Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 65 of 69
  1. #1
    mathew stouffer's Avatar
    mathew stouffer Guest

    Default Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    This issue has been kicked around before. Do you call out any amount of material inside of a panel.

    Similar Threads:
    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    Inspection Referral SOC

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    3,177

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    That's pretty bad. I'd call it.

    "There is no exception to the rule that every rule has an exception." -James Thurber, writer and cartoonist (1894-1961)
    www.ArnoldHomeInspections.com

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring City/Surrounding Philadelphia area
    Posts
    3,473

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    HA HA!! Looks like somebody tried decorating that panel interior for Christmas. I would definitely call that too. I also call out any construction debris I see inside panel boxes.

    Whenever I see overspray in the panel box, I look at the manufacturer sticker on the deadfront and look for verbiage about paint in panels. The wording the manufacturer uses is pretty clear when it is included.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Chico,Ca
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    A damp rag would remove the spray texture, so I would not get real pushed out of shape* but the tapers were idiots for not masking off properly before shooting it....

    *Still a lack of proper prep on a job, & w/ paint spatter the only option IMO is replacement.


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Lake Barrington, IL
    Posts
    1,363

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    The paint would have to be coating the contact points for the breakers for me to begin to pay attention to it.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    601

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollie Meyers View Post
    A damp rag would remove the spray texture, so I would not get real pushed out of shape* but the tapers were idiots for not masking off properly before shooting it....

    *Still a lack of proper prep on a job, & w/ paint spatter the only option IMO is replacement.
    +1

    We have a jurisdiction here that demands can lights that get texture and/or paint spray inside get replaced. I don't see why lax prep by someone should see anything less when it concerns a panel. Fortunately, all it costs in most cases is another panel as the guts swap easily in most cases.


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Chicago IL
    Posts
    1,984

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    I write the panel as damaged and call for full removal of all foreign materials by licensed electrician or panel replacement. Really pisses developers off.
    That one actually isn't too bad, I might go a little easier if I'm feeling generous that day. The ones I see if sprayed are super sprayed, much worse than that.

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Chico,Ca
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    +1

    We have a jurisdiction here that demands can lights that get texture and/or paint spray inside get replaced. I don't see why lax prep by someone should see anything less when it concerns a panel. Fortunately, all it costs in most cases is another panel as the guts swap easily in most cases.
    That is if the panel is still in production....


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    CO
    Posts
    48

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by mathew stouffer View Post
    This issue has been kicked around before. Do you call out any amount of material inside of a panel.
    What would that amount of drywall compound do to the service panel?

    You don't have to replace the panel because of the over spray, (or a pot light fixture). At worse case you call the electric company and have them shut off the power (for about 10 minutes) to the panel and clean it with a ...... wet rag!

    Have you ever took the cover off a outlet box, light fixture, or a light switch and see the amount of over spray of texture in them?

    No I would not mention this in an inspection report


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Northern, Ca.
    Posts
    81

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollie Meyers View Post
    A damp rag would remove the spray texture, so I would not get real pushed out of shape* but the tapers were idiots for not masking off properly before shooting it....

    *Still a lack of proper prep on a job, & w/ paint spatter the only option IMO is replacement.
    I would have to go along with Rollie on this one not really to bad easy cleanup. Replace the panel, I don't think so Tim


  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    +1

    We have a jurisdiction here that demands can lights that get texture and/or paint spray inside get replaced. I don't see why lax prep by someone should see anything less when it concerns a panel. Fortunately, all it costs in most cases is another panel as the guts swap easily in most cases.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rollie Meyers View Post
    That is if the panel is still in production....
    Or if the interior guts is also sprayed.

    I don't have my codes on my new notebook yet (compatibility problems trying to load them on Windows 7), but the NEC says something about NOT introducing foreign matter, cleaners, etc., into the panel and about contamination, I am also sure that that code section has been posted here before if someone could find it in a search.

    How bad is too bad?

    I agree with Bill: "We have a jurisdiction here that demands can lights that get texture and/or paint spray inside get replaced. I don't see why lax prep by someone should see anything less when it concerns a panel."

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    145

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Replace the panel or interior if possible. I asked 3 manufacturers about 5 years ago and they all said replace if it can not be cleaned with a soft dry rag.
    No abrasives or "damp" water allowed. Only "dry" water..........

    Here is the code:

    Changed From 2005
    110.12(A): Revised to distinguish openings that are not intended to be open from those that provide a function as part of normal equipment operation, and relocated requirement on racking of conductors to Part V of Article 110.

    (B) Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections. Internal parts of electrical equipment, including busbars, wiring terminals, insulators, and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners, abrasives, or corrosive residues. There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; or deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating.


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Chico,Ca
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    If the debris can be removed with plain water, what is the issue? Other then the fact it was not done. That statement/question does not apply where cleaners / chemicals are/were used.


  14. #14
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Barker View Post
    The paint would have to be coating the contact points for the breakers for me to begin to pay attention to it.
    I agree. As long as the safe operation of the panel is not compromised I would not mention it in a report. The pictures show only cosmetic issues.


  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Burnett View Post
    Replace the panel or interior if possible. I asked 3 manufacturers about 5 years ago and they all said replace if it can not be cleaned with a soft dry rag.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rollie Meyers View Post
    If the debris can be removed with plain water, what is the issue?
    The issue is that water is being used as a cleaner (cleaners not allowed), that the panel is being wiped down with water (the manufacturers said "replace if it can not be cleaned with a soft dry rag", which does not include a 'damp or wet' rag - "dry" is the key word there).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Chicago IL
    Posts
    1,984

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Once again I am dismayed by some of the responses here. I can understand if others don't want to be as harsh as I and call for replacement of the panel in the report. Each to his own degree of comfort, that's fine. However, the statements from some that they would not even report this is very disturbing. You may only see it as a cosmetic issue but that is not the case. Will something happen? Probably not, but that isn't your call.
    I am not qualified during a visual assessment of the panel to determine whether the amount of paint/chemicals sprayed into the panel crosses a 'hazard threshold' or not. Is there enough paint in that panel or at such areas within the panel to contribute to overheating or corrosion of components? I don't know. I furthermore do not know the chemical composition of materials spayed into the panel. Water based, oil based, acrylic/chemical based, Is that 'paint' due to its composition prone to act as an insulator, arc generator, or flash fire at temperatures that could be reached at wire connections or breakers? All questions I don't know the answers to or am qualified during a visual assessment to make a determination of.
    For those of you who seem to be that qualified, please enlighten me.
    As Gary pointed out from 05. 1110.12B is still listed in NEC 2011
    For those of you who don't report this, I suggest you start. It isn't your call as to whether its 'cosmetic' or not. Provide the client with the information, let them make the determination.

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring City/Surrounding Philadelphia area
    Posts
    3,473

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Note the verbiage that appears above the bright red DANGER warning.

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  18. #18
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    Once again I am dismayed by some of the responses here. I can understand if others don't want to be as harsh as I and call for replacement of the panel in the report. Each to his own degree of comfort, that's fine. However, the statements from some that they would not even report this is very disturbing. You may only see it as a cosmetic issue but that is not the case. Will something happen? Probably not, but that isn't your call.
    I am not qualified during a visual assessment of the panel to determine whether the amount of paint/chemicals sprayed into the panel crosses a 'hazard threshold' or not. Is there enough paint in that panel or at such areas within the panel to contribute to overheating or corrosion of components? I don't know. I furthermore do not know the chemical composition of materials spayed into the panel. Water based, oil based, acrylic/chemical based, Is that 'paint' due to its composition prone to act as an insulator, arc generator, or flash fire at temperatures that could be reached at wire connections or breakers? All questions I don't know the answers to or am qualified during a visual assessment to make a determination of.
    For those of you who seem to be that qualified, please enlighten me.
    As Gary pointed out from 05. 1110.12B is still listed in NEC 2011
    For those of you who don't report this, I suggest you start. It isn't your call as to whether its 'cosmetic' or not. Provide the client with the information, let them make the determination.
    Don't be dismayed. I am a licensed electrician and often called upon to go behind overzealous HI's to clarify items for buyers and sellers.


  19. #19
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    Note the verbiage that appears above the bright red DANGER warning.
    I notice the warning says petroleum based products and does not mention water base products like is in this panel. I agree that petroleum based products could be a problem as it could dissolve the plastic components.


  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Chicago IL
    Posts
    1,984

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Wow, that is so completely pathetic. You are a licensed electrician and you don't have a problem with crap in a panel. I feel sorry for your clients. You don't seem to be qualified for either job.
    So based on the picture and your chemical engineers degree you are able to discern whether that is water based paint or oil based (petroleum) Kilz. Is that right? Can you tell its not Kilz if you are coming in months later and the smell has off gassed?
    Once again it is NOT your call to decide whether reporting it is overzealous or cosmetic. It is the clients call. Report what you see, that is your job.
    Or is there no space for such important reporting in your 1 hour checkbox report. You should be ashamed of yourself as a so called professional.
    I make it very clear to my clients that most likely nothing will happen. The panel probably won't overheat, arc or anything else. However, technically the panel is defective and the jerk off who made it so should pay for replacement, not them.
    What happens when they go to sell or the municipal inspector comes in and it gets written up by an inspector who cares? Hope your E&O is current and you aren't counting on referrals.

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    145

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    So how about the words "ANY PAINT". You have to read the entire thing .


    Overzealous HI's can be pain. Accurate HI's can also be a pain.


  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring City/Surrounding Philadelphia area
    Posts
    3,473

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Burnett View Post
    So how about the words "ANY PAINT"........
    I agree. The label doesn't delineate certain types of paint. It says specifically "ANY PAINT". Therefore, per the manufacturer, any paint that contacts electrical components inside the panel, regardless of it's chemical makeup, is wrong.

    If an electrician wants to say no biggy after I call it out, that's up to them. I've done my job.

    Last edited by Nick Ostrowski; 03-20-2011 at 11:34 AM.
    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Plano, Texas
    Posts
    145

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    I notice the warning says petroleum based products and does not mention water base products like is in this panel. I agree that petroleum based products could be a problem as it could dissolve the plastic components.
    I don't believe they are worried about the plastic components as much as the electrical bus and conductivity. Why would you want a non conductor (in this case, paint) between the electrical contacts of a breaker and bus bar? I can answer that........you don't!


  24. #24
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    Wow, that is so completely pathetic. You are a licensed electrician and you don't have a problem with crap in a panel. I feel sorry for your clients. You don't seem to be qualified for either job.
    So based on the picture and your chemical engineers degree you are able to discern whether that is water based paint or oil based (petroleum) Kilz. Is that right? Can you tell its not Kilz if you are coming in months later and the smell has off gassed?
    Once again it is NOT your call to decide whether reporting it is overzealous or cosmetic. It is the clients call. Report what you see, that is your job.
    Or is there no space for such important reporting in your 1 hour checkbox report. You should be ashamed of yourself as a so called professional.
    I make it very clear to my clients that most likely nothing will happen. The panel probably won't overheat, arc or anything else. However, technically the panel is defective and the jerk off who made it so should pay for replacement, not them.
    What happens when they go to sell or the municipal inspector comes in and it gets written up by an inspector who cares? Hope your E&O is current and you aren't counting on referrals.
    In NC you are allowed to use your experience to form your opinions if you hold a trade license. If you have no experience to form an opinion then you must refer to a qualified person. That is what you are doing and I appreciate it. You keep me in business. Thanks!

    (c) Home inspectors shall not:
    (1) Offer or perform any act or service contrary to law; or
    (2) Offer or perform engineering, architectural, plumbing, electrical or any other job function requiring an occupational license in the jurisdiction where the inspection is taking place, unless the home inspector holds a valid occupational license, in which case the home inspector shall inform the client that the home inspector is so licensed, and therefore qualified to go beyond this section and perform additional inspections beyond those within the scope of the Standards of Practice.


  25. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Chicago IL
    Posts
    1,984

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Your interpretations once again seem a bit skewed. Without knowing NC law or HI licensing but having a wee bit of experience and common sense, I don't think what you are posting applies.
    Of course this could be my own irrelevant interpretation and you could be completely right. It seems to me though that the line items you posted likely relate to HI's 'working' on a house they inspected later on, rather than pertaining to the actual inspection performance. Hopefully someone with more NC experience will chime in.
    On another note it sounds like you consider your experience to be more important, relevant and superior to that of the NEC compilers and the panel manufacturer. I'm not sure that's a good position to take.
    The NEC and Manuf. clearly see the paint as an issue but you don't. I realize I'm a bit abrasive and annoying but are you sure you don't want to re-evaluate your position on this issue?

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  26. #26
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    Your interpretations once again seem a bit skewed. Without knowing NC law or HI licensing but having a wee bit of experience and common sense, I don't think what you are posting applies.
    Of course this could be my own irrelevant interpretation and you could be completely right. It seems to me though that the line items you posted likely relate to HI's 'working' on a house they inspected later on, rather than pertaining to the actual inspection performance. Hopefully someone with more NC experience will chime in.
    On another note it sounds like you consider your experience to be more important, relevant and superior to that of the NEC compilers and the panel manufacturer. I'm not sure that's a good position to take.
    The NEC and Manuf. clearly see the paint as an issue but you don't. I realize I'm a bit abrasive and annoying but are you sure you don't want to re-evaluate your position on this issue?
    I am not superior to anything...anyone...at anytime...in anyway. I just accept that everything in a house can not be perfect. I have had my electrical license for over 35 years. Every few years the local AHJ gets a new inspector that is gung ho and drives everyone crazy with being "super-inspector". After a year or so they would come down to reality and start using some common sense along with the book sense. I guess that is where the experience comes into play. The panel in the picture got a final inspection and passed so there is at least one other person in the world who agrees with me. This is all an opinion and yours may vary.


  27. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Chicago IL
    Posts
    1,984

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    I feel like this discussion has moved beyond this particular panel.
    Clients hire us to the a full evaluation and provide a complete report as best possible under whatever the circumstances are. If you were to ask clients I don't think they would be keen on giving up their right of choice as part of the process.
    Under my reporting I am giving the client the right and option to choose for themselves how relevant something is or isn't to them. I agree with you James that some HI's tend to inflate things. I would consider it inappropriate to write up the panel as defective and then scream about 'Oh, my god you have to replace that now, it might burn up blah, blah, run, help'. I do consider it however appropriate to list the item as defective and explain the various options to the client. Let's face it James, you are correct in that the likelihood that something will happen is minimal. However it is defective, write it, let the client choose.
    Under your scenario of not reporting a defect you are taking choice away from the client. You are deciding what is or isn't relevant to the client. You are in effect stating, "I know better what is a problem for you or not than you do'. You are taking the clients freedom of choice away from them because YOU don't see a particular issue as relevant, NOT because it is or isn't actually relevant to them. I don't know my clients well enough to know what is relevant to them or not.
    This idea goes along with why HI's aren't supposed to tell clients whether they should or shouldn't buy a particular house. We don' know all the details and history that are important to another person.
    As HI's we have all written defects that, we personally, thought were really no big deal. Whether we wrote them as CYA or because we understood that it was important for the client to know these things doesn't matter. What matters is we wrote the defect and provided the client with the opportunity to exercise the freedom of choice.

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Keller View Post
    It isn't your call as to whether its 'cosmetic' or not.
    Markus,

    I'm glad you brought up the "cosmetic" issue.

    At this weekend's seminar I had several comments regarding "cosmetic" items, my answer was similar to this one (maybe it will open some eyes and cause them to think): The "paint" is not "cosmetic", the COLOR of the paint is cosmetic.

    We do not really care if the paint is white, pink, or purple, it is not the color which is being addressed, it is "the paint" itself.

    This weekend some of my comments were about caulking and sealants and real estate agents stating that the caulking and sealant are "cosmetic", to which I replied "No, *the color* of the caulk and sealant is cosmetic, but the caulk and sealant itself is not cosmetic."

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    Don't be dismayed. I am a licensed electrician and often called upon to go behind overzealous HI's to clarify items for buyers and sellers.
    Don't be dismayed, I am a municipal inspector who all too frequently has to go behind overzealous licensed electrical contractors and clarify why what the licensed electrician did was wrong. The owners appreciate the REAL story and not some self-serving licensed electrician trying to make themselves look good while trying to make home inspectors look bad.

    I doubt you would pass an inspection the first time where I work ... we actually enforce THE CODE, not what some electrician thinks is okay because they do it too.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Lake Barrington, IL
    Posts
    1,363

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Markus my friend, clients expect us to give them guidance. You seem to agree that the overspray is not very significant yet you also seem to be saying it's unacceptable. I use my experience to help determine how I report things and based upon that experience I tend to let somethings slide. These being conditions where I have never seen or heard of a problem for some particular condition what is not exactly to the letter of a particular requirement. This approach has done well for me for the past 18 years.

    If an inspector is pointing out ever little detail that is not to the "t" then I'm not sure that the client is getting "reasonable" information (sorry). What makes it difficult for the inspector is the fear of being sued - and I agree, that hangs over each one of us. But as inspectors, I think that we should be able to stand back a bit, look at the over all picture and be able to form and express our own professional opinions. If you or anyone honestly believes that the overspray is compromising the integrity of the panel then you should report it. Otherwise you should be free to let it go despite any requirement that anything less than sterile is unacceptable. Respectfully submitted.

    Eric Barker, ACI
    Lake Barrington, IL

  31. #31
    Norm Grande's Avatar
    Norm Grande Guest

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Anybody notice the overheating?? on the neutral. Looks like connection should be checked.


  32. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Chicago IL
    Posts
    1,984

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Sorry Eric, I have to disagree with that approach. Will something happen to that or most panels that have received paint spray? Probably not. That however isn't the issue. It's not my call or level of expertise to determine the hazard level to such an extent that I would choose not to report it because 'I' don't think its a problem. For me paint in a panel is a defect and the amount of paint can cause problems as stated in previous posts.
    A lot of the safety concerns we look at in homes are about odds and percentages. Are the odds higher or lower that something will happen due to a particular deficiency in a component? In this case the odds are probably towards the lower end. Nonetheless the panel is defective. Look at the NEC and Manufacturer information. It's pretty clear.
    Some people seem to be saying that whether they report something or not is based on how THEY perceive that defect and how serious of a defect THEY consider it. I'm sorry but I consider that the absolutely wrong approach.
    Write what you see, period. I would not allow anyone under my guidance to do any less. To make arbitrary decisions about whether to write a seen defect or not based on your personal prejudices should not be a way of doing inspections.
    I was trained by salty old timers that could be called the JP's of Chicago. I adhere to that philosophy. I write every little thing. I check doors to see if they open and close smoothly, if the latch doesn't engage the strike properly, it gets written up. Missing screens on windows, write it.
    I've had clients tell me 'they could rehab their house just using my defect list'. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
    On a side note, I do a lot of rehab cost estimates. People are always shocked how the numbers add up. There is another aspect to not writing everything you see. When you don't write 'every little thing' you are also providing the client with a false financial impression of the property. All those little things can easily add a few more thousand $ to short term work needed. For some buyers this can sway their decision to buy or not.
    I met with a father and son at a building yesterday. Dad is trying to get the son into the Biz. Son kept dismissing all the little things I was pointing out. Dad understood and stated those little things can't be overlooked. 3 unit building Dad figured pushing $10K for all the little stuff everywhere.
    So when you decide not to report the little things, you may be providing less of an informed picture to the client than you realize.
    Nice catch on the wire Norm. But who cares its only cosmetic ...........

    Last edited by Markus Keller; 03-22-2011 at 07:50 AM. Reason: add line
    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Northern, Ca.
    Posts
    81

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Barker View Post
    Markus my friend, clients expect us to give them guidance. You seem to agree that the overspray is not very significant yet you also seem to be saying it's unacceptable. I use my experience to help determine how I report things and based upon that experience I tend to let somethings slide. These being conditions where I have never seen or heard of a problem for some particular condition what is not exactly to the letter of a particular requirement. This approach has done well for me for the past 18 years.

    If an inspector is pointing out ever little detail that is not to the "t" then I'm not sure that the client is getting "reasonable" information (sorry). What makes it difficult for the inspector is the fear of being sued - and I agree, that hangs over each one of us. But as inspectors, I think that we should be able to stand back a bit, look at the over all picture and be able to form and express our own professional opinions. If you or anyone honestly believes that the overspray is compromising the integrity of the panel then you should report it. Otherwise you should be free to let it go despite any requirement that anything less than sterile is unacceptable. Respectfully submitted.
    Eric, I like your comments and I can see why this approach as worked for you for the past 18yrs.


  34. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Chicago IL
    Posts
    1,984

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Eric my friend time to start watching your back. Now you've got a Nachi guy endorsing you. Be careful, the ASHI guys may have to take you out to the parking lot at the next meeting.

    www.aic-chicago.com
    773/844-4AIC
    "The Code is not a ceiling to reach but a floor to work up from"

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,777

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    Note the verbiage that appears above the bright red DANGER warning.
    Would be nice if all panels had the same warning. Would reduce arguments as to why a comment is made about panel being contaminated.

    It is all about degree of contamination and it is ultimately up to the client as how they view the condition.
    By Code one speck of pint in the panel would then have the panel contaminated.
    Though it would not affect the function of that panel.
    It should be be reported as technically contaminated. And should be corrected.
    How it is corrected is a different mater for discussion.

    Norm,
    Could the discoloration be due to anti-oxidant used instead of overheating ?

    Markus,
    Many States restrict what/how an inspector can comment on what they find.
    An HI holding a Building Contractor Lic has the presumed expertise in that area as does a Lic Electrician in his own area. As an inspector it is common to refer an item found to a professional in that area for further evaluation. The inspector has to be able to demonstrate their expertise for it to be valid. Just looking at 100 rotten decks does not make the inspector qualified to speak to how the repair should performed. That is the province of the Licensed Building Contractor.


  36. #36
    James Duffin's Avatar
    James Duffin Guest

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Don't be dismayed, I am a municipal inspector who all too frequently has to go behind overzealous licensed electrical contractors and clarify why what the licensed electrician did was wrong. The owners appreciate the REAL story and not some self-serving licensed electrician trying to make themselves look good while trying to make home inspectors look bad.

    I doubt you would pass an inspection the first time where I work ... we actually enforce THE CODE, not what some electrician thinks is okay because they do it too.
    That is why you don't have the final say. You work for me...the taxpayer. You need to remember that!


  37. #37
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    That is why you don't have the final say. You work for me...the taxpayer. You need to remember that!
    I work for ALL the taxpayers, NOT ones who try to take short cuts, the OTHER taxpayers pay me to catch you guys. YOU need to remember that.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  38. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,546

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Don't be dismayed, I am a municipal inspector who all too frequently has to go behind overzealous licensed electrical contractors and clarify why what the licensed electrician did was wrong. The owners appreciate the REAL story and not some self-serving licensed electrician trying to make themselves look good while trying to make home inspectors look bad.

    I doubt you would pass an inspection the first time where I work ... we actually enforce THE CODE, not what some electrician thinks is okay because they do it too.
    Jerry, is it true that most of your work is in new construction, where you work at bringing up the level of competence among the local tradesman?
    Was your perspective a little different when you were inspecting older homes and saw overspray in a 20 year old panel?

    I know when I inspect new construction, the focus is different for me. We have the builder close at hand, and we make a point of having the faults corrected, right down to the paint blemishes. I agree, there should be no overspray whatsoever in a new home, and if there is, we can report it and prevent reoccurrences.

    Older house, clients have less stringent expectations. Nobody is coming back to clean off the overspray for free. Should it be mentioned in the report for CYA? That becomes a judgment call. I side with Eric on that one. No visible sign of deteriorating insulation. No visibly compromised connections. What's the issue? The client want to know, do I need a repair?

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  39. #39
    Guy W Opie's Avatar
    Guy W Opie Guest

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    While I am not a HI, I am a licensed electrical contractor and inspector. I would not have passed this, but since has been, it is up to the HI to point out these type of items. If the buyer or seller wants to call in a qualified professional and the say it is ok, than the responsibilty of issue has been passed.


  40. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring City/Surrounding Philadelphia area
    Posts
    3,473

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy W Opie View Post
    While I am not a HI, I am a licensed electrical contractor and inspector. I would not have passed this, but since has been, it is up to the HI to point out these type of items. If the buyer or seller wants to call in a qualified professional and the say it is ok, than the responsibilty of issue has been passed.
    This is precisely the reason it needs to be mentioned to the client and noted in the report. While James said earlier this type of situation is not an issue to him, Guy said it is an issue to him. Two different electricians, two different opinions. Which opinion will your client get when they have an electrician come make repairs inside the panel for other defects you did note in your report? And how is the electrician going to react if the client says their inspector made no mention of the paint and there is no mention of it in the report? They can make you sound incompetent, talk the client into a brand new service panel, and try to get you stuck with the bill.

    I called out a service panel once that needed 10 throws of the hand to deenergize the panel. I spoke out loud of it to the client and put it in the report. After taking possession of the house, the client had an electrician come in to make some other repairs. The electrician looked at the panel and said it violates the 6 throws of the hand rule, said the inspector should have caught this, and said inspectors carry insurance to pay for their screw ups. Soooooo, without the client ever actually referencing the report again, he called me to see if I had insurance to pay for a new panel. Dude......read your friggin' report. Did you ever read it??? Page 6, INTERIOR ELECTRICAL NOTES, it's there in black and white and with accompanying pics.

    Even though I covered my butt in this situation, the client was convinced by the electrician I did something wrong.

    Last edited by Nick Ostrowski; 03-24-2011 at 07:24 AM.
    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  41. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Southern Vancouver Island
    Posts
    4,546

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    This is precisely the reason it needs to be mentioned to the client and noted in the report. While James said earlier this type of situation is not an issue to him, Guy said it is an issue to him. Two different electricians, two different opinions. Which opinion will your client get when they have an electrician come make repairs inside the panel for other defects you did note in your report? And how is the electrician going to react if the client says their inspector made no mention of the paint and there is no mention of it in the report? They can make you sound incompetent, talk the client into a brand new service panel, and try to get you stuck with the bill.
    Then there was the sparky who fixed this condo panel, as well as the one next door. All good now. See pic below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    I called out a service panel once that needed 10 throws of the hand to deenergize the panel. I spoke out loud of it to the client and put it in the report. After taking possession of the house, the client had an electrician come in to make some other repairs. The electrician looked at the panel and said it violates the 6 throws of the hand rule, said the inspector should have caught this, and said inspectors carry insurance to pay for their screw ups. Soooooo, without the client ever actually referencing the report again, he called me to see if I had insurance to pay for a new panel. Dude......read your friggin' report. Did you ever read it??? Page 6, INTERIOR ELECTRICAL NOTES, it's there in black and white and with accompanying pics.

    Even though I covered my butt in this situation, the client was convinced by the electrician I did something wrong.
    Funny, but sad too. Does that make you wonder why you work late, missing the hockey game and quality time with the family, to get that flashy report back to the client ASAP?

    ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images ***IMPORTANT*** You Need To Register To View Images
    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  42. #42
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    1,258

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Ostrowski View Post
    Soooooo, without the client ever actually referencing the report again, he called me to see if I had insurance to pay for a new panel. Dude......read your friggin' report. Did you ever read it???
    That is classic.

    Jim Robinson
    New Mexico, USA

  43. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kogel View Post
    Jerry, is it true that most of your work is in new construction, where you work at bringing up the level of competence among the local tradesman?
    That is what I do now, mostly, yes, but about half is new construction and half is existing structures with mechanical unit change-out, re-roofing, replacing electrical services, panels, remodeling, etc., but, yes, for the municipality.

    I also still do consulting work when it comes in, just not for or against any contractor who works in our town (the town is quite small, so that has not been a problem as most of my consulting work is over in Orlando (50+ miles from here).

    Was your perspective a little different when you were inspecting older homes and saw overspray in a 20 year old panel?
    Nope. I started calling those out probably 10-15 years ago after showing some photos to the Chief Electrical Code Official in Broward County Rules and Appeals, he wanted to know where the panels were located (the panels were in new construction) so he could give a refresher course to the inspectors in that area, and the inspectors started requiring replacement of those panels, thus I started writing up *all* panels with overspray in them and calling for their replace, even on old homes. I even replaced my Zinsco spray painted panel at my house.

    Older house, clients have less stringent expectations. Nobody is coming back to clean off the overspray for free. Should it be mentioned in the report for CYA? That becomes a judgment call. I side with Eric on that one. No visible sign of deteriorating insulation. No visibly compromised connections. What's the issue? The client want to know, do I need a repair?
    Call for replacement, it is not within your power to "require" the panels replacement. If ... when ... there is a fire or some other problem with that panel, or when they go to sell a few years later and the next inspector writes it up for replacement - their panicky call of 'Why didn't you tell me ... ' is met with 'I did, right here on page ... , you even told me you were going to ask for a credit for it, remember?'

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  44. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Spring City/Surrounding Philadelphia area
    Posts
    3,473

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Robinson View Post
    That is classic.
    Jim, the best part is the client is a friend of ours. After turning two houses upside down for him (with a friendship discount thrown in on both inspections), that's what I get.

    Unbelievable.

    "It takes a big man to cry. It takes an even bigger man to laugh at that man". - Jack Handey

  45. #45
    Norm Grande's Avatar
    Norm Grande Guest

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Good call. I believe it may well be anti-oxidant. Which then makes me ask. Is there antiox on all the aluminum wires, as required. I hadn't noticed the aluminum wiring initially, but you can see the aluminum ground wires. This isn't an issue, just needs the No-alox or other anti-oxidant used on it.

    Norm

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Would be nice if all panels had the same warning. Would reduce arguments as to why a comment is made about panel being contaminated.

    It is all about degree of contamination and it is ultimately up to the client as how they view the condition.
    By Code one speck of pint in the panel would then have the panel contaminated.
    Though it would not affect the function of that panel.
    It should be be reported as technically contaminated. And should be corrected.
    How it is corrected is a different mater for discussion.

    Norm,
    Could the discoloration be due to anti-oxidant used instead of overheating ?

    Markus,
    Many States restrict what/how an inspector can comment on what they find.
    An HI holding a Building Contractor Lic has the presumed expertise in that area as does a Lic Electrician in his own area. As an inspector it is common to refer an item found to a professional in that area for further evaluation. The inspector has to be able to demonstrate their expertise for it to be valid. Just looking at 100 rotten decks does not make the inspector qualified to speak to how the repair should performed. That is the province of the Licensed Building Contractor.



  46. #46
    John Steinke's Avatar
    John Steinke Guest

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    I might suggest that everyone get aquainted with the term 'de minimus.' That's the doctrine that, among other things, lets you round things off on your tax returns- and protects you from +1mph speeding tickets.

    This panel is more the rule than the exception. If that's the worst you've seen, you have lived a charmed life. I don't see any problem to lose sleep over.


  47. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Chico,Ca
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Grande View Post
    Good call. I believe it may well be anti-oxidant. Which then makes me ask. Is there antiox on all the aluminum wires, as required. I hadn't noticed the aluminum wiring initially, but you can see the aluminum ground wires. This isn't an issue, just needs the No-alox or other anti-oxidant used on it.

    Norm

    Please show me where anti-ox is required. The NEC does not & the only way it is required is if the manufacturers instructions state to use it. 110.3(B)


  48. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,777

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollie Meyers View Post
    Please show me where anti-ox is required. The NEC does not & the only way it is required is if the manufacturers instructions state to use it. 110.3(B)
    Rollie,
    My question/observation on anti-oxidant was only directed at the possible alternative cause of the discoloration on the neutral in the box.

    My understand is with Alum wire you should use an anti-oxidant as it doesn't hurt, unless if it is not already included in the connection mechanism then not needed.


  49. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Chico,Ca
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Rollie,
    My question/observation on anti-oxidant was only directed at the possible alternative cause of the discoloration on the neutral in the box.

    My understand is with Alum wire you should use an anti-oxidant as it doesn't hurt, unless if it is not already included in the connection mechanism then not needed.
    My point is that unless manufacturers instrutions call for it's use, it is not required, but I do use it but in most cases it is not required, but it a disservice to say something is required when it is not.


  50. #50
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by John Steinke View Post
    I might suggest that everyone get aquainted with the term 'de minimus.' That's the doctrine that, among other things, lets you round things off on your tax returns- and protects you from +1mph speeding tickets.
    John,

    "I might suggest that everyone get acquainted with the term 'de minimus.' "

    I suggest you get acquainted with the code as that is the " 'de minimus.' " one is allowed to get by with, and that " 'de minimus.' " code says *dat overspray ain't allowed*.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  51. #51
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Mat,

    YES, and not just "panels" but any internal parts of electrical equipment, including bus bars, wiring terminals, insulators, and other surfaces, which are damaged or contaminated by foreign materials, such as paint, plaster, cleansers, abrasives, or corrosive residues!

    Since most aren't using the most up-to-date safety codes/standards, I'll reference 2008 NEC Sect. 110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work:

    Quote Originally Posted by 2008 NEC
    110.12(B) Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections. Internal parts of electrical equipment, including busbars, wiring terminals, insulators, and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleansers, abrasives, or corrosive residues. There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; or deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating.
    Not only does presence of anything upon something temperature rated effect (i.e. insulate - causing "hot spots", inability to put-off heat, further reflect heat, etc.) equipment, (especially of issue in service equipment) but plaster, texturing, concrete, etc. "cure" with a heat generating chemical reaction, and when exposed to moisture after curing, for example gypcrete, gypsum board, texturing break down and release hydrogen sulf, paints, etc. often also contain pigmenting/base such as zinc oxide which reflects heat, some paints so as to resist scrubing, etc. have ceramics (insulate), many cured paints are moisture/vapor barriers when cured (trapped moisture/condensation) which when "boiling" can split insulation on conductors. Solvents and residues often damaging to thermoplastics, plastics, etc. which make brittle (wire nuts, breaker mouldings, etc. and generally are not high temperature "paints" which are combustible at lower temperatures, and in some cases are conductive. Foreign materials can effect ability to function such as trip, etc. The pictured contamination at some of the grounding wires entrance/teminals may be creating resistance to the connection to the buss in addition to trapping heat for ex. AL is esp. subject to contact pitting/corrosion when in contact with caustic material +water +air (grnd).

    There are many reasons why the pictured (by OP) is safety issue and why the code speaks out about it in many areas, in many areas the actual listing standards for listed equipment further speaks to the issues.

    The subsection quoted above applies to ALL electrical installations. Especially critical in service equipment and OCPD equipment regarding short circuit and protection ratings.

    There is noted scortching or similar temperature event suspect discoloration on the main busses (above behind the main lugs) noted presense of MCB retention bracket, yet MLO configuration, Paint or other flecks on the primary busses, the mains lugs, grounding bus bar, the neutral buss, and discoloration of the incoming grounded conductor just above the main lug. Appears to be some splatter upon some of the MCCBs as well. These are critical defects.









    The equipment has already been operated post-contamination, and has lost its "listed" status due to the contamination. Attempt to clean/replace and repair and have a certified testing lab representative conduct a "field evaluation" and re-label (very expensive and not likely to pass), OR replace the damaged and contaminated equipment with new listed equipment are the options. The second option is the cheaper one (by far!).

    I might add that the foreign substances themselves, are abrasive by nature - so rubbing them with a "soft cloth" can STILL further damage/abraid/scratch/weaken/lessen ability to resist corrosion/etc. the equipment (even at a microscopic level).

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-26-2011 at 01:05 PM.

  52. #52
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    That bar is not a retainer for the circuit breaker. It is a jumper between the two busses.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  53. #53
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    California
    Posts
    94

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    John,

    "I might suggest that everyone get acquainted with the term 'de minimus.' "

    I suggest you get acquainted with the code as that is the " 'de minimus.' " one is allowed to get by with, and that " 'de minimus.' " code says *dat overspray ain't allowed*.
    John Steinke,
    Don't answer Peck, it will just get worse.


  54. #54
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bertrams View Post
    John Steinke,
    Don't answer Peck, it will just get worse.
    David,

    You are apparently new to the forum as John and I have debated various topics for many years without your interruptions.

    But, if you would like to debate something between the two of us, or even the three of us, jump right in, but just because you fail to learn when shown that you are wrong does not mean you should stop a discourse between John and myself.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  55. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,777

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Jerry, HG.
    Is the interior of a wall receptical box considered electrical equipment?
    Or is it an electrical component?


  56. #56
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Jerry, HG.
    Is the interior of a wall receptical box considered electrical equipment?
    Or is it an electrical component?
    IT DEPENDS. The "interior" reference is completely ambiguous. The "box", "enclosure" or "can" itself may be both, neither, or partially/both depending on what you are refering. If connected to the premises wiring (system) it may be considered a component thereof. If the "box" itself listed, labeled, identified as equipment or a "recognized component"...etc. or as an overall assembly. As far as the distinction "interior" this again is ambiguous and questionably necessary to reference. Unknown/unclear if you inquire about the 'air space' or volume within, the interior surface, or The box itself - or why you use the word "interior". what distinction are you trying to make?

    Please use precise terminology and clear references in forming your question(s).

    I suggest you review the definitions in Article 100 of the NEC. Your question is vague, as is your use the terms "box", "electrical equipment" and "electrical component". ReceptACLE(s) may be incorporated for example into "multioutlet assemblies" or multioutlet assembly systems, which may or may not be installed flush, and may or may not be fully assembled at the factory; further examples may include "power outlet(s)" and other such, which may or may not be classified or listed as installed, and may be installed flush. I can think of a number of additional examples, and without assumptions as to clarification(s) of your intended question, demonstrate the multitude of potential responses.

    Suggested review includes (2008 references as example):

    Device,
    Enclosure,
    Equipment,
    Guarded,
    Identified,
    Labeled,
    Lighting Outlet,
    Listed,
    Multioutlet Assembly,
    Outlet,
    Power Outlet,
    Premises Wiring (System),
    Raceway,
    Receptacle,
    Receptacle Outlet,
    Utilization Equipment.

    Then, if necessary review some of the appropriate sections in Chapters 1, 2, 3 & 4.

    If after having done so, you still have the question, perhaps starting your own topic might be better.

    I would further suggest that you review information at UL.com regarding "recognized component", "classified" and "listed" (pertaining to assemblies, devices and systems) distinctions with significant differences.

    I would also suggest you acquire a "White Book" or familiarize yourself with the UL On-Line directories and product identification, marking, labeling guides, etc. Can be most clear if you identify via a UL category code to what you refer.

    Also, note your having lamented that all such panels may not be so labeled regarding foreign matter within - the general statement appears in the code as provided earlier, specific similar statements appear in specific sections, as they also appear or are cross referenced, in the standards for the testing, labeling, installation, use, limitations, of such equipment.

    The section I quoted earlier, please review again, for if your latest post is in some way a follow-up, you may be chasing a distinction which does not exist. Please again note the bolded title of the subsection - which includes without punctuation "..and Connections." The line of demark within listed equipment or between equipment materials or assemblies is not relevant, the functions, purposes, exposures, and protections, standards for events (intended, or not) are - regards the installation temporary or otherwise, and connection to or utilization of.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-27-2011 at 09:53 AM.

  57. #57
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    1,898

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Gary,

    I understood your question to be asking about paint overspray on a standard device box that would typically hold a switch or receptacle. Is this the question that was so hard to discern? Are you asking only about the box or the box and the wiring contained therein?

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  58. #58
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    601

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES Watson, the guy wants to know if drywall mud or paint in a device box is an issue. Since the device goes inside the box, over spray on the exterior wouldn't be a problem. That leaves the "interior", inside the box - (to you, that is everything thats not an exposed surface on the exterior of the box) as the place in question.

    I think wall box is self explanitory, and a box to install a receptacle in is implied (this would now be a DEVICE BOX, which by definition is also an outlet), but I can provide more help to you if you can't figure it out


    interioradjective
    1. being within; inside of anything; internal; inner; further toward a center
    2. of or pertaining to that which is within; inside.

    exterior-adjective
    1. outer; being on the outer side: the exterior surface;

    Device. A unit of an electrical system that carries or controls
    electric energy as its principal function. (2011 NEC)

    boxnoun
    1. a container, case, or receptacle, usually rectangular, of wood, metal, cardboard, etc., and often with a lid or removable cover

    Simple question, simple answer. Think you can take it from here or is more 'splainin' necessary?


  59. #59
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    "Kreigh":

    Gary Sorrell's question addressed to Jerry and myself (which I quoted in my reply to same, so as to be clear as to exactly what I was addressing), says absolutely NOTHING about plaster, paint, or anything else in that regard.

    For whatever reason you, as usual, take it to your own narrow vision and limited assumptions, and fail to follow the actual flow of a conversation and expanding topical discussions.

    Actually your presumptive and assumptive "simple answer" is not completely or entirely correct, and you have demonstrated a huge amount of assumptions and presumptions regarding just WHAT G.S. actually wrote or specifically was asking in the question posted.

    However, you did not answer his question which was phrased as an either/or type response to be provided, and instead spouted quite a bit of erroneous information in the form of assumptions and generalizations which are defectively conclusionary.

    The phrase "interior componants" comes/came from (introduced in this topic string - and the subsequent use of "interior") the labeled warning upon a pre-manufactured load center (pictured) and not an "in the wall" installed "outlet box". Prior to that the discussion used words such as "inside", and "in". The universal Code citation I quoted, uses "inside" not "interior".

    Materials upon the surface of a "box" interior or exterior MAY be of issue. You as usual have assumed the use of a wire for grounding, ignored the possibility of a self-grounding reliant upon contact to a conductive box (mounting screw not sufficient), or ignored the possiblity of an extention ring or plaster ring, or installation through a combustible surface, and a whole host of other possiblitites suggested by the mere ambiguous of G.S.'s phrasing of his most recent post; which if being posed by one engaged in the practice/profession of professional home inspection, should be phrased using correct and precise terms, and parameters, and as has been sugested, perhaps more appropriately upon a fresh topic string if designed or generating more off-topic discussion/debate.

    ASSUME you have to great extreme, "Mr." Kreigh, to have devined with such specificity what G.S. was referring to, in your oh-so-condensending post. G.S. has contributed several times upon this post/topic string and injected such things as his thoughts on anti-ox, etc. You so very often have a tendancy to LEAP to narrow assumptions and make grand overt generalizations opining same as universal edicts, often incorrectly so.

    I am fully aware of what the correct terms are, and the application of the Code, Standards, etc. which apply. G.S. is apparently NOT, nor apparently was not able to "devine" the meaning of the term "equipment" as referenced in the previously supplied citation and quote.

    I directed to sources of suggested reading and self-education so HE could realize the distinctions with differences himself, and form a proper question to acquire the information specific to the actual application, circumstance or scenerio HE invisioned as he posed "the question".

    Unlike you, "Kreigh", I know much, but do not presume to know what exactly is in the mind of another, and choose to intentionally be as accurate and precise in a reply and not make incorrect, incomplete, or overreaching overbroad erroneous generalizations; especially when directing a response to one with unknown experience or knowledge in a particular area who has posed a specifically directed (to Jerry and myself) "follow-up" question. As phrased and in the sequence of posts made upon this topic string, there are no "givens" regarding just what G.S. "knows" or doesn't "know" nor what exactly he is asking about precisely what/which materials.

    Paint and/or plaster foreign to the "equipment" such as an outlet box, may indeed be of issue, conductive or non-conductive as it may for example further insulate the box and prevent it from off-putting heat, plug a designed ventillation area, interfere with a terminal (ex. grounding screw) connection, or intefere with the connection of a clamp, locknut, etc. securely to the box itself, be additionally combustible or flamable, cause deterioration of the box such as brittle baklite or plastics, or corrosion - such zinc'd steel box, for example -- IT DEPENDS on the situation and extent of the particular "hypothetical" series of specifics and the consequences.


    The code citation I quoted used language "internal" "parts" of "electrical equipment" and "other" "surfaces". G.S. addressed the question to Jerry and myself, and "interior" "componants" were words used by G.S.. The code section quoted earlier, covers more than just paint, plaster, texture overspray contamination of equipment - it covers other foreign materials also, and including materials foreign to the system itself, as well.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-27-2011 at 12:55 PM.

  60. #60
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ormond Beach, Florida
    Posts
    26,248

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Jerry, HG.
    Is the interior of a wall receptical box considered electrical equipment?
    Or is it an electrical component?
    "Equipment", the box itself is "equipment", the side of the box is part of that equipment.

    Electrical "equipment" refers to that equipment which is used in an electrical installation.

    The NEC definition of "equipment" should answer your question:
    - Equipment. A general term, including material, fittings, devices, appliances, luminaires, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation.

    The above, however, does not really address the issue of contamination, this does: (underlining and bold are mine)
    - 110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work.
    - - (B) Integrity of Electrical Equipment and Connections. Internal parts of electrical equipment, including busbars, wiring terminals, insulators, and other surfaces, shall not be damaged or contaminated by foreign materials such as paint, plaster, cleaners, abrasives, or corrosive residues. There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken; bent; cut; or deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating.

    Notice that the second sentence addresses the same things but with different wording, yet the outcome would be the same. The first sentence says that the part(s) "shall not be" damaged, etc.; while the second sentence states "there shall be no" damaged part(s).

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  61. #61
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    601

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    "ASSUME you have to great extreme, "Mr." Kriegh, to have divined with such specificity what G.S. was referring to, in your oh-so-condescending post. G.S. has contributed several times upon this post/topic string and injected such things as his thoughts on anti-ox, etc. You so very often have a tendency to LEAP to narrow assumptions and make grand overt generalizations opining same as universal edicts, often incorrectly so."


    Yes, I tend to take questions asked at face value and not treat the people who post here, other than one in particular, like they're as dumb as a board.

    My post wasn't meant to be condescending, it was meant to give you the incentive to actually answer a question and provide documentation to back it up for once instead of giving you the opportunity to cut and paste, ad nauseam, facts totally unrelated to the matter at hand. And, as usual, an answer doesn't appear to be forthcoming.

    Oh yeah, Watson, it's i before e except after c. Fixed that for ya too.


  62. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    2,777

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Sorrells View Post
    Jerry, HG.
    Is the interior of a wall receptical box considered electrical equipment?
    Or is it an electrical component?
    Jerry and HG,
    I will now apologize now for what I have done with my question. SORRY ! No harm intended.


    I inherently knew that I would start something with how I stated the question. And I also knew that others would be drawn into a discussion and some disharmony would result.
    The reasoning behind my question had two functions.
    1) To pose a question in a simplistic manor as others may have looked at an installation and possibly have had issues with a determination of it being satisfactory.(I will explain later).
    2) A little sadistic humor on my part as I knew I would receive a harsh response and possibly draw others into the verbal whipping that I knew was coming.

    Where I was headed with the question was the use of the term "equipment" when combined with the term "electrical" to yield "electrical equipment". I directed the question to Jerry and HG as I somewhat knew how they would structure their responses.

    The contaminated service panel in the original post brought this thought to mind as I have had criticism/discussions as to how to best interpret certain situations.

    The scenario:
    HI finds a single gang box (metal/plastic) that is used for a wall outlet/switch in a residential application. The box during construction was installed to be flush with the wall and wire (14/2) run to that box as a rough in . The walls (drywall) around the box had been installed with textured plaster and then painted, resulting in some paint and plaster to be spattered on the interior of that box. Subsequently the 120A outlet/switch was installed and attached to the box and a face plate installed. The outlet/switch did not have any foreign material applied to them, but the box and wire in that box had paint and plaster on it. (not sure that that is enough clarification HG but I tried.)

    The box, wire, switch and plate make up the installation. Individually each is a component (material item) of the installation.

    When you combine the definition of "equipment" with
    "110.12 Mechanical Execution of Work. .....- - (B) Integrity of Electrical Equipment"
    and "...contaminated by foreign materials,...."

    Would it be safe to say that the outlet/switch is considered electrical equipment and would be considered to be defective and in need of replacement? As compares to a contaminated service panel ?

    If intact the wiring passed the rough in inspection. Does that make any difference?

    Then take the position that during a remodel is when the contamination took place, but the HI has no way to know when the contamination took place. What would you say?

    In the real world we find things in various states. At times it makes a real difference then other times it makes no real practical difference.

    This is more about technical determinations and how to phrase the interpretation of what was found..


  63. #63
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Fredericksburg, VA
    Posts
    885

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Quote Originally Posted by James Duffin View Post
    I notice the warning says petroleum based products and does not mention water base products like is in this panel. I agree that petroleum based products could be a problem as it could dissolve the plastic components.
    I saw that too then noticed that it says "... and ANY paint ...".

    One of the hard things about being a HI is that you can count on some tradesperson poo-pooing an issue because, "that's the way it's been done for umpteen years." Or, the HI was being a jerk, or the HI didn't know what he (or she) was talking about. I just had a contractor tell me that flashing enclosures that pass through vinyl siding isn't required because they are "self flashed". Uh - yes, for channeled devices under the 2003 IRC. But he obviously hasn't bothered with updating to 2006 IRC yet. Virginia runs about 2 years behind an IRC change to allow builders to voice their opinions and argue for changes. Just going to modified 2009 codes this month

    The above statements are expressed solely as my opinion and in all probability will conflict with someone else's.
    Stu, Fredericksburg VA

  64. #64
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Snowbird (this means I'm retired and migrate between locations), FL/MI
    Posts
    4,086

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    Gary Sorrells,

    You make a point of referencing the home in question passed rough-in electrical inspection. Irrelevant with regards to your indication that paint, texture, and/or other foreign (note "e" before "i" ) materials present within the outlet box, upon the wiring insulation, and apparently also contaminating the various devices (also equipment) attached to the premises wiring system, and installed to those "boxes".

    Rough-in electrical inspections are generally performed while the wall cavities are exposed, paint, texture, wall finishes are generally installed after a rough-in inspection, electrical (closing the walls "post" inspection). Further, many AHJ's accept electrical contractor's "certification" upon follow-up inspections, rarely, IF EVER, do they "visually inspect" each and every installation or location of an outlet, and sadly, it is even rarer that they even perform a "few" spot checks, some may never leave their vehicle for a progress inspection . Never is an AHJ responsible, nor liable, to inspect, verify, or approve each and every detail of construction. So regards to what ever AHJ inspections have been performed, in the past, on your subject questions, it is irrelevant. It is also irrevelant regards to defects, or safety issues what code inspector has visited a property, you find an item in need of evaluation, in need of repair, in need of correction, or a defect, it requires reporting.

    It is further irrelevant to the HI as to the timing or "who is to blame", the sequence of past events, or devining the history as to "when" the defect condition arose. It is only relevant that the discovered condition exists; that it is a reportable condition, a defect as to safety of persons and property, which should be corrected; that you discovered/observed it, that you may have further investigated additional outlets than you otherwise may have had you not discovered this condition (expect so); and properly report/disclose same. See a condition, memorialize it and report it appropriately. HI is a "snapshot" inspection and report "of the conditions at the time of inspection".

    It matters not the "type" of "paint" upon the wiring insulation, the device(s) or the box, plaster ring, etc. It is foreign to the premises wiring system - it doesn't belong there (examples as to why and how such deteriorates have already been provded, such as retaining heat, chemical actions upon the insulation, plastic, or metal surfaces, etc.). It is not required for the HI to bring forth all of the historical data which were considered to develop the language of the Code article subsection or justify its safety standard. You will find similar language relative to the "issue" or "question" you have raised regarding this safety defect (NEC = NFPA 70) in the NFPA publication writen as a standard for the electrical inspection of existing dwellings (NFPA 73).

    Already provided the NEC (NFPA 70) citation and quoted it, and Jerry has repeated it. General definitiions cited from Chapter 1. Chapters 1-4 apply in general.


  65. #65
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    WESTMINSTER CO
    Posts
    1,089

    Default Re: Drywall/paint over spray inside panel

    OLD THREAD

    but found this today--guess this is too much paint--thats how i wrote it up

    chas


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •