Thread: Sub panel question

Originally Posted by Patrick McCaffery

I find Jerry Peck to be one of the most knowledgeable persons responding to Post on this forum. Jerry’s comments are concise and informative. Constructive criticism is meant to help inform and makes for a better inspector. Being an Inspector, you need to be able to take criticism in all forms. I don’t believe that Jerry means any harm to the members of this forum.

It really does not matter how smart somebody is if all they do is talk like an ass to people an belittle them.

Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr.

"Main" as a derrivation of "Mains" or just "main" as in primary, or singular.

"Mains" is not a typo.

Service rated equipment versus service equipment.

One has to do with the quality/ratings/manufacture/sufficiency of the equipment, one has to do with the actual application (function, installation) of the equipment.

Distinctions with significant differences.

More fiber in the diet might help ya!

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Call a panel whatever you want as long as your client understands!

I call service equipment, main panels. I call downstream panels, sub-panels.
Everyone understands and life goes on. I really do not care what anyone else calls them, they are not paying me and I don't have to make them understand or happy!

+1

I don't put my reports together with electricans, plumbers, or HVAC pros in mind. I taylor my reports to the needs of the buyer. They are the ones who need to understand it. And I'm really not worried about what the pros in those fields think of my verbiage. As long as the client who is paying me understands, I've done my job.

If an electrician doesn't know what I'm saying, he's welcome to call me and I'll explain things. But since I don't get any calls like this, I think I'm doing OK.

Originally Posted by Mike O'Brien

It really does not matter how smart somebody is if all they do is talk like an ass to people an belittle them.

Trust me on this Mr. O'Brian, some people can't be embarrassed. Nothing you say will stop him from more of the same. I have been watching this forum for about two months and including myself, at least four people have told Peck that he is a rude individual. Considering I only view the threads that come in an e-mail, I would venture to guess there's a lot more than four and that's in the short time I have been watching. You'd think Peck owns this forum. And then there's the guys that defend Peck. They say he is too knowledgeable to ignore just because he insults them. Must make for a room full of strange people with Peck as the master of ceremonies.

I suggest that you find a building codes forum. There are a few of them out there with correct advice on code related issues and they would toss Peck and his BS attitude laughing at him all the way.

Originally Posted by Russel Ray

Out here I see electricians label the "main panel" and "sub panel" as -- gasp! -- "main panel" and "sub panel." I guess they do that for the home owners who consistently use the terms "main panel" and "sub panel." However, when I use the terms, I like to write "subpanel" so that it's clear that it is a panel secondary to the "main panel" and not a panel in a submarine. lol

I've never found a homeowner or didn't understand "main panel" and "subpanel." Now whether the homeowner could wire the darn things correctly is a different story.

I've also never found an electrician who didn't use, or understand, the terms "main panel" and "subpanel," especially when conversing with tthe public. A few years ago I inspected a 13,000-home that had one "main panel" and five "subpanels." One of the "subpanels" had issues that needed to be corrected, but in my report I inadvertently left out the location of that "subpanel." When the electrician called me, he asked, "Which subpanel? There are five of them here." I told him it was the one in the kitchen pantry. We had nary a problem conversing with each other.

Here is a "sub p. 2" labeled by the electrician. I can only presume that "sub p. 2" means that it is a second "sub panel."I think my presumption is pretty good since I found another "subpanel."

It would be better to label it Sub P 2 of 5....... That way I don't go looking for Sub P 6 .....

Originally Posted by Bill Anglin

Thank you all for your insight on this subject. Jerry you are a very intelligent person with a lot of knowledge in the field. If you could only cut out the BS of belittling whoever it is you are responding to. I wrote the comment about the submarine because of YOUR response to a past post. You had to throw in some snide comment about the panel being in a submarine for it to be a sub panel. This type of BS is not necessary. You start more arguments on this forum than anyone. YOU are the very reason I do not post as much as I would like to on this forum. Please sir take down my name and remember it. When I post in the future. Please do not respond. I would rather be wrong than read your responses. As a home inspector it is my job to find deficiencies and make recommendations. After a year now of reading your posts, I am confident in writing that there is evidence of severe psychological trauma. The subject feels it is necessary to put other people down in order to lift up himself. His main panel may not be wired correctly. I recommend further evaluation and repair as necessary by a qualified professional!

Nothing.... retracted.

Here is a link to a forum where you can find competent code advice. Building Code Message Board / Building, Plumbing, Energy, Mechanical, Fire, Accessibility and Electrical Code Forum Information

It is a free forum!

Compromise?

Call it a "Sub fed panel"

It may be a "remote" panel but it is fed with a "subfeed"

I don't in any way find this confusing.

The NEC uses the prefix "sub" many times but it is never, not even once, connected to the word "panel"

However, simply put, "Sub" means below, under or secondary.
— prefix
1. situated under or beneath
2. secondary in rank; subordinate
3. forming a subdivision or subordinate part of a whole

So while the NEC doesn't put the prefix "sub" before the word "panel" it still is in effect a sub fed panel, fed with a sub feed from the main panel and I have no problem with someone calling it a "subpanel"! I should probably edit this statement, to many loopholes in the subscript. Oh wait ...we could call it an "Underpanel"!

If it were to be installed on a "submarine" it would have to be called a sub subpanel! Oh and the door would have to seal...no screen allowed!

Yes...I am having fun with this! Hope you are too!

"can't we all just get along"?
Rodney King
1992

"That is the ONE AND ONLY place in the NEC which includes that term, and that term is used with industrial control panel, it is not used anywhere else in the NEC. That term is also NOT defined anywhere in the NEC.

And, in case you missed it, we are not discussing an industrial control panel.

I guess you missed it when Joe T. also stated that those terms were NOT used or defined in the NEC ... (sigh) "
__________________________________________________ ________________________

Neither the term subpanel or PANEL is defined in the NEC......

The proper NEC term is PANELBOARD, which IS defined

Originally Posted by Lou Romano

Compromise?

Call it a "Sub fed panel"

It may be a "remote" panel but it is fed with a "subfeed"

Lou,

"sub fed panel"

I have pointed out, on several previous occasions, that panels downstream from the service equipment and panels downstream from other panels are "sub fed panels" as those panels are sub fed from a breaker in the previous panel, but alas, that has been to no avail (or so it seems).

I can see neither of you read the last line of my comedic dissertation?

Relax guys...it's Sunday! We can all go back to fighting tomorrow!

http://www.frontlines247.com/frontli...c.asp?FaqID=54

For arguementitive purposes only and for the Canadian content portion..

Question Does the Ontario Electrical Safety Code permit the installation of a sub panel fed from the main panelboard? Answer Yes, the Code permits installation of a sub panel fed from the main panel. The feeder to the sub panel shall be protected either by correctly sized fuses or a circuit breaker in the main panel. If an existing main panel has no spare circuit positions, then one of the existing circuits such as the stove may have to be transferred to the new sub panel to make room for the sub panel breaker.

Ontario Electrical Safety Code 24th Edition/2009.

Originally Posted by Jimmy Roberts

I agree with Jerry. He cut through the backyard slang, and came right to the point with proper and accurate information. If you're offended by someone who uses proper terminology, then be offended. I bet the client prefers to read an inspection report that actually makes reference to the equipment terminology recognized by the industry. A person who learns from the information presented by Jerry and other people who actually do their homework, and don't make up off the wall names for what they're talking about, will become an actual professional grade HI. If you're above doing so... then remain ignorant, and bad mouth the people who provided you with proper information.

Okay to play devils advocate, I bet the client prefers to read an inspection report that the lay person can understand.

Its the same with doctors or lawyers. The common person will much more appreciate everyday language rather than terminology that they have no understanding of. I also would not expect my client to be readily cognizant of legal jargon, but would expect them to comprehend common everyday language.

Originally Posted by Marc M

"can't we all just get along"?
Rodney King
1992

Agreed.. We all have our pet peeves, JPs is sup panels, and we aint gonna change his mind

Well Dan to be politically correct it looks like both sides of the arguement have merit.

How do you feel about auxiliary panel?

Originally Posted by Raymond Wand

Well Dan to be politically correct it looks like both sides of the arguement have merit.

How do you feel about auxiliary panel?

I'm gonna keep using sub-panel, when my customers start thinking i'm talking about a submarine electical panel, I'll change it to auxiliary, sub-feeder, or the flavor of the day. .

Ok since you insist! Residential circuit breaker panels are NOT called panelboards, they are called loadcenters. Panelboards are commercial/industrial grade and rarely specified for use in residential.

Most permit applications where I am (Miami, Fl.) call all of the above switchboards. All the above are considered correct in terminology by the AHJ! Many city and county electrical inspectors call a sub fed panel a subpanel.

So regardless of whether you personally accept it, like it, agree or disagree the fact remains that it is an acceptable term within the trade and it describes a sub fed panel perfectly.

Wait a minute; my spell checker has a red line under panelboard, loadcenter and subpanel, so I guess none of those terms are acceptable?

Originally Posted by Lou Romano

Ok since you insist! Residential circuit breaker panels are NOT called panelboards, they are called loadcenters. Panelboards are commercial/industrial grade and rarely specified for use in residential.

Most permit applications where I am (Miami, Fl.) call all of the above switchboards. All the above are considered correct in terminology by the AHJ! Many city and county electrical inspectors call a sub fed panel a subpanel.

So regardless of whether you personally accept it, like it, agree or disagree the fact remains that it is an acceptable term within the trade and it describes a sub fed panel perfectly.

Wait a minute; my spell checker has a red line under panelboard, loadcenter and subpanel, so I guess none of those terms are acceptable?

UL & the NEC make no distinctions of panelboards & loadcenters they are both panelboards, "loadcenter" is a manfacturers discription.

Unless your looking in a catalog, there is no right or wrong in calling them a loadcenter or panelboard, unless you call a SQ D NQOB, or a GE A-Series panelboard a loadcenter.

Nick,

Pass the pop corn... I just ran out!!

Originally Posted by Don Matthews

Nick,

Pass the pop corn... I just ran out!!

Did any of them mention the fact of grandfather clause? I scrolled down here to catch up with the fact what ever code you quote doen't matter if it is of existing installation. (2002 NEC code) might not apply to this installation. secondly in fact of safety all conductors not in use should be disconnected and protected for exposure to prevent electrical current to come in contact from the electrical source.

sub panels/equipment disconnect require the neutral to be bonded from the early eighties, and the ground is landed to the enclosure by lug or bus bar.

Now if this panel is a square D homeline, it is newer than date mentioned, but my question is about the existing service that supply's this equipment and how it is bonded and what type of grounding protection is provided. now I seen mentioned a double ground rod required? that falls under an ohms test, if the earth electrical charge is not absorbed/displaced by the earth cotact of the electrode than yes a second electrode or even an electrode grid could be required, but alot of tht is determined from location and history of testing for this requirement.

we have 38 electrical fires an hour in the residential region, and electrical fires are the deadlies type of residential fires by average. so picking urguements about how any equipment is pronounced is mute, stick to the facts as to what is important to what makes the equipment safe for the client.

Wait a minute --- I was busy when this thread was going. Someone made a comment way up the line about how this was not the best forum. If it isn't, which one do you consider the best?

After reading these posts, most from Jerry, I am going to have one less email per week.

That is this one, there is too much bickering, to much belittleing by Jerry.

Sayonara.

Originally Posted by Peter Gilvarry

After reading these posts, most from Jerry, I am going to have one less email per week.

That is this one, there is too much bickering, to much belittleing by Jerry.

Sayonara.

I don't accept that Jerry belittles anyone. Now if you want to start a "I Must Have The Last Word" argument then expect the gloves to come off. There are or have been a fair number of people on this forum who seem to have to have the last word on any subject. Get two or more "last worders" on the same thread and that's when the show starts. It is comical when the last worders are arguing the same thing just using different terminology. I believe that's called semantics.

Like a lot of other folks here, when the melt-down starts, I just change the channel. I really try to be mature enough to avoid the school yard, "My dad's (fill in the blank) than yours!" fight.

I no longer use the term subpanel. I have been convinced by arguments presented here over the years to abandon the term. A case may be made for referring to it as a " subsequent panel" (i.e. subsequent to service equipment )
but that would be redundant so I would not make such a reference.

I appreciate all the knowledge that Jerry Peck has provided me over the years, even those times when it was ME being schooled on MY misunderstanding.
This forum will be diminished if Jerry stops posting.

Originally Posted by Peter Gilvarry

After reading these posts, most from Jerry, I am going to have one less email per week.

That is this one, there is too much bickering, to much belittleing by Jerry.

Sayonara.

I don't understand your reasoning. Jerry is one of 50 plus regular posters here.
If you are a home inspector and attended any events, or just talked to a group of other experienced inspectors you will find Jerry or anybody else that's been around will have a different opinion, and yes they will often be vocal about it.

If you want to see some bickering sign up to be a part of your state Lic board, or a member of a professional inspector association that gets involved in the associations business decisions.

If you want to see a chat board that belittles others, I would suggest joining the association where the owner, and his spokesperson on this site, belittles everyone here that doesn't pay, support or promote him

Originally Posted by Scott Patterson

Call a panel whatever you want as long as your client understands!

I call service equipment, main panels. I call downstream panels, sub-panels.
Everyone understands and life goes on. I really do not care what anyone else calls them, they are not paying me and I don't have to make them understand or happy!

Exactly, everyone understands, including electricians, what is meant by the term "sub panel."

We all generally can figure out what a post is referring to when the term "subpanel" is used.

In defense of Jerry he would like those in the HI field to be more exacting and professional in how they word their statements and questions. I can see a his point and can agree with him that in this forum which is predominately professional oriented, it would be something to strive for. Jerry's comments are more about raising the professional level of the forum than about being condescending.

In one sense the topic is beat to death, but in another it makes people more aware and introspective about the language that is used in reports. In life we all use slang terms that have come to be accepted in every day use. But that does not mean its correct, just accepted. If you get a group of like professionals together they usual speak in technical jargon that they all understand and in a manor that they were trained. HI training is laxed in many areas. The HI community is varied and still in its infancy. Home Inspectors with 25 years experience have been in the business but may not be of a real professional status. SOP of organizations proffer a base guideline and in some states make the SOP minimum a legal requirement, but following the SOP does not make the Home Inspector a true professional.

When discussing items with a non-professional it may be best to describe in a technically correct manor followed with a non technical description. By doing so you have covered you liability in the technical description and provided the client an understandable explanation.

You can be told that the sore place on your lip is a herpes virus or you could just call it a cold sore. A technically there is a difference in a roof rafter and a roof truss cord. We can speak in technical terms among ourselves and be definitive in terminology and understanding. Speaking with the non-professional a description in terms that they will understand is understandable. Arguing over technical and nontechnical word usage is non productive.

It may be that we will have to strive for true professionalism without making it a negative process.
It may be that we will need to ignore the slang uses of words and just respond in a technical and professional manor. Thereby raising ourselves to that level without obtuse discord over the terms used.

There are those on the forum who present their responses in an extremely technical and dry manor that is perceived as terse though, I believe, not intended that way. Many take offense to response which in fact may be a manor of incorrect inflection of how the response is read. Thus reading more into the response than was intended.

I will admit that I resisted and tweaked (in jest) the noise of some over the "subpanel" topic, trying to inject some humor that seem to have failed.

We all have our axes to grind and for one reason or another seem to be fixated on making jabs at some on this forum rather on some other Twitter or Blog site that may be more appropriate.

So how about agreeing to accept that there will be those that will use subpanel, sub-panel, sub panel or some other derivation in a post. But in response, to just speak in the technically correct terms in an effort to raise the discussion without fixating on an aspect of that discussion.

The more that the technically correct terms are used the sooner we all will be speaking on the same level with a clearer professional understand of each other.

Many have accepted the term "Subpanel" NJ permit application actually has an area for size of "Subpanel" being installed. It may noy be the correct term, but it is widely accepted.