Thread: hot tub panel

hi in a sub panel for the hot tub connections is the code the same as for a subpanel indoors as far as neutral and ground(bonding) must be seperated, see pic

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Based on the limited view of the panel I would say that it is 240 volt only. I do not believe you are looking at a neutral sharing the buss with a ground. It appears that the feeder is a 2 wire + ground and the white has not been re-identified as a hot conductor. The enclosure does not appear to be bonded.

Any panel downstream of the service equipment needs the neutrals isolated from the grounding conductors, regardless of location under the newer code revisions. Older codes did allow a 3 wire feeder to a DEtached structure and the neutral was again bonded to ground. There could be no other metallic paths between the buildings. If a metallic path like a phone line ran between the two building you still needed a 4 wire feeder.

Originally Posted by Tony Vargas

hi in a sub panel for the hot tub connections is the code the same as for a subpanel indoors as far as neutral and ground(bonding) must be seperated, see pic

Panelboards that are not a part of the service equipment, and that supply any electrical equipment associated with the specified body of water.

I'm seeing a 30/50/30 and a solid bare copper, and you've referenced a "hot tub", so already I'm concerned. Where is the GFCI protection.

No; and maybe, it depends; and Special Provisions.

Don't like what you've pictured, not one bit. Many concerns, however limited information provided don't care to start off with a laundry list on ambiguousness. We have no idea the vintage of the equipment, the installation, etc.

Of course you've been unclear as to whether or not the "hot tub" packaged or otherwise is actually indoors or outdoors, and apparently we're to assume, and when it comes to 680 I prefer not to.

See Chapter 3; Parts V, VI and VII of 2008 NEC Article 250; 680.6 (especially 7), and frankly review all of Article 680; for starters - begin first with a review of the Article Definitions.

See:
Packaged Spa or Hot Tub Equipment Assembly,
Self-Contained Spa or Hot Tub,
and
Spa or Hot Tub.

See also:
Equipment, Fixed,
Equipment, Portable,
and
Equipment, Stationary.

When you've first determined what you have, you can next determine what the Code requires, which includes provisions from the Manufacturer(s) AND also requirements under the parameters of the UL Standard(s) for its Listing provisions.


Tony Vargas, you haven't introduced yourself, and you've posted several questions already since you joined this month, and there isn't any information on your profile.

Are you a student? Just starting out? Doing practice inspections?

Without seeing the whole picture it looks to me like the hot tub also requires a 110 circuit to operate (timer,heater, whatever) and the non-electrician installer took the neutral from the ground connection.

My comments if that were my inspection:

1. Neutral bar is being used as the grounding bar.
2. Identify the white wire with red tape to indicate 2nd phase.
3. 3 wire circuit with a ground is required for this application. Add a neutral wire and connect to neutral bus bar.
4. Add a separate single pole breaker for the 110-volt cicuit.
5. Grounds shall be isolated from neutrals on separate grounding bar attached to panel.

I think that's it. In short, get a qualified electrician to fix that mess.

Both of the breakers in use are 240 volt. It is quite possible that the tub does not require a neutral.

Note, almost all residential systems are a single phase consisting of 2 hot legs, not phases.

All the hot tubs I have wired (20 or so) required a 30, 40, 50, 60 amp GFCI breaker. Is there are GCFI breaker somewhere else in the circuit?

Thanks for all your help guys

There is no neutral landed in this panel! If this is a built in spa it may not require it, but the panel still is required to have a neutral landed in it and the breaker feeding the spa needs to be GFCI.

Also if this feeds a portable spa tub it surely has a GFCI receptacle in it and requires a neutral. I have never seen a portable spa that did not have a GFCI receptacle factory installed.

Originally Posted by Tony Vargas

hi in a sub panel for the hot tub connections is the code the same as for a subpanel indoors as far as neutral and ground(bonding) must be seperated, see pic

Yep, keep 'em separate. Remember, the neutral is a current-carrying conductor. The ground wire should not be carrying current under normal operating conditions.

Thanks glen