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  1. #1
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    Default OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    HEY ALL

    found an outlet below sink in 1/2 bath. although gfci protected in master bath, this is wrong yes. i wrote it up as safety hazard. doing report so haven't checked code book

    your help appreciated

    cvf

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    I don't think there is a code that prohibits that.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Practical safeguarding. This is exposed, with out any shelf, sheild or overhang, (think drip edge) and is below the overflow rim of the pedestal sink, and the faucet and within radius of sink zone. Using the sink such as washing hands under direct stream from faucet can deflect spray to the wall which surface tension and gravity will direct downward. Use of this rceptacle would be no natural drip loop in appliance cord to user at sink, or item being energized would be set under the sink.

    Deteriorating agents. Cleaning the exposed outer, side, and underside of the china/ped sink - no distance separation (plumbing codes) to afford the safe actions of cleaning the fixture's outside without exposing the user to receptacle face. Cleaning of plumbing fixture space.

    Dedicated space. Clearance.

    Areas near bathroom fixtures are by nature at minimum a damp location, at thie pictured it could be a wet location. Note stopper to sink, and of a style likely to not have an overflow.

    Location if serving the required receptacle adjacent to sink is too low, and is not installed by exception for accessibility below a countertop (which overhangs the cabinet face and thereby the receptacle face) and therefore creates a separation or safeguarding.

    Plumbing and electrical.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-28-2011 at 05:46 PM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    FORGOT TO SAY--outlet is gfci protected in master bath , but i think it is a safety hazard, and wrote it up as such, think i did right

    cvf


  5. #5
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    FORGOT TO SAY--outlet is gfci protected in master bath , but i think it is a safety hazard, and wrote it up as such, think i did right

    cvf
    Right. You could bump your head on the sink trying to test that outlet. Be careful out there!

    I agree, it is a poor location, although the GFCI will pop if a cord gets wet, provided the GFCI doesn't become faulty. No harm in calling for it to be moved.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  6. #6
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Charlie,

    Is that THE receptacle outlet for that sink?

    Could be, and could be okay too. (Okay, but not necessarily a brilliant location.)

    From the 2008 NEC: (underlining and bold are mine)
    - (D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop, or installed on the side or face of the basin cabinet not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop.

    Charlie, my apologies for the following thread drift to H. G. ...

    Okay, H. G., tell me again why receptacles are not allowed in cabinet sides ... or wait, you still have not answered that, have you ... so, how does installing a receptacle in a BATHROOM cabinet differ from installing a receptacle in a KITCHEN cabinet?

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

  7. #7
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    I've seen receptacles located below the kitchen sink in cabinetry that is not GFCI protected and have seen soaked with water from leaking plumbing connections to hoses, faucets, vegetable sprayers........

    rick


  8. #8
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Chas,

    That wall mounted receptacle FACE is NOT in-plane with a wall adjacent to the basin/lavatory/fixture.

    There is no "communication" of that fixture, or a vanity (counter) top surface TO that wall containing receptacle. That receptacle is across, and faces the side of the basin and there is appreciable "non communicating" distance from that wall plane/receptacle face, (the "corner" is an intersection of different walls on different planes) - which is a different wall plane than that which is of the plumbing fixture - wall mounted or pedestal sink.

    adjacent: nearest in space or position, immediately adjoining without intervening space.

    Looks to be below (under) the basin flood rim. The receptacle photographed is NOT adjacent it is facing across the "side" of the basin, i.e. space between not adjacent the wall (receptacle) and the sink location from it's side. There is no vanity, there is no vanity (counter or otherwise) top. There is no overhanging edge, therefore no practical safeguarding of the electrical installation from the overflowing basin (basin has pop up and no overflow).

    The location itself is not okay. For a pedestal sink, the receptacle should be on the same (back) wall plane of the pedestal sink to one side or the other (adjacent). If accessibility needs bring lower, it (the receptacle and installation) should be practically safeguarded. Remove the stopping assembly or have an overflow for the sink.

    There is much more to any question than a singular partial quotation or section of an article. Chapter 1 applies. So does specifics in Chapter 3.

    Rick,

    Yep, as the countertop and sink frame is the "cover" practically safeguarding in theory. Just as the receptacle under the hydrotub or whirlpool or jet tub deck - serves as the guarding enclosure/guard. This receptacle face has no such guard or practical safeguarding.

    Jerry,

    Yet again, your off-topic cross-posting. And you're confusing "in" with "on" and "on" with "through". On (or upon, does not equal "in" or "through" as to location. Just as "adjacent" does not equal "across from".


    Regarding that OTHER thread - KEEP the off topic OFF, and GO BACK TO THE APPLICABLE THREAD. Try reading it. Try reading what was ACTUALLY said. Dare you use a search function and actually FIND the thread you carry on about? Try posting on IT. Receptacles are not mounted in flamable/combustible cabinet sides. Receptacles are installed in outlet (device) boxes which are then properly mounted and/or supported when they are fitted with the type cover plate which was displayed in the photo of your cross-topic stalking, continuing tirade/vendetta. Cabinet bases are cabinet bases, cabinet sides are cabinet sides. They are not walls. The Other post was discussing construction and code PRE-DATING 2008 Ed. NEC in a jurisdiction which does NOT utilize 2008 NEC and in fact has many references in sections of its code. If you go back and actually read what was actually said and keep in mind WHAT IS REQUIRED to secure and support an outlet box containing a receptacle...and what is required when in or upon a combustible/flamable (read wood, not tile, not gyp board, not plaster, not metal) perhaps THEN you'll be able to contain yourself, possibly already GET IT, otherwise continue THAT topic discussion on THAT topic thread.

    Seems you're "camping". Most of us don't chit where we eat.

    This is an inappropriately located (not "adjacent") wall receptacle for a wall mounted or pedestal sink in a powderroom/bathroom. There is no cabinet or vanity, or cabinet top communicating or adjacent to the receptacle, and the receptacle placement is NOT ADJACENT to the sink itself (NOT ON THE SAME WALL).

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-28-2011 at 09:59 PM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    The location meets the definition of adjacent and it is within the required distance for a receptacle. I see nothing about a wall "plane" anywhere in the requirements

    adjacentĖadjective 1 lying near, close, or contiguous; adjoining; neighboring: a motel adjacent to the highway.

    2008 NEC 210.50 (D) Bathrooms.
    In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop, or installed on the side or face of the basin cabinet not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop.


    The location of the pictured receptacle is subject to the same issues that one mounted below a basin in a cabinet side would be. Note that this specifically allowed by the NEC.

    Probably not the best place for a receptacle but calling for it to be moved is a bit much. I would suspect special needs had a bit to do with placement.

    As an aside for HG, note that a cabinet SIDE is specifically allowed. Maybe bathroom cabinets are different somehow?....................



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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    The location meets the definition of adjacent and it is within the required distance for a receptacle. I see nothing about a wall "plane" anywhere in the requirements

    adjacent–adjective 1 lying near, close, or contiguous; adjoining; neighboring: a motel adjacent to the highway.

    2008 NEC 210.50 (D) Bathrooms.
    In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop, or installed on the side or face of the basin cabinet not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop.


    The location of the pictured receptacle is subject to the same issues that one mounted below a basin in a cabinet side would be. Note that this specifically allowed by the NEC.

    Probably not the best place for a receptacle but calling for it to be moved is a bit much. I would suspect special needs had a bit to do with placement.

    As an aside for HG, note that a cabinet SIDE is specifically allowed. Maybe bathroom cabinets are different somehow?....................
    I agree with both Jerry and Bill. Here is a graphic to support it. Please note the half wall that is adjacent to the basin.



    While the wall would have a potential to get wet it does not meet the NEC definition of Location, Wet.

    Merriam-Webster definition for adjacent -nearby.

    Adjacent - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

    Last edited by Jim Port; 03-29-2011 at 08:28 AM. Reason: added definition
    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    frankly, reviving yet again the idiotic.

    Adjacent may or may not imply contact but always implies absence of anything of the same kind in between. The wall to which the sink is installed is inbetween the basin and the wall endpoint housing the receptacle.

    No part, surface, componant, etc. of the pictured basin, basin countertop, or non-existant cabinet makes any contact, connection, or has any "relationship" or "communication" with, nor abuts the wall containing the pictured receptacle. There is no adjoining, adjacency, conjoining, or connection between the basin and the "wall hosting" receptacle. There is an intervening space between the basin and the receptacle - there is no verbage which ALLOWS this - despite the "space" being less than 3 feet.

    Charlie's photo and description - THERE IS no freakin' bleepin' cabinet supporting the or in the vicinity of the dang sink and no top pictured in this bleepin' bathroom installation. The freakin' sink is not adjacent or adjoining the perpendicular wall surface with the pictured receptacle.

    Outdated and stupendous, muleish, borish, idiotic.

    Particular Code edition refers to particular dictionary edition. Free On-line is not, for example the Collegiate edition, nor the 13th edition of same, for example.

    Next, as the Code indicates, the multiple definitions are narrowed to the most appropriate and in context read up your chapter 1. Next not only electrical but plumbing and frankly regarding what is and is not the same wall - or adjacent to an item set to a wall plane - your positions are moronic.

    Obviously the use of the word "adjoining" adjoin, in both definitions has escaped you.

    Two wall (planes) of different directions, are not the same wall.

    Sadly some seem limited to the two-dimmensional in a three-dimmensional world.

    The wall surface containing the receptacle is NOT the wall ADJACENT or sharing the pedestal or wall hung sink. This sink does not and is not adjacent to the wall containing the receptacle. There is an intervening space.

    The perpendicular wall is not the same "wall" which adjoins or is adjacent to the sink. There IS an intervening SPACE. There is no adjoining or connection to the sink bearing surface requiring the receptacle.

    It IS NOT compliant, 1999, 2002 or otherwise.

    More than one Code section applies. Practical Safeguarding ALWAYS applies. More than just the NEC applies.

    Move the sink to the wall or partition containing the receptacle; Move the receptacle to the wall or partition containing/conjoining the sink;
    Replace the sink with a corner sink (abutting, installed upon/against the two wall planes): or install a cabinet/vanity sink and relocate the receptacle outlet accordingly, including installing the outlet enclosure according to code, including its secure installation and legal support thereof specifically regarding the material surface it is installed through, in, or upon.

    A wall or partition is not a cabinetry. Cabinetry is not a wall or partition.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 03-29-2011 at 09:19 AM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    From Article 100, bold by me.

    Scope.
    This article contains only those definitions essential
    to the proper application of this
    Code. It is not intended to
    include commonly de
    fined general terms or commonly defined
    technical terms from related codes and standards. In
    general, only those terms that are used in two or more
    articles are de
    fined in Article 100. Other definitions are
    included in the article in which they are used but may be
    referenced in Article 100.
    Part I of this article contains de
    finitions intended to
    apply wherever the terms are used throughout this
    Code.
    Part II contains de
    finitions applicable only to the parts of
    articles speci
    fically covering installations and equipment

    operating at over 600 volts, nominal.

    This Clintonesque stuff really derails so many topics. The adjacent was added so that the receptacle was installed near the point of use, not across the room.


    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    I agree that your posts on this thread are:
    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    frankly, reviving yet again the idiotic.

    Outdated and stupendous, muleish, borish, idiotic.


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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Looks like one man's opinion is exactly that - again.

    Now, about that cabinet side thing again...........


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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Kriegh View Post
    Looks like one man's opinion is exactly that - again.

    Now, about that cabinet side thing again...........
    Careful there Bill. We don't want PETA thinking someone is beating a dead horse.

    All answers based on unamended National Electrical codes.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Is ithe best location for outlet, no is it code compliant yes, since there is no counter or cabinet. I would recommend moving it.
    It is amazing that some on here are able to try and twist code sections to fit thier needs or opinions. The code does have some gray areas. Some are very clear.
    Can an outlet be place on the end,sides of an penisula or island, yes but the conductor need proper protection from damage and it has be loacated the proper distance from counter top.
    Some on here might think that 12-2 can not be run for a ac condenser that max circuit cb is 30. It can be done.
    I am not going debate the one on here that believes he is the all knowing and the wizard of everything.
    I will state that being a member on here I have learned about differnet issues.

    Many use the term subpanel, is the correct terminolgy, no but it has been used so long that evryone accepts it and knows what someone is talking about.
    When to get a cut do you ask for a bandaid or an adhesive strip. Bandaid is a registered name for J&J adhesive strip. But we laways ask for a bandaid, buy you might not get the J&J brand.

    Last edited by Guy W Opie; 03-31-2011 at 05:49 AM.

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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Charlie for what it is worth. you made the right call. we don't know the reason someone installed it there, or who is next going to be using it everyday. best to call it as an issue to be sorted out properly and have it moved vs something bad happening then having to answer for it. I wouldn't want to be the one getting a shock because I was over zealous washing up. you might not always find a code that fits but you should be always able to find your own words to fit what you need to say for the right reasons."it could be a saftey hazard why wait for something bad to happen before you do something about it" just my 2 cents worth.


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    Cool Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    A duplex receptacle located below a basin sink that is GFCI protected should have a weather proof cover over it. I would judge this location to
    be a damp location. No cover then I recommond the duplex rec. be raise to a height above the vainity.

    The above is just my thought and opinion. I can cite no code rule.


  19. #19
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Mattison View Post
    A duplex receptacle located below a basin sink that is GFCI protected should have a weather proof cover over it. I would judge this location to
    be a damp location. No cover then I recommond the duplex rec. be raise to a height above the vainity.

    The above is just my thought and opinion. I can cite no code rule.
    The weather proof cover will be defeated by the plug-in air freshener, or the charger for the toothbrush, or the blow dryer that never gets put away or a half a dozen other goofy devices people use in their bathrooms.
    #2 it would look stupid, like somebody made a mistake and tried to "cover" it.
    Cut a new hole above the sink, fish in some wire, no big deal to move it.

    John Kogel, RHI, BC HI Lic #47455
    www.allsafehome.ca

  20. #20
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    Cool Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Charlie I agree with John Kogel post, the current location for this bathroom
    duplex receptacle, is in a poor location, nor to easy for the occupant to use.

    If I were a buyer, this would be an issue to be discuss with the seller.
    And if I were the buyer and have young children, I would have this re-
    ceptacle move to higher ground, and install a tamper resistance
    GFCI duplex receptacle. I don't wouldn't want to go to another
    bathroom to reset power, what is that bathroom is occupy.

    But other then changing the current duplex receptacle over to tamper
    resistance type, I would advise only and let the buyer and seller work
    the differenence. Pershaps a little off the asking price to pay for and electrician to come in.


  21. #21
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Mattison View Post
    A duplex receptacle located below a basin sink that is GFCI protected should have a weather proof cover over it. I would judge this location to be a damp location.
    Every bathroom would then be considered a damp location as the receptacles in the wall near the sink would be even closer to the sink ... and you would write them up for not having a bubble-type cover?

    You would get a LOT of justifiable complaints on reporting that condition.

    To all: The location of that receptacle is an acceptable location as regards to meeting minimum code. When a pedestal basin is used, the receptacle location is going to be on the wall - the wall chosen could be in front of the pedestal basin (even closer to the water source) on the wall to the side of the pedestal basin, on a perpendicular wall as shown (installed higher than basin, or lower than the basin as shown).

    If you want the safest receptacle outlet location, then recommend a shop-type retractable receptacle on a cord which self-retracts when not needed, that way the receptacle will be up and out of the way when it is not needed ...

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
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    www.AskCodeMan.com

  22. #22
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    Cool Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Jerry, just want to give you a personal thanks for your most recent post.

    I new I get a responce from you with these posts of mind.

    But what I like about you, is how good you are at articulating facts that make your post so welcome.

    I now trust Charlie Van Fleet knows the answer is was seeking.



    "It not a debate when only one person shows up".


  23. #23
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Jerry, just want to give you a personal thanks for your most recent post.

    I knew I get a response from you with these posts of mind.

    But what I like about you, is how good you are at articulating facts that make your post so welcome.

    I now trust Charlie Van Fleet knows the answer is was seeking.



    "It not a debate when only one person shows up".[/quote]


  24. #24
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Iím fairly new to this forum however; I am compelled to comment due to the ridiculous and inane squabbling that continuously rears its ugly head between two particular participants.
    If the purpose of this forum is to educate individuals who endeavor in a profession that would be facilitated by such, we should not have to be exposed to immature ranting from the intellectually inept.
    If I were subjected to either of these individuals on my job site thereíd be fresh dirt in a remote location.
    Individuals that continue to bastardize the meaning of code references should take their disagreement to the playground where such inanity belongs.
    Any moment now, one of them will threaten to take their ball and go home if we donít want to adhere to their self aggrandizing construal of that which is written.
    All codes are subject to individual interpretation but these two take elucidation of the purpose of such to a whole new stratosphere.
    You, gentlemen, and I utilize that appellation for the purpose of maintaining a modicum of decorum, are precisely what gives inspectors of all manner a bad reputation.
    The objective of an inspector is to ensure adherence to the codes to provide a safe environment for the occupants of a property.
    It is not intended to give authority for individuals to invoke personal opinions nor grant one the bully pulpit to impose their desire for maniacal domination of all others associated within such a vocation.
    I am sincerely hopeful that both of you remain retired because my perception is that your attempts to be evocative are childish and exasperating.
    Find a diversion that better suits your loquacious verbosity and overwhelming desire to subject the rest of us to your soporific ranting.





  25. #25
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard D. Fornataro View Post
    Iím fairly new to this forum however...

    The objective of an inspector is to ensure adherence to the codes to provide a safe environment for the occupants of a property.
    No, not really. According to my state licensing laws a home inspection is to inspect the home for Safety and Habitability. Specifically states that a home inspection is NOT a code enforcement inspection.

    Certainly home inspectors should be familiar with code and use it as a basis to determine what is Safe and Habitable. But as has been discussed numerous times before, applying newer code to older homes is a challenging task. Some practices are inherently dangerous regardless of what code may have been at the time of construction or what it is currently. Not all safety issues or just plain stupid homeowner repairs can be possibly covered by codes.

    Yes, there are spirited discussions between posters. While it often becomes a pissing match, wading through all the diatribe will occasionally help you see the code references in a new light. There is an Ignore feature on this forum. You can apply Ignore to any poster and their replies/posts will no longer be displayed. Or you can just skip over their replies.

    Thanks for joining in. Look forward to more posts from you.


    "The Code is not a peak to reach but a foundation to build from."

  26. #26
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Ever pause to wonder WHY the receptacle was placed down there?

    ..... thinking intermission ......


    Electric codes are not the only codes that have changed over time. Back in the day, many baths had NO outlets - at most, a little shaver receptacle in the base of the sink lamp.

    What else was common back then? How about .... fire blocking at the mid-wall level? Or, even, just blocking to support the sink bolts.

    I suspect that the receptacle in the picture was a later addition, and the guy put it as high as he could without having to tear the whole wall apart.

    Lesson: Don't let 'best' become the enemy of 'good enough.'


  27. #27
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Ramsey View Post
    No, not really. According to my state licensing laws a home inspection is to inspect the home for Safety and Habitability. Specifically states that a home inspection is NOT a code enforcement inspection.

    Certainly home inspectors should be familiar with code and use it as a basis to determine what is Safe and Habitable. But as has been discussed numerous times before, applying newer code to older homes is a challenging task. Some practices are inherently dangerous regardless of what code may have been at the time of construction or what it is currently. Not all safety issues or just plain stupid homeowner repairs can be possibly covered by codes.

    Yes, there are spirited discussions between posters. While it often becomes a pissing match, wading through all the diatribe will occasionally help you see the code references in a new light. There is an Ignore feature on this forum. You can apply Ignore to any poster and their replies/posts will no longer be displayed. Or you can just skip over their replies.

    Thanks for joining in. Look forward to more posts from you.

    Bruce,

    I appreciate your comments and I understand that everyone is entitled to their opinion. It just seems that some people think their opinion is more entitled than others.

    I read forums like this to get a perception of what others encounter in the field. I happen to be an electrical inspector for a city of 1 million plus. I am also a Code Enforcement Officer as is required by my position. I am not allowed to interject personal opinion into my decisions. I have to be able to show HOW I got to whatever I cite. That is why seeing individuals read into code what is not there is troubling. It seems that some individuals go out of their way to find fault with SOMETHING. A good inspector does not necessarily have to find a problem to be doing their respective job. We should not offer legal arguments as if we were in a weekly television attorney drama.

    Additionally, I would like to elucidate that a majority of the inspections that I perform are for older properties. Considering today's economy and the hard economic times everyone is struggling to endeavor in, inspection of existing homes becomes particularily difficult. I am required to follow the New York State Residential Code, Appendix J, which specifically addresses Existing Properties. (There is a seperate code for Existing buildings.)

    One of the most difficult things to teach to a new inspector is how to apply code to existing property. As you pointed out, applying newer codes to existing homes is indeed a challenge. That is where the phrase "pre-existing, non-conforming" originates.

    I encounter inspectors on a diurnal basis that feel as if they HAVE to find something wrong to do their jobs appropriately. It is these inspectors that will bend over backwards to make something out of nothing.

    To that point I would like to comment...."There is nothing wrong with the installation that was the catalyst for this diatribe." In a perfect world, it's a terrible place for a receptacle, however: all this talk about susceptable to water being splashed on it, below the flood level of the sink, etc. is Bravo Sierra.

    If that receptacle were mounted above the sink, it would still be susceptable to splashing water. The point is therefore moot.

    It meets the intent and wording of the code as it pertains to the bathroom receptacle. Let's stop the whining and get back to what we are supposed to be doing.

    Thank you,

    Last edited by Richard D. Fornataro; 04-04-2011 at 01:27 PM. Reason: spelling

  28. #28
    gene schafer's Avatar
    gene schafer Guest

    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Although this is a lousy place to put an outlet and most agree it is not against code I would still put it in my report that this could be a safety issue, especially with small children and recommend it be moved to a proper location.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    It neither meets the language of the electrical code (any edition) nor the intent of the code (various ROPs and committee statements over the years regarding the language changes which have occurred, and those which were rejected at the time presented).

    There is no vanity cabinet or countertop, or extended top beyond the basin rim. The receptacle location on a perpendicular wall or partiion surface to a simple basin fixture, no cabinet, one-sided mounting, not a corner basin fixture, not an extended top fixture. This location is NOT adjacent to the basin. There is no cabinetry present.

    Clearance to safely use, and clean the plumbing fixture has nothing to do with the NEC. Colorado USED to use Uniform Code for plumbing. Now they use plumbing chapters of IRC. We don't know HOW old the HOME in question is - only that it has a new sink and faucet in the 1/2 bath pictured.

    You really need to stick to one edition of the code if you're going to get into a code discussion, and that would be the edition as amended and adopted at the time of origial construction - IF that is the applied standard for the jurisiction regarding existing structures, when you're going to justify something you see in an existing home - and claim there is no Home Inspection issue worthy of reporting.

    The J.P.s keep referring but not actually participating in discussion ON a particular thread which was based on an existing kitchen situation in chicago.

    Now they want to apply language from 2008 to an existing structure in colorado which has had a modification to a powderroom.

    First we should keep in mind just where the language comes from and came from in 210.52(D), 406.8(C) (was 410-57(c)), 210.11(C)(3), etc. and know that it what was once a complicated set of exceptions and special premissions changed in more recent editions.

    Then ask yourself WHY. Why is due to other changes IN THOSE EDITIONS regarding what was required. Changes in defintions, conditions of environments extending to the unsealed device boxes, conduits, wiring within; changes in panels, changes in grounding and bonding requirments, changes in a lot of things.

    The lower elevations for receptacles, especially in bathrooms and kitchens where required to serve countertops, or bathroom basins are a relatively NEW thing, previously allowed only with special permission and specific condtions. The electric code did not always read thusly.

    Then look again at the receptacle and sink arrangement. Note the receptacle is not recessed, but is surface mounted. Note it is not a locking type receptacle. Note it is not a tamper resistant type receptacle. Note that it is not a weather resistant type receptacle.

    Note the cover plate is not flush - you see gaps to the wall surface and no gasket - it is singularly mounted.

    We apparently know that receptacle(s) ELSEWHERE in the home (specifically the master bathroom receptacle(s)) are GFCI protected.
    Chas told is this twice, and indicated that the receptacle location in the master bath was GFCI protected, apparently by a combination gfci/receptacle.

    However, Chas has NOT indicated THIS receptacle is GFCI protected. It appears to be a standard 15A non-locking type, grounding receptacle, neither TR nor WR. It is obviously not a combination GFCI/receptacle.

    What Chas has NOT indicated I believe to be critical.

    He has not indicated that this outlet is gfci protected. He has not indicated that this 1/2 bath is supplied load side of the gfci protected receptacle in the master bathroom. He has not indicated if this receptacle is on the same circuit as the receptacle in the master bathroom, and he has not indicated if this receptacle outlet is LINE SIDE of gfci protection.

    This china sink will require cleaning on its exterior. There is visable a pop-up type stopper, and no overflow.

    Protection from deteriorating agents, prevention of water or other entering the face of the receptacle, washing down or collecting upon its face (especially while something is plugged in), or entering and making contact with unprotected load side conductors is a problem.

    It is a minor thing indeed to inset a device box and a receptacle installation.

    The sink pictured is obviously not original, neither was the receptacle location/elevation.

    Likely the old sink was upon or a part of a surface beyond the basin edge and upon a vanity. More than likely the pictured is not the original location or installation condition of this receptacle. One wonders if there is a towel ring above. .

    Home Inspection is not code inspection.

    Chas did the right thing, he viewed something as a safety issue and he called it out in his report.

    Residential bathrooms, and those in dormatories, hotel rooms, etc. are considered to be places where it is likely to have wetness/dampness in other than the insides of fixtures upon occasion.

    If there is any unprotected current carring conductors in that device box it should be relocated or protected before entering that device box. The installation for the receptacle is not correct or safe. Practical safeguarding not present. Location and equipment selection allows deteriorating agents to effect equipment.
    Most importantly there should be GFCI protection for the protection of people. We do not know if the supply to this receptacle is protected - Chas never said it was. In a location such as pictured there should be no unprotected conductors entering or leaving this box, it should be protected line side of this box.

    HI is not code inspection. HI is not technical inspection.

    The unammended NEC is an ANSI standard. It (the NEC) actually defers to other STANDARDS. Workmanship is actually addressed by ANSI Standards. The plumbing codes also address this.

    This is just as significant as the six foot rules past and present regarding sinks, the protection from flood rim overflow requiring not only GFCI but a separation, barrier, enclosure, etc. to divert/protect.

    Anything plugged in to this receptacle while the sink is in use would be subject (the cord cap/blades) to dribbles, sprays, and possible sprinkling or water washing down. Chas saw the big picture, and called out the overall multi-factor safety concerns and called it out. GOOD FOR HIM.

    Last edited by H.G. Watson, Sr.; 04-04-2011 at 05:11 PM.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    richard

    great words there--tell me they are not usual words in your life--like to keep the dictonary words away from my clients, hope you don't use them in your reports. H.G---yes gfci protected, as most bathrooms, one bathroom has the controlling gfci and i explained that in report --this was in the second floor bath.
    i feel comfortable with how i wrote report. and would do the same again

    good luck to all

    lets put this to bed

    chas


  31. #31
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard D. Fornataro View Post
    Iím fairly new to this forum however; I am compelled to comment due to the ridiculous and inane squabbling that continuously rears its ugly head between two particular participants.
    If the purpose of this forum is to educate individuals who endeavor in a profession that would be facilitated by such, we should not have to be exposed to immature ranting from the intellectually inept.
    One friggin' post and you use that to do precisely what you are a bitchin' 'bout?

    Your first post, and even your second post, sure did add to this forum.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  32. #32
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Gentlemen,

    Keep up the good work. I'm sure no one else finds your protracted observations to be a waste of time.

    Bottom line is, point out what you want in your report.

    No matter how much BS you can conjure up, you have no authority to compel anyone to to anything about the receptacle in question.

    Pre-existing, non-conforming.

    Of course I would like to see the receptacle in question be both GFCI protected and located in a more accessible and therefore utile location but I wouldn't neccessarily reinvent the wheel to prove my point.

    I will choose to look elsewhere for informative content since this forum seems to be dominated by individuals who should be wrriting the next law school movie of the week.

    Last edited by Richard D. Fornataro; 04-05-2011 at 06:24 AM. Reason: spelling

  33. #33
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Quote Originally Posted by H.G. Watson, Sr. View Post
    There is no vanity cabinet or countertop, or extended top beyond the basin rim. The receptacle location on a perpendicular wall or partiion surface to a simple basin fixture, no cabinet, one-sided mounting, not a corner basin fixture, not an extended top fixture. This location is NOT adjacent to the basin. There is no cabinetry present.
    (sigh)

    No cabinetry is required, only a basin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    From the 2008 NEC: (underlining and bold are mine)
    - (D) Bathrooms. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed in bathrooms within 900 mm (3 ft) of the outside edge of each basin. The receptacle outlet shall be located on a wall or partition that is adjacent to the basin or basin countertop, or installed on the side or face of the basin cabinet not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop.
    Then there is this - still no answer from H. G.:
    Okay, H. G., tell me again why receptacles are not allowed in cabinet sides ... or wait, you still have not answered that, have you ... so, how does installing a receptacle in a BATHROOM cabinet differ from installing a receptacle in a KITCHEN cabinet?


    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  34. #34
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    JERRY

    please this was my thread-let it end--i did what i did with my report and feel good about it. thanks for your help and input

    peace on earth

    cvf


  35. #35
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARLIE VAN FLEET View Post
    JERRY

    please this was my thread-let it end--i did what i did with my report and feel good about it. thanks for your help and input

    peace on earth

    cvf
    Charlie,

    As you wish, I just did not want it to end with mis-information.

    This is it for me on this thread.

    Jerry Peck, Construction / Litigation Consultant
    Construction Litigation Consultants, LLC ( www.ConstructionLitigationConsultants.com )
    www.AskCodeMan.com

  36. #36
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    This is it for me on this thread.

    Just when I was getting interested.

    ' correct a wise man and you gain a friend... correct a fool and he'll bloody your nose'.

  37. #37
    dana1028's Avatar
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    Default Re: OUTLET BELOW BATHROOM SINK

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Peck View Post
    Every bathroom would then be considered a damp location as the receptacles in the wall near the sink would be even closer to the sink ... and you would write them up for not having a bubble-type cover?

    You would get a LOT of justifiable complaints on reporting that condition.

    To all: The location of that receptacle is an acceptable location as regards to meeting minimum code. When a pedestal basin is used, the receptacle location is going to be on the wall - the wall chosen could be in front of the pedestal basin (even closer to the water source) on the wall to the side of the pedestal basin, on a perpendicular wall as shown (installed higher than basin, or lower than the basin as shown).

    If you want the safest receptacle outlet location, then recommend a shop-type retractable receptacle on a cord which self-retracts when not needed, that way the receptacle will be up and out of the way when it is not needed ...
    Bite my tongue!! I agree with Jerry 100%.


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