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Thread: GFCI issue

  1. #1
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    Default GFCI issue


    In a '96 townhome, I found the bathroom and exterior receptacle circuits fed by one breaker( incorrectly tapped as well). Both circuits receptacles are protected by a single GFCI installed under the panel.


    Should the bathroom and exterior receptacles each have their own GFCI circuit?

    The picture shows how the put both wires on one side which is wrong.

    Again, my main question is, the bathroom and ext receps need their own circuit and GFCI, correct?

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  2. #2
    Ted Menelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: GFCI issue

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    In a '96 townhome, I found the bathroom and exterior receptacle circuits fed by one breaker( incorrectly tapped as well). Both circuits receptacles are protected by a single GFCI installed under the panel.


    Should the bathroom and exterior receptacles each have their own GFCI circuit?

    The picture shows how the put both wires on one side which is wrong.

    Again, my main question is, the bathroom and ext receps need their own circuit and GFCI, correct?
    There cannot be other receptacles being protected by the bathroom GFCI receptacle .... NOW.

    One note

    Is it common for you to unplug a breaker from the panel. For a home inspection I never have and sure I never will.

    But it used to be extremely common, and almost always, that the exterior and bathroom were on one GFCI or 2 if the home was larger.


  3. #3
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    Default Re: GFCI issue

    Unplugging breakers is not common for me. Never in an occupied house. This one was unoccupied.


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    Default Re: GFCI issue

    John, it depends on the code version the house was built under. One GFCI for the whole house was once legitimate and as you know, just because the house was built in '96 does not mean it was under that code since municipalities are notoriously slow at adopting the latest codes. But the double tap before the GFCI outlet means there is no GFCI protection on the other circuit, worth mentioning and getting it checked out when the fix the double tap.
    Jerry can you re-post your chart for GFCI evolution?

    Jim Luttrall
    www.MrInspector.net
    Plano, Texas

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    Default Re: GFCI issue

    Not Jerry but here is his chart

    Attached Files Attached Files
    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  6. #6
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    Default Re: GFCI issue

    Here are the current AFCI and GFCI pages.

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

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    Default Re: GFCI issue

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    In a '96 townhome, I found the bathroom and exterior receptacle circuits fed by one breaker( incorrectly tapped as well). Both circuits receptacles are protected by a single GFCI installed under the panel.


    Should the bathroom and exterior receptacles each have their own GFCI circuit?

    The picture shows how the put both wires on one side which is wrong.

    Again, my main question is, the bathroom and ext receps need their own circuit and GFCI, correct?
    The requirement that bathrooms have their own 20A circuit & not serve loads outside of the bathroom(s) has only been in the last few code cycles. Correction 210.52(d) first appeared in the 1996 NEC, so it may have not been adopted at time of construction.

    Last edited by Rollie Meyers; 03-21-2011 at 07:12 AM. Reason: Spelling error

  8. #8
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: GFCI issue

    Why is a black insulated conductor terminated to the neutral bus ?


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    Default Re: GFCI issue

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    Unplugging breakers is not common for me. Never in an occupied house. This one was unoccupied.
    There are inspectors who won't remove a panel cover and you are pulling breakers. When people start talking about the Standard Of Care provided by inspectors in a localized area, I fall of my chair laughing.

    The NC licensing board mandatory training suggested home inspectors don Arc Flash resistent clothing head to toe, safety glasses and face shield, hard hat, leather gloves, hearing protection and EH rated foot wear to remove a panel cover. My guess is you are wearing cargo pants, a cotton shirt and maybe a ball cap when pulling breakers.

    Just curious, what do you hope to find by pulling the breakers?

    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  10. #10
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    Default Re: GFCI issue

    John, for a period of time AA was several cycles behind in the code adoption process. IIRC they were on the 93 until they adopted the 05, which I believe they are still under.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: GFCI issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    There are inspectors who won't remove a panel cover and you are pulling breakers. When people start talking about the Standard Of Care provided by inspectors in a localized area, I fall of my chair laughing.

    The NC licensing board mandatory training suggested home inspectors don Arc Flash resistent clothing head to toe, safety glasses and face shield, hard hat, leather gloves, hearing protection and EH rated foot wear to remove a panel cover. My guess is you are wearing cargo pants, a cotton shirt and maybe a ball cap when pulling breakers.

    Just curious, what do you hope to find by pulling the breakers?

    It was to verify the breaker is listed to hold more than one conductor. It's written on the side of some of them as it was on this particular one.

    Pulling breakers is easy. Its easier than pulling receptacles as some inspectors do. I'm aware its a risk but its a very small one. Its a small risk that I choose to take in order to provide accurate information to my clients.

    BTW, what chicken sh#t inspector would not pull the dead front cover? Thats a requirement in SOP in most places isn't it. It is in MD SOP as well as NAHI and ASHI.


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    Default Re: GFCI issue

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Frazee View Post
    Why is a black insulated conductor terminated to the neutral bus ?
    Doorbell transformer. Some of them have two black leads instead of a black and white. On the ones with double blacks, it doesn't matter which way they go. One goes to a hot connection and the other to the neutral bar.


  13. #13
    Roger Frazee's Avatar
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    Default Re: GFCI issue

    Quote Originally Posted by John Dirks Jr View Post
    Doorbell transformer. Some of them have two black leads instead of a black and white. On the ones with double blacks, it doesn't matter which way they go. One goes to a hot connection and the other to the neutral bar.
    Just wanted to make sure we didn't have some resourceful wiring going on ... I never liked installing the transformers that way but I understand it is quite common. I much prefer a junction box with a piece of nm back to the load center.


  14. #14
    Norm Grande's Avatar
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    Default Re: GFCI issue

    Code today wouldn't allow it, but when GFI's first came out, they were only available as a breaker, and the first code adoption in some areas allowed bathroom and outside receptacles to be on the same circuit. Your local electrician may have the answer, and certainly the Electrical Inspector that approved this application.
    I don't know enough about your area to know exactly, but in my area, this was the practice in the 80's. Hope that helps.
    Norm


  15. #15
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    Exclamation Re: GFCI issue

    Pulling breakers to see if they are rated for more than one circuit?
    I won't argue one way or the other.
    However, with Square D breakers you can easily see that they are are made to accept two wires
    Another however... the wires are not properly connected. Should have one on each side of the screw.


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