep being an everyday occurrence. You can buy virtually any type of materials without a permit, like gas water heaters and furnaces. (At least we have a law here requiring CO2 detectors in rentals so landlords have a bit less of a chance to kill the occupants of a property -of course the law was finally put into place because a "professionally" installed furnace killed a family)

I recently removed some wiring from a basement that consisted of some old telephone service wire that consisted of steel wire with a thin copper plating. These wires had a current carrying capacity so low that a direct short doesn't trip a breaker. The stuff had been in the house for years and there had evidently been issues with washing machine and television failures in the basement. No electrical permit wouldn't have caught this but no permit for buying the drywall to do the area might have........

Anyway, like they say, looks are only skin deep. Stupid goes clear to the bone. Installations like this bother me greatly but are not in the least little bit surprising. I deal with them way too often.

Merry Christmas and best of the season to you all

[Jim Port]

Apparently, this is because of a homeowners right to basically do anything they want to to their residence, laws in the building codes apparently taking a back seat to this "right".

This sounds similar to the reasoning for allowing homeowners to opt out of the required sprinklers in single family dwellings. The council person used the reason that they should not be required as this was government intrusion on the rights of the people.

I guess they are unfamiliar with all the other intrusions like building codes, taxes, speed limits and licensing requirements that are part of everyday life and mostly designed for the safety of all.

[Roger Frazee]

Here is a link from another forum that you all may either cringe or find disturbing, or both.

I Wired A 240v Subpanel, And None Of The Outlets Work.......... Help! - DIY Chatroom - DIY Home Improvement Forum



Here is another link from the same forum of some drawings that have been used here in some posts.

Stubbies Diagrams And Other Stuff - DIY Chatroom - DIY Home Improvement Forum

Hello Rollie

All those drawings are mine, except for maybe some of the images. The link you posted is a sticky for other DIY forums besides the one you linked. On the forum you posted my username is stubbie which you can find the story of how I got that name on the same forum. I'm Bruto ...(popeye fame) on doityourself.com.

For some 7 or 8 years I've been assisting on DIY forums to help homeowners who ..frankly ..need a little help. You will find the same drawings on selfhelpandmore.com and Doityourself.com. The sticky on Doityourself.com is also mine showing several drawings on proper sub-panel installations.

You will also see them on Mike Holt and Electrical talk etc...

Did you have a reason for posting the link to my drawings?

As for homeowners and DIY forums the idea is that these homeowners and others are going to do the work with your help or without it...with a permit or without it. They simply are for the most part not going to hire electricians. You will find this to always be the case for reasons Bill stated. I don't necessarily like it but it is a fact none the less.

So I find it rewarding to try and keep these people from killing themselves or burning their houses down...and often you have to tell them that their only option is to hire an electrician. They just aren't going to be able to do the work safely.

[Rick Hurst]

It won't be rewarding one day when one of these DIY's gets electrocuted or dies and their survivors sue you in court for giving them advice.

They will say your the "professional" and being a home inspector that the victim assumed your advice was correct.

I've said it before, but I think giving advice to DIY's on this board or any other board is a huge liability for anyone doing so and so does my attorney.

rick

[Roger Frazee]

It won't be rewarding one day when one of these DIY's gets electrocuted or dies and their survivors sue you in court for giving them advice.

They will say your the "professional" and being a home inspector that the victim assumed your advice was correct.

I've said it before, but I think giving advice to DIY's on this board or any other board is a huge liability for anyone doing so and so does my attorney.

rick

I've always wondered about that Rick. But I have to also wonder if that is the case then why on earth would any DIY forums or any Professional forums exist?? Advice is given on all of them ... and some of it isn't correct professional or not. If that liability is true then the adminstrators of a forums origin would be insane to provide the forum in the first place....no??

Are you not giving advice on this forum that could be so called lawsuit material under your definition?

[Rick Hurst]

I've always wondered about that Rick. But I have to also wonder if that is the case then why on earth would any DIY forums or any Professional forums exist?? Advice is given on all of them ... and some of it isn't correct professional or not. If that liability is true then the adminstrators of a forums origin would be insane to provide the forum in the first place....no??

Are you not giving advice on this forum that could be so called lawsuit material under your definition?

The difference is this board for the longest period of time was much dedicated to home inspectors who had questions and was seeking help. Now we seem to have went the other direction somewhat and have people asking DIY questions more frequently. You can always tell cause they have so few history posts and their questions are obvious.

Those folks I do try and refrain from giving advice too.

As far as other boards, the administrators have themselves protected by having rules set forth when you sign on that states usually the comments are not theirs and yadda yadda....

JMHO

rick

[Roger Frazee]

The difference is this board for the longest period of time was much dedicated to home inspectors who had questions and was seeking help. Now we seem to have went the other direction somewhat and have people asking DIY questions more frequently. You can always tell cause they have so few history posts and their questions are obvious.

Those folks I do try and refrain from giving advice too.

As far as other boards, the administrators have themselves protected by having rules set forth when you sign on that states usually the comments are not theirs and yadda yadda....

JMHO

rick

Yes I do see your point. I would hate to think I should pull those drawings that are intended to help/teach those "who don't know what they don't know" . I do appreciate your comments on the legal aspect ..I'll wait and see other comments and make a decision in those regards.

As for DIY advice you have two sides of the fence to stand on ...I've been on both sides .. but I kept cringing when I saw the results of homeowners unadvised work as evidenced in Rollies post.

You will notice I did not respond to that thread ...

[John Steinke]

My recently aquired home is the beneficiary of seventy years of unqualified, make-do, and improvised repairs. I have yet to find any detail that complies with the applicable code or trade practice. Overall, that's a pretty impressive accomplishment.

Yet, I would not want to live in a place where such was not possible.

Such a place would be one where I didn't 'own' anything, and where every activity was monitored and controlled by others. Such places do exist - and thousands daily risk life and limb trying to escape them.

The most 'benevolent' such places are simply still living in the Middle Ages - not my idea of the good life either.

The USA was formed on the basis that it was the government that needed regulation - rather than the populace. Indeed, the founders had just rebelled against intrusive regulation. I suspect that the founders would consider today's maze of regulations and codes an abomination. Safety? Somehow that idea was not considered as vital to a free society as, say, being able to go to the church of your choice- or severely limiting the scope of government.

Yet, these days, there are millions of ignorant drones out their, seeking to enslave everyone else, expanding the reach of governemnt into every detail of our lives. I oppose them.

It's rather comical the way the DIY at the other forum messed up. Maybe we need to teach a little less 'self esteem' in our schools, and a little more 'shop class.' Maybe we need to back off from this silliy notion that reading a codebook and passing a mail-order test makes you as expert as a man who spent years leaning his trade. Perhaps the DIY has a bit more respect for tradesmen now.

I'll give the DIY credit for at least trying. It's far easier to be critical than correct- and our world has far too many critics.

I can't comment on the artwork in the second link; it's not coming through for me.

[Speedy Petey]

It won't be rewarding one day when one of these DIY's gets electrocuted or dies and their survivors sue you in court for giving them advice.

I must say, some of us are sure that the advice we give is correct and accurate.

What you describe can be applied to SO many things in life, if you really worried about it that much it would be disabling.
At the same time, most of us do not go around with an attorney in out back pocket, paranoid of the fact that we might get sued for looking at someone the wrong way.

I was part of that thread linked above and I can tell you, I wanted to reach into my computer and smack that guy silly. He was just another a-hole with the sole purpose of getting only the answers he wanted, which was that the death trap he created was fine and could work. Then when he didn't he got all pissy. Something we see from time to time unfortunately.

He even admitted, all he knew he learned from Home Depot employees.
If anyone should be worried about getting sued it's those morons. THEY are the ones who told him to wire it up that way in the first place. LOL
If giving advice were a real liability those guys would be first in line for the witness stand.

[Brian Hannigan]

The difference is this board for the longest period of time was much dedicated to home inspectors who had questions and was seeking help.

And still is.

Now we seem to have went the other direction somewhat and have people asking DIY questions more frequently. You can always tell cause they have so few history posts and their questions are obvious.

With well over 100,000 page indexed on google, yahoo and bing the site is very easy for anyone to find and we attract all types of questions from inspectors and DIY.

That is why many have asked and I have created the DIY category. We will try to keep all the DIY questions in here (if you see they are posted elsewhere click "Report" and let me know and I will move it as soon as I can.)

It is totally optional for anyone to reply to posts in the DIY any other category.

As far as other boards, the administrators have themselves protected by having rules set forth when you sign on that states usually the comments are not theirs and yadda yadda....

JMHO

rick

[Matt Fellman]

If giving advice were a real liability those guys would be first in line for the witness stand.

I can't believe it hasn't happened yet (maybe it has and I just haven't heard).... but I mean a BIG lawsuit story... like an apartment building burns down after a guy came from HD.

After all..... isn't their jingle something like, "You can do it, we can help" ?

[Speedy Petey]

After all..... isn't their jingle something like, "You can do it, we can help" ?

HAHAHA..LOL.
I know, it's almost like they are admitting it.