Results 1 to 40 of 40
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    2,797

    Default Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Only outlet serving peninsula.

    OK, it violates 210-52(c) (too low)... but... does it still need GFCI protection as it is essentially "serving" the counter top, even though it is positioned as a "baseboard" outlet?

    Similar Threads:
    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Last edited by Michael Thomas; 03-02-2011 at 02:41 PM.
    Inspection Referral
    Michael Thomas
    Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
    http://paragoninspects.com

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,899

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    I would say no as you already determined it does not meet the criteria that a receptacle to serve the countertop needs to meet due to mounting height.

    With that said the required receptacle should have been installed in addition to the one shown.


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Outlets are not allowed to be mounted through the sides of cabinets.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,251

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    I would say yes, it needs GFCI protection ... OR ... they can install another receptacle outlet in the proper location and GFCI protect that new receptacle outlet.

    When was that built? Not that it really matters, but that would indicate whether that receptacle was required at the time of construction, and whether or not it was required to have GFCI protection at that time.

    I say "not that it really matters" as we all know it needs to have GFCI protection now, and that it should be higher to serve the countertop.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,251

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Outlets are not allowed to be mounted through the sides of cabinets.
    Do you have a code reference for that statement? Thanks.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    You will find it in beginning in 1996 and 1999 NEC in the provisions where/ when permitting receptacles to serve the counter surface are placed below the countertop surface - 96/99 still contained an absolute prohibition for same being installed or locating receptacles in the SIDES OF CABINETS. Face perhaps, side WALLS perhaps, but not in the actual sides of the cabinets themselves. The pictured location doesn't appear to be anywhere near a sink of any kind, and is not in a location or proximity requiring GFCI protection relative to a countertop. It is neither 20" above (previously 18") nor 12" below same and no sink appears within six feet.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,251

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    You will find it in beginning in 1996 and 1999 NEC in the provisions where/ when permitting receptacles to serve the counter surface are placed below the countertop surface - 96/99 still contained an absolute prohibition for same being installed or locating receptacles in the SIDES OF CABINETS. Face perhaps, side WALLS perhaps, but not in the actual sides of the cabinets themselves.

    You will need to do better than that, you need to provide the code which says you are not allowed to do what you said you are not allowed to do.

    Here is a start for you - from the 1996 NEC.
    - 210-52. Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
    - - (c) Countertops. In kitchens and dining rooms of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for counter spaces shall be installed in accordance with (1) through (5) below.
    - - - (3) Peninsular counter space. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each peninsular counter space with a long dimension of 24 in. (610 mm) or greater and a short dimension of 12 in. (305 mm) or greater. A peninsular countertop is measured from the connecting edge.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Michael,That looks like one very large and long "ell" shaped island with a slide in range interupting the length at the inside corner of the ell or "L".It is difficult to determine the depth of the countertop behind the slide in range, assuming it is less than 12" deep behind the range than a second receptacle is required for the larger than 4 square feet area to the left of the range.If that range doesn't fully interupt the countertop, that is to say if there is 12" depth of countertop behind the slide in range than a second receptacle location is not required, presuming there is one serving the peninsula counter/countertop to the right of the range. If that depth behind the range is less than 12" then you still require receptacle to the right. Serving the kitchen countertop/food "prep" area then it must be GFCI protected.


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Its in 210-52

    You like to ignore every section and list order don't you? By the way 1996/1999 the subs are capitalized "C" not "c".

    Read all of it Jerry, you'll find it just where I told you it was...in the provisions for mounting a receptacle serving a counter surface BELOW. You'll find it in the list order under the exceptions for accessibility for occupants and special permission by AHJ when a countertop does not project 6" or more over a cabinet....

    Cut and paste away, no substitue for reading.


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,899

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Face perhaps, side WALLS perhaps, but not in the actual sides of the cabinets themselves.
    Does this make sense to anyone? Is there a difference between the side of a cabinet and the sidewall of a cabinet?

    Maybe I should follow what others have advised and use the ignore feature.


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,251

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    You like to ignore every section and list order don't you? By the way 1996/1999 the subs are capitalized "C" not "c".
    You'd better tell NFPA then ... I copied and pasted that from the 1996 NEC produced by them. (Sigh - the Great and Powerful Wizard apparently is not so great and powerful, guess we should not look behind that curtain either?)

    Read all of it Jerry, you'll find it just where I told you it was...in the provisions for mounting a receptacle serving a counter surface BELOW. You'll find it in the list order under the exceptions for accessibility for occupants and special permission by AHJ when a countertop does not project 6" or more over a cabinet....
    - 210-52
    - - (b) Small Appliances.
    - - - (1) In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small appliance branch circuits required by Section 220-4(b) shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by Sections 210-52(a) and (c) and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
    - - - - Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by Section 210-52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in Section 210-70(a), Exception No. 1 shall be permitted.
    - - - - Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
    - - - (2) The two or more small appliance branch circuits specified in (b)(1) above shall have no other outlets.
    - - - - Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified above.
    - - - - Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.
    - - - (3) Receptacles installed in the kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be supplied by not less than two small appliance branch circuits, either or both of which shall also be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in Section 210-52(b)(1). Additional small appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in Section 210-52(b)(1).
    (Jerry's note: Nothing in (b) the above prohibits the receptacle from being in the cabinet walls ... sides OR ENDS.)
    - - (c) Countertops. In kitchens and dining rooms of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for counter spaces shall be installed in accordance with (1) through (5) below.
    - - - (1) Wall counter space. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall counter space 12 in. (305 mm) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 24 in. (610 mm), measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.
    - - - (2) Island counter spaces. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each island counter space with a long dimension of 24 in. (610 mm) or greater and a short dimension of 12 in. (305 mm) or greater.
    - - - (3) Peninsular counter space. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each peninsular counter space with a long dimension of 24 in. (610 mm) or greater and a short dimension of 12 in. (305 mm) or greater. A peninsular countertop is measured from the connecting edge.
    - - - (4) Separate spaces. Countertop spaces separated by range tops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered as separate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of (1), (2), and (3) above.
    - - - (5) Receptacle outlet location. Receptacle outlets shall be located not more than 18 in. (458 mm) above the countertop. Receptacle outlets shall not be installed in a face-up position in the work surfaces or countertops. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fastened in place or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as these required outlets.
    - - - - Exception: Where acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and to meet the special conditions as specified in a or b below, receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 12 in. (305 mm) below the countertop. Receptacles mounted below the countertop in accordance with this exception shall not be located where the countertop extends more than 6 in. (153 mm) beyond its support base.
    - - - - - a. Construction for the physically impaired.
    - - - - - b. Where island or peninsular counter space construction precludes practical mounting above the countertop.
    (Jerry's note: Nothing in (c) the above prohibits the receptacle from being in the cabinet walls ... sides OR ENDS.)

    Oh ... by the way ... those were COPIED AND PASTED from the 1996 NEC, and the (b) and (c) ARE as they were ... lower case.

    And, yes, I have read it ... now it is YOUR turn to READ it - show us all where that receptacle is:
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.
    ... not allowed to be mounted through the sides of cabinets.
    By the way, in case you did not look at the photo either ... sigh ... you would have seen that there is no overhang of the countertop past that end of the cabinet. Keep in mind that we had already established that the receptacle was too low, all you are being asked to support is your assertion that:
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.
    ... not allowed to be mounted through the sides of cabinets.
    I am awaiting enlightenment, oh Great and Powerful Wizard ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,251

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Maybe I should follow what others have advised and use the ignore feature.
    Jim,

    Please don't ignore him ... I have thought about it, but then we would not be able to respond to his erroneous posts, and that information would be left to stand as though it were correct.

    He thinks he is fencing with others, but every time he lunges forward with his foil ... all he does is break the mirror ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring City/Surrounding Philadelphia area
    Posts
    3,473

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post

    He thinks he is fencing with others, but every time he lunges forward with his foil ... all he does is break the mirror ...
    That's some funny chit Jerry.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Lake Barrington, IL
    Posts
    1,363

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    I wouldn't make any comment on the receptacle.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Your "as we have already established" the receptacle is "too low" to "serve the countertop" is wrong.

    You have failed to actually READ the limited (edited) portion of 1996 210-52 that you bothered to post. 1996 did NOT limit the lower elevation. The loophole ALLOWED a lower receptacle to the peninsula - and did NOT restrict its height to be within 12" of the countertop surface. That loophole DOES NOT "establish" your "theory" for 1996 unammended NEC. The "loophole" was closed in 1999 NEC.

    As usual you post incomplete snippets.

    The entirety of 1996 210-52 ALLOWED (loophole) for a lower elevation receptacle (of any lower elevation - didn't have to be w/in 12" of countertop) to serve a peninsula or island when the entirety was flat and had no above cabinets or adjacent/abutting walls/half walls.

    That loophole (too low outlet) was CLOSED in the entirety of 1999 210-52
    A side wall or a wall is not a cabinet SIDE - through the cabinet side mounting prohibited for the lower than countertop mounted receptacle.

    With no sink edge/rim within 6 feet, a receptacle that low (as pictured) wasn't required to be gfci protected in either year. Prior to 1996 without a sink in proximity and not at or 18" above countertop no requirement to GFCI protect or even have a receptacle in vicinity with no actual WALL (half wall, etc.) present.

    I know YOU want to focus to a limited Peck selected portion, but you have to abide the entire section and subsection and the rest of the code.

    A cabinet is not a wall, and a wall is not a cabinet. A cabinet side is not a side wall. Cabinet side is not the cabinet front, nor the face frame.

    The section is 210 all of it. The box can be surface mounted not through the side of the cabinet receptacle mounting.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-03-2011 at 07:23 AM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    2,797

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Barker View Post
    I wouldn't make any comment on the receptacle.
    Would you comment on it at in-progress / new construction?

    Michael Thomas
    Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
    http://paragoninspects.com

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    2,797

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    FWIW, I learn a lot watching JP and HG "discuss" various issues - even though often at some point code interpretation becomes more theology than technology...

    All that popcorn is bad for my waistline, though.

    Michael Thomas
    Paragon Property Services Inc., Chicago IL
    http://paragoninspects.com

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,899

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    I still have not seen the specific prohibition against the receptacle being in the side of the cabinet.

    Why was the debate started about the 96 and 99 codes? Are they relevant to this kitchen? How is this known? It is not in the data supplied by the OP.


  19. #19
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    You have water in a kitchen, right? You may very well and more than likely will mop up a wet mess someone spilled down the side of the cabinet, right? you could be standing in your bare feet as the majority may do at home, right? As far as I am concerned it holds true like an outside patio that has a receptacle or just a receptacle outside or in a garage.

    I would in fact mention it to my clients and stop looking for something in a code book. This is not like a receptacle behind a refrig or something even remotely like it. It is on a working counter where spills happen all the time and there could be an appliance or something else plugged into that receptacle that could cause a shock, a bad cord that you do not know about is cut you grab it and unplug it to get the item out of the way to clean up the mess.

    What I see here is a whole lot of home inspectors and others looking for reasons to not write it up. There is a whole slew of possibilities to write it up. Are we not looking out fior our clients and our clients child's safety.

    Wet are, electricity, electric shock hazard where you are ten times better ground than in a dry area.

    No offense folks but I thing you all are all wet No pun there but just wet in a puddle with an item plugged into a receptacle...next to, attached to the counter. etc etc etc

    If I were any of you I would write it up because it is what you do.....look out for your client. Sometimes you just have to put the damn code book down.

    Last edited by Ted Menelly; 03-04-2011 at 07:55 AM.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Thomas View Post
    Would you comment on it at in-progress / new construction?
    Depends on where and what kind of "new construction" and what the approved plans indicated.

    Its been a while since I dived deeply into the City of Chicago Codes. Last time came across quite a few archaic references to varying editions of the NEC including some in the 90s, with more than a few "special" ammendments.

    I wouldn't have participated in an in-progress "inspection" or recommend same (a post-event consultation or investigation during work stoppage/non-progress, perhaps) for an "HI" that didn't have City permits and approved plans on file, in the city or unincorporated Cook for that matter. Citing deviations from approved plans is a horse of a different color, as is a technical inspection or consultation.

    Still don't "know" the depth of the countertop behind that range--if there is 12" depth behind it, the countertop space area is not considered broken and the entire peninsula "L" or ell-shaped or not can be served from a receptacle location to the right of the range, presumedly where the peninsula originates at the wall to the right - out of our photo view to the right.


  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,251

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    H. G.,

    I am adding red, bold, highlighting to my quote to show you where YOU need to READ what the code SAYS:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    - - - (5) Receptacle outlet location. Receptacle outlets shall be located not more than 18 in. (458 mm) above the countertop. Receptacle outlets shall not be installed in a face-up position in the work surfaces or countertops. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fastened in place or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as these required outlets.
    - - - - Exception: Where acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and to meet the special conditions as specified in a or b below, receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 12 in. (305 mm) below the countertop. Receptacles mounted below the countertop in accordance with this exception shall not be located where the countertop extends more than 6 in. (153 mm) beyond its support base.
    - - - - - a. Construction for the physically impaired.
    - - - - - b. Where island or peninsular counter space construction precludes practical mounting above the countertop.
    Did you read that?

    Here it is again: receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 12 in. (305 mm) below the countertop.

    "NOT MORE THAN 12 IN. BELOW" the countertop.

    That IS limiting the distance the receptacle is below the countertop.

    Okay, now explain again why you are saying: (red bold highlighting is mine)
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    Your "as we have already established" the receptacle is "too low" to "serve the countertop" is wrong.

    You have failed to actually READ the limited (edited) portion of 1996 210-52 that you bothered to post. 1996 did NOT limit the lower elevation. The loophole ALLOWED a lower receptacle to the peninsula - and did NOT restrict its height to be within 12" of the countertop surface. That loophole DOES NOT "establish" your "theory" for 1996 unammended NEC. The "loophole" was closed in 1999 NEC.

    As usual you post incomplete snippets.

    The entirety of 1996 210-52 ALLOWED (loophole) for a lower elevation receptacle (of any lower elevation - didn't have to be w/in 12" of countertop) to serve a peninsula or island when the entirety was flat and had no above cabinets or adjacent/abutting walls/half walls.
    I will repeat what the code states: not more than 12 in. (305 mm) below the countertop

    Please explain how you get to where that does not limit the receptacle to not more than 12 inches below the countertop.

    While we are all waiting for that one, let's get back to the topic you are trying to hard to get us to forget:
    (Jerry's note: Nothing in (c) the above prohibits the receptacle from being in the cabinet walls ... sides OR ENDS.)
    You are not getting off without explaining where you said:
    Quote Originally Posted by H. G. Watson, Sr.
    Outlets are not allowed to be mounted through the sides of cabinets.
    STILL WAITING on your answer to that one.

    NOW we are also waiting on your answer to the 'not more than' means 'can be more than' one.

    You, sir, are just digging your hole deeper, and deeper, and deeper, and ...

    You have one more chance at correcting yourself, after that I will just have to post a warning for all who read this thread that your information is totally incorrect and let you blather away to your heart's content. Those readers will have been warned of your posting erroneous information and that they should take it and use it for what it is ... BS fertilizer, good for growing plants, albeit quite acidic for even that.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  22. #22
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
    Ted Menelly Guest

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    This is all pretty funny as I just realized that there is a dogs water bowl directly below the electric outlet where there is absolutely going to be wet spills on the floor and folks pulling plugs out or plugging them into the receptacle.

    All the rest is ....................... well ................... pretty silly conversation trying to prove or disprove ,,,,,,,,, what?


  23. #23
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
    Roger Frazee Guest

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    I would say yes, it needs GFCI protection ... OR ... they can install another receptacle outlet in the proper location and GFCI protect that new receptacle outlet.

    When was that built? Not that it really matters, but that would indicate whether that receptacle was required at the time of construction, and whether or not it was required to have GFCI protection at that time.

    I say "not that it really matters" as we all know it needs to have GFCI protection now, and that it should be higher to serve the countertop.
    I would agree with the receptacle needing gfci, not necessarily required however at the time of installation. Besides that receptacle is within 3 feet of the dogs water bowl .....


    FWIW if that receptacle was installed in the land of oz in the end, side whatever of that peninsula in the correct location and gfci and meets the exception for the 6" or less overhang it would pass inspection all day long under current code.

    Other than location I don't see much difference (where it is installed ) side,sidewall or whatever than this example ....

    Receptacle outlet placement in kitchens

    Code compliant or not it is in a foolish location for the safety of toddlers when mom is frying chicken in the electric fryer.


  24. #24
    John Steinke's Avatar
    John Steinke Guest

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    I've often tilted at the windmills errected by the 'kitchen design' folks. I don't like mounting receptacles in the sides- if for no other reasons than the flimsiness of the 1/4" plywood case and the hazards posed by moving drawers- but there's a world of difference between what I like and what has to be done.

    Kitchen receptacles are not required to be GFCI protected. Onlt receptacles serving the countertop are required to have GFCI protection. Receptacles too low are not allowed to be considered as serving the countertop. Those are the code rules.

    With that in mind, I cannot see any way to infer a requirement that the receptacle in the picture be GFCI protected.Indeed, you might even be able to assert that the receptacle is forbidden to be supplied by the same circuit as the one that actually does serve the counter.


  25. #25
    Russel Ray's Avatar
    Russel Ray Guest

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Menelly View Post
    YSometimes you just have to put the damn code book down.
    That has to be the statement of the century!


  26. #26
    bill gosman's Avatar
    bill gosman Guest

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    I agree with "sometimes put the code book down". As a first time poster, long time HI its interesting the debate stired by a simple question, but code not so simple. I use code to inform myself about safe practices and then reley more on common sense with my client. In this case I would have just explained to my client what a GFCI is and why I think it would be a good idea to have this outlet gfi protected for all the good reasons mentioned here. Client safety comes first, even if it wasn't code I would still recommend it. And not worry about weather code requires it or not.
    For example I don't like to see cords run verticaly from floor to counter as I have seen kids pull the applaince off the counter grabing the cord or tripping over it. I don't need code to warn my client about this possability

    If buyers/sellers need to know the requirement to resolve contract issues I am willing to research the code reference or refer to county inspector. This approach has worked for me for 30 years without using the word code in my reports.


    Bill Gosman | LinkedIn


  27. #27
    Alexei Chaviano's Avatar
    Alexei Chaviano Guest

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Hey Jerry for now on if we don't see a peninsula builded with 2x4 studs and sheet-rock we better don't let that home pass the inspection or otherwise tell the NFPA that cavinets are not allowed as a peninsula, becuose this stupid receptacle.Becouse if we don't do this we'll be again in troble in the future with H.G.


  28. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,899

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bertrams View Post
    The receptacle as shown is a code violation simply because it is too low. The argument that it can be allowed to remain because it does not serve the counter-top is erroneous. It is mounted on the peninsula and serves the same. The addition of another receptacle within 12" of the counter top does not change the status of the existing receptacle as there would simply be two outlets serving the counter.

    Cords hanging over the sides of a peninsula are dangerous whether the receptacle is at the right height or not. How many toddlers were burned before this came into the code? It seems strange that anyone would try to circumvent the code when it comes to protecting babies. There is no gray area with the code on this issue. It is simply not permitted and for a good reason. It's not like the solution is a major ordeal.
    David, you say in one place that it is too low to serve the countertop but then later say that if another receptacle was installed at the proper distance from the countertop that you would then have two receptacles serving the counter. You are contradicting yourself. You need to have one receptacle to serve the peninsula. You are not limited to just one.

    There is no prohibition against the receptacle as shown. I do not see why you are saying that it cannot remain. Under more recent code editions it would not qualify as a receptacle to serve the peninsula due to incorrect mounting height from the countertop.


  29. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,251

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    (bold and underlining is mine)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    There is no prohibition against the receptacle as
    shown. I do not see why you are saying that it cannot remain. Under more recent code editions it would not qualify as a receptacle to serve the peninsula due to incorrect mounting height from the countertop.
    That is the key.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    601

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    A receptacle below 12 inches is NOT illegal. It simply can't be considered to be serving the counter top. A floor mounted receptacle would be legal anywhere in the room, even under the receptacle in question - so why would the pictured one be prohibited?

    While it may be nice to think about safety issues here, there is nothing to prevent a child from grabbing ANY cord hanging over a counter top and potentially pulling a skillet of hot grease over the edge even if the cord resides within the magic 12". There is also nothing stopping someone from using an extension cord to use the pictured receptacle on a short corded appliance, or using a receptacle across the room for the same purpose. I think logic (if any exists) would suggest that the 12 inch rule is there so that something can be plugged in without it hanging over the edge of the counter top

    If preventing scalding was the purpose of placement then under counter receptacles wouldn't be permitted and tombstone type mounts would be required where a wall or suitable upper cabinet wasn't present. And, there would be a requirement for a raised edge on the countertop to prevent a skillet from being pulled over the edge even if plugged into a countertop receptacle.


  31. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    On The Mason-Dixon Line
    Posts
    577

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    I was going to jump into this one but decided to to just sit on the sidelines and watch.
    Was quite the show Guys!

    Oh by the way, Jim Port and Jerry Peck are spot on with this one!


  32. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,899

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Thanks Ken. Glad you enjoyed.

    Well said Bill K.


  33. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,251

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Port View Post
    Thanks Ken. Glad you enjoyed.

    Well said Bill K.
    Agreed on both, thanks Ken and Bill.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    michigan
    Posts
    421

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Ignoring the erroneous remark about "mounting receptacles in sides of cabinets", there is no place in any code I am aware of that disallows a non gfci 'convenience outlet ' to be placed on the outside of a cabinet to facilitate the use of a vacuum cleaner or night light or similar use.

    The below 12" of a kitchen counter top receptacle cannot be counted as a required outlet to serve said counter top and therefore is not required to be gfci protected as stated by others.

    I have been asked to rule on this very subject that was written up by a HI and was subsequently ignored by the seller as an issue. No change was required and no change was made to this installation in sale. Tends to put egg on HI face.

    May I humbly suggest that if U, (an HI) wish to make issue of an installation in this regard, that U limit your language to 'a personal concern' of yours only. This method will communicate your concern for your client while not indicating it is in some fashion a code violation.

    Would gfci protection be a good idea? You betcha !


  35. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    601

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bertrams View Post
    Like I said Bill, I could be full of crap and it seems that you would tend to agree.
    I don't call anybody stupid till they prove me wrong.

    I would suspect you aren't an electrician or really familiar with the NEC simply because of the way you read and interpret it. The section that you have an issue with is 210.52 (C)(5)exception (at least in the 2008 edition). This section deals specifically with the rules for what qualifies as and the rules for a countertop receptacle. There is no prohibition in this section for receptacles placed anywhere else because all it deals with is COUNTERTOP RECEPTACLES. IF THE RECEPTACLE IS BELOW 12 INCHES IT DOESN"T QUALIFY AS A COUNTERTOP RECEPTACLE so the section DOESN'T APPLY. Very simply.

    The only issue I see here is the absence on a legitimate counter top receptacle - one within the 12 inch limit

    IF there was a prohibition for a receptacle mounted below the counter top more than 12 inches, it would be a direct prohibition, much like the one that says a panel isn't permitted in a clothes closet.

    Familiarity with the NEC requires a bit of understanding, and what many fail to comprehend is that if something isn't prohibited, it is permitted. The NEC also has various blurbs about not being a design manual or for use by untrained persons. This isn't a dig but simply to point out you can seldom look at one part of one article in the NEC and walkaway with a complete understanding of what you are attempting to find out.

    As for intent, the only things enforceable are those in writing, as follows:

    2008 NEC (my highlights)
    210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets

    (C) Countertops. In kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms,dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for countertop spaces shall be installed in accordancewith 210.52(C)(1) through (C)(5).
    Where a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is installed in an island or peninsular countertop and the width of the countertop behind the range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is less than 300 mm (12 in.), the range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink is considered to divide the countertop space into two separate countertop spaces as defined in 210.52(C)(4). Each separate countertop space shall comply with the applicable requirements in 210.52(C).

    (1) Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider. Receptacle outlets shall be installed so that no point along the wall line is more than 600 mm (24 in.) measured horizontally from a receptacle outlet in that space.

    Exception: Receptacle outlets shall not be required on a wall directly behind a range, counter-mounted cooking unit, or sink in the installation described in Figure 210.52(C)(1).

    (2) Island Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle shall be installed at each island countertop space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater.

    (3) Peninsular Countertop Spaces. At least one receptacle outlet shall be installed at each peninsular countertop space with a long dimension of 600 mm (24 in.) or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm (12 in.) or greater. A peninsular countertop is measured from the connecting edge.

    (4) Separate Spaces. Countertop spaces separated by rangetops, refrigerators, or sinks shall be considered a sseparate countertop spaces in applying the requirements of 210.52(C)(1), (C)(2), and (C)(3).

    (5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above, the countertop. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, sinks, or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1),

    Exception, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as these required outlets.

    Exception to (5): To comply with the conditions specified in (1) or (2), receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop. Receptacles mounted below a countertop in accordance with this exception shall not be located where the countertop extends more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond its
    support base.
    (1) Construction for the physically impaired
    (2) On island and peninsular countertops where the countertop is flat across its entire surface (no backsplashes, dividers, etc.) and there are no means to mount a receptacle within 500 mm (20 in.) above the countertop, such as an overhead cabinet.

    End NEC

    Please note the language says that in order to comply with conditions in part 1 and 2, the receptacle can't be lower than 12 inches below the counter top, and the counter top can't overhang more than 6 inches. There is absolutely nothing here pertaining to any other receptacles that may be in the vacinity - in the end of the cabinet or otherwise.

    Now, if you would, detail where in any of this code babble there is anything PROHIBITING a receptacle like the one in the OPs post.

    Last edited by Bill Kriegh; 03-05-2011 at 04:21 PM.

  36. #36
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
    Roger Frazee Guest

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    There isn't. I wouldn't say that it is all that common to be installed in the location shown but there is no code violation that I can squeeze out of any code language back to 1999. As for being installed in the side or end of an island or peninsula I can show you sub-division after sub-division where there are dozens of homes with a gfci receptacle in the end of the peninsula or island serving the counter-top. There is no where else to put the required receptacle. It's very common.


  37. #37
    Guy W Opie's Avatar
    Guy W Opie Guest

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    The outlet is to low, but it might have ben given an exemption based on year it was installed. It is also possible that all the work was done without a permit. It should be noted on the report and maybe futher investigation about whether it was a permited installation is in order. If the wire inside the cabinet is not protected from possible damge that that is another major concern.
    I have always put an outlet on the end of the peninsula end and it was always recessed. I used mc inside cabinet for protection.


  38. #38
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    michigan
    Posts
    421

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Guy, MC & Ac also require protection as all cables do. It is up to the AHJ to determine where and what require additional mechanical protection.

    Normally, mc/ac cable where secured to lay against the rear side of the inside cabinet, is considered protected. There have been times for example, where a drawer side was cut low for pots and pans and would subject the cable to contact from drawer contents. In these cases I would require additional protection.


  39. #39
    Darrel Hood's Avatar
    Darrel Hood Guest

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    Ted is right.

    Darrel Hood
    DILIGENT PROPERTY SERVICES


  40. #40
    Mark T. Denton's Avatar
    Mark T. Denton Guest

    Default Re: Peninsula outlet too low... does it still need GFCI protection?

    All Code BS aside look at it from a common sense view. If it is not protected upstream by a GFCI it is a simple matter to change out the receptical to a GFCI. It makes sense to protect ALL oulets in the vicinity of water or other hazard by a GFCI. I would not "write it up" because the code is actually fuzzy on this point but I would mention it as courtesy to my client. If the dog has a wet nose and decides to plug in his cell phone charger.............


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •